Query - a square relative of Hex
christian
mean 'Hex on a square board' because Mark's Atoll covers that
effectively, I would have ended up empty handed. That's what can make
game inventing a very tedious affair. I found out the hard way that
you can't, to paraphrase Nietzsche, "stare into a dead end street
without having it stare back at you".
Inventing games is paying attention. I'm working on a mindsports
section called "The Evolution of Draughts Variants", and it includes a
chapter on grids. Topologically speaking, the hexgrid is equivalent
with its dual grid, that is the triangular grid. This one in turn is
equivalent with a square grid with _one_ added set of diagonals.
Now take a square grid with _both_ sets of diagonals, then there are
two ways to remove half of them:
1. Remove all diagonals that run in one direction - you get the
hexgrid equivalent.
2. Remove half the diagonals of both directions - you get the
'alquerque' grid.
So these two grids have a common ancestor and a similar way of
emerging from it - here's where the 'paying attention' comes in: I
started wondering if these 'twingrids' might share some
characteristics, in other words, could the most basic game on the
hexgrid have a twin on the alquerque grid?
So Query put itself together in the most logical way. The most
prominent difference was that in hex all cells are c6, while in Query
half of them were c8 and half of them c4.
And that's where I stopped paying attention. I thought, well this
works, it's finite, someone will win, thought little more of it and
posted it at BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/5175688#5175688
Michael Howe mentioned the imbalance immediately, and suggested a
solution that went back to our old friend Wayne Schmittberger: allow
two c4 moves or one c8 move per turn. That fitted perfectly, but still
I left the game largely where it was: on the shelf.
But today I worked on a not too illogical game position as an example,
so I had to actually play against myself (in Superpaint - I have no
boards). I soon found out that mistakes are easily made and that many
Hex-like choices present themselves, and most importantly that the
double c4 option is critical throughout.
So here's the closest thing to 'square Hex', and the explanation why
you can't get there by trying, however hard:
http://mindsports.nl/index.php/how-i-invented-games-and-why-not/late-arrivals-a-final-whispers#query
Jackspritz
great it's Quax rotated 45 degrees. I would be nicer about it but not
if it's rec.bile.insult.
christian
>
> great it's Quax rotated 45 degrees. I would be nicer about it but not if it's rec.bile.insult.
It's a game and it should be nicer indeed if you judged it on its
merits. You seem to imply that a game may be different depending on
where it is published.
About paying attention, the Query and the Quax board are not
topologically equivalent, nor can a player in Quax separate the two
square moves implied in the diagonal connection.
I expected you to be fair, if not to me, then at least with regard to
how a game should be judged.
Jackspritz
> It's a game and it should be nicer indeed if you judged it on its
> merits.
Merits? Where?
>You seem to imply that a game may be different depending on
> where it is published.
I'm implying that it's not very interesting.
> About paying attention, the Query and the Quax board are not
> topologically equivalent,
No? Oh right the Query board is rotated 45 degrees, like I mentioned
>nor can a player in Quax separate the two
> square moves implied in the diagonal connection.
Okay then I turn your attention to Stymie http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/57814/stymie
Still not the exact same thing but now we have a truncated square
tiling and multiple moves in a turn.
> I expected you to be fair, if not to me, then at least with regard to
> how a game should be judged.
Christian did you Go to the all boy's school for Weasel Words?
christian
> > It's a game and it should be nicer indeed if you judged it on its
> > merits.
>
> Merits? Where?
> I'm implying that it's not very interesting.
Then why waste words on it?
> > About paying attention, the Query and the Quax board are not topologically equivalent,
> No? Oh right the Query board is rotated 45 degrees, like I mentioned.
Mentioning it doesn't make it true. The 45 degrees rotated alquerque
board is the 'kharbaga' board
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharbaga
http://mindsports.nl/index.php/arena/draughts/506-kharbaga
Characteristically in the first half the diagonals are missing in
alquerque, half the orthogonals in kharbaga.
Topologically these two are equivalent, and neither is equivalent with
a square board where all diagonals are present.
>
> Okay then I turn your attention to Stymiehttp://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/57814/stymie
> Still not the exact same thing but now we have a truncated square tiling and multiple moves in a turn.
Yes, that's why they're different, Query has no truncated square
tiling, nor is it topologically equivalent.
>
> > I expected you to be fair, if not to me, then at least with regard to
> > how a game should be judged.
> Christian did you Go to the all boy's school for Weasel Words?
No, but I just left the Grand Academy for applied Mediocrity ;-)
Jackspritz
> On Nov 14, 11:02 pm, Jackspritz <schackow...@live.com> wrote:> > It's a game and it should be nicer indeed if you judged it on its
> > > merits.
>
> > Merits? Where?
>
> Don't you think that's cheap?
Yes but I don't need to hold my posts to a very high standard on
rec.bile.insult
> > I'm implying that it's not very interesting.
>
> Then why waste words on it?
because you brought it up and I have bile and insult to expel about
it. That's what we do at rec.bile.insult
> > > About paying attention, the Query and the Quax board are not topologically equivalent,
> > No? Oh right the Query board is rotated 45 degrees, like I mentioned.
>
> Mentioning it doesn't make it true. The 45 degrees rotated alquerque
> board is the 'kharbaga' boardhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharbagahttp://mindsports.nl/index.php/arena/draughts/506-kharbaga
> Characteristically in the first half the diagonals are missing in
> alquerque, half the orthogonals in kharbaga.
> Topologically these two are equivalent, and neither is equivalent with
> a square board where all diagonals are present.
> Yes, that's why they're different, Query has no truncated square
> tiling, nor is it topologically equivalent.
But the Kharbaga board is isomorphic to a truncated square tiling. We
have intersections with valency 8 which connect to eachother
orthogonally and they each connect to valency 4 intersections
diagonally. Sorry but it's just a rehash. It's appropriate that you'd
post you lamest game to this forum however. I give you props for
that.
> No, but I just left the Grand Academy for applied Mediocrity ;-)
and now we're all here at the University of Bullshit. Small world
indeed.
christian
> and now we're all here at the University of Bullshit. Small world indeed.
I must conclude that your idolizing comments prior to my departure
were just flattery and that you're being resentful, as if I betrayed
you.
If you post your answer in your own group, then you'll have a new post
there ;-)
Jackspritz
> I must conclude that your idolizing comments prior to my departure
> were just flattery and that you're being resentful, as if I betrayed
> you.
My comments were never idolizing, just supportive and respectful. What
you did was very childish, especially the trail of spam you left
behind for me to clean up before deactivating your account. Don't make
a thread about how you're leaving my group, "especially not one so
dramatic" just get lost already. Nobody prepared a fanfare of "Pop
Goes the Weasel" for your exit. My earlier comments were about
Havannah not lame old Query. I never liked Query and I never will like
Query.
christian
Ok, fair enough :)
marks...@gmail.com
On 14-Nov-2010, Jackspritz <schac...@live.com> wrote:
> What you did was very childish, especially the trail of spam
> you left behind for me to clean up before deactivating your
> account.
Looks like you've joined me on the list of banned world renowned designers
at Corey Clark's fake newsgroup. Who will be next? lol
marks...@gmail.com
On 14-Nov-2010, marks...@gmail.com wrote:
> Looks like you've joined me on the list of banned world renowned
> designers...
That was directed to Christian, and only Christian.
Jackspritz
> On 14-Nov-2010, markste...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Looks like you've joined me on the list of banned world renowned
> > designers...
>
> That was directed to Christian, and only Christian.
Fuck you. Christian's certainly not banned. He resigned from the group
himself which was just a little bit of an overreaction to one goofball
who said something negative about one of his games. I mean where is he
going to discuss games? Here? rofl, good luck...
marks...@gmail.com
On 14-Nov-2010, Jackspritz <schac...@live.com> wrote:
> Yes but I don't need to hold my posts to a very high standard on
> rec.bile.insult
Clark, just buzz off! Nobody wants to be at your stupid, fake newsgroup and
normal people like me and Christian and Michael Howe want to have a
discussion here.
Show of hands - Would anybody object if Corey Clark buzzed off?
Jackspritz
marks...@gmail.com
On 14-Nov-2010, Jackspritz <schac...@live.com> wrote:
> I mean where is he going to discuss games? Here?
Why not? Because the one remaining voice of stupity, Corey Clark, won't
stand for it? lol
Clark! Newsflash! Nobody is intimidated by you! You're a buffoon!
Jackspritz
> On Nov 14, 4:45 pm, markste...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On 14-Nov-2010, Jackspritz <schackow...@live.com> wrote:
>
>Nobody wants to be at your stupid, fake newsgroup
If you haven't noticed this is the fake group...
Jackspritz
> On 14-Nov-2010, Jackspritz <schackow...@live.com> wrote:
>
> > I mean where is he going to discuss games? Here?
>
> Why not? Because the one remaining voice of stupity, Corey Clark, won't
> stand for it? lol
>
> Clark! Newsflash! Nobody is intimidated by you! You're a buffoon!
lol INTIMIDATION? That's what you thought I was going for here? Nope,
sorry mate, perpetual annoyance is the game. No wonder you've been
losing, you actually take this place seriously. What a goofy fucker.
Mark Steere
> perpetual annoyance is the game.
Clark why do you have no life? You're 18. Get a girlfriend or a
boyfriend. Go out and fuck something.
christian
> > > About paying attention, the Query and the Quax board are not topologically equivalent,
> > No? Oh right the Query board is rotated 45 degrees, like I mentioned.
>
rotation, but barring that you're absolutely right.
It doesn't change the fact though that Query differs in its choice
between one c8 or two arbitrary c4's.
I choose Query because I wanted something simple to discuss, not to
start a revolution. There's a lot of square connection games out there
and a number of them could be argued to be 'square relatives of Hex'.
I'm glad though that you think it's it my lamest game. Makes the
others look good :)
christian
> Christian's certainly not banned. He resigned from the group
> himself which was just a little bit of an overreaction to one goofball
> who said something negative about one of his games. I mean where is he
> going to discuss games? Here? rofl, good luck...
Thank you, I may need that indeed. I'm glad however that we agree on
Bill Taylor.
Bill Taylor
> > himself which was just a little bit of an overreaction to one goofball
> > who said something negative about one of his games.
> > I mean where is he going to discuss games? Here? rofl, good luck...
>
> Thank you, I may need that indeed.
> I'm glad however that we agree on Bill Taylor.
Carry on with that thought if it makes you happy.
The sad fact is that you can't even take the tiniest bit of
criticism of one of your games, without considering it
as a personal affront!
Well. With an attitude like that, no wonder you're happy
keeping Stark Mere company! Certainly with that personality
trait, RGC is much better off without you!
-- b
marks...@gmail.com
On 16-Nov-2010, Bill Taylor <wfc.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The sad fact is that you [Christian Freeling] can't even take
> the tiniest bit of criticism of one of your games, without
> considering it as a personal affront!
It *was* a personal affront, you idiot!! Calling an industry giant's game
"ugly" is about as affrontive as it gets, Minister of Mediocrity!! Is that
your idea of constructive criticism?? What's Freeling supposed to do, scrap
his modern classic that's brought joy to thousands because the Minister of
Mediocrity thinks it's ugly?? Why should Freeling have to take your shit,
Minister of Mediocrity????
If I understand Freeling's objection, it wasn't that you insulted him. It
was that you made an absurd, derogatory claim about his game, and then ran
off without explaining yourself. He was offended by your cowardice, as were
we all, not your crass insult.
Bill, when you run out on your own topic like that, you leave people
guessing. You also did that with your Christmas Tree Y. Still unanswered
group question to Bill Taylor: "Why are you congratulating yourself for a
game that's 100% isomorphic to Y? Basically Y with a decorative fringe."
Possible Bill Taylor answers, had he not suddenly run out on his own topic:
1. "Sorry guys, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking, lol Do you
mind if we move past this shit?"
Sure Bill, no problem. Thanks for your honesty.
2. "No, you guys totally missed the point. Of course Christmas Tree Y is
isomorphic to Y, lol. The point I was trying to make was..."
Yes, Bill?
3. "What?? You don't see how Christmas Tree Y is different from ordinary
Y?? What's wrong with you people..."
Rofl, Bill.
Bill, we all know exactly what you did and exactly why you did it. You
walked up behind the new guy with a boner sticking out of your pants and
tapped him on the shoulder. Only instead of cordially bending over and
spreading his butt cheeks for you, Freeling spun around a delivered a swift
knee to your groin!
Now you come limping back two days later with a bent dick and a tale of woe.
Woeful fucking Willy!!
> Well. With an attitude like that, no wonder you're happy
> keeping Stark Mere company!
What, you can't say my name now? What the fuck is wrong with you??
christian
> The sad fact is that you can't even take the tiniest bit of
> criticism of one of your games, without considering it
> as a personal affront!
>
'casual remarks' as such.
I do feel however that closing the door on the general public doesn't
exactly convey an openness to criticism, or a display of 'courage'.
Jackspritz
lol I closed the door on the forum so Mark wouldn't have so many
tidbits to write (poor old bastard, you know he tries). It was Bill's
idea to make it publicly viewable in the first place. I much prefer
the current set up and it's going to stay this way. No more troll
food. We'll conduct the Manhattan project in the shadows. k thanks,
bye.
marks...@gmail.com
On 17-Nov-2010, Jackspritz <schac...@live.com> wrote:
> It was Bill's idea to make it publicly viewable in the first place.
> I much prefer the current set up and it's going to stay this way.
What's it like to be thrown under the bus by your own understudy, Corey
Clark, Bill? That's about as trampled as you can get! lol
christian
> We'll conduct the Manhattan project in the shadows.
http://mindsports.nl/index.php/the-pit/query-548
I wonder if they're all lame, or can you point out which ones are?
C'mon, make some friends :)
Why, by the way, doesn't google bump recent posts to the top?
Jackspritz
I couldn't help but notice you missed one. I won't hold it against you
though, everybody makes mistakes. ;)
christian
> I couldn't help but notice you missed one. I won't hold it against you
> though, everybody makes mistakes. ;)
Lol, I can imagine you won't believe this, but I actually forgot :(
It was not intentional and it's fixed now :)
P.S. If there are more obvious omissions, please let me know. It's
quite a family, when put together.