RE: The last Monty vs M. Petch match.
mont...@lycos.com
there is MontyBackgammon. I was able to connect to FIBS. On Saturday
(at 2:30 PM EST), what do I need to do to get to the correct table?
Or will I see a message from M. Petch, asking me to join in a 15 pt.
match?
Michael Petch
matches in the next couple days to get use to it as well!
On 5/7/08 4:28 PM, in article
9a83b2f9-7704-40a8...@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com,
gammon_...@comcast.net
> I'll create the table, and you can join. I have to play some warm up
> matches in the next couple days to get use to it as well!
>
> On 5/7/08 4:28 PM, in article
>
>
>
> "monty1...@lycos.com" <monty1...@lycos.com> wrote:
> > I created a FIBS account and downloaded the 3D software. My username
> > there is MontyBackgammon. I was able to connect to FIBS. On Saturday
> > (at 2:30 PM EST), what do I need to do to get to the correct table?
> > Or will I see a message from M. Petch, asking me to join in a 15 pt.
>
> - Show quoted text -
There are no tables. You'll see a player list. All you need is to know
each others nicks and invite from the player list. Very simple.
Bob
mont...@lycos.com
paulde...@att.net
> So I should wait to be invited, Bob?
No, I don't think so. You and Michael are playing on equal terms so
there's no reason why you should "wait to be invited" rather than
doing the invitation yourself. There's obviously a specific fibs code
for the invite, and I'm sure there's a handy help menu which you can
consult. A wild(ish) guess is that you would say (for example) invite
BluffDouble 15 (assuming mpetch's fibs nick is "BluffDouble").
Paul Epstein
Patti Beadles
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles, Oakland, CA |
pattib~pattib.org | All religions are equally
http://www.pattib.org/ | ludicrous, and should be ridiculed
http://stopshootingauto.com | as often as possible. C. Bond
Michael Petch
On 5/7/08 11:48 PM, in article fvu488$g5l$1...@blue.rahul.net, "Patti Beadles"
<pat...@green.rahul.net> wrote:
> How big an audience do you expect this to draw?
>
Howdy Patti,
I expect no more than 20 people. Most of the interest has been in the posted
results on my webpage.
Neil Robins
FIBS?
"Patti Beadles" <pat...@green.rahul.net> wrote in message
news:fvu488$g5l$1...@blue.rahul.net...
Michael Petch
On 5/8/08 5:13 AM, in article LfBUj.26958$6a2....@newsfe17.ams2, "Neil
Robins" <neil.r...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Do you not need some experience before you can play a 15 point match on
> FIBS?
>
I hope not, because I'd move the venue back to WGC. Can anyone confirm
this?
Neil Robins
"Michael Petch" <mpe...@capp-sysware.com> wrote in message
news:C4484F2E.58B33%mpe...@capp-sysware.com...
What types of games are on this server?
Just backgammon, both match play and unlimited. Match lengths can be from 1
point to 99 points (limited to 9 points until you have 50 experience
points).
Peter Schneider
"Michael Petch" <mpe...@capp-sysware.com> wrote
> "Neil
> Robins" <neil.r...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> Do you not need some experience
>> before you can play a 15 point match on
>> FIBS?
>>
>
> I hope not, because I'd move the
> venue back to WGC. Can anyone confirm
> this?
RTFM.
"man invite" -> "Invitations for matches longer than 9 points are limited to
players whose experience is high enough to appear in the rating list."
"man ratings" -> "If your experience is greater than 50 you'll appear in the
rating list."
I'd recommend to gain some experience with an unknown client on an unknown
server anyway before playing seriously, in order to avoid mistakes as well as
distraction caused by technicalities. Whether 51 seems unreasonable (each *game*
equals one experience point) is up to you.
Note that if the help text is correct, only the inviting player needs to be
experienced. If you don't care about experience but only about "experience", you
can probably gain an "experience" of 51 within a few minutes by just resigning a
few matches. I bet you'll find a partner for that. Use "shout" to ask for one
(do I get priority?). If the other player is "experienced" enough, s/he should
be able to invite you for a 51ptr right away. Officially, of course, this is
considered ratings manipulation aka cheating, but I think you can have Patti's
placet for an exception -- as long as you don't give the points to Nihi ;-).
Regards,
Peter aka the juggler
Michael Petch
I've contacted Patti to see if the restriction can be lifted on certain
accounts. As for RTFM, the client software DOCS made no mention of it. And I
don't feel compelled as a user to have to find out about the inner working
of the server itself by rummaging through other links. In fact when I asked
about it in the lobby people knew there was a limitation but couldn't even
tell me what experience I needed (The best suggestion given was looking on
fibsboard).
I do not have time to play around and throw matches etc before Saturday (Nor
would I violate the spirit of play on Fibs by doing so). If I have no
ability to play a 15ptr, I will request Monty and I finish the series off on
WGC where there are no such limitations.
PS: and this may be surprising but the WGC interface for Backgammon is
actually much better than some of the Fibs Clients for playability and ease
of use.
Mike
Peter Schneider
"Michael Petch" wrote
> And I
> don't feel compelled as a user to
> have to find out about the inner working
> of the server itself by rummaging
> through other links.
Other links? Like www.fibs.com or the "help" command? And finding out about the
inner working of FIBS is close to impossible since it's closed source; the task
was to find out about what's exposed to users.
> In fact when I asked
> about it in the lobby people knew
> there was a limitation but couldn't even
> tell me what experience I needed
That the habit of not reading documentation is wide-spread does not make it
better.
> PS: and this may be surprising
> but the WGC interface for Backgammon is
> actually much better than some of
> the Fibs Clients for playability and ease
> of use.
A commercial (as I uppose) program may well be better usable than some of the
freeware, shareware or "abandonware" FIBS clients. From my personal experience
JavaFIBS does a reasonably good job though -- but then it's always easier to
work with programs one already knows (I still use BBGT).
Michael Petch
On 5/8/08 11:32 AM, in article 68grnnF...@mid.individual.net, "Peter
Schneider" <schneiderp...@gmx.net> wrote:
> Other links? Like www.fibs.com or the "help" command? And finding out about
> the
> inner working of FIBS is close to impossible since it's closed source; the
> task
> was to find out about what's exposed to users.
>
As a user with a career 2.5 decades in software development, I'm going
comment about this.
I decided to NOT use the telnet client as an option. This was an option, but
I wanted a GUI. A proper Human Computer Interface guides a person through
solving their problems (or reaching their goal), it is not to put road
blocks in there way.
With that being said I download 3DFibs. I faithfully installed it. Since I
do not know any of the underlying commands for fibs (As a user I should
expect that the GUI/Help provided though the client should suffice). The
intent of a GUI should make my life easier, not harder.
First time I invited a player to play - I took a close look that I could set
the match to these values:S,1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21 (I won't go into the
poor design of just putting an 'S' as an option - its meaningless and forces
me to look at the 3DFibs documentation (I hit F1, and it explains to me that
S is for Resuming matches). Bad HCI to list something as S when R would be a
better mnemonic, but in the real world it should be the full word "Resume
Match". That is logical, makes sense and tells me something without going to
the help.
But it gets better. The first time I invited someone I hit F1 to find out
what "S" meant, but I encountered my first road block (I am one to RTFM, and
one is supplied with 3Dfibs). I installed the product under Windows Vista.
Wouldn't you know it Help wouldn't run because WinHlp32.exe wasn't found.
Microsoft was smart enough to put a link into the help window to resolve
that (The 3dFibs installer should have installed it imho). So I had to go to
the MS windows webpage, Install an active X control, validate my windows,
and then click the download button, click through all the prompts. Now I
have Help! Woohooo. Should I as a user be required to go through that many
hoops just to get help? No. A novice user who isn't computer savvy may not
be inclined to RTFM if its not readily available.
But lets look at this more. Does 3dFibs have help commands on the menu? Sure
it does. It has an about box, check for updates, and "Contents F1" which I
managed to use for context sensitive help above. AT no point in the
documentation is it even mentioned that there is "More help, for commands
and features on Fibs itself". If this was actually the case, 3dFibs should
actually have a link to that "Fibs help command". But better yet, there
should be a "Online FIBS Help" item on the menu that actually executes the
HELP interface of Fibs itself. I was totally unaware that there was "MORE
Help" at the command line in the room, because the GUI didn't do anything to
tell me it existed.
So back to the match length. Would it surprise you to know that nowhere in
the 3DFibs help (And they have contex sensitive help for "Inviting") that a
person with less 50 experience can't create a 15 pt match, even though 15
appears in the list? I read the help, its not mentioned. Is that my fault.
Imagine my surprise when I learn on the Newsgroup that this is actually an
issue.
I RTFM, I used the context sensitive help, I jumped through hoops for Help
to work, only to gind out that the GUI doesn't even enforce in the drop down
list the number of points I can set. That's the failing. As a user, and a
person with HCI background - this is actually quite appalling, so please
don't lecture me that I didn't RTFM. Maybe there is a reason why a lot of
people don't know about these undocumented "Features". But then again what
do I know - I am a computer novice.
>
> That the habit of not reading documentation is wide-spread does not make it
> better.
>
See above. In Fibs case the clients themselves are ALSO at fault since they
clearly don't make finding information that easy. I mean HELP should be EASY
to get. Not hard!
> A commercial (as I uppose) program may well be better usable than some of the
> freeware, shareware or "abandonware" FIBS clients. From my personal experience
> JavaFIBS does a reasonably good job though -- but then it's always easier to
> work with programs one already knows (I still use BBGT).
>
How many commercial programs do I have to go through before I find one that
enforces everything that the server does? That has documentation that is
complete, and an HCI that wants me to play rather than give up because the
software is trying everything to leave. What feature isn't enforced in
JavaFibs for example or BBGT, which ones have complete documentation, and
which do not. 3DFibs is one of the clients linked from the fibs pages. How
am I suppose to know which ones are complete, and which ones don't reveal
certain facts about match length?
I know the background on Fibs, I am well aware of the situation on the
server, and the clients. Forget about RTFM, Fibs is showing its years. It is
antiquated, and clearly there is no Quality Control between the Clients
written, and Fibs itself. About the only way to use Fibs and have full
control Is to use Telnet from the start. But I figured a GUI would be easier
(Gosh, I was wrong about that)
This is no slam on Patti. She does a great job to keep this server going
(Time, Effort, loss of hair folicles, money and I commend her for 12 years
of service. I can't fault her for bad program design on the clients. I as a
user shouldn't need to know the specifics of what goes on underneath the
GUI. I should be guided by the GUI to my desired outcome, not road blocked
by it.
There are distinct advantages of closed software, where the clients are
written by those who maintain the back end. They can maintain quality
control from one end to the other. Quality control should not be something I
as a user should be concerned about.
Mike
Peter Schneider
you are right, I was lecturing. I apologize. I agree with your analysis of the
underlying reasons for your bad experience on FIBS (clients and server from
unrelated sources, no QA). One can't use all of FIBS' features without some
knowledge of the server, and for users who are usually playing on servers with
"opaque" clients that is not obvious.
Grunty
wrote:
There has to be a moral somewhere.
Patti Beadles
Grunty <grunti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>There has to be a moral somewhere.
The moral is that all you client-using wimps should just get
over it and use telnet. :-)
Michael Petch
On 5/8/08 6:55 PM, in article g007e1$8m7$1...@blue.rahul.net, "Patti Beadles"
<pat...@green.rahul.net> wrote:
>> There has to be a moral somewhere.
>
> The moral is that all you client-using wimps should just get
> over it and use telnet. :-)
>
Lol :), well hey I created an ethernet interface for an old C64 I had and
simple tcpip stack with telnet. Maybe I should pull it out, and use it to
play Monty ;-)
On a serious note. I'd like to thank a very fine person on Fibs for helping
me out. "Maria" contacted me (Although I think I may end up calling her
Mario) this evening and was willing to play a 21 pt match to bring my
experience to 50. Very fine lady, and long time fibster - She tells me
Patti still uses the telnet client to play?! I'd like to thank her for
playing a long match to help out.
What I learned was that only one person needs 50 experience to invite anyone
for a 15pt match. So we should be good to go for Saturday thanks to "Maria".
I suggest Monty get some practice matches in, it has taken me a bit of
playing to get use to it, and "Maria" suggested the same.
Thanks everyone for all the help,
Michael
paulde...@att.net
> On 5/8/08 6:55 PM, in article g007e1$8m...@blue.rahul.net, "Patti Beadles"
Michael,
This is a peripheral question(s) but I'm afraid I'm the type of person
who likes to understand 100% of what I read. If someone is called
Maria, then why would you call her "Mario"? Also why do you put
quotation marks around Maria's name?
[Are you familiar with the Lewis Carroll quotation about the
difference between a song having a name and the name of the song
having a name etc? I'm kind of reminded of it here.]
Paul Epstein
Michael Petch
On 5/9/08 12:45 AM, in article
1e774abd-840d-45de...@y18g2000pre.googlegroups.com,
"paulde...@att.net" <paulde...@att.net> wrote:
> Michael,
>
> This is a peripheral question(s) but I'm afraid I'm the type of person
> who likes to understand 100% of what I read. If someone is called
> Maria, then why would you call her "Mario"?
The Mario reference is an inside joke based on the chat I had with "Maria"
> Also why do you put
> quotation marks around Maria's name?
I put quotations around her nick since its not really her first name. It his
her nick on Fibs. I didn't ask why she goes by "Maria". Since I know her
real name, and not sure she wishes it to be known I use quotations to
distinguish her pseudonym from he real name.
>
> [Are you familiar with the Lewis Carroll quotation about the
> difference between a song having a name and the name of the song
> having a name etc? I'm kind of reminded of it here.]
>
I'm more reminded of Magritte and "ceci n'est pas une pipe"
Mike
Michael Petch
On 5/9/08 12:52 AM, in article C44950B6.58B6F%mpe...@capp-sysware.com,
"Michael Petch" <mpe...@capp-sysware.com> wrote:
>
> I'm more reminded of Magritte and "ceci n'est pas une pipe"
>
Should have read "I'm reminded more". I figure I need to correct myself on
trivial matters because of the lack of real news in the backgammon world ;-)
paulde...@att.net
...
>
> > Also why do you put
> > quotation marks around Maria's name?
>
> I put quotations around her nick since its not really her first name. It his
> her nick on Fibs. I didn't ask why she goes by "Maria". Since I know her
> real name, and not sure she wishes it to be known I use quotations to
> distinguish her pseudonym from he real name.
>
Ok. In that case, I look forward to reading books by "George Orwell".
Paul Epstein
Patti Beadles
Michael Petch <mpe...@capp-sysware.com> wrote:
>She tells me Patti still uses the telnet client to play?!
Damned straight I do. I can't imagine wanting to put my hands
on a mouse when there's a perfectly good keyboard at my disposal.
You kids with your newfangled graphics just don't now what you're
missing-- X's and O's are perfectly fine representations of
checkers, thankyouverymuch.
Monty now has an artificially-generated experience of 50. It
probably doesn't matter, but just in case...
Michael Petch
On 5/9/08 2:43 AM, in article g012rv$9rn$1...@blue.rahul.net, "Patti Beadles"
<pat...@green.rahul.net> wrote:
> Damned straight I do. I can't imagine wanting to put my hands
> on a mouse when there's a perfectly good keyboard at my disposal.
> You kids with your newfangled graphics just don't now what you're
> missing-- X's and O's are perfectly fine representations of
> checkers, thankyouverymuch.
>
:)
> Monty now has an artificially-generated experience of 50. It
> probably doesn't matter, but just in case...
Thanks very much for adjusting it.
Mike
marie
I enjoyed playing with you and if I wasn't so tired I *might* have ended up
winning our 21 point match.
Good luck to you in future matches.
"Michael Petch" <mpe...@capp-sysware.com> wrote in message
news:C449020C.58B64%mpe...@capp-sysware.com...