Poker player asks: how much skill in BG?
MILESFNW
that the long run can be a VERY long time, and in the short run, luck can be a
killer.
How big is the luck factor in Backgammon? I'm a new player, mostly because I
stumbled upon a Backgammon game for my Palm Pilot. I've been playing against
that, and doing fairly well, but I don't know how accurate a measurement of
skill that particular program is.
Can a novice run over a skilled player in the short run? In poker, a novice can
wipe out an experienced pro in the short run. What about Backgammon?
Thanks.
Milesfnw
Patti Beadles
I play or have played both games rather seriously.
I'd say that the luck factor in backgammon is about the same as in
poker. It's certainly very easy for a novice to take out a skilled
player in a shorter match (3,5,7 points), or in a shorter money
session. In a cubeless one-point game, the luck factor is very high,
and the skilled player is at best about 3:2.
Over time, though, it will all balance out, and th skillful player's
edge will become apparent.
The backgammon on your palm pilot is a very mediocre player.
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles | He's a brilliant lunatic and you can't tell
pat...@netcom.com | which way he'll jump... you can't dissect him,
http://www.gammon.com/ | predict him-- which of course means he's not a
or just yell, "Hey, Patti!" | lunatic at all. [From the musical Chess.]
Edward D. Collins
years. I own over 50 books on the subject and consider myself very
knowledgeable on the game.
I also am a big backgammon fan. Lately I can be found playing on many
of the online servers or studying one of my 30 or so books on
backgammon.
Thus, I feel I am qualified to answer your question, or at least give
you my opinion.
I believe backgammon has slightly LESS of a luck factor than poker.
(That's somewhat confusing to read so I'll rephrase it: Backgammon has
more skill to it than poker.)
Backgammon relies on random dice. Poker, on random cards. However,
with poker, when it's your turn to act, you really have just three
decisions:
should I raise?
should I call?
should I fold?
Granted, with draw games you have to decide which cards to throw away.
That certainly is a decision. There may be a few other decisions that
one regularly must decide that I'm forgetting now, (like HOW MUCH to
bet) but most of the time your decision on what to do really does boils
down to the above three choices above.
An inexperienced or poor player could easily come up with the right
answer for the very wrong reason. Shoot, a MONKEY could play several
hands correctly.
When playing backgammon however, with EACH TURN there are usually
SEVERAL choices on how you should move your men. Often times, MANY of
them are quite good.
Because there are more choices involved, I feel that it will take an
expert backgammon player less time to wipe up a backgammon novice than
it will for an expert poker player to wipe up a novice poker player. I
think this is also justified by the expert playing backgammon programs
(Snowie... Jellyfish) that exist today. I'm not aware of a comparable
poker playing program that plays expert strength.
This is one of the reasons why I love both of these games. SKILL is a
big, big factor... and the chumps don't even realize it.
To answer your second question, yes, a novice backgammon player can wipe
out a backgammon pro in the short run... but to me, the "run" is shorter
in backgammon than the "run" in poker.
Just my two cents...
_____________________________________
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MILESFNW <mile...@aol.com> wrote in message
MILESFNW
with poker, when it's your turn to act, you really have just three
decisions:
should I raise?
should I call?
should I fold? >>
I appreciate your response, but I have to disagree with you here.
There is alot of thinking in poker that goes way beyond these three choices. I
just don't think it's as simple as you say it is.
Milesfnw
Edward D. Collins
> beyond these three choices. I just don't think it's
> as simple as you say it is.
No, I'm not saying it is simple at all. There are a LOT of things to
consider before one calls or raises or folds in poker... mannerisms of
your opponents, past history of your opponents, pot odds, probabilites
of your current hand being the best, of your hand improving, etc., etc.,
etc. Poker is NOT an easy game to master by ANY means... but neither is
backgammon. To me, backgammon is slightly harder to "master" and thus
requires slightly more skill.
The more I read about backgammon, the more I realize how little I know.
(And I know a lot.)
I can say the exact same thing about poker, only not as much so.
- Ed Collins
Fredrik Dahl
backgammon
several times. That quiestion is not well-defined. If the players are
equally strong,
it's all luck, and if there is a huge difference in skill, there is almost
no luck.
So the real question is how much effot it takes a nivice to reach a level
where he
has a given probability of beating a pro over a given time session.
In my oppinion, a complete novice will need some months of full-time
training
(with the use of a JF or Snowie computer program :-)).
to reach a level where he would have a 25% chance of being ahead after a
5-hour
moneygame session with a pro. I think it's easier to reach this level in
limit-holdem,
but I could be wrong. I would rate no-limit holdem as harder, but I'm not a
very strong card player myself.
Both for poker and backgammon it takes special talent to ever reach a
world-class
level, of course.
Btw, are there any strong computer programs that can help a player develop
at Poker?
Fredrik Dahl.
> I'm a poker player who knows that skill will win in the long run. I also
know
> that the long run can be a VERY long time, and in the short run, luck can
be a
> killer.
>
> How big is the luck factor in Backgammon? I'm a new player, mostly because
I
> stumbled upon a Backgammon game for my Palm Pilot. I've been playing
against
> that, and doing fairly well, but I don't know how accurate a measurement
of
> skill that particular program is.
>
> Can a novice run over a skilled player in the short run? In poker, a
novice can
> wipe out an experienced pro in the short run. What about Backgammon?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Milesfnw
MILESFNW
at Poker? >>
Indeed. Check out www.wilsonsw.com
Wilson software's Turbo Texas Holdem and Turbo 7 Card Stud are excellent. The
site seems to be down today though.
Milesfnw
Mark Denihan
play; in backgammon you are making educated decisions several times a minute
- in poker, if you are using reasonable starting cards, you may often not
be able to play more than a few hands an hour, or even less. Thus a skill
advantage may take longer to reward you in poker. My own experience and
observations tend to support this - that you may experience longer 'losing
streaks' in poker. In both games a lucky less skillful player can 'run over'
a poker table or chouette for an evening - but not usually for a second or
third consecutive session. So my conclusion is that lucky players in both
games share a similar fate in similar time periods, although a skilled
player may have to wait longer in poker than in backgammon for his or her
monetary reward.
But what about comparing heads-up play in both games, given an intermediate
player pitted against an expert. I believe the intermediate bg player has a
much better chance of winning against an expert over a single session than
an intermediate hold'em player has against against say, a Doyle Brunson or
Stu Unger. The intermediate hold'em player in this situation is no better
off than a steaming turkey on a Thanksgiving table.
All these imho's having been said, i would like to ressurect a twenty year
old quote by the extremely creative Todd Van Der Pluym, an LA bg player who
makes a living traveling around the world building sand-castles... " Even a
pigeon can peck you to death"
mark
'imago' on gamesgrid