Arimaa grandmaster society
Mark Steere
scalable.
-Mark
Mark Steere Games
http://marksteeregames.com
Mark Steere
> Please define 'infinity problem', and provide an example of an actual
> game that demonstrates the problem. There are several thousand games
> that you can investigate for any proof at the arimaa web site.
Arimaa is, in combinatorial game theory parlance, an infinite game.
After a couple years of serious play, Arimaa is already starting to
show signs of wear - drawish play. It's not like I made this up. I
read it in your forum.
"We have seen occasional positions that tended toward stalemate and
piece shuffling... I consider it unlikely that playing to win at
Arimaa will drive us toward such corners of the position space,"
I consider it inevitable that Arimaa will drive itself into a corner.
"Several thousand games" don't mean squat when most of them were
between clueless beginners. It's the current standard of expert play
you have to look at.
Arimaa seems to be poised for world domination, reading the Arimaa
forum. Like Chess, Arimaa will be awash in draws before anything
resembling grandmaster level play emerges. Switching from Chess to
Arimaa would be like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire,
minus the checkmate.
Arimaa has the exact same problem as Chess. The fixed board size and
fixed set of pieces are set to make beginner and intermediate play
appealing, making them inadequate for extreme expert play. Since the
games are non-scalable, experts can only repeatedly thrash a too
small, wrung out game.
fizzy
top players in Arimaa? If it is already significant before true
grandmasters have emerged, then it might have a long term problem.
But let's keep in mind that Shogi, which is also infinite on a board
of about the same size, has supported very high level grandmaster play
for centuries with only about a 2% draw rate, without scaling. It is
still possible that Arimaa might go down the shogi path, or something
like it. I like Arimaa, while not being very good at it, and I will
hold out some hope that it has staying power.
Mark Steere
> It might be too soon to tell.
Of course, but I'm responding to the endless diatribe of Arimaa forum
statements such as:
"As I look to the future, I have a glimmer of what must be built to
allow Arimaa to reach its full potential. My book has been such a
hassle to write that I shudder to ask anyone else to go through the
process, but Arimaa will need more books than mine."
What is this, Trax II? Please, not another frantically overhyped
commercial game.
fizzy
>
> Currently, the draw rate for Arimaa is 0%. It used to be possible to
> reach a draw, but there was a rule change a few years back that
> resolved that, and now there just aren't any draws. You can check the
> game history on the site to check this fact.
Do you mean this rule: "If after a turn the same board position and
side to move would occur for the third time, then that move is illegal
and the player must select a different move. If in the rare case the
only moves a player has are not allowed then the player loses due to
being unable to make a move. " ? If so, that is a variant of a rule
known as superko and such a rule could be used to render almost any
infinite game drawless, including chess. I don't consider it a
desirable solution to the problem of draw by infinite play, although
plenty of games use it, like Go and Xiang Qi, so there is a
tradition. To what extent does Arimaa depend on this rule to maintain
a low draw rate?
Mark Steere
>
> It used to be possible to reach a draw, but there was a rule change a
> few years back that resolved that, and now there just aren't any draws.
Well of course, dumb ass. You added superko, the world's ugliest
rule.
Are you by any chance a member of Iago?
Mark Steere
>
> Mark,
>
> Again... Facts? I've asked for facts, but I saw nothing of substance
> in your last post. I've given you links to the data in my previous
> post.
You want facts, Thomas? Here's a fact: You're a lying Thomas. You
said draws statistically never occur in Arimaa, the implication being
that the rules discourage draws to a high degree. In truth, the real
reason there are no draws is because the Arimaa program enforces
superko, the world's ugliest rule, a rule that by definition prevents
a game from cycling. That's why there are no draws, retard.
Fuck the misleading data in your previous post, you idiot!
Mark Steere
>
> My statements were factual. I did not lie.
Well, lying Thomas, effectively you really did lie. You were quoting
the zero statistic in support of your claim that Arimaa is ultra-
resistant to draws. In fact, the real reason for the zero statistic
is programmatic superko enforcement, something you were fully aware of
but "neglected" to mention.
Yeah, maybe your statements, taken individually, were factually
correct. But you tried to perpetrate a hoax here at
rec.games.abstract, lying Thomas - something that will not be
forgotten.
> If, however, any superko like rule ruins games for you,
> then Go and chess must not be good enough either.
Chess and Go are good enough, but Arimaa isn't. There's no excuse for
a modern game incorporating superko. Standards, people. Standards.
Nick Bentley
Mark is a very theoretically-oriented due who designs from first
principles, and from that point of view, superko rules are icky. But
he's not a player and has a hard time seeing things from that point of
view. Also, the only way to deal with the ad hominem attacks is to
drop the thread.
Nick
On May 25, 9:24 am, Thomas <thomas.f...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Again, ad hominem attacks are a logical fallacy. If you want to pick
> out any of the facts I have presented and prove that they are false,
> that is fair game. Calling me a liar has no logical merit with
> respect to this discussion.
>
> > Chess and Go are good enough, but Arimaa isn't. There's no excuse for
> > a modern game incorporating superko. Standards, people. Standards.
>
> Some people find that the fact that chess has many draws at higher
> levels makes it less exciting to watch. A choice was made to make
> Arimaa virtually draw proof. There have been no draws since the rule
> regarding capturing all rabbits was changed a few years ago, so the
> rules have succeeded so far in creating a draw proof game.
>
> I wasn't aware of any ban on the use of superko like rules in modern
> games. If you can site your source, I'd appreciate it.
>
> With respect to Arimaa play, the 3 repeat (superko like) rule is there
> to avoid draws, but I have only seen it used to win a game tactically
> one time in hundreds of games that I've watched or played. I think
> that focusing on superko and how it is used in Arimaa is like focusing
> on the 50 move rule in chess. It's important for edge cases, but
> fails to touch on any of the richer aspects of the game.
Mark Steere
> Thomas,
>
> Mark is a very theoretically-oriented due who designs from first
> principles, and from that point of view, superko rules are icky. But
> he's not a player and has a hard time seeing things from that point of
> view. Also, the only way to deal with the ad hominem attacks is to
> drop the thread.
Nick, please don't join a discussion that's already ended and call for
an end to the discussion. It wasn't about superko or ickiness. It
was about a lying Thomas using the zero draw rate at the Arimaa server
to "prove" his claim that Arimaa is ultra resistant to draws.
Remember the "We have seen occasional positions that tended toward
stalemate and piece shuffling [in Arimaa]..."? The statement that led
to lying Thomas' masterful Three Card Monte performance? Oh, that's
right. You haven't read the preceding discussion.
Once again, the Arimaa server draw rate is zero *because the server
enforces superko*, *not because Arimaa is ultra resistant to draws*, a
claim that remains unsubstantiated.
I was bamboozled by the lying Thomas, not that that's hard to do.
Fizzy wasn't fooled for one second though. Good job fizzy. Refuters
1, Bullshitters 0.
Do you guys understand what ad hominem means? The statement "Thomas
lied to the group about Arimaa, and therefore he's a lying Thomas and
an idiot," is not ad hominem. Acknowledging someone's idiocy doesn't
constitute ad hominem, Nick.
Mark Steere
>
> Note the draw column. It reads '0' in all cases.
Congratulations, stupid Thomas. The draw column of every infinite
game with superko, including Arimaa, "reads '0' in all cases". What's
your point, stupid Thomas? That you're not a lying Thomas? That
you're really just totally stupid? Ok, have it your way, stupid
Thomas.
Mark Steere
>
> I wasn't aware of any ban on the use of superko like
> rules in modern games. If you can site your source,
> I'd appreciate it.
How many times can you miss the same point in one topic, stupid
Thomas? Let me put it in the form of a question. See if that gets us
anywhere.
You've mentioned the zeroed out draw column of the Arimaa server a
number of times, stupid Thomas. What significance do you ascribe to a
zeroed out draw column in a game with superko?
Mark Steere
>
> What Significance so I ascribe to a zeroed out draw column? Before I
> answer that,
[Watch, the brainless shit never answers the question.]
> let me be clear that the original question had to do with
> this quote:
>
> "We have seen occasional positions that tended toward stalemate and
> piece shuffling... I consider it unlikely that playing to win at
> Arimaa will drive us toward such corners of the position space,"
>
> The data I have shown earlier in this thread shows that draws have not
> happened to this point in actual play.
That's right, stupid Thomas. The question is, Why is that significant
in a game with superko?
> this quote was taken out of context from a theoretical discussion
> about the future of Arimaa.
"Out of context"? The fact that "[Arimaa players] have seen
occasional positions that tended toward stalemate and piece shuffling"
is being presented out of context? Tell us, stupid Thomas, what
context should the observed, drawish play of Arimaa be viewed in??
> Now, for the significance of the 3 time repetition rule.
Dumb ass, you're answering the wrong question. Remember, a few short
lines back, when you said "What Significance so I ascribe to a zeroed
out draw column? Before I answer that..."?
When are you going to answer that, shit brain?
> Finally, you have the right to continue referring to me as dumb ass,
> stupid, lying, and the like.
Yes, and you have the right to continue being a stupid, lying, dumb
ass, and the like - a right which you've apparently chosen to
exercise.
> However, I will not respond to any further posts from you
> on any forum if your next post contains any of those terms,
> or anything similar to them.
Fine. Get the fuck out of here, stupid, lying, dumbass, and the
like. I thought you were already gone. You're following in the
footsteps of Korneliussen. Stunned from your last bitch slap, you
come reeling back for another one.
> Have a nice day.
Fuck off.
luigi
I know your fondness of extreme, say, purity in abstract games, so I
fully understand that you do not like arimaa. Maybe you will be a
little more interested in a naturally finite arimaa variant which was
devised some years ago by Bram Cohen, the creator of BitTorrent. It's
very simple to play, and the mechanics it uses to keep the game going
without rushing it into an early end are quite clever. In fact, a
simple calculation tells us that the average game will last about 70
moves... in a 5x5 board! You should really take a look at it; it is
called Pushee:
http://bramcohen.livejournal.com/2005/04/16/
I haven't seen this game being talked about a lot, so I thought that
you (and everyone else here) may not know it yet. I think it is also
more scalable than arimaa, but IMHO arimaa (as well as chess) is more
or less scalable too...
Harald Korneliussen
> You're following in the
> footsteps of Korneliussen.
In a sense, he is. By now there are a lot who have gone from "That
Mark Steere might have some personality issues, but we should give him
a chance, right?" to "OK, that loon is a lost cause".
Mark Steere
> On May 26, 12:36 am, Mark Steere <markste...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You're following in the footsteps of Korneliussen.
>
> might have some personality issues, but we should give him
> a chance, right?"
You wanted to give me a chance? lol How generous, and egocentric of
you.
Mark Steere
You're tolerated.
You should be totally enthused about the new bgg abstract games
forum. There are tons of retards there, exactly like you, who want to
talk about the same me-too, retarded shit that you do, such as "My
favorite Gipf game". It's a Mark Steere free zone. There couldn't be
a more perfect place for you. What's the problem?
Mark Steere
the time. I've given it some thought and I've discovered I have a
compliment for you. While you are unfathomably stupid, interrupting a
discussion of the advantage the pie rule confers to Player 2 to inform
everyone that it's actually Player 1 who has the advantage, you're not
as stupid as Hutnik.