I know this will seem like an odd question BUT... :-P
jon crawford
Got a couple of [strange] questions concerning the set-up of the board
and seating arrangements!
In all the rules I can't see anything that mentions how you determine
who is red and who is black/white. Also depending on where you sit, you
either start with two counters on your right or two counters on your
left. So after you've chosen colours (somehow) do you play with your
homeboard closet to you or your opponent? i.e. do you move your counters
closer to your side of the table or your opponents? I know it doesn't
actually matter but if I start playing with the board oriented the
'wrong way round' then if I ever play someone else, other than the
person I'm learning it with, I may find it slightly trickier! With
chess/draughts etc it's a lot simpler because you don't have your pieces
on both sides of the board!
I do hope the question makes sense?!
Playing the computer the board is always oriented the same way up and
I'm always the same colour but in real life I'm not sure what the
correct procedure is :-)
Walt
> In all the rules I can't see anything that mentions how you determine
> who is red and who is black/white. Also depending on where you sit, you
> either start with two counters on your right or two counters on your
> left. So after you've chosen colours (somehow) do you play with your
> homeboard closet to you or your opponent? i.e. do you move your counters
> closer to your side of the table or your opponents?
Play with your homeboard closest to you.
As for which direction and which color, one player will have to play
clockwise while the other plays counter-clockwise, and of course they'll
need to play different colors. If it's my set, I always offer my
opponent the choice of color (so they know the dice aren't crooked).
Otherwise, choice of color and direction is by mutual agreement. If the
other player has a preference, I'll acquiesse since it direction and
color don't matter to me.
That said, almost all my playing is on-line these days and I haven't
done a lot of playing in meatspace. I'd be curious if there are social
conventions for determining color and direction.
//Walt
MikeMain
most practical way in which to play a match; in playing a game you are
(hopefully) going to move your checkers towards one side of the board.
Having your checkers increasingly on your side of the board is just a
more practical thing to be doing than moving them further away from
yourself. The same principle applies to your opponent so this makes
equal sense for both of you.
Backgammon should be played in the spirit of decency. Yes backgammon
is a mind sport but to many people it is a game. Folk play games to
meet others and face a challenge. An argument (before play starts)
over which way round the match is to be played is not going to help
the fun factor of playing the match.
It's likely that one of the two players owns the board the match is to
be played upon. As such the owner of the board already has something
of a "home advantage" because s/he is going to be more familiar with
the actual board than the opponent. This is usually a small matter but
can be significant if the board owner is a highly experienced live
player armed with a very large board while the opponent is a rookie
used to playing on a small board and / or online. So the general
convention is that the player that owns the board offers direction of
play to his/her opponent. Another older convention is that players
"play towards the light." I.E. Towards whichever side of the room is
the brighter. However I understand that this is not a convention in
the U.S.A.
Likewise the owner of the board probably is supplying the dice to be
used. Even if not, the convention is for the 4 dice to be used to be
placed on the board. The Non-Owner selects one dice, the Owner selects
the second dice, Non-Owner select dice number 3 and Owner is left to
select dice number 4. It is also usual for players to select one dice
of each colour. This reduces the chances somewhat of the owner playing
with rigged dice even though we mostly use transparent precision
dice.
Also get used to playing with either colour of checkers. You'll not
always be red. On some boards neither set of checkers are even red.
They could be green and white, black and red, blue and yellow... any
two colours under the sun.
The board, the checkers, the dice - these should just be considered as
the tools with which to play the game. To play the game well you
shouldn't give a damn which tools you use and which tools your
opponent uses.
Once the direction of play, who uses which checker and who uses which
dice is agreed at the start of the match we do NOT aim to alter these
factors during a match. The only time any of these factors should be
altered is if a player is unhappy with the equipment. If this is the
case a Tournament Director should be called to decide if a change of
equipment is actually required and to oversee the change if the T.D.
deems it necessary.
However the above still leaves some scope for arguments so we do
indeed have rules for this:
3.2 Preference
If necessary, the direction of play, equipment, choice of checker
colour and seat location shall be decided by the roll of the highest
die prior to the commencement of play.
3.3 Dice
Either player may demand a mixing of the dice prior to the start of
any game. The demanding player shakes and rolls all four dice then
each selects a die in turn.
Ok, so you are, I think, an online player venturing into live play.
Backgammon is a very visual game that can be, and is, played both ways
round. You should get yourself to the state that it matters not 1 iota
to you which way round a match is played. Be equally adept either way
round. This will come to you with practise. Set yourself a regime of
one day playing clockwise and the next day anti-clockwise. On most
online servers you can alter the direction of play. If the server you
currently play on does not feature this facility - dump it and play on
a server that does have this feature. Within a short space of time
you'll not care which way round you play.
Another reason that this is important is that a favourite trick in
real play is for your already though to next round opponent to come
and watch your match. There’s nothing illegal with this. S/he may
observe which way round you are playing this match and set up the
match with you the other way round. I’ve seen this seemingly simple
thing fluster an online player who never bothers to swap directions
into playing badly live. Don’t let it happen to you. Note: I'm not
suggesting that all live players will pull such a stunt on a rookie
live player; in general they do not because they should also
understand that the rookie live player represents a "player coming
over from the other side" (online play) and is to be encouraged in
playing live. So it's a case of not leaving yourself open to potential
abuse.
Further reading for players coming over to live play:
http://www.backgammoninlondon.com/news/advice_for_virgins.html
Hope this helps.
jon crawford
> Play with your home board closest to you.
(snip)
> used to playing on a small board and / or online. So the general
> convention is that the player that owns the board offers direction of
> play to his/her opponent.
(snip)
Ah, thanks for that. A lot of stuff to read through, but all good and
it clarifies some points. I set the board up according to the diagram
in the instructions that came with it and I was unsure over how to
decide who gets which colour and direction (seems to be omitted rules
I've found online). I've played a few times on my Android phone, and
also GNU Backgammon and more recently William Hill online. These
programs all orient the game so you start from the top right (though
perhaps GNUBG allows you to change direction? I've not played it
recently, so not sure).
I played a game against someone recently, in person with a real board,
and I ended up playing from top-left and I found re-orientating myself a
tad weird at first, as it was like playing in mirror of what I'd usually
do! Also I wasn't sure, after having set the board up, where the people
sit based on their colour choice (home board facing you, or opponent).
It seems that in online play the board gets re-orientated so that you
are always the same colour playing from the top-right. I'm glad I'm able
to get out of this habit as a newbie so I don't find it harder later on,
as I certainly plan on playing some BG in the real-world. There is a
club that meets in my local pub once a week , so after a few more games
against the CPU I might pop down and challenge them.
Thanks again :-)
jon crawford
Thanks Walt :)
tc...@lsa.umich.edu
MikeMain <bginl...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>Even if not, the convention is for the 4 dice to be used to be
>placed on the board.
One variant to consider is to use just two dice instead of four. That is,
both players use the same set of dice. This might seem odd to those who
have never played this way, but historically this is how the game was
usually played, and there is a trend nowadays in tournaments towards using
just two dice and using a clock to limit your thinking. You end your turn
not by picking up your dice but by punching your clock, and then your
opponent picks up the dice to roll.
--
Tim Chow tchow-at-alum-dot-mit-dot-edu
The range of our projectiles---even ... the artillery---however great, will
never exceed four of those miles of which as many thousand separate us from
the center of the earth. ---Galileo, Dialogues Concerning Two New Sciences
David C. Ullrich
<jon.cra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Got a couple of [strange] questions [...] I know it doesn't
>actually matter but if I start playing with the board oriented the
>'wrong way round' then if I ever play someone else, other than the
>person I'm learning it with, I may find it slightly trickier!
You really need to learn to play both ways.
I'm surprised nobody's said so already - on the one hand it seems
obvious, but on the other hand it seems not so obvious to you or
you wouldn't be asking the question.
Various comments on which direction to play and how this should be
determined are great, but regardless, you need to learn to play
both ways. Say you can play clockwise but feel uncomfortable
playing counterclockwise. Some day you run into another player
who also can only play clockwise. Now you're stuck.
It seems confusing at first but it will only be a problem for one
or two games, honest. You and the person you're learning with
should _alternate_, so you both learn to play both ways.
After just a few games it will be no problem anymore.
Paul
...
>
> You really need to learn to play both ways.
>
> I'm surprised nobody's said so already - ...
Perhaps this would be surprising if it were true but it's clearly
false.
Here's a copy-paste from MikeMain's posting:
BEGIN QUOTE
Ok, so you are, I think, an online player venturing into live play.
Backgammon is a very visual game that can be, and is, played both ways
round. You should get yourself to the state that it matters not 1 iota
to you which way round a match is played. Be equally adept either way
round. This will come to you with practise. Set yourself a regime of
one day playing clockwise and the next day anti-clockwise. On most
online servers you can alter the direction of play. If the server you
currently play on does not feature this facility - dump it and play on
a server that does have this feature. Within a short space of time
you'll not care which way round you play.
END QUOTE
Paul Epstein
David C. Ullrich
<paulde...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Jan 14, 1:26�pm, David C. Ullrich <ullr...@math.okstate.edu> wrote:
>
>...
>>
>> You really need to learn to play both ways.
>>
>> I'm surprised nobody's said so already - ...
>
>Perhaps this would be surprising if it were true but it's clearly
>false.
>
>Here's a copy-paste from MikeMain's posting:
It's certainly a good thing you included that quote - there's
clearly no way that just pointing out that he'd already said
this would have sufficed.
I was bad. You're right, I was bad bad bad.
He was bad too, starting the most important part of his reply
after 68 lines of other comments.
>BEGIN QUOTE
>Ok, so you are, I think, an online player venturing into live play.
>Backgammon is a very visual game that can be, and is, played both ways
>round. You should get yourself to the state that it matters not 1 iota
>to you which way round a match is played. Be equally adept either way
>round. This will come to you with practise. Set yourself a regime of
>one day playing clockwise and the next day anti-clockwise. On most
>online servers you can alter the direction of play. If the server you
>currently play on does not feature this facility - dump it and play on
>a server that does have this feature. Within a short space of time
>you'll not care which way round you play.
>END QUOTE
>
>Paul Epstein
>
David C. Ullrich
"Understanding Godel isn't about following his formal proof.
That would make a mockery of everything Godel was up to."
(John Jones, "My talk about Godel to the post-grads."
in sci.logic.)
jon crawford
> You really need to learn to play both ways.
>
> I'm surprised nobody's said so already - on the one hand it seems
> obvious, but on the other hand it seems not so obvious to you or
> you wouldn't be asking the question.
So far, I only have people to play withthat have played a handful of
times and don't know the rules too well. And when I play against ANY
computer program, anticlockwise seems to be the default (as do the dark
pieces). Because of this when I played the other direction for the first
time it seemed a bit unnatural - and I had to think more! Not only that
but in all versions of the rules I've found so far online, there is
never any mention to how you determine which colour you use and which
direction that colour uses (it seems the two things are entirely
independent anyway). I have seen a few examples on the net that states
dark plays anticlockwise, yet I've seen diagrams of a board setup where
dark plays clockwise so that just seems to confuse things (and me!).
> Various comments on which direction to play and how this should be
> determined are great, but regardless, you need to learn to play
> both ways. Say you can play clockwise but feel uncomfortable
> playing counterclockwise. Some day you run into another player
> who also can only play clockwise. Now you're stuck.
Well so far I'm finding playing clockwise slightly, err, cumbersome. I'm
going to play quite a few games in that direction now to get accustomed
to it so that it feels natural. Then I will alternate. :D
jon crawford
> after 68 lines of other comments.
Yeah, sorry about that :) But even despite the fact that most of my
games are computer based so far, the main problem I've had is that I
don't know any human backgammon players! Part of that, I guess, is due
to me being in the UK and most people having not ever played, and in
some cases heard, of it. Until the choice of colour/direction game up
in a real game, right at the very beginning no less, it being a problem
had never crossed my mind before.
Very strange this stuff isn't covered in any rules. Or maybe most
people learn to play by being taught by other people rather than working
it out for themselves from a set of rules like I did?
Walt
> but in all versions of the rules I've found so far online, there is
> never any mention to how you determine which colour you use and which
> direction that colour uses (it seems the two things are entirely
> independent anyway).
Not only are they independent, color and direction are irrelevant.
Unlike chess, where white plays the first move, there is no advantage of
a particular color or direction. It just doesn't matter.
And since it doesn't matter, there are no elaborate rules for
determining it. Just come to some agreement with your opponent and
start playing. If your opponent is so disagreeable that you can't agree
on direction and color, you're probably better off not playing him.
//Walt
Grunty
Why taking things to such an extreme.
Those disagreements use to be solved in the romantic style: challenge
to a dice duel. He who survives gets the priority in choice.
Peter Schneider
"Walt" <walt_...@SHOESyahoo.com> wrote
> If your opponent is so disagreeable that you can't agree on direction and
> color, you're probably better off not playing him.
Om the contrary. If he's so bad that he needs to play in a certain
direction you should play him at the highest possible stakes.
Peter aka the juggler
David C. Ullrich
<jon.cra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>* David C. Ullrich wrote:
>> He was bad too, starting the most important part of his reply
>> after 68 lines of other comments.
>
>Yeah, sorry about that :) But even despite the fact that most of my
>games are computer based so far, the main problem I've had is that I
>don't know any human backgammon players!
That's too bad. You were born 20 or 30 years too late...
>Part of that, I guess, is due
>to me being in the UK and most people having not ever played, and in
>some cases heard, of it. Until the choice of colour/direction game up
>in a real game, right at the very beginning no less, it being a problem
>had never crossed my mind before.
>
>Very strange this stuff isn't covered in any rules. Or maybe most
>people learn to play by being taught by other people rather than working
>it out for themselves from a set of rules like I did?
There _are_ no rules regarding which direction the players play.
That's because it really doesn't matter. I know it matters if you've
only played in one direction, but you'll get over that very quickly.
(Actually you should probably practice playing both ways with whatever
computer program you're using - gnubg for one allows you to change
the direction.)
All the things people have said are just conventions and suggestions,
not rules.
David C. Ullrich
Heh. Years ago my sister and I used to play sometimes. She was
restricted to one direction, alas the highest possible stakes were
$0.00 per point.
>Peter aka the juggler
>
Peter Schneider
"David C. Ullrich" <ull...@math.okstate.edu> wrote
> There _are_ no rules regarding which direction the players play.
Just to be nitpicking: Mike presented the biba rules (3.2 dealt with
deciding direction and checker color by rolling a die) which seem to be
equivalent to the wbf
rules:(http://www.wbfonline.com/wbfrules/wbfrules.html).
Best,
Peter aka the juggler
David C. Ullrich
Sorry, thanks. Seems like everything I say in this thread is a lie.