Three Musketeers solved
Johannes Laire
FYI, I've strongly solved Three Musketeers. Never heard of it? Check
out the Wikipedia article or Vying Games:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Musketeers_(game)
http://vying.org/games/three_musketeers
I also implemented the rules in JavaScript and wrote a simple AI that
uses the database to play 'optimally'. You can try it here, if you
want: http://laire.dy.fi/3M/ . If anyone's interested in the source
code, let me know.
Unfortunately, the game feels quite uninteresting to me. I can't get
any insightful strategy out of the optimal moves, just lots of
tactics.
--
Johannes Laire
Mark Steere
> FYI, I've strongly solved Three Musketeers.
Oh bravo.
> Unfortunately, the game feels quite uninteresting to me.
If it's uninteresting to you, imagine how it must seem to us. Just
what this group needs, another bore monger.
-Mark
Mark Steere Games
http://marksteeregames.com
Johannes Laire
> On Oct 10, 1:22 am, Johannes Laire <johannes.la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > FYI, I've strongly solved Three Musketeers.
>
> Oh bravo.
Oh thank you.
> > Unfortunately, the game feels quite uninteresting to me.
>
> If it's uninteresting to you, imagine how it must seem to us.
Solving it was a really interesting programming challenge, and
watching a few dozen optimal games quite fun. It certainly
doesn't compare to games like Go, but I thought some people
here might be interested, it is an abstract strategy game after all.
The reason I decided to solve it was that 3M is played at Vying
Games and many users have found that it's an unfair game.
With my program I found that just changing the starting
position is enough to fix the problem, making it almost even.
> Just what this group needs, another bore monger.
I've been developing a Cephalopod AI recently. I've even played the
game against you and, curiously, you appeared to have absolutely
no idea of basic strategy or common sense. I think it's best that I
abandon that project and work on something else instead; your mental
health might not be able to handle *another* abstract strategy game
program... certainly not on rec.games.abstract!
--
Johannes Laire
Phil Carmody
> Mark Steere wrote:
>> On Oct 10, 1:22 am, Johannes Laire <johannes.la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Just what this group needs, another bore monger.
>
> I've been developing a Cephalopod AI recently. I've even played the
> game against you and, curiously, you appeared to have absolutely
> no idea of basic strategy or common sense.
Just what this group needs, another Mark Steere baiter.
'-)
Phil (who thinks he programmed a cephalopod AI too at some point...)
--
Any true emperor never needs to wear clothes. -- Devany on r.a.s.f1
Mark Steere
>
> I've been developing a Cephalopod AI recently.
You weren't the first and you won't be the last. You admire my game
yet you introduce yourself by disrespecting me in another thread.
> I've even played the
> game against you and, curiously, you appeared to have absolutely
> no idea of basic strategy or common sense.
Nothing curious about it. I candidly admit I'm not very good at
playing games. My inspirations for getting into design were Go and
Reversi, though I never played them until years after I started
designing. Cephalopod and Atoll are two of my most popular games but
they're way outside my grokosphere so I seldom play them.
> I think it's best that I
> abandon that project and work on something else instead;
I really don't give a shit. Everything in this field progresses on a
geological time scale. I've been designing for 17 years and my games
have only started to become popular in the last five. I don't have
the words to express how little impact Johannes Laire's involvement or
lack of involvement will have on the slow but steady growth of my
games.
> your mental
> health might not be able to handle *another* abstract strategy game
> program... certainly not on rec.games.abstract!
You might have enough to worry about with your own mental health.
Here you're abandoning a game program because you don't like the game
designer. What a little baby!
Johannes Laire
> You admire my game
No I don't. I have played it only 16 times total. It seems to be
almost entirely tactics without much deep strategy, which makes
it very well suited for a computer player. I'm very interested in CGT
and it could be applied, too, but I've decided that Pah Tum is a
better game for that. (Simpler rules, no capturing, board gets
divided to separate areas more often than in Cephalopod.)
> yet you introduce yourself by disrespecting me in another thread.
I asked a fair question in a respectful way.
Yeah, I know what they say about feeding trolls. My apologies.
I will not reply to you again and you're free to do the same.
--
Johannes Laire
Mark Steere
> On Nov 8, 3:00 am, Mark Steere <markste...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You admire my game
>
> No I don't.
Oh right! You wrote a fucking program for it and you don't admire
it! What a turd you are!!
> I will not reply to you again and you're free to do the same.
You're free to shut the fuck up and I really wish you would! Piss off
you fag!!
Bill Taylor
> I candidly admit I'm not very good at playing games.
Why stop there?
> My inspirations for getting into design were
...the opportunity to spit venom all over this newsgroup?
> they're way outside my grokosphere so I seldom play them.
A shame that you aren't so far out of ours...
> I really don't give a shit.
> .... What a little baby!
As charming as ever.
;-)
Bill Taylor
> What a turd you are!!
> You're free to shut the fuck up and I really wish you would!
> Piss off you fag!!
Aren't you all glad he decided to stay here!
;-)
Harald Korneliussen
with a ten-foot pole. Unless you bow down and worship him, your reward
will eventually be a taste of his shitstorm antics.
Mark Steere
wrote:
> Mark Steere <markste...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > they're way outside my grokosphere so I seldom play them.
>
> A shame that you aren't so far out of ours...
>
You're well within my cessosphere. One flush fills 100 sporks.
Mark Steere
wrote:
> Mark Steere <markste...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
>
> ...the opportunity to spit venom all over this newsgroup?
>
Don't flatter yourself, oh Minister of mediocrity. Bruising the fat
egos in this newsgroup is a cherished source of amusement, yes, but
nothing more.
Mark Steere
How touching. :D lol
The shit encrusted Vintershitz consoling a shit blast neophyte.
Johannes Laire
I've spent enough time online that I've learned to just laugh at
everything. :)
Fortunately there are more than enough games designed by others to
choose from.
Besides, I just noticed that MS is very hostile towards people
changing
the rules of his games. Given that he's not a good player himself,
there is
probably room for improvement in many of his games, so discouraging
experimenting with variations doesn't seem like a good idea to me. In
Cephalopod, for example, 5x5 board with 6-sided dice results in way
too
long games (an opinion shared by everyone at Vying Games). But if
that's
how he wants it, great.
--
Johannes Laire
Mark Steere
>
> ... I just noticed that MS is very hostile towards people
> changing the rules of his games.
Got that right.
> ... discouraging experimenting with variations doesn't seem
> like a good idea to me.
I couldn't care less what seems like a good idea to dime-a-dozen
programmer Johannes Laire.
> In Cephalopod, for example, 5x5 board with 6-sided dice
> results in way too long games.
So use a 3x5 board. That's a commonly used variation that I don't
mind. Different board sizes that don't change the nature of the game
are fine with me. For Cephalopod this means odd sized boards that
keep the game draw free.
If you have an idea for a variant, have the common decency to run it
past me first. Don't post a fucked up, trademark damaging variant to
the Internet while never having consulted me about it, and then when I
stumble onto it tell me, "I believe that all can come from this is to
bring more attention and success to your great game." Don't bring
your variant up for discussion in a public forum, like you're doing
here, instead of contacting me about it. Here you have all these
ideas about Cephalopod and I don't hear word one about it until I read
it here at this end-of-the-world den of mediocrity,
rec.games.abstract, where your initial focus is my lack of playing
skill. (How many hats to I have to wear?) Is it really that
demeaning to consult a designer about his game? I don't get it.
Here's a quote from my "A Designer's Perspective"
(http://www.marksteeregames.com/Design_Perspective.html):
"In summary, leave the abstract game design to the abstract game
designer. Doesn’t that seem reasonable? When a programmer presumes
to involve himself with the rules of my game, he firmly establishes a
few things: First and foremost the sheer oafishness that goes along
with wantonly abusing someone else’s property. A close second is the
audacity. Here we had a programmer, whose only prior involvement with
abstract game design had been selecting pretty colors for the board
and pieces. And now he suddenly felt empowered to take over the
design of a world class game. Why? Finally it’s the insult – the
implication that your game is so uninspired and arbitrary that Aldo
Asshole can jump in and make a worthwhile design contribution."
You weren't the first to program Cephalopod and you aren't the first
to suggest a variant for it. There's a Zillions Cephalopod program by
Keith Carter that includes a 2-sided dice, 11x11 board variant. Keith
had the common decency to ask me about the variant first which I then
approved. Two-sided dice makes for very different, very interesting
gameplay. I initially chose 6-sided dice because my games are
designed primarily for real life play and 6-sided dice are commonly
available.
I don't have a problem with variants. I have a problem with self-
entitled "designers" running off with my game like a mangy dog with a
scrap of meat.
Phil Carmody
Mark Steere <marks...@gmail.com> writes:
> On Nov 9, 1:21 am, Johannes Laire <johannes.la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ... I just noticed that MS is very hostile towards people
>> changing the rules of his games.
>
> Got that right.
>
>> ... discouraging experimenting with variations doesn't seem
>> like a good idea to me.
>
> I couldn't care less
No joke - I'm genuinely pleased to see the sensible, meaningful
version of this phrase used rather than the bizarrely meaningless
'I could care less'.
> what seems like a good idea to dime-a-dozen
> programmer Johannes Laire.
>
>> In Cephalopod, for example, 5x5 board with 6-sided dice
>> results in way too long games.
>
> So use a 3x5 board. That's a commonly used variation that I don't
> mind. Different board sizes that don't change the nature of the game
> are fine with me. For Cephalopod this means odd sized boards that
> keep the game draw free.
>
> If you have an idea for a variant, have the common decency to run it
> past me first. Don't post a fucked up, trademark damaging variant to
> the Internet while never having consulted me about it
To avoid infringing on trademarks, perhaps an anagram of the name
would do? I notice that
Mark Steere's Cephalopod Game
is an anagram of
Arsehole ego packs mad temper
Who'd have thought?!
Phil