Reasons why German style games are appealing...
richar...@hotmail.com
for the appeal of German games. I think that German games, for the
most part, bear these traits and are appealing for it:
* Low complexity rules. This means that the game is teachable to
people in a relatively short period of time. The simplier the rules,
the more likely someone is willing to take a risk on a game.
* Playable in under 2 hours. This means that the game is more likely
to be played more often. As someone said last night at someone's house
while gaming, "Only with a German game can you get 2 games in in around
3 hours".
* A game theme. It is often linked to the play mechanics. This gives
someone who likes to fantasize while playing something to do when
playing. German games have the unique ability to introduce abstract
strategy games to the masses, because of the theme attached, that the
typical American abstract strategy game fails to do.
* Utilize new and old game mechanics in such a way that the experience
of each game is unique. Almost all of the games avoid the trap
of "Ameritrash" games where you move around a track "Parchesi" style as
dictated by dice rolls. I think Midnight Party has this method, but
even that does weird things with this game mechanic.
* Not dominated by luck (there are exceptions of course to this). A
game governed is fine if you are playing with children, or people who
don't care about using skill to win. But, for a more hardcore gamer,
it is essential that there is needed skill to win.
* Wooden pieces/quality components. The quality of the game, its
artwork and general sturdiness of the parts, makes the game appealing
to both gamers and non-gamers.
The low complexity, having a theme, and short playing game is able to
hold the interest of non-gamers. Try springing a 5 hour gaming
marathon with a non-gamer (I say 5 hours and marathon, simply because
that is how a non-gamer would view it).
The reduced luck element and unique gaming experience in each game
leads holds the interest of more hardcore gamers.
Well, my 2 cents on it.
- Richard Hutnik
--
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support and opponent finding for obscure/orphan games at:
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Before you buy.
Steffan O'Sullivan
>* Low complexity rules.
Agreed.
>* Playable in under 2 hours.
Agreed.
>* A game theme. It is often linked to the play mechanics. This gives
>someone who likes to fantasize while playing something to do when
>playing. German games have the unique ability to introduce abstract
>strategy games to the masses, because of the theme attached, that the
>typical American abstract strategy game fails to do.
This one, however, I find absurd. It is a rare German game that has a
theme strong enough to disguise the abstract nature of the game.
Settlers comes to mind as a German game that does have a strong theme,
but I can think of ten that don't for every one that does.
>* Utilize new and old game mechanics in such a way that the experience
>of each game is unique.
Mmmm - to an extent, yes.
>* Not dominated by luck (there are exceptions of course to this).
Agreed to both statements.
>* Wooden pieces/quality components.
Yep, it's true.
--
Steffan O'Sullivan gr...@groo.com Plymouth, NH, USA
------------------------ http://www.io.com/~sos -----------------------
"All history is made up. Good history is made up by good historians;
bad history is made up by the others." -David Macaulay
David Bernazzani
>* Low complexity rules. This means that the game is teachable to
>people in a relatively short period of time. The simplier the rules,
>the more likely someone is willing to take a risk on a game.
Mostly agree. Some rules *can* be complex but usually they are good
quality. The Rio Grande rules are top-notch IMHO.
>* Playable in under 2 hours. This means that the game is more likely
>to be played more often. As someone said last night at someone's house
>while gaming, "Only with a German game can you get 2 games in in around
>3 hours".
True, however a good game of Scrabble, Chess or Go (all non-german) is
under 2 hours for me. Many CCGs (I played Magic for some time) are
also played in 30-60 minutes.
>* A game theme. It is often linked to the play mechanics. This gives
>someone who likes to fantasize while playing something to do when
>playing. German games have the unique ability to introduce abstract
>strategy games to the masses, because of the theme attached, that the
>typical American abstract strategy game fails to do.
Hmmm... These games do have "apparent" themes but most are thin.
Doesn't bother me as I'm not overly fond of specific themes - only
game play mechanics. Still, the apparenet themes are very nice to
hook some gamers and I do enjoy having *some* theme pasted on the
game.
>* Utilize new and old game mechanics in such a way that the experience
>of each game is unique. Almost all of the games avoid the trap
>of "Ameritrash" games where you move around a track "Parchesi" style as
>dictated by dice rolls. I think Midnight Party has this method, but
>even that does weird things with this game mechanic.
Agreed.
>* Not dominated by luck (there are exceptions of course to this). A
>game governed is fine if you are playing with children, or people who
>don't care about using skill to win. But, for a more hardcore gamer,
>it is essential that there is needed skill to win.
Agreed.
>* Wooden pieces/quality components. The quality of the game, its
>artwork and general sturdiness of the parts, makes the game appealing
>to both gamers and non-gamers.
Agreed.
Fine post!
- Dave Bernazzani
db...@gis.net
http://www.gis.net/~dber (South Shore Gamers Association)
Graham Wills
> The previous "Ameritrash" post by myself and others, touched on reasons
> for the appeal of German games. I think that German games, for the
> most part, bear these traits and are appealing for it:
As a statistician, I ahve to ask myself first if you are actually
correct
in the premise. Are german style games appealing? An alternative
explanation might simply be that there are just a huge number of them
and so, even if they are no better than other games, the best games
are likely of this style.
In other words, if you were to play 5 randomly chosen German
games and 5 randomly chose American games, which set are you
more likely to prefer? Here's Wizards of the Coats line up, as an
example of a US company, with games I like marked.
* Guillotine
AlphaBlitz
Pivot
Twitch
Go Wild!
Earthquake
Instinct
* The Great Dalmuti
* RoboRally
What Were You ...
Filthy Rich
3/11. Not bad. I think that'd be a hard mark for German games
to live up to...
-Graham
--
Graham Wills Data Visualization, Bell Labs
gwi...@research.bell-labs.com +1 (630) 979 7338
http://www.bell-labs.com/~gwills Silk for Calde!
Geenius at Wrok
> * Low complexity rules. This means that the game is teachable to
> people in a relatively short period of time. The simplier the rules,
> the more likely someone is willing to take a risk on a game.
You can't overrate the importance of this factor. Every time I trot out a
new game, my fellow players -- who know me all too well -- get these tense
little looks on their faces as I begin to read the rules. When I'm
finished, there's always an audible sigh of relief that I'm done reading
so soon.
The average nongamer hits mental saturation point after about two
unillustrated or four heavily illustrated 8½-by-11 pages of rules.
> * Not dominated by luck (there are exceptions of course to this). A
> game governed is fine if you are playing with children, or people who
> don't care about using skill to win. But, for a more hardcore gamer,
> it is essential that there is needed skill to win.
On the other hand, the nongamer needs a luck element for reassurance that
he has a fighting chance. My wife will not play any game unless she
thinks I can be beaten at it. :-)
--
"I wish EVERY day could be a shearing festival!" -- The 10 Commandments
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Keith Ammann is gee...@albany.net "I notice you have a cloud of doom.
Live with honor, endure with grace I must admit it makes you seem
www.albany.net/~geenius * Lun Yu 2:24 dangerous and sexy."
Glenn Kuntz
>The previous "Ameritrash" post by myself and others, touched on reasons
>for the appeal of German games. I think that German games, for the
>most part, bear these traits and are appealing for it:
>
>people in a relatively short period of time. The simplier the rules,
>the more likely someone is willing to take a risk on a game.
Seems to me that many (most?) of the "Ameritrash" games you
loathe also fall into this category of low complexity.
>* Playable in under 2 hours. This means that the game is more likely
>to be played more often. As someone said last night at someone's house
>while gaming, "Only with a German game can you get 2 games in in around
>3 hours".
Seems to me that many (most?) of the "Ameritrash" games also
fall into this category of playing time.
>* A game theme. It is often linked to the play mechanics. This gives
>someone who likes to fantasize while playing something to do when
>playing. German games have the unique ability to introduce abstract
>strategy games to the masses, because of the theme attached, that the
>typical American abstract strategy game fails to do.
That sounds a little (to me) like "Hollywood has the unique
ability to introduce books to the masses, because of the motion
pictures & sounds attached, that the typical book fails to do."
I think if you dig a bit further, you'll find that both German
& American companies produce good & not-so-good games with and
without themes. In many cases, the theme adds a lot to the
experience; in others, it's little more than fluff.
So, are you suggesting that American abstract strategy games
would become "better" if themes were attached to them? That
this would solve the problem as you see it?
>* Utilize new and old game mechanics in such a way that the experience
>of each game is unique. Almost all of the games avoid the trap
>of "Ameritrash" games where you move around a track "Parchesi" style as
>dictated by dice rolls. I think Midnight Party has this method, but
>even that does weird things with this game mechanic.
No offense Richard, but this one makes me laugh because of the
irony (nothing personal) of the example. You're berating
"Ameritrash" games for lack of theme and the rut of circuit
track movement, yet the example you give is one of the world's
oldest non-themed games from a completely different culture
and era. (And incidentally, one that *has* had numerous themes
applied to it as a marketing ploy... in America! ;-)
Admittedly, I'm not heavily into most strategy games, but I'm
not unfamiliar with them either. But I haven't played (or
even *seen*) an American-style boardgame with a circuit track
since T.P. in the early '80s, and even that had some
new/different mechanics at the time.
I agree with you that the German games have *something* going
for them in the area of innovation, but I can't agree that they
have a monopoly on each game being unique. Most of the games
in *my* game closet are American (and you'll have to believe me
on this point,) and they are all dissimilar to each other
(unique?) in play experience. Maybe I'm just selective? ;-)
>* Not dominated by luck (there are exceptions of course to this). A
>game governed is fine if you are playing with children, or people who
>don't care about using skill to win. But, for a more hardcore gamer,
>it is essential that there is needed skill to win.
I agree with the last statement in this paragraph, but disagree
with the first. IME with the dozen or so German games I have
played, I see no difference between German & American games in
this respect. YMMV.
>* Wooden pieces/quality components. The quality of the game, its
>artwork and general sturdiness of the parts, makes the game appealing
>to both gamers and non-gamers.
Now this point I'm pretty much in total agreement with. I'd be
willing to pay a few bucks more for a game for an improvement
in component quality. But I have to wonder if this isn't also
a marketing thing. German games are (IMO) marketed to a
different "mindset" of consumer than "Ameritrash" games. The
"German game consumer" (regardless of his/her
nationality/location) might be more discriminating about
something like this than J.Q. Public shopping TRU for a gift.
<snip>
>Well, my 2 cents on it.
>- Richard Hutnik
The reasons you state why German games are appealing are true -
I just don't see that they are all that unique to German games.
Now we're up to 4 cents... ;-)
--
The CROKINOLE Board
http://www.frontiernet.net/~crokinol
richar...@hotmail.com
Graham Wills <gwi...@research.bell-labs.com> wrote:
> As a statistician, I ahve to ask myself first if you are actually
> correct
> in the premise. Are german style games appealing? An alternative
> explanation might simply be that there are just a huge number of them
> and so, even if they are no better than other games, the best games
> are likely of this style.
pretty much available here in the United States. The American
independent publisher produce a lot of games also, so I don't think it
is the sheer number of games out there. There is a distinct feel to
German games, with attributed I described in my post. A problem with
the American game producers is that don't get the distribution German
games get, as odd as this may seem.
Also, as another example of the quality of German games, is that I
will look toward the Games 100 the past few years. Non-American games
are getting a bigger and bigger bulk of the boardgame awards, with
Torres winning game of the year.
> In other words, if you were to play 5 randomly chosen German
> games and 5 randomly chose American games, which set are you
> more likely to prefer? Here's Wizards of the Coats line up, as an
> example of a US company, with games I like marked.
I will look into these. Most of which I have, or had, and most of
which consider inferior to a batch of German games.
> * Guillotine
This game is now out of my collection. It is "Family Business" but
with less interaction between players. This game is not exactly a high
point in hardcore gaming. It has a fun theme though, which makes it a
nice filler game. "Oh Piss Boy!" :-P
> AlphaBlitz
I tried this game, and it is ok, if you like word games.
> Pivot
A game on par with what Hasbro or Mattel puts out. No great shakes.
> Twitch
Similar to Pivot. Marginal skill at best. Ok if you want a quick
reflex game. Not a high point in game design.
> Go Wild!
Kind of a clever trick taking game, but marginal.
> Earthquake
Clever game. I will break this game out with non-gamers, but not
exactly a high point in being a game for hardcore gamers.
> Instinct
This is the American version of Canyon. Both are Oh Hell! variants
with a twist. I haven't gotten to playing it yet, although I own it.
> * The Great Dalmuti
Take Asshole/President/Boss and tweak it so that it is more
balanced. It is a Richard Garfield game. I consider Garfield a good
game designer. Maybe on par with Sid Sackson.
> * RoboRally
Good design. Suffers from breakaway leader syndrom though.
> What Were You ...
... Thinking.
Please tell me it is more that just another game in a long line
Trivial Pursuitish party games.
> Filthy Rich
An even more luck ridden game than Settlers is. I will leave people
here to decide on it.
> 3/11. Not bad. I think that'd be a hard mark for German games
> to live up to...
My take on it is that German games, for the most part, crush these
games. How many German games have you played?
richar...@hotmail.com
Glenn Kuntz <crok...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
I was saying German games, as a rule, have ALL these elements to them,
and that is what makes them appealing. American games often are
missing one or more of these elements.
> >* Low complexity rules. This means that the game is teachable to
> >people in a relatively short period of time. The simplier the rules,
> >the more likely someone is willing to take a risk on a game.
>
> Seems to me that many (most?) of the "Ameritrash" games you
> loathe also fall into this category of low complexity.
The American game style game that is missing this is typically the
usual wargame that gets released. Compare Vinci to the likes of Age of
Renaissance to see what I mean.
> Seems to me that many (most?) of the "Ameritrash" games also
> fall into this category of playing time.
Yes, but there is a brand of gaming from America, the hardcore
strategy game, that goes over the 2 hour time limit.
> That sounds a little (to me) like "Hollywood has the unique
> ability to introduce books to the masses, because of the motion
> pictures & sounds attached, that the typical book fails to do."
Well, the theme comment is addressing the type of American game
known as "abstract strategy games". They are themeless games that are
low complexity and playable in under 2 hours. However, the problem is
that, because they are themeless, non-gamers go "ick" and can't
relate. They are missing a level of "chrome" that captivates a gamer.
> I think if you dig a bit further, you'll find that both German
> & American companies produce good & not-so-good games with and
> without themes. In many cases, the theme adds a lot to the
> experience; in others, it's little more than fluff.
When I say "Ameritrash" I am not saying ALL games from America suck.
Just like "Eurotrash" doesn't mean that all things from Europe suck.
> So, are you suggesting that American abstract strategy games
> would become "better" if themes were attached to them? That
> this would solve the problem as you see it?
Dursh Die Wurst is more appealing because of the little camels to
captivate the mind of someone playing. It could quite as easily work
as a purely abstract strategy game without a theme, but be less
appealing.
> No offense Richard, but this one makes me laugh because of the
> irony (nothing personal) of the example. You're berating
> "Ameritrash" games for lack of theme and the rut of circuit
> track movement, yet the example you give is one of the world's
> oldest non-themed games from a completely different culture
> and era. (And incidentally, one that *has* had numerous themes
> applied to it as a marketing ploy... in America! ;-)
I am just saying that the mainstream gaming in America beats same
old play mechanics over and over. Slap a new theme on the same old
game mechanics is what is done in the mainstream. My berating, by the
way, is that the ball is dropped in one or more of the things I have
listed. It may have new game mechanics, but totally blow it on the
theme. It may be intellectually captivating, but either have a lot of
rules, or go over 2 hours in length or both.
> Admittedly, I'm not heavily into most strategy games, but I'm
> not unfamiliar with them either. But I haven't played (or
> even *seen*) an American-style boardgame with a circuit track
> since T.P. in the early '80s, and even that had some
> new/different mechanics at the time.
The Monopoly games? The Trivia games? Sorry? Parchesi? Chutes
and Ladders? Or, you have a game with a start and finish, and not
circular.
> I agree with you that the German games have *something* going
> for them in the area of innovation, but I can't agree that they
> have a monopoly on each game being unique. Most of the games
> in *my* game closet are American (and you'll have to believe me
> on this point,) and they are all dissimilar to each other
> (unique?) in play experience. Maybe I'm just selective? ;-)
I am not saying there are ZERO innovative American designers out
there, and ZERO games with innovation come from America. I have a
batch of American games (a majority of my games are American design).
Just, I think in recent years that the innovations in design are coming
out of Europe, and the bulk of my purchases are games from Europe
(mostly Germany).
> I agree with the last statement in this paragraph, but disagree
> with the first. IME with the dozen or so German games I have
> played, I see no difference between German & American games in
> this respect. YMMV.
Ok, to phrase it this way. In lower complexity game, German games
are less likely to be dominated by luck than American games.
> Now this point I'm pretty much in total agreement with. I'd be
> willing to pay a few bucks more for a game for an improvement
> in component quality. But I have to wonder if this isn't also
> a marketing thing. German games are (IMO) marketed to a
> different "mindset" of consumer than "Ameritrash" games. The
> "German game consumer" (regardless of his/her
> nationality/location) might be more discriminating about
> something like this than J.Q. Public shopping TRU for a gift.
Speaking to someone who puts out games, my opinion is that it is
easier for Germans, due to their wood industry, to produce higher
quality components than American companies are.
> The reasons you state why German games are appealing are true -
> I just don't see that they are all that unique to German games.
Unique is the wrong word. I would say more likely in reference to
German games than American designers at this time. Maybe it is just
the case that the best designers are now targeting their games to the
German audience. Nothing genetically special about the designers, just
economic conditions make it appear that German games are
intrinsically "better" as a rule.
Patrick Carroll
abstract
>>strategy games to the masses, because of the theme attached, that the
>>typical American abstract strategy game fails to do.
>
>Hmmm... These games do have "apparent" themes but most are thin.
. . . .<
This would seem to be the only point of contention. But I'm not sure there's
really any disagreement; just some difficulty arriving at a clear understanding
of the role of theme.
IMHO, the theme does help--for pretty much the reason Richard gave. But the
"thinness" of the theme is, I think, one of the success factors of German
games. There's a suggested theme, but it doesn't get in the way if a player
wants to focus on strategy or socializing instead.
It seems "theme" swung to an extreme in the 70s and 80s, especially in wargames
and RPGs. Nowadays heavy-theme games seem to be mostly computer games.
Players who sit around a table and socialize while they enjoy a game don't
usually want to be burdened with all that theme--though some of us do like a
small measure of it, just for flavor.
--P. C.,
Minnesota
Bruce Scanlon
nationality) games, too.
Why?
Interesting gameplay and simple rules. Low game time is also helpful.
Mainly, though, the play is the thing.
Without "German style" games I would be able to game much less both for lack
of opponents and for lack of time.
I didn't start playing "German style" games until Settlers of Catan, which
spread like wildfire through my extended group of friends that were all old
gamers that didn't have the time any more. More importantly, their
significant others and peripheral non-gaming friends also became involved in
gaming. This is when I personally had copies of Civilization, Illuminati,
Cosmic Encounters, and others on my shelf.
These games, while good, just weren't getting played. Civilization needed
lots of people and lots of time. Illuminati was overlong in play, and the
attacking mechanism (addition and subtraction of point bonuses and costs)
was ungraspable by many people for some reason. We just broke Cosmic
Encounter out a month ago and were surprised by how badly the power and card
interactions are handled, as well as, again, the length of the game and the
abstruse pilings on of different seemingly unrelated rules systems.
Note also that all three of these games involve a lot of player contention
and WHINING (a Settlers problem, too), whereas many "German style" games
minimize some of the negative political/emotional aspects of gaming.
Bruce :-)
<richar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:85kmja$ur7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> The previous "Ameritrash" post by myself and others, touched on reasons
> for the appeal of German games. I think that German games, for the
> most part, bear these traits and are appealing for it:
>
> * Low complexity rules. This means that the game is teachable to
> people in a relatively short period of time. The simplier the rules,
> the more likely someone is willing to take a risk on a game.
>
> * Playable in under 2 hours. This means that the game is more likely
> to be played more often. As someone said last night at someone's house
> while gaming, "Only with a German game can you get 2 games in in around
> 3 hours".
>
> * A game theme. It is often linked to the play mechanics. This gives
> someone who likes to fantasize while playing something to do when
> playing. German games have the unique ability to introduce abstract
> strategy games to the masses, because of the theme attached, that the
> typical American abstract strategy game fails to do.
>
> * Utilize new and old game mechanics in such a way that the experience
> of each game is unique. Almost all of the games avoid the trap
> of "Ameritrash" games where you move around a track "Parchesi" style as
> dictated by dice rolls. I think Midnight Party has this method, but
> even that does weird things with this game mechanic.
>
> * Not dominated by luck (there are exceptions of course to this). A
> game governed is fine if you are playing with children, or people who
> don't care about using skill to win. But, for a more hardcore gamer,
> it is essential that there is needed skill to win.
>
> * Wooden pieces/quality components. The quality of the game, its
> artwork and general sturdiness of the parts, makes the game appealing
> to both gamers and non-gamers.
>
> The low complexity, having a theme, and short playing game is able to
> hold the interest of non-gamers. Try springing a 5 hour gaming
> marathon with a non-gamer (I say 5 hours and marathon, simply because
> that is how a non-gamer would view it).
>
> The reduced luck element and unique gaming experience in each game
> leads holds the interest of more hardcore gamers.
>
> Well, my 2 cents on it.
David desJardins
>> 3/11. Not bad. I think that'd be a hard mark for German games
>> to live up to...
>
> My take on it is that German games, for the most part, crush these
> games. How many German games have you played?
Your "take" would be more convincing if you went to the trouble to go
through the entire lineup of games from a sample German publisher, and
actually examined how many of them you really recommend, and whether
it's really significantly more than 3/11. Several publishers would be
even better. If you won't do that, how can we know whether Graham's
thesis is right or not?
Surely you don't claim that the German games you particularly like are
all chosen from a random sample of all board games sold in Germany?
David desJardins
David Vander Ark
several aren't American in origin!
richar...@hotmail.com wrote:
>snip<
> The Monopoly games? The Trivia games? Sorry? Parchesi? Chutes
> and Ladders? Or, you have a game with a start and finish, and not
> circular.
Parchesi and Chutes and Ladders are both from India I believe.
Christian Killoran
<richar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:85kmja$ur7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> The previous "Ameritrash" post by myself and others, touched on reasons
> for the appeal of German games. I think that German games, for the
> most part, bear these traits and are appealing for it:
>
> * Low complexity rules. This means that the game is teachable to
> people in a relatively short period of time. The simplier the rules,
> the more likely someone is willing to take a risk on a game.
Yup. I'm very impressed by the strategic depth these games offer without a
huge rulebook. This is a giant plus for me.
>
> * Playable in under 2 hours. This means that the game is more likely
> to be played more often. As someone said last night at someone's house
> while gaming, "Only with a German game can you get 2 games in in around
> 3 hours".
Seems to me the playing time issue has some weaknesses...especially since I
get the feeling that German designers might well reject a game idea only
because the game might run a little long. I must admit that there are a lot
of folks on this group who buy into this concept, though.
>
> * A game theme. It is often linked to the play mechanics. This gives
> someone who likes to fantasize while playing something to do when
> playing. German games have the unique ability to introduce abstract
> strategy games to the masses, because of the theme attached, that the
> typical American abstract strategy game fails to do.
I like the games where the theme genuinely supports the game..either in
terms of play or learning the game. I have a feeling that many German games
are designed mechanics first, with a theme slapped on later. I think I
prefer games that are designed the other way around.
>
> * Utilize new and old game mechanics in such a way that the experience
> of each game is unique. Almost all of the games avoid the trap
> of "Ameritrash" games where you move around a track "Parchesi" style as
> dictated by dice rolls.
Ironically, this arguement bugs me a little. I'm not sure that the German
games do any more than Ameritrash when it comes to recycling old ideas. I
have this mental image of some German designer sitting around a pile of
tried and true mechanical systems, mixing and matching them together and
calling the result a "new game." This does flatten the learning curve
(which I like), but I'm much more impressed when I try out a new game and
find it to be a fresh experience. Up Front, Gunslinger, Dune, and Merchants
of Venus all had this effect for me (even though they all feature over-long
rules.) Even the most enthusiastic buzz for Torres refers to it as a cross
between El Grande and Tikal. (I ordered it anyway, and am hoping there's
something new in there.)
>
> * Not dominated by luck (there are exceptions of course to this). A
> game governed is fine if you are playing with children, or people who
> don't care about using skill to win. But, for a more hardcore gamer,
> it is essential that there is needed skill to win.
Most of the German games I've played feature an attractive luck-skill
balance. Kudos for that!
>
> * Wooden pieces/quality components. The quality of the game, its
> artwork and general sturdiness of the parts, makes the game appealing
> to both gamers and non-gamers.
Hear hear.
Greg Fleischman
> artwork and general sturdiness of the parts, makes the game appealing
> to both gamers and non-gamers.
>
Part of that quality is another appeal that is more tactile and less
obvious. Most German games use linen paper to cover their boxes and game
boards. Plus their graphics do have an artsy look that, combined with the
paper they're printed on, makes you believe you are holding more than a
mere toy. Granted, if the other aspects of German games weren't there,
just the boxes wouldn't be enough. But, the whole experience of the German
game--from when you first see the box, then hold it, then see the great
components, then learn to play an obviously well thought-out game--is
overwhelming. I see it everytime I get together with others whose sole
experience has been American games. They have a hard time believing that a
mere game could be so enjoyable. Even though the graphics on American
games can be quite splashy, you just don't get the same 1-2 punch that
German games deliver.
One of the things that I find interesting about German games is how they
can capture the complexity of a certain subject by distilling it into a few
simple rules. But it is more than just that because there is also the
authors impression of the subject he is using as inspiration for the game.
This made me think once that the experience of playing a German game is
similar to the experience of looking at an impressionist painting (ok,
humor me on this point). Once I saw a mountainscape painted by Monet and a
picture of the same place from the same point of view. It was obvious what
I was looking at in the painting, but Monet had removed certain details and
replaced them with his impressions. The picture was stark and very
accurate and the painting was simpler, yet more inviting. It was almost
like stepping into the painter's mind (am I going too far on this?).
Ultimately, I have to go back to my previous post that said, basically,
American's treat their games like toys, and that's what they appear to be
to adults. Germans treat their games as something much more, and that is
what they appear to be, too.
Greg
Kevin J. Maroney
> Well, the theme comment is addressing the type of American game
>known as "abstract strategy games". They are themeless games that are
>low complexity and playable in under 2 hours. However, the problem is
>that, because they are themeless, non-gamers go "ick" and can't
>relate. They are missing a level of "chrome" that captivates a gamer.
Which, of course, explains why _Chess_ and _Bridge_ sets can be found
in most American homes: The deep theming.
--
Kevin J. Maroney | Crossover Technologies | kmar...@crossover.com
Games are my entire waking life.
Dave Eggleston
> >known as "abstract strategy games". They are themeless games that are
> >low complexity and playable in under 2 hours. However, the problem is
> >that, because they are themeless, non-gamers go "ick" and can't
> >relate. They are missing a level of "chrome" that captivates a gamer.
>
> in most American homes: The deep theming.
Yeah, just like Americans are crazy about classical music cuz
they can hum Beethoven's 5th.
- d
Randy Cox
> >* A game theme. It is often linked to the play mechanics. This gives
> >someone who likes to fantasize while playing something to do when
> >playing. German games have the unique ability to introduce abstract
> >strategy games to the masses, because of the theme attached, that the
> >typical American abstract strategy game fails to do.
>
> This one, however, I find absurd. It is a rare German game that has a
> theme strong enough to disguise the abstract nature of the game.
> Settlers comes to mind as a German game that does have a strong theme,
> but I can think of ten that don't for every one that does.
Here, here, Steffan. It's a very, very rare German game
where the choice of pasted-on theme comes close to matching
the mechanisms of the game. And anyone who argues that a
specious theme is a good thing because it lets the player decide
what theme they want to imagine is blowing smoke up our
collective asses. Games are either abstract or they have a
valid theme--game producers aren't supposed to 'suggest' the
theme and leave you to decide if you like it or not; they're
supposed to make it mesh with the game.
David desJardins
> Games are either abstract or they have a valid theme--game producers
> aren't supposed to 'suggest' the theme and leave you to decide if you
> like it or not; they're supposed to make it mesh with the game.
Gamers aren't 'supposed' to tell other people what they should like in
their games; they're supposed to respect their individual preferences.
I didn't even realize that there was a Council of Game Theme Standards.
David desJardins
Mark Johnson
<20000113141115...@ng-fv1.aol.com>:
>IMHO, the theme does help--for pretty much the reason Richard gave. But
>the "thinness" of the theme is, I think, one of the success factors of
>German games. There's a suggested theme, but it doesn't get in the way
>if a player wants to focus on strategy or socializing instead.
While I've no doubt that's true, it doesn't apply to all fans of "German"
games, such as myself. Case in point: last night I played another game of
Vinci, which I vastly prefer to El Grande. Why? Because El Grande has one
of those thin themes you describe, whereas Vinci's theme is so strong that
I'd call it a low level simulation. Of course, at least as many people
prefer El Grande for its elegant mechanics, and probably there are lots of
gamers that enjoy both games.
My only point is that *strength* of theme, balanced with smooth mechanics,
is what attracts me to certain German games.
-MJ
Julian
> Once I saw a mountainscape painted by Monet and a
>picture of the same place from the same point of view. It was obvious what
>I was looking at in the painting, but Monet had removed certain details and
>replaced them with his impressions. The picture was stark and very
>accurate and the painting was simpler, yet more inviting. It was almost
>like stepping into the painter's mind (am I going too far on this?).
>
No, I don't think you are. In fact you have captured what many appear to
have completely missed or ignored.
I think that's what makes a good themed game. It is often not obvious to the
majority of gamers who say "The theme is tacked on". From a very simple
idea, think symbolically, or think of the essence that makes the theme what
it is. e.g. You could look at Der Ausreisser as an abstract card game, but
actually the Yellow Jersey counter epitomises 'capturing the essence' of
setting the pace in bike racing.
--
Regards
Julian
Melbourne, Australia
Mark Johnson
>Gamers aren't 'supposed' to tell other people what they should like in
>their games; they're supposed to respect their individual preferences.
Agreed. And I'm even one of those rabid theme-loving types. But I know the
old saw about different strokes for different folks.
richar...@hotmail.com
kmar...@crossover.com wrote:
> Which, of course, explains why _Chess_ and _Bridge_ sets can be found
> in most American homes: The deep theming.
And you can find Bibles in most people's homes to, but that doesn't
mean they use them either. How many people you know that actually USE
chess or bridge sets? The point of this post is why German STYLE games
are appealing to some people. People will buy things such as chess
sets for other reasons. One of them is to send out an image they
are "smart". The designer chess set they have set up in their place is
there as a discussion nitnack, and isn't really used.
Trevor Hyde
> >* A game theme. It is often linked to the play mechanics. This gives
> >someone who likes to fantasize while playing something to do when
> >playing. German games have the unique ability to introduce abstract
> >strategy games to the masses, because of the theme attached, that the
> >typical American abstract strategy game fails to do.
>
> This one, however, I find absurd. It is a rare German game that has a
> theme strong enough to disguise the abstract nature of the game.
> Settlers comes to mind as a German game that does have a strong theme,
> but I can think of ten that don't for every one that does.
There is something to both of your arguments. Themeless abstract
games have little appeal to me, and many other posters have mentioned
that heavily theme dominated games are somewhat passe right now. So
part of the German game appeal must be that thin theme, that some
gamers can bask in, and others ignore. I have to admit that when a
theme is that thin you rarely have game arguments about how realistic
the rules are, which are rife in more heavily themed wargames (i.e.,
"it makes no sense that the Russian player gets to automatically
control Allied forces that move into his/her territory, lets change
the rules next time"). This allows the designers to create a more
balanced ruleset gameplay-wise.
I do believe, however, that the theme is not as dispensable as you
suggest. I imagine that the theme in many cases was the original
inspiration for the game design (Ursuppe, Big City, Settlers, Mamma
Mia; maybe not so much for the Els [Grande, Caballero]).
Trevor
Patrick Carroll
>> Games are either abstract or they have a valid theme--game producers
>> aren't supposed to 'suggest' the theme and leave you to decide if you
>> like it or not; they're supposed to make it mesh with the game.
>
>their games; they're supposed to respect their individual preferences.
Newsgroup posters aren't 'supposed' to tell other ng posters that they're not
supposed to post messages about what game publishers are supposed to do.
They're expected to respect individual styles of posting messages.
Insert an "IMHO" or two in Randy's post, and I think it's just fine, and not
the least bit disrespectful (even if it is playfully antagonstic).
--P. C.,
Minnesota
Craig Massey
Graham Wills <gwi...@research.bell-labs.com> wrote:
> As a statistician, I ahve to ask myself first if you are actually
> correct
> in the premise. Are german style games appealing? An alternative
> explanation might simply be that there are just a huge number of them
> and so, even if they are no better than other games, the best games
> are likely of this style.
>
> In other words, if you were to play 5 randomly chosen German
> games and 5 randomly chose American games, which set are you
> more likely to prefer? Here's Wizards of the Coats line up, as an
> example of a US company, with games I like marked.
>
> * Guillotine
> AlphaBlitz
> Pivot
> Twitch
> Go Wild!
> Earthquake
> Instinct
> * The Great Dalmuti
> * RoboRally
> What Were You ...
> Filthy Rich
>
> 3/11. Not bad. I think that'd be a hard mark for German games
> to live up to...
Okay, take this one step further and compare it to the lineup of a
German company to comparison. Let's use Hans im Gluck for instance.
Here is their offerings from Funagain - I don't know what their full
catalog would look like.
Auf Heller & Pfenning
1835
El Grade & its expansions
El Cabellero
Eurphrat & Tigris
Candeletto
Cheops
Dolce Vita
Drunter & Druber
Friebueter
Klunker
Die Macher
Modern Art
Quo Vadis
Samurai
Richochet Robot
T-Rex
Wald Miester
Maestro
It's not hard to look at that list and say that I truly enjoy and
respect over half those games and like playing 80%+ of them. I think
Richard's original premise is a valid one and trying to compare an
American game cos. offerings to a German game cos offerings will only
serve to help illustrate Richard's point. Looking at the WOTC vs. HiG
list shows a huge difference in the types of games and in my mind the
HiG list is the one with a much great appeal.
Just my 2 cents
Craig Massey
cma...@forrester.com
Kevin J. Maroney
>People will buy things such as chess
>sets for other reasons. One of them is to send out an image they
>are "smart".
Do you actually know anyone who has ever bought a _Chess_ set (or a
_Bridge_ set) to "look smart", or are you just assuming that they must
have done so?
Graham Wills
> > 3/11. Not bad. I think that'd be a hard mark for German games
> > to live up to...
> Okay, take this one step further and compare it to the lineup of a
> German company to comparison. Let's use Hans im Gluck for instance.
> Here is their offerings from Funagain - I don't know what their full
> catalog would look like.
>
> Auf Heller & Pfenning
> 1835, El Grade, El Cabellero, Eurphrat & Tigris, Candeletto
> Cheops, Dolce Vita, Drunter & Druber, Friebueter, Klunker, Die Macher, Modern Art
> Quo Vadis, Samurai, Richochet Robot, T-Rex, Wald Miester, Maestro
OK, I'm up to this. I have played and like many of these games, BUT
when I play them with firends and family, they appeal less. Of the
list the only one other people will ask to play (in direct contrast
with WoTC's offerings) is El Grande. For me, I'd 5 of them happily -
and don't know all of them - so 50% seems a reasonable figure.
But for general appeal --- I'm not sure.
Again though -- and I'm also guilty -- we're not selecting
random companies. We're selecting Good companies (I
probably would have gone for Avalon Hill as a better company,
but I though WoTC still a good choice). If there are
more German companies than US ones, then even if there
is nop tendancy for Germans to be better, the best of the
Germans will likely be better than the best of the US
spam...@phantaci.retlif.maps.com
>In article <9gns7ssjmu20l73j9...@4ax.com>,
> kmar...@crossover.com wrote:
>> Which, of course, explains why _Chess_ and _Bridge_ sets can be found
>> in most American homes: The deep theming.
>And you can find Bibles in most people's homes to, but that doesn't
>mean they use them either. How many people you know that actually USE
>chess or bridge sets? The point of this post is why German STYLE games
I use my chess set all the time. New American game, innovative in use
with an old concept. Plays quickly. Knightmare Chess.
--
Jim Shumaker |
ja...@phantaci.com |
Mountain View, CA |
Robert Chang
kmar...@crossover.com wrote:
> richar...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >People will buy things such as chess
> >sets for other reasons. One of them is to send out an image they
> >are "smart".
>
> Do you actually know anyone who has ever bought a _Chess_ set (or a
> _Bridge_ set) to "look smart", or are you just assuming that they must
> have done so?
A bit of a side question here... What the hell is a Bridge set? Wouldn't
that just be a deck of cards?
-bob
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= b...@soda.berkeley.edu = It is now pitch black. You are likely to =
= go...@uclink.berkeley.edu = be eaten by a grue. --Zork =
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Steffan O'Sullivan
>
>I use my chess set all the time. New American game, innovative in use
>with an old concept. Plays quickly. Knightmare Chess.
Er, that's a French game, sorry.
--
Steffan O'Sullivan gr...@groo.com Plymouth, NH, USA
------------------------ http://www.io.com/~sos -----------------------
"All history is made up. Good history is made up by good historians;
bad history is made up by the others." -David Macaulay
David Bernazzani
wrote:
>In article <a8pu7skhri38i9j0n...@4ax.com>,
>kmar...@crossover.com wrote:
>
>> richar...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >People will buy things such as chess
>> >sets for other reasons. One of them is to send out an image they
>> >are "smart".
>>
>> Do you actually know anyone who has ever bought a _Chess_ set (or a
>> _Bridge_ set) to "look smart", or are you just assuming that they must
>> have done so?
>
>A bit of a side question here... What the hell is a Bridge set? Wouldn't
>that just be a deck of cards?
I've seen Bridge sets which consist of two nicely finished decks in a
holder with a scoring pad and pen/pencil. Anything for a buck!
- Dave Bernazzani
db...@gis.net
http://www.gis.net/~dber (South Shore Gamers Association)
Geenius at Wrok
> richar...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >People will buy things such as chess
> >sets for other reasons. One of them is to send out an image they
> >are "smart".
>
> Do you actually know anyone who has ever bought a _Chess_ set (or a
> _Bridge_ set) to "look smart", or are you just assuming that they must
> have done so?
Actually, with chess, yes. To be fair, the guy actually was smart -- but
he bought the set to -show- that he was smart, not to play it.
--
"I wish EVERY day could be a shearing festival!" -- The 10 Commandments
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Keith Ammann is gee...@albany.net "I notice you have a cloud of doom.
Live with honor, endure with grace I must admit it makes you seem
www.albany.net/~geenius * Lun Yu 2:24 dangerous and sexy."
Kevin J. Maroney
>A bit of a side question here... What the hell is a Bridge set? Wouldn't
>that just be a deck of cards?
Two decks of cards, but yes.
Patrick Carroll
>that just be a deck of cards?
Usually two small, artsy decks and a scorepad (with maybe a little pencil).
But these few items do come packaged in sets.
>> Do you actually know anyone who has ever bought a _Chess_ set (or a
>> _Bridge_ set) to "look smart", or are you just assuming that they must
>> have done so?
I know people who've bought chess and go sets just because they *admired* the
games from a distance, even though they didn't know how to play. They'd set
them up as interesting items of furniture, talk about what "deep and
meaningful" games they are, and always be planning to learn the game . . .
someday.
That's not quite the same thing as buying a game-set just to "look smart." But
it is an example of buying game-sets but not playing the games.
However, it may disprove the point, because evidently games like chess and
bridge *are* appealing--if only as objects of intellectual/aesthetic
admiration. Games like Settlers of Catan, OTOH, may be appealing for other
reasons--like the interest in sitting down and playing them with family &
friends.
A better question for the title of this thread might be "Reasons why German
games get played so often."
My query would be, Do they really?
--P. C.,
Minnesota
David desJardins
>> In other words, if you were to play 5 randomly chosen German
>> games and 5 randomly chose American games, which set are you
>> more likely to prefer?
>
> Funagain - I don't know what their full catalog would look like.
I think there's a big selection bias there. Funagain Games carries
those games from Hans im Gluck which they can sell best in the US. It's
no surprise that US gamers generally enjoy a much higher fraction of
those games than they would a random sample. That follows from how they
were chosen.
David desJardins
joe willette
Bruce Scanlon wrote:
> Illuminati was overlong in play, and the attacking mechanism (addition
and >subtraction of point bonuses and costs) was ungraspable by many
people for some >reason.
You are absolutely right about the inability of some people to grasp Illuminati,
but we found that experienced players could knock out games in about 90
minutes. The Y2K expansion has raised that to a little over 2 hours though.
Joe W.
kas...@acadia.net
family gamers is the fact that in German games, you compete
*constructively.* You do NOT win the game by destroying, bankrupting,
or slaying your opponents. You win by gaining more victory points,
building more settlements, maneuvering your riverboat more successfully,
visiting more Elf cities, or otherwise achieving some strictly positive
goal that does NOT come (directly at least) at the expense of other
players.
It's true that in many or most German games, there are ways of getting
at your opponents -- stealing a card, blocking a production point,
obstructing a road, bumping a riverboat. But such actions offer only
momentary tactical advantages, and they do not knock the other player
out of competition. Moreover, they come at a COST, in that you must
forego other, more positive options. Most importantly, it's possible
(e.g. if you're a parent with high-strung children) to simply play the
game without resort to such hostile tactics.
This quality is so consistent across the spectrum of German games that I
suspect it must have a cultural basis. And in fact, there is a long
German compound word for it: Gesellschaftspiele, which means roughly
"social games" (not in the sense of "social gathering" but in the sense
of "Social Democrat"). I would guess that in postwar Germany, the
notion that you win anything by destroying your neighbors must seem a
tragic absurdity.
--
Ich brauche nicht immer meiner eigenen Meinung zu sein.
I need not always be of my own opinion.
-- Heinrich Heine
Kevin J. Maroney
>I think there's a big selection bias there. Funagain Games carries
>those games from Hans im Gluck which they can sell best in the US. It's
>no surprise that US gamers generally enjoy a much higher fraction of
>those games than they would a random sample. That follows from how they
>were chosen.
Actually, I think Funagain carries the entire HiG catalog.
HiG's catalog is probably the most "gamerly" among all German
publishers, and most likely to appeal to a American German-game fan,
especially one who posts to r.g.b. WotC's card games are targeted at a
non-gamer audience and are less likely to appeal to a gamer.
Mik Svellov
Steffan O'Sullivan
> It is a rare German game that has a
> theme strong enough to disguise the abstract nature of the game.
> Settlers comes to mind as a German game that does have a strong theme,
> but I can think of ten that don't for every one that does.
I found the description on why German games are popular spot on. And I find the theme in German games just as valid as the themes in equivalent American games (Monopoly etc). I have no problems with being a noble Egyptian trying to create as many 'points' for myself as possible in present and afterlife (Ra).
And even a thinly disguised theme as in Durch die Wueste make the game more 'playable' than Gipf or other games without a theme.
Mik
Mik Svellov
Randy Cox:
> Games are either abstract or they have a
> valid theme--game producers aren't supposed to 'suggest' the
> theme and leave you to decide if you like it or not; they're
> supposed to make it mesh with the game.
They are supposed to make the game a hit on the shelves, and that is what the themes do for German games. It is no coincidence that the 'exotic influence' is so great in German game design - it sells games.
Mik
EYE of NiGHT
>I think one more factor deserves mention here. Of special interest to
>family gamers is the fact that in German games, you compete
>*constructively.* You do NOT win the game by destroying, bankrupting,
>or slaying your opponents. You win by gaining more victory points,
>building more settlements, maneuvering your riverboat more successfully,
>visiting more Elf cities, or otherwise achieving some strictly positive
>goal that does NOT come (directly at least) at the expense of other
>players.
>
I agree with this very strongly. These games have scoring tracks round
the board, and players are effectively chasing each other, in a much
more appealing, visual way, rather than accumulating piles of cash.
Whereas in Monopoly, you are actively trying to destroy the other
players, which is why it is such a horrible negative experience. And
it is of course, death by a thousand cuts.
It is very noticeable how in many German games, if you play reasonably
well, most players are in with a chance of winning right to the end.
And some games, like Medici, do use money, but it is not in the form
of cash, but in your scoring track effectively as part of your score.
This idea of players working towards positive goals does seem to be
non-American/British and one which our designers seem loath to grasp.
Swan
The big attraction for me in the german games comes in one word. QUALITY!!!
I used to loathe paying 40-100 bucks on an avalon hill game just to have the
board tear when I opened it the first time(or be torn already), having to
fight to get the counters out of the sheet(unlike the german games where
they come out oh so nice) and finally the fact that for 100 bucks I getting
paper pieces (As opposed to 3D wood(mostly) or plastic(rarely) in german
games).
On that note I think the New line from avalon Hill is really addressing the
issues that kept more gamers from their original products. One can only
hope the re-release more product in the AH ( I'd like to see Civilization
and advanced Civ redone for example).
Ray Swan
Kevin J. Maroney
>I used to loathe paying 40-100 bucks on an avalon hill game just to have the
>board tear when I opened it the first time(or be torn already), having to
>fight to get the counters out of the sheet(unlike the german games where
>they come out oh so nice) and finally the fact that for 100 bucks I getting
>paper pieces (As opposed to 3D wood(mostly) or plastic(rarely) in german
>games).
I would like to know how you managed to pay $100 for an Avalon Hill
game, since I can't think of a one of them which had a price point
above $50.
Robert Chang
kmar...@crossover.com wrote:
> "Swan" <sw...@compusmart.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> >I used to loathe paying 40-100 bucks on an avalon hill game just to have the
> >board tear when I opened it the first time(or be torn already), having to
> >fight to get the counters out of the sheet(unlike the german games where
> >they come out oh so nice) and finally the fact that for 100 bucks I getting
> >paper pieces (As opposed to 3D wood(mostly) or plastic(rarely) in german
> >games).
>
> I would like to know how you managed to pay $100 for an Avalon Hill
> game, since I can't think of a one of them which had a price point
> above $50.
Those crazy Canadians seem to think that they are their own country with
their own dollar. ;)
Kevin J. Maroney
>I would like to know how you managed to pay $100 for an Avalon Hill
>game, since I can't think of a one of them which had a price point
>above $50.
Ugly American Apology time: I hadn't realized that Swann was using
Canadian dollars. Sorry about that.
dave...@bestspamfoiler.com
Geenius at Wrok <gee...@albany.net> wrote:
>You can't overrate the importance of this factor. [simple rules]
I have to agree, it's great to be able to learn new games in just 10-15
minutes.
>Every time I trot out a
>new game, my fellow players -- who know me all too well -- get these tense
>little looks on their faces as I begin to read the rules. When I'm
>finished, there's always an audible sigh of relief that I'm done reading
>so soon.
Assuming you mean you literally read the rules to the other players, I
think you'd get a better reception if you read and understand the rules
yourself, then explain them in a more conversational way. I've always found
it hard to follow when somebody else is just reading the rules out loud.
--
Dave Kohr <dave...@bestSPAMFOILER.com> Be sure to remove the SPAMFOILER!
Bay Area Games Day IX is coming up soon! Jan. 22 at 10 AM in Los Altos, CA
http://www.best.com/~davekohr/gamesday