Sgt. Rock 2002 WSOP/Bellagio TR Part I
Sgt. Rock
years, but this was the first time we drove. We left Seattle on April
26, headed South on I-5, and after a couple days visiting family in the
San Francisco and San Deigo Bay areas, we drove Mrs. Rock's 2002 Honda
into Vegas on I-15 the afternoon of Tuesday, April 30, and got a room at
Bellagio. We didn't know if we were staying 2 days or 2 weeks, or
what. Turned out we stayed 21 nights.
We came to town with a trip bank only a third as big as we brought last
year. The plan was that if either of us could run our half of the bank
up to $20K in the 30/60 game, then he/she could play 80/160. As soon as
we got there and saw how juicy the 80/160s looked, we reconsidered that
plan, and agreed instead that either of us could and should play 80 so
long as we had the green light from the other.
There was slightly less action than last year, but it was still
awesome. Last year we sometimes saw five 30/60 games, but I don't think
I saw more than four at any time this year. Last year the 80/160
must-move and second must-must-move games started earlier and went
longer than this year, but not by much. Last year the 80/160 main game
went nonstop for the 3 weeks that we were there; this year it actually
broke a couple times between dawn and noon.
As soon as we got into the poker room I saw our friend Mr. X, a Vegas
local, who told us that:
- The 30/60 and 80/160 games had been extremely good since the Series
began. Doh.
- The card quality was worse than ever, with many color-mismatched
cards, particularly in the green decks.
- He was suspicious of a certain few visiting LA players in the 30 and
80 games, who might be colluding (signaling best hand), trying to
whipsaw players who got between them, and, especially, trying to scope
players' holecards from the rail, then signaling their friend in the
game, or just walking up to their friend and quietly telling him- in
their native tongue- what they had seen. Enforcement of the "English
Only" rule is pretty poor at Bellagio.
===
Tuesday, April 30 - Day 1
I play 30/60 for about 8 hours and lose $1,742, in spite of flopping
four Kings.
The Europeans are back in force this year, and the French contingent
seems to have doubled. All the regulars, many newbies, and more than a
few of the French guys brought their wives or girlfriends along. Lots
of French conversation in the room, and Americans constantly commenting
about how pretty the language is. Language, smanguage. How about the
way these guys play? Viva la France!
===
Wednesday, May 1 - Day 2
I start at 30/60, then try some 80/160, play 14 hours total, and win
$3,176. That's more like it.
Bellagio Deltas, 2002 vs. 2001:
1. New carpet in poker Room. Was mostly gold before, now mostly
black. Just as dirty, but hides it better.
2. Many waitresses, maids and others now wearing badges that proclaim
their union affiliation. Once, in the buffet, as the carver was putting
the wellington on my plate, he told me, in a thick accent, "We strike in
June." I thought my ears had deceived me, and must have given him a
puzzled look. So he repeated it.
3. Poker room food comps used to be worth "$10 or one buffet," which
made them a great value evenings and weekends, when the buffet is $24.95
or more. Now a comp is good for $15.00, period. Weekdays, the buffet
is $14.95 until 3:30pm, so that's about the only time you can use a
comp. We'd been accustomed to being generous to the guys with the
pencil, getting comps, and doing the buffet pretty much any time we
wanted. No more. That really sucks.
===
Thursday, May 2 - Day 3 (Anniversary: Private E-1 Rock drafted 35
years ago today)
I again start at 30, then help start the must-move 80 game. Began at
Table 4, in Seat 3, my catbird seat, but couldn't stay long. I was first
to move to the main game, where...
P.I. Bert open-raises on the button, and I flat call from he BB with Qd
Jd. (Shoulda raised? The Professional Poker Player Formerly Known as
Phil Tomasello used to rag on me for 3-betting a button steal raise with
QJo from the Small Blind. Then, later in this trip, Izmet chided me for
NOT 3-betting in that same spot. More I think about it, more I side
with Iz.)
The board came: A T 4, K, 7
I bet the flop with nothing, but he calls. Then I check-raise the turn,
but he reraises, and I reraise; he calls. I guess he had a set and I
got lucky. It was about the only time I got lucky in that session.
Later than night I got heads-up with Vincente, where I held AJ. He
checked the turn, but before I could do anything behind him, the
dealer-in-a-hurry put a King on the river. I was breathing, and may
have blinked, but otherwise I was a statue. Vince knew I hadn't acted,
and told the dealer "Hey, he didn't do anything yet." I guess he didn't
like the King any more than I did :-)
The dealer's gestures and expression told us that she wished we could
just pretend that I had checked, and get on with it. Yeah, right. I
had to tell her that "No, we can't play the river; we haven't finished
playing the turn yet." The floorman was called and told me to complete
the action before we take back the river, shuffle, and bring it again.
So I checked, and she shot me a *really* dirty look. Vince laughed.
Then she brought a Jack, and I smiled. Then Vince turned over pocket
Queens and I stopped smiling. This particular dealer is sort of a buddy
of ours, but is fast, sloppy, gabby, and inattentive. She didn't speak
to me for a couple days after this. Go figure.
Overall, it was a Bad Day at Black Rock. I bought four racks in the 80
game, and cashed less then a rack, for a loss of $6,689. Then I went to
bed and slept like a baby.
===
Fri May 3 - Day 4
The 80 looks real good, but my funds are already low. Mrs. Rock gives
me a big chunk of her bank, and I get in it anyway.
There is a small and very hyper LA-Vietnamese kid in the game who shows
us all the aggressiveness but none of the skill or cleverness usually
displayed by his countrymen. In other words, a Megafish. He likes
nearly every starting hand he sees. He can't lay down. He makes the
strangest moves and bets you ever saw. His stack moves up and down a
lot, but he buys and blows off $6K in 2 hours, goes for more money,
comes back and blows a few more, goes for money again, but doesn't come
back. Pretty much none of the chips he burned landed on my stack.
Darn. He was still around 2 weeks later, but I never did play with him
again. Double darn.
Instead, I hung in, but neared the carpet myself around midnight. Then
I bounced back a couple racks, but when it began heading south again,
around 4 am, I quit, -$1,871 for the day and -$7,226 for the trip.
Shit. This sucks.
===
Sat May 4 - Day 5: Kentucky Derby Day
No Private Showings!
I'm playing 30/60 at Table 5, Seat 3, when Mr. Mason Malmuth takes Seat
1. Within a couple minutes I am surprised to notice that his cards are
exposed to the other end of the table when he folds preflop. Rather
than slide them horizontally to the dealer, he lifts them a few inches
off the felt to halfway between horizontal and vertical, then gives a
flick of the wrist to send them towards the muck.
This is something I see all the time, and it always bugs me. In a game
of incomplete information, how can I tolerate it when my opponents
unfairly get information that I don't get? Simple. I can't.
Sometimes it seems like a guy exposing cards is doing it on purpose, but
in this case I'm sure it's just inadvertent carelessness. From a pro.
Go figure. I could say something to him, but that would violate my long
standing Official Policy of never trying to tell another player what to
do. Instead, the next time I see it happen, I immediately point to the
cards, and tell the dealer "Show all, dealer-- that hand!"
Unfortunately, the guy in the box was the single most inept dealer at
Bellagio, and I had to carefully explain to him that the cards had been
exposed to the other end, and so I wanted to see them too. He finally
understood, and showed us all the pocket fives that had been mucked
carelessly. Mr. M. said nothing.
Then, two deals later, it happened again! I made the same verbal demand
of the dealer. He got flustered, and didn't know what to do, so I asked
him to "Please either show me that hand, or call the floorperson." Then
Mr. M. said "YES, CALL THE FLOOR! THIS IS STARTING TO PISS ME OFF!"
The floorlady came over. Mr. M. demanded that she poll the guys at the
other end to ask if they had seen his hand. I told her that I didn't
care what they said, or if they were asleep, legally blind, or dead;
that the cards had been EXPOSED to them, and so should be exposed to
all. The poor floorlady didn't know what to do, so I told her "Look, if
you can just arrange for all cards to be mucked face down on the felt, I
will shut up and we can just play." She shot me a grateful smile, asked
everyone to muck carefully, and went away.
All this time I had said not one word to or about Mr. M; rather I had
referred to "those two cards," as though they had been exposed by a
gust of wind. Oh, but he really was pissed. He probably thought I was
taking some kind of shot at him, when I was just trying to put a stop to
the exposure of cards. I'm sorry if he took it as a personal affront.
It wasn't personal at all.
In any case, now he wanted to get me. I was starting to eat the $8 club
sandwich that Mrs. Rock had kindly brought to me from the Scarf & Barf,
aka "Sam's Snack Shop." At Mirage there is (or was) a rule against food
at the table, but there is no such rule at Bellagio. Still, Mr. M.
pointed at me and my lunch, and asked the dealer "Is that allowed in
here?"
Maybe I should have just politely asked him to muck more carefully, and
avoided all the hassle. That Official Policy of mine is intended to
avoid hassles, but maybe it failed this time. Usually it works pretty
good. I don't ask a player to make room for me, or to show me the hand
he just showed his neighbor; instead I ask the DEALER to square the
table, or to "show all."
Mr. M. mucked his hands carefully after that.
---
The Mother of All Muckers
That's what all the dealers call me. At least I think that's what
they're saying. Mucking is the strongest part of my game. Not the
timing so much as the execution. If there's a clear path across the
cloth between me and the muck, or the dealer's ready hand, then a highly
cultivated and carefully aimed flick of the index finger sends my two
cards straight there. If the path is blocked, say by chips, I can even
do a bank-shot. The dealer doesn't have to reach out to retrieve my
folded hand; it's right there at her fingertips. Ask any Bellagio
dealer if Sgt. Rock isn't The Mother of All Muckers, and they'll say
"Yes!" Or maybe "Who?"
---
FTTS
No, it's not a new internet protocol. FTTS simply stands for "Fun
Things to Say" (in the Hold 'Em game.)
FTTS: "You're Not Gonna Check-Raise Me, Are Ya?"
Two good ol' boy tourists came into the game, sat down together, and
seemed be buddies. These are the kind of sharpies who might double down
on hard twelve in a blackjack game, if you know what I mean.
Soon I was in a hand where I raised from middle position, the button
called, and both of these guys called from the blinds. As soon as the
flop came down, the SB mucked his hand. Then BB mucked his hand.
Have you ever deliberately mucked your hand when there was no bet to
you, and where you could have checked for free? If not, well, surely
you've seen other guys make this brilliant play. I myself have been
tempted a few times, but have never done it.
Imagine the player who ALWAYS mucks, just to save time, if he's gonna
fold to any bet, or otherwise hates the board. If that guy ever just
checks, you better watch out! When the player in front of me does this
I sometimes say the FTTS above. I think this was the first time I ever
saw TWO guys consecutively muck like this, so I called for time and
asked them:
"OK, which one of you guys is going for the check-raise?"
---
Sun, May 5 - Day 6
I get in a 30/60 at 11:00am, again at Table 5, Seat 3.
Later that evening I open-raise from the SB with KJo, and P.I. Bert
calls in the BB.
Board comes: 9 9 2, 2, A.
I bet flop and turn, and he calls. We both check the river, and I turn
over my hand. He mucks. Then THREE guys tell him that the board
plays. Floorman Bobba is called to the table, and tells us that, yes,
at Bellagio a player can muck and play the board, but only if he
declares "Play the board" before releasing. Bert had made no such
declaration. Did I give him half the pot? No. Have I ever made so
terrible a mistake myself? Sure. Did I try claim "my share" of the pot
after I had goofed? No way.
Still, Lady Luck must have wanted to punish my lack of compassion, as I
suffered a downhill slide for hours, bought a 3rd rack late in the
evening, a 4th at 1:00am, and ended -$3,018 for the day and -$10,469 for
the trip. Shit. Now this REALLY sucks.
===
Mon, May 6 - Day 7
First round of the day I open raise Jc Js in late position, but get
3-bet by the BB. Board comes: K 7 T, Q, 4, ALL spades. He bets flop
and turn, and I fear the As, but when he checks the river I bet, he
calls, then I show and take it. Dunno what he had.
Then I get into the catbird seat with a loose Frenchman (pardon the
redundancy) on my left. How loose? Would you believe open-limp UTG
with 23o?
---
FTTS: "Sorry, I Got Excited..."
Short handed; 5 players dealt in. I open-raise UTG with As 3s, and
Little Tony calls from the BB. I turn the nut flush, but check behind
him. Then he bets the river. I accidentally fumble my raise, spill
chips all over the cloth, and
apologize to him and the dealer. "Sorry, I got excited." He calls. How
come they never believe me?
---
Playing Slow != Slowplaying
I don't slowplay very much, but I play slowly all the time. So many
guys seem to want to forcefully splash their bet out there the instant
the flop (or turn, or river) hits, or maybe even BEFORE it hits, and I
never quite understood that. A
display of confidence? OK, fine; thanks for the info. Sometimes I know
beforehand what I'm gonna do on the next round, but more often I gotta
think about it some. If I act right away when I know, but pause when
I'm not sure, doesn't that give them information that I'd rather not
provide? Well, sure it does. In fact, this is a concept that was named
after me: They call it a "no-brainer."
Also, I'm not looking at the board when cards come down. I'm watching
my opponents. I don't look at the board until my turn comes. So say
we're five handed, I'm fourth, the flop comes, and the first three guys
act. The dealer and players expect me to act immediately. They don't
realize that I don't even know what's on the board yet. When my turn
comes the action stops for a moment, while I look, think, decide, THEN
act.
Hey, it's not like I'm majorly holding up the game. I'm talking about,
on average, a two second pause. One thousand one, one thousand two.
Still, this seems to irritate a few players and dealers. To them I
offer this advice: Get over it. Just like I got over being irritated
by the dealers who gesture impatiently to let me know that it's my
turn. I know whose turn it is. I also understand that you deal to lots
of players who DON'T know whose turn it is, so the gestures don't bother
me any more.
Before the flop, I ALWAYS pause for two seconds when it's my turn. It's
still quite amazing how often this causes those guys on my left who have
already looked at their hands to TELL us what they're gonna do. If you
like, you can call that annoying, angling, rude, or a cheap trick. I
call it playing poker the best way I know how.
---
A Play-Fast guy open-raises from early position, Little Tony 3-bets from
the middle, and I 4-bet late with AKo.
Flop comes J 4 4 and I bet when it's checked to me, but the opener
INSTANTLY raises. Tony folds, and I call. Turn is a blank; bet and
call. Then he bets the river even as the dealer is bringing a King, and
I call. He shows AJo. Is it too late to raise?
---
The button open-raises, Little Tony 3-bets from the small blind, and I
4-bet from the BB with 77.
Board comes: 9 9 4, A, 6
Tony bets the flop, I raise, button folds, Tony reraises, and I call.
Turn and river are checked around, and he shows me 88. Maybe I should
have either mucked preflop, or else followed through on my preflop
aggressiveness and perhaps stolen it on the turn or river. I think he
might have released if I had bet.
---
Miss, I Think You Left Your Motor Running
In a CP article a couple years ago, Max Shapiro called them "jigglers."
You see them all the time: Players with lots of nervous energy who
bounce their knee up and down or otherwise jiggle some part of their
body. Sometimes they're at the other end of the table, and you can't
see their knee bouncing, but you can see their sleeve or collar flapping
back and forth from the exertion. Sometimes, when a guy who's been
steadily jiggling suddenly STOPS jiggling, it might even TELL you
something.
On swingshift I noticed a DEALER who jiggled. Her whole body was
bouncing ever so slightly up and down in the chair. Low amplitude, high
frequency; almost a vibration. The guy next to me had a sweep second
hand on his watch, and we clocked her at 177 RPM, or just under 3 Hz.
Now here's where it gets weird. Later, on graveyard, there was ANOTHER
female dealer who jiggled in the chair too. This one went front-to-back
instead of up and down, and at 174 RPM.
Ya know, I really do need to get a life.
---
I open-raise with AA, get 3-bet by Jason, and just call heads-up.
Board comes: Q 5 3, 8, 5
I check-call the flop, then check-raise the turn, thinking I'm being
clever. Then I call his raise on the river and he shows me QQ. Yeah,
real clever.
---
I limp in the SB with Js 5s after several limpers, but the BB raises.
Board comes 4 6 7, 8, 2. Pot gets rather large, but it's a 3-way split.
I win $515 for the day.
---
(continued in Part II)
---
Sgt. Rock
http://sarge.virtualave.net
Mail To: woodrack AT sarge DOT virtualave DOT net
Diane from Green Bay
> We've flown in and out of Vegas and Reno 150+ times over the last 11
> years, but this was the first time we drove. We left Seattle on April
> 26, headed South on I-5, and after a couple days visiting family in the
> San Francisco and San Deigo Bay areas, we drove Mrs. Rock's 2002 Honda
> into Vegas on I-15 the afternoon of Tuesday, April 30, and got a room at
> Bellagio. We didn't know if we were staying 2 days or 2 weeks, or
> what. Turned out we stayed 21 nights.
>
>
>
> No Private Showings!
>
> I'm playing 30/60 at Table 5, Seat 3, when Mr. Mason Malmuth takes Seat
> 1. Within a couple minutes I am surprised to notice that his cards are
> exposed to the other end of the table when he folds preflop. Rather
> than slide them horizontally to the dealer, he lifts them a few inches
> off the felt to halfway between horizontal and vertical, then gives a
> flick of the wrist to send them towards the muck.
>
> ---
Sgt. Rock,
First off, let me tell you how much I enjoy your trip reports, always
a treat to read.
Secondly, your encounter with Mason reminds me of one of my own during
WSOP. I had forgotten about it until reading this part of your post.
I had thought about including it in my original trip report, but then
left it out.
But after reading this, I will post it shortly after all. What you saw
and his reaction did not surprise me in the least after what I had
experienced.
Diane
Mason Malmuth
From: "Sgt. Rock" <don't-ca...@i-call-u.com>
Newsgroups: rec.gambling.poker
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 2:13 PM
Subject: Sgt. Rock 2002 WSOP/Bellagio TR Part I
<snip>
> Unfortunately, the guy in the box was the single most inept dealer at
> Bellagio, and I had to carefully explain to him that the cards had been
> exposed to the other end, and so I wanted to see them too. He finally
> understood, and showed us all the pocket fives that had been mucked
> carelessly. Mr. M. said nothing.
<snip>
Thanks for the cheap shot. First no cards were ever exposed. Second,
everyone at the table said that no cards were exposed. And third, when you
started up the second time we called the floorperson over who ruled against
you, and you were not allowed to see my hand again.
By the way, just to show how ridiculous this all was, I was sitting in the
one seat (next to the dealer) and probably threw my cards in a total of 2
inches (which is where the muck was sitting). This is something that the
floorperson and several players, including myself, pointed out to you.
Mason
T. Chan
message.
On Mon, 27 May 2002 21:13:24 GMT, "Sgt. Rock"
<don't-ca...@i-call-u.com> wrote:
> - The card quality was worse than ever, with many color-mismatched
>cards, particularly in the green decks.
I've played almost no casino poker in the last 10 months or so, but
even I noticed this.
>
> - He was suspicious of a certain few visiting LA players in the 30 and
>80 games, who might be colluding (signaling best hand), trying to
>whipsaw players who got between them, and, especially, trying to scope
>players' holecards from the rail, then signaling their friend in the
>game, or just walking up to their friend and quietly telling him- in
>their native tongue- what they had seen. Enforcement of the "English
>Only" rule is pretty poor at Bellagio.
Agreed on the enforcement. Some dealers are better. This is one
advantage of being Asian; either I can understand what other people or
saying, or *they might think* I might be able to understand what
they're saying. I always avoid (if I can) mentioning what exact breed
of Asian I am so that I *might* be Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese,
whatever. I've never heard any improper collusion-type discussion
going on in the one language other than English I do understand, so I
feel relatively safe on this front.
[30/60]
>P.I. Bert open-raises on the button, and I flat call from he BB with Qd
>Jd. (Shoulda raised? The Professional Poker Player Formerly Known as
>Phil Tomasello used to rag on me for 3-betting a button steal raise with
>QJo from the Small Blind. Then, later in this trip, Izmet chided me for
>NOT 3-betting in that same spot. More I think about it, more I side
>with Iz.)
I think in the BB just calling is perfectly fine with a hand that has
little showdown power like QJs. But in the SB it is criminal to let
the BB in for just one more bet.
[dealer burns and turns before Sarge acts]
>The dealer's gestures and expression told us that she wished we could
>just pretend that I had checked, and get on with it. Yeah, right. I
>had to tell her that "No, we can't play the river; we haven't finished
>playing the turn yet." The floorman was called and told me to complete
>the action before we take back the river, shuffle, and bring it again.
>So I checked, and she shot me a *really* dirty look.
This is not perma-stiff material for me, but it's definitely
temporary-stiff.
>Before the flop, I ALWAYS pause for two seconds when it's my turn. It's
>still quite amazing how often this causes those guys on my left who have
>already looked at their hands to TELL us what they're gonna do. If you
>like, you can call that annoying, angling, rude, or a cheap trick. I
>call it playing poker the best way I know how.
I'm very anti-angling, but anyone who thinks this is an angle is nuts.
It's called your inherent right to take any sort of reasonable time to
make an action. Actually, I like this so much I think I'm going to do
it the next time I play casino poker. Getting information out of turn
rocks.
>The button open-raises, Little Tony 3-bets from the small blind, and I
>4-bet from the BB with 77.
>
>Board comes: 9 9 4, A, 6
>
>Tony bets the flop, I raise, button folds, Tony reraises, and I call.
>
>Turn and river are checked around, and he shows me 88. Maybe I should
>have either mucked preflop, or else followed through on my preflop
>aggressiveness and perhaps stolen it on the turn or river. I think he
>might have released if I had bet.
I think you should have bet the turn to protect your hand (free cards
suck!), not because he was going to fold a better one. His 3-bet on
the flop is a commitment to see the showdown.
[from Part II]
>Frenchman open limps early, and I raise right behind him with Michael
>and Janet Jackson.
Even with the hints in this hand I can't quite pin down what you have.
QsQc? QsJs? JcJs? (that last one would make no sense.)
>At 9:30pm I have AA and it's capped 5-way preflop. Aces hold up and
>take down 38 small bets. [...]
>Next hand I have As Qs, and it's again capped 5-way preflop, capped
>4-way on the flop, and raised 3-way on the turn. Bet and called 3-way
>on the river. The board is Queen high, and my top pair/best kicker
>takes down 63 small bets.
Man, don't you know anything? One pair *never* wins these big pots in
loose-aggressive games.
[Part III]
>The strangest thing happened today. I had a guy "conditioned," and had
>not yet reversed it. Then, when he bet into me on the turn, I said "I
>can't call you," whereupon HE THREW HIS HAND AWAY! In this instance I
>really WAS gonna raise, but think about how glorious it will be when the
>day comes that I say "I can't call you," and really mean it, and the
>bettor mucks his hand.
That is very scary. I'm in awe. Seriously.
>Board comes: Q 9 7, 9, 7.
>
>Flop: I bet out, limper raises, T.C. calls, and I call.
>Turn: I check-raise the limper, and he calls. T.C. is still calling
>too.
>River: I bet, limper calls, T.C. raises, I reraise, limper calls, T.C.
>folds.
>
>You know what I said when I turned that hand over. Limper shows Aces.
>T.C., whose river raise gave me slight pause and tiny fear that I might
>be facing quads, announces that he "had pocket Kings and raised the
>river to see where I'm at." OK, fine.
You have to think long and hard to find many more -ev raises than
that. This guy is a disgrace to two perfectly good initials!
>We got
>Abdul Jalib in seat 7, Izmet Fekali in 8, a tough local pro in 9, and
>Jim Geary in 10.
[And Sarge got up]
Easily the best play of the trip, and not a tough decision, either!
>We drive straight North from Vegas, through Ely and
>Jackpot, Nevada to Twin Falls, ID, then hang a left to Boise, where we
>grab some grub at Denny's (Yuck. Never again.) and crash at Motel-6
>around midnight.
>
>Yeah, we'd been tired, but that sure was a beautiful drive. Mostly 75
>MPH on 2 lane highway through Nevada; nice weather, sparse traffic,
>desert, snow-capped mountains, lottsa farms. The big valley just South
>of Jackpot is really pretty.
Funny, I've done this exact route (except going south into Vegas) but
at about 11:00pm to 6:00am. I detested it. The two-lane freeway and
high speeds means the suction/wind/whatever every big rig generates
will knock your vehicle a solid 8 or 9 inches to the right where you
have to grip the steering wheel for dear life. And roadkill to dodge
abounds, which is more of a factor with no sunlight -- at that speed,
there's just a furry mess coming up on you out of nowhere.
>Wednesday we head out early, and cut across the NE corner of Oregon,
>over the Columbia River into Washington, and on through Tri-Cities,
>Yakima, Ellensburg and Snoqualmie to arrive home mid afternoon.
Is Snoqualmie the snowy/mountainish part in southern Washington? Now
*that* is beautiful.
Congrats on the trip and the comeback. Sorry I missed you (and I'm
surprised, seeing as how I was there 8 days...but almost always at
Bellagio on graveyard shift).
--
Self-indulgent homepage warning:
http://www.sfu.ca/~tchand/
stckthdck
<cool report snipped>
Why is it that I never get any Sgt. Rock's at my table? I'll have to
play cards with you someday (but not 80-160). Thanks for the
outstanding trip report(s).
shoath
a.k.a. Rainbow6
CSt1015577
>at about 11:00pm to 6:00am. I detested it. The two-lane freeway and
>high speeds means the suction/wind/whatever every big rig generates
>will knock your vehicle a solid 8 or 9 inches to the right where you
>have to grip the steering wheel for dear life. And roadkill to dodge
>abounds, which is more of a factor with no sunlight -- at that speed,
>there's just a furry mess coming up on you out of nowhere.
>
When I was younger and lived I the country, I had a creed and that was to not
swerve for anything smaller than a deer for night driving. That served me well.
I've hit deer. And yes I've seen the carnage caused by hitting livestock with
an automobile. Hell, I've seen Brahma cows jumping a barb wire fence like deer
and a herd of horses and a pack of dogs on the highway at night. Luckily, I
managed to avoid these hazards. A hint to drivers is to look for light
reflected from the animals' eyes in the road shoulder. Be warned that wild hogs
do not freeze up in your headlights. But if you're coming from Canada, you
have to dodge the above hazards as well as large animals like moose, bear,
and elk. All of these amimals are hefty enough to total your car and kill you.
So my advice is to dodge the big ones and mow down the little critters. I know
that sounds heartless but that insurance commercial on TV about squirrels
causing the car to crash is just so much bullshit! I have pets, so all you
animal rights activists who want to flame me can hold your fire; like that's
gonna stop you!
Eddie Steele "Even the Losers Get Lucky Sometimes"---Tom Petty and the
Heartbreakers
THEPRO913
quacked, are'nt you??????
Diane from Green Bay
Mason...........
> Sgt. Rock,
>
> First off, let me tell you how much I enjoy your trip reports, always
> a treat to read.
>
> Secondly, your encounter with Mason reminds me of one of my own during
> WSOP. I had forgotten about it until reading this part of your post.
> I had thought about including it in my original trip report, but then
> left it out.
>
> But after reading this, I will post it shortly after all. What you saw
> and his reaction did not surprise me in the least after what I had
> experienced.
>
> Diane
Ok, here is what happened to me.........and my own most recent and
unpleasant public encounter with Mason Malmouth. I feel compelled to
throw this out after Sgt. Rock's comments and Mason's subsequent
personal response to Sgt. Rock....
Otherwise up until now I had purposely not mentioned it except to a
few close personal friends.
To set the stage.........
Those of you that are veteran rgpers or follow 2+2 may remember that
Mason and I have "clashed" a few times on this newsgroup and on 2+2.
To the point that I publicly "resigned" from 2+2 after being a
semi-regular contributor for a few years. Participating in 2+2 had
ceased to be any fun and I was tired of his comments questioning my
motives for some of my posts, his rudeness, and my frustration with
his inability to ever be "wrong" on anything. So I said my good-byes
and signed off from 2+2 and have only participated in this newsgroup
since that time. I told my 2+2 friends to come "visit me" here on rgp
if they wanted to stay in touch or via private email.
So fast forward........ there I am on about day 3 of my April 2002
Vegas trip (timed to WSOP,but non-WSOP) and visit Bellagio for the
first time this trip. Comfortably seated in #10 seat at a $15-30 HE
game laughing and talking with several at table and some poker friends
that stop by that I haven't seen in a long time. In short I am having
fun and enjoying myself as usual at a poker table.
Mason has come into the room, signed up for games, and is waiting to
be called. Unfortunately for me, he gets called to my game and takes a
seat in the middle of the table. He looks around, starts to play and
is quiet. We play for awhile and I continue to talk as people
approach.
Someone I know brings over a friend and introduces him to me. I say
something about being "Diane from Green Bay" during the introduction.
Mason overhears the comment, his head snaps back, he looks at me, but
doesn't say anything. I am aware that he now remembers who I am, but
we have no discussion and game goes on. I play, talk, engage in a pot
or two against him (don't remember who won, probably Mason) and time
passes. Then the #9 seat opens up and much to my chagrin, Mason makes
a seat change to this vacant seat and is now right next to me.
We play poker for awhile without speaking with each other.
Then in a quiet lull between hands, he asks me out of the blue "why I
said such mean things and lied about him?". I was surprised by the
bluntness and outburst from him, but responded head on.
I told him that anything I had posted on rgp or 2+2 was a valid and
true statement and that I stood 100% behind everything I said. He
repeated the comment about mean lies, and I denied it. I told him
that my personal credibility in the poker world was very important to
me and that I have never "shilled" for any site or anyone, and never
posted anything I didn't truly believe to be correct. I told him that
when he attacks my friends and people I respect in the poker community
that I will continue to speak up and challenge him and anyone.
I went on to remind him that what I had posted in past was that he was
rude, very critical of dealers and others, and that he was a lousy
tipper at the table. I reminded him of the criticism he levied at
Jimmy Sommerfield from Horseshoe Tunica, my defense of Jimmy and then
Mason's continued attack. He claimed he didn't remember the incident,
but I told him I remembered it quite vividly.
He also said he "doesn't stiff dealers". I told him that he did stiff
dealers and he even wrote about it in the Jimmy issue from Horsehoe
Tunica. (By the way, the lady dealer in the box at our table almost
choked when she heard Mason say he never stiffed the dealers....but
she recovered her composure and didn't say a word and remained
professionally silent)
I then reminded him of the cheap shot he fired at LJ and his
ridiculous attempt to show a link between her departure from CP
somehow to the mess with the Orleans and the TOC. He was totally wrong
and way out of line. He then said yes, he remembered that, but felt
his comments were appropriate, yet "he got threatened by a lawsuit as
a result". I told him that he deserved to get sued over what he had
said publicly at the time. Those who were here at the time, remember
how quickly he retracted what he said and apologized (or as close as
he is able to come to an apology)
Each time I reminded him of something he had done or said in past, his
memory was very selective in terms of the things I brought up. Yet I
told him I recalled each incident very vividly and he should check the
archives here and on 2+2 to referesh his memory. He said he didn't
remember every post--I told him any that involved me or my friends
that I remembered them in detail !)
The exhange between us was clearly heard by others at the table and by
a few of those walking through as well. I know that people in the
other tables nearby were turning around to see what was going on.
It was embarassing since I felt we were making a "scene", yet there
was no way I was going to back down once he opened the door and
publicly challenged me. He continued to throw things at me and I
answered with a rebuttal on every thing he said. Finally I was
growing very tired of his whining and distraction from my game, and
said that I was finished discussing it and to let it go. He wouldn't
stop, so I repeated that we would have to "agree to disagree,because I
didn't want to continue the discussion and had said all I had to say."
I then turned square away from him and ignored him the balance of his
time at the table.
He initiated the verbal exchange and it was unpleasant for both of us.
I wouldn't have said a thing to him - but he started it and then got
it back with both barrels from me. (but let it be known that true to
form, I never raised my voice or used profanity to get my points
across--it took some effort, but I stayed in control of my emotions) I
truly wanted no part of the conversation but I wouldn't stop my
rebuttals once he started it. Then Mason didn't want to let it end,
because I wouldn't agree with him - somehow he apparently felt
compelled to keep rehashing it over and over.
He finally shut up, we played for a few minutes more, and then he was
called to another game and left the table. People were staring at me
and wondering I am sure what the "rest of the story" was, but
fortunately we just continued to play poker at that table, and I
attempted to forget it.
Afterwards a dealer who had been at the table waiting to "push in"
during our exchange and overheard most of it, said to me privately
that it was a pathetic "joke" for Mason to say he never stiffed
dealers and that his reputation for poor toking/tipping was very well
known to all in the poker dealing world.
In hindsight, I know now that I should have simply called the floor
over to alert them to Mason's harassment of me at the table right
after it began. That would have been more appropriate that enduring
his tirade.
So here is one more incident to add to the list of public misbehavior
Mr. Malmouth has engaged in lately. As a "public figure" in the world
of poker his behavior is simply amazing to me, but then again after
the time I have spent in poker, it probably shouldn't be that
surprising.
Diane
PS to David S., please don't bother trying to
defend/translate/"explain" Mason's behavior like you have done
before.........This was a real life/real time/ first hand rendition of
a very public incident. DB
Patrick B. O'Malley
$30/60 game the other weekend. Stiffed the dealer on both pots he won and I
was amazed because knowing he was a writer, I thought that was kinda odd.
Then when he whined and berated a tourist player after losing a few times, I
realized that he must be like this all the time. I lost any respect I had
for him as a writer just watching his demeanor and the fact that he penny
pinched each time he won. I guess this is seen by more than just myself.
--
Patrick B. O'Malley
"Diane from Green Bay" <hrd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:112260ba.02052...@posting.google.com...
lvdlrs
I am left with a sadness. If only I had been there to see you level both
barrels at him. Of course seeing you become upset is the only downside.
Mason has worse people skills than David and that says a lot.
Gary (...) Philips
Diane from Green Bay
I knew I wasn't the only one who had experienced this side of Mason,
but must say I have been absolutely amazed by the number of private
emails I have recieved already from people who have their own "Mason"
story they want to share.
Diane
cloud9gal
> If there's a clear path across the cloth between me and the muck, or the
dealer's ready > hand, then a highly cultivated and carefully
aimed flick of the index finger sends my two
> cards straight there. If the path is blocked, say by chips, I can even
do a bank-shot. The
> dealer doesn't have to reach out to retrieve my folded hand; it's right
there at her fingertips.
Some of us are very appreciative of your efforts. You are indeed a great
mucker.
JTAutry
I think you should compile them into book form and ask 2+2 to publish it....
JT
"Diane from Green Bay" <hrd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:112260ba.02052...@posting.google.com...
OrangeSFO
Boo...
Fucking...
Hoo.
The fact that you spent--oh, EASILY an hour--breathlessly transcribing
your encounter says as much about you as it does about your subject.
If somebody's bugging you at the table, ignore him, leave, or take his
money (most satisfying in my experience). I am not interested in your
hall monitor-style reports on who was nice to you and who was mean.
Poker rooms are full of characters. A GREAT number of them are not so
nice to be around. All I ever hear out of you is how you think
everyone should behave. If you can't deal with the people, don't go
into the casinos.
Yeah, I flamed you. So what?
Ed Brayton
>The fact that you spent--oh, EASILY an hour--breathlessly transcribing
>your encounter says as much about you as it does about your subject.
>If somebody's bugging you at the table, ignore him, leave, or take his
>money (most satisfying in my experience). I am not interested in your
>hall monitor-style reports on who was nice to you and who was mean.
You were interested enough to read the whole thing and type out a
response to it. If you truly weren't interested in it, you would have
ignored it and gone on to something you did want to read.
Ed Brayton
Diane from Green Bay
> Diane,
> I think you should compile them into book form and ask 2+2 to publish it....
>
> JT
>
> "Diane from Green Bay" <hrd...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:112260ba.02052...@posting.google.com...
> > PBO and Gary Phillips,
JT,
After the raw material I might submit would be censored, edited, and
prefaced, there wouldn't be much left for content......
Please let me clarify also that my criticism and decision to leave 2+2
was a result of Mason's behavior and his alone. Chuck Weinstock's
affiliation with the site and work on behalf of it and for rgp are
awesome and above reproach as far as I am concerned.
Diane
Chuck Humphrey
Given what you have posted, it must be that your anatomy and your
brain are close in shape and size.
Why would you attack Diane, who has proven to be attack proof over the
past few years.
There is a reason for that. Her psyche and RGP presence is very close
to being the perfect nice "guy."
Want to challenge her on that?
Chuck Humphrey
Nat Silver
> So fast forward........ there I am on about day 3 of my April 2002
> Vegas trip (timed to WSOP,but non-WSOP)
You came to Vegas during the World Series in order
to boycott the World Series?!
> and visit Bellagio for the first time this trip.
>Comfortably seated in #10 seat at a $15-30 HE
> game laughing and talking with several at table and some poker friends
> that stop by that I haven't seen in a long time. In short I am having
> fun and enjoying myself as usual at a poker table.
You visited the Bellagio and played a game that
everyone knows Mason plays in?!
> Mason has come into the room, signed up for games, and is waiting to
> be called. Unfortunately for me, he gets called to my game and takes a
> seat in the middle of the table. He looks around, starts to play and
> is quiet. We play for awhile and I continue to talk as people
> approach.
Bad luck for you. Mason showed up.
> Someone I know brings over a friend and introduces him to me. I say
> something about being "Diane from Green Bay" during the introduction.
You made sure Mason knew who you were.
> Mason overhears the comment, his head snaps back, he looks at me, but
> doesn't say anything. I am aware that he now remembers who I am, but
> we have no discussion and game goes on. I play, talk, engage in a pot
> or two against him (don't remember who won, probably Mason) and time
> passes. Then the #9 seat opens up and much to my chagrin, Mason makes
> a seat change to this vacant seat and is now right next to me.
You ignored Mason after all this.
> We play poker for awhile without speaking with each other.
> Then in a quiet lull between hands, he asks me out of the blue "why I
> said such mean things and lied about him?". I was surprised by the
> bluntness and outburst from him, but responded head on.
You were surprised that Mason violated your ignorance
and had the temerity to speak to you. Undaunted you
were able to bury him without missing a beat?!
<snip>
> He also said he "doesn't stiff dealers". I told him that he did stiff
> dealers and he even wrote about it in the Jimmy issue from Horsehoe
> Tunica. (By the way, the lady dealer in the box at our table almost
> choked when she heard Mason say he never stiffed the dealers....but
> she recovered her composure and didn't say a word and remained
> professionally silent)
You have exposed Mason as being cheap?!
<snip>
> The exhange between us was clearly heard by others at the table and by
> a few of those walking through as well. I know that people in the
> other tables nearby were turning around to see what was going on.
You had witnesses?!
> It was embarassing since I felt we were making a "scene", yet there
> was no way I was going to back down once he opened the door and
> publicly challenged me. He continued to throw things at me and I
> answered with a rebuttal on every thing he said. Finally I was
> growing very tired of his whining and distraction from my game, and
> said that I was finished discussing it and to let it go. He wouldn't
> stop, so I repeated that we would have to "agree to disagree,because I
> didn't want to continue the discussion and had said all I had to say."
> I then turned square away from him and ignored him the balance of his
> time at the table.
You are a control freak?!
> He initiated the verbal exchange and it was unpleasant for both of us.
Oh, Mason started it. High school detention for Mason?!
<snip>
> In hindsight, I know now that I should have simply called the floor
> over to alert them to Mason's harassment of me at the table right
> after it began. That would have been more appropriate that enduring
> his tirade.
You can't have it both ways. You came all the way from Wisconsin
and didn't get your money's worth? Well, that's toughsky.
> So here is one more incident to add to the list of public misbehavior
> Mr. Malmouth has engaged in lately. As a "public figure" in the world
> of poker his behavior is simply amazing to me, but then again after
> the time I have spent in poker, it probably shouldn't be that
> surprising.
If someone's not as well-adjusted to life as you seem to be, as well
as not being as full of himself as you seem to be, then why take the
opportunity to berate that person is the way I see it. If Mason behaved
as you seem to want him to, probably he wouldn't have made any
contributions to poker and have been a professional ---------- instead.
(You fill in the blanks.) Sometimes we have to accept the whole package,
especially when people do have redeeming qualities. Most do you know.
> PS to David S., please don't bother trying to
> defend/translate/"explain" Mason's behavior like you have done
> before.........This was a real life/real time/ first hand rendition of
> a very public incident. DB
Preemptively, dismissing any criticism of your post?! You may
yet be a good poker player. But I won't hold my breath.
Ed Brayton
No, that's Razzo's job. He's treated her shamefully for her audacity
in believing that his boss would do what she ended up doing and her
timerity in saying so.
Ed Brayton
DamageInc
>Each time I reminded him of something he had done or said in past, his
>memory was very selective in terms of the things I brought up.
Maybe the poor thing has Alzheiner's. Did you consider that possibility?
"Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself"
Doris Lessing
Diane from Green Bay
> "Diane from Green Bay"
>
> > So fast forward........ there I am on about day 3 of my April 2002
> > Vegas trip (timed to WSOP,but non-WSOP)
>
> You came to Vegas during the World Series in order
> to boycott the World Series?!
As stated in previous posts, the timeframe surrounding the WSOP is one
of the best times to play poker in Vegas. Lots of players flock in
just for the experience of being around poker at that time. Yes, it
was timed exactly to the WSOP because I knew (from all my prior WSOP
trips) that the games on the strip would be great during that entire
month.
>
> > and visit Bellagio for the first time this trip.
> >Comfortably seated in #10 seat at a $15-30 HE
> > game laughing and talking with several at table and some poker friends
> > that stop by that I haven't seen in a long time. In short I am having
> > fun and enjoying myself as usual at a poker table.
>
> You visited the Bellagio and played a game that
> everyone knows Mason plays in?!
From my past trips, most of Mason's time is spent in $30-60. He only
slums with us lower game players while waiting for a seat in a bigger
game. I figured my chances of getting in a game with him were slim.
Plus, all my other trips I was able to just ignore and avoid him.
This time that wasn't possible short of leaving a game I was beating
and having a good time in. I never expected him to zone in on me and
and purposely take the seat next to me to harass me.
>
> > Mason has come into the room, signed up for games, and is waiting to
> > be called. Unfortunately for me, he gets called to my game and takes a
> > seat in the middle of the table. He looks around, starts to play and
> > is quiet. We play for awhile and I continue to talk as people
> > approach.
>
> Bad luck for you. Mason showed up.
>
Showing up wasn't the problem, I expected that. Didn't expect him in
my game.
> > Someone I know brings over a friend and introduces him to me. I say
> > something about being "Diane from Green Bay" during the introduction.
>
> You made sure Mason knew who you were.
Nope, just did my usual amount of talking, laughing and having fun. I
would have preferred Mason NOT remember me. My buddy was the one who
made the intro as Diane Biersteker and then followed it up with "Diane
from Green Bay" moniker and I simply acknowledged it.
> > Mason overhears the comment, his head snaps back, he looks at me, but
> > doesn't say anything. I am aware that he now remembers who I am, but
> > we have no discussion and game goes on. I play, talk, engage in a pot
> > or two against him (don't remember who won, probably Mason) and time
> > passes. Then the #9 seat opens up and much to my chagrin, Mason makes
> > a seat change to this vacant seat and is now right next to me.
>
> You ignored Mason after all this.
Yup. I talked to dealer, other players and ignored him. Didn't even
say hi or have eye contact once he moved.
>
> > We play poker for awhile without speaking with each other.
> > Then in a quiet lull between hands, he asks me out of the blue "why I
> > said such mean things and lied about him?". I was surprised by the
> > bluntness and outburst from him, but responded head on.
>
> You were surprised that Mason violated your ignorance
> and had the temerity to speak to you. Undaunted you
> were able to bury him without missing a beat?!
>
From his earlier behavior from the middle seat when he barely spoke at
all, I was surprised. Also from all my other times playing with him
through the years he is generally very quiet at table and doesn't
engage in "small talk". What surprised me was the vehemence behind
his words and his bluntness. I wouldn't use the word "undaunted", he
threw me off guard and definietly caught me by surprise. However,
once I realized where he was going with his comments, I began my
rebuttal and defense.
"Bury him" is overly strong for what happened. I can't say I won the
argument - because he didn't seem to be accepting anything I said. He
just kept repeating his points and I did mine. I didn't convince him
he was wrong - and he didn't convince me either. "without missing a
beat" is not correct either. He threw me off and upset me and my game
was lousy during the time this exchange occurred.
> > He also said he "doesn't stiff dealers". I told him that he did stiff
> > dealers and he even wrote about it in the Jimmy issue from Horsehoe
> > Tunica. (By the way, the lady dealer in the box at our table almost
> > choked when she heard Mason say he never stiffed the dealers....but
> > she recovered her composure and didn't say a word and remained
> > professionally silent)
>
> You have exposed Mason as being cheap?!
>
Nope, I believe that was already well known. I just didn't let him
deny it without challenging it.
> > The exhange between us was clearly heard by others at the table and by
> > a few of those walking through as well. I know that people in the
> > other tables nearby were turning around to see what was going on.
>
> You had witnesses?!
Obviuously.................the 8 other players at table, the two
dealers, others who turned in their chairs at adjoining tables were
watching, but not sure how much of conversation or actual words that
were overheard.
>
> > It was embarassing since I felt we were making a "scene", yet there
> > was no way I was going to back down once he opened the door and
> > publicly challenged me. He continued to throw things at me and I
> > answered with a rebuttal on every thing he said. Finally I was
> > growing very tired of his whining and distraction from my game, and
> > said that I was finished discussing it and to let it go. He wouldn't
> > stop, so I repeated that we would have to "agree to disagree,because I
> > didn't want to continue the discussion and had said all I had to say."
> > I then turned square away from him and ignored him the balance of his
> > time at the table.
>
> You are a control freak?!
Pretty much............type "A", first born child, known to be bossy,
and generally a "take charge" type person in all aspects of my life
including poker.
>
> > He initiated the verbal exchange and it was unpleasant for both of us.
> > Oh, Mason started it. High school detention for Mason?!
I had no intention to speak with him at all. I was just waiting for
him to get called to his higher level game.
>
> > In hindsight, I know now that I should have simply called the floor
> > over to alert them to Mason's harassment of me at the table right
> > after it began. That would have been more appropriate that enduring
> > his tirade.
>
> You can't have it both ways. You came all the way from Wisconsin
> and didn't get your money's worth? Well, that's toughsky.
Came all the way from WI to play poker, see FRIENDS, and have fun. I
got my $$'s worth. Made a nice profit, spent lots of time with close
friends, and had a great trip overall.
> > So here is one more incident to add to the list of public misbehavior
> > Mr. Malmouth has engaged in lately. As a "public figure" in the world
> > of poker his behavior is simply amazing to me, but then again after
> > the time I have spent in poker, it probably shouldn't be that
> > surprising.
>
> If someone's not as well-adjusted to life as you seem to be, as well
> as not being as full of himself as you seem to be, then why take the
> opportunity to berate that person is the way I see it. If Mason behaved
> as you seem to want him to, probably he wouldn't have made any
> contributions to poker and have been a professional ---------- instead.
> (You fill in the blanks.) Sometimes we have to accept the whole package,
> especially when people do have redeeming qualities. Most do you know.
>
I have publicly acknowledged many times (check the archives) the
tremendous contributions Mason (and David) among others have made to
the game of poker and his writings have personally helped me
tremendously. Their books are dog eared and well worn on my poker
book shelf. He is a very intelligent person without dispute. I just
continue to be surprised and end up shaking my head over the behavior
he exhibits in public, especially given his comments about being a
"poker celebrity" and his public image. His seeking me out to have the
conversation was a total shock to me. Totally unexpected.
> > PS to David S., please don't bother trying to
> > defend/translate/"explain" Mason's behavior like you have done
> > before.........This was a real life/real time/ first hand rendition of
> > a very public incident. DB
>
> Preemptively, dismissing any criticism of your post?! You may
> yet be a good poker player. But I won't hold my breath.
No, I expected to get criticism such as yours and others. I also know
the track record David has of trying to defend and explain Mason to
the rest of the poker world. David was the only one I was telling
"not to bother" doing it. The rest of you were expected to flame
away..........I knew it would be a controversial post, but wanted to
get it off my chest after his reply to Sgt. Rock. Otherwise I had
kept it to myself and out of rgp.
Also let it be known that I do not claim and never have claimed to "be
a good player". Generally my comments in that regard have to do with
being a lucky player, someone who has "some" limited success, but also
someone who lacks the discipline to be a good player. I have too much
fun playing my loose "touristy" style of poker. I play way too many
hands and don't do a good enough job with selection of starting cards.
Fortunately I have a very good job and poker is my recreation instead
of golf or gardening. When I come back from a trip with positive
results, I am generally surprised as well as happy.
Diane
Diane from Green Bay
> Diane,
>
> Boo...
>
> Fucking...
>
> Hoo.
>
> The fact that you spent--oh, EASILY an hour--breathlessly transcribing
> your encounter says as much about you as it does about your subject.
> If somebody's bugging you at the table, ignore him, leave, or take his
> money (most satisfying in my experience). I am not interested in your
> hall monitor-style reports on who was nice to you and who was mean.
Way less than an hour............I type really fast. All most as fast
as I can talk, which is pretty darn fast.
Don't like my posts............kill file is always an option. Or once
you start to read something you don't like.....STOP. You are not a
captive audience, but a voluntary one if you continue to read
something you don't like.
>
> Poker rooms are full of characters. A GREAT number of them are not so
> nice to be around. All I ever hear out of you is how you think
> everyone should behave. If you can't deal with the people, don't go
> into the casinos.
Obviously, I can deal with it. But that doesn't mean I like it.
Fortunately the majority of people in the poker rooms and poker world
are absolutely wonderful. That and the competition, and the
possibility of making a small profit are why I keep coming back and
hoping those airplanes.
> Yeah, I flamed you. So what?
So nothing............I am gradually becoming more thick skinned. I
know if I post, I get flamed. No surprise here.
Diane
David Ottosen
> Then in a quiet lull between hands, he asks me out of the blue "why I
> said such mean things and lied about him?". I was surprised by the
> bluntness and outburst from him, but responded head on.
This qualifies as an "outburst"? So he asks you a question. You respond with...
> I told him ...
> I told him ...
> I told him ...
> I went on to remind him ...
> I reminded him ...
> I told him ...
> I told him ...
> I then reminded him ...
> I told him ...
> Each time I reminded him ...
> Yet I told him ...
> I told him ...
Someone got verbally harassed here, no question about that.
> It was embarassing since I felt we were making a "scene",
One of you was certainly making a scene.
Unknown
Mason is a prick, no news flash.....
On 28 May 2002 20:45:37 -0700, hrd...@aol.com (Diane from Green Bay)
wrote:
OrangeSFO
> response to it. If you truly weren't interested in it, you would have
> ignored it and gone on to something you did want to read.
Interested in her post, as in many others here, only in the sense that
driving by a car wreck is "interesting." I can't help but slow down
and stare when someone is making an ass out of herself.
This newsgroup is a high school. Full of cliques and factions.
Golden boys and screw-ups, and...popular girls. Full of everything
except poker.
I'm just amused at how Saint Diane has appointed herself poker's Miss
Manners and lives under the assumption that anybody gives a crap about
her bleatings concerning who was not nice to her, who said a bad word
in her presence.
WHO CARES DIANE????? Somebody bugged you in a card game. So what?
sweater
> Full of everything except poker.
>
>I'm just amused at how Saint Diane has appointed herself
Your post is about Diane's personality. Is that about 'poker'?
Pot, Kettle, Black, sir.
adam
guilty of confrontation, yet you seem to do a lot of exaggerating at
the end pointing the finger and calling it harassment. I really
respect you and your posts and this conclusion that you were being
harassed surprises me.
PacPalBuzz
Bellagio
From: adama...@aol.com (adam)
Date: Thu, May 30, 2002 11:52 AM
Message-id: <e53ffe3d.02053...@posting.google.com> >>
I agree. I've been sort of following this one.
Hard to know for certain, but I think Mason was trying to reach an accord with
Diane from Green Bay without actually going belly up. It's difficult (and
dishonest) to concede you're wrong when you think you're right. And that
probably was Mason's position.
Sometimes when you have a disagreement with someone and you both think you're
right, talking it out will somewhat resolve the issue without either party
budging much. The idea in having an open discussion here is that each party
will at least come to understand the other's point of view.
I can't imagine that a businessman would go out of his way to harass a
potential customer who is also in a position to influence other potential
customers. Of course what is a discussion to one may be an argument or
harassment to another.
Mason's intent may matter here, if you are willing to have an open mind about
the issue. Perhaps most of us can recall having a difference of opinion with
someone, trying to talk it out, but only making matters worse.
As it turns out, Mason would have done better by not asking Diane why she "said
such mean things and lied about him." I think to say that he would either have
to be kidding, or genuinely feel hurt and misunderstood.
When Diane "responded head on" and told him that anything she "had posted on
rgp or 2+2 was a valid and
true statement" and that she "stood 100% behind everything" she said, Mason
should have immediately backed off, or at least taken a different tack.
I can't imagine that Mason's original intention in moving over next to Diane
was to get in an argument with her and verbally harass her, but her response to
him had to seem like a slap in the face. And there he was - stuck.
Sometimes I find myself in a hand I don't really want to be playing, like maybe
when I barely have odds to call a single bet and then someone behind me raises,
and there I am - stuck. It happens when I expect one thing and then get
another.
We don't always react well to those situations. It was a tough play all around
- for everyone concerned. Just my opinion.
Buzz
Jaeger T. Cat
@posting.google.com:
>
> This newsgroup is a high school. Full of cliques and factions.
> Golden boys and screw-ups, and...popular girls. Full of everything
> except poker.
>
The group is what its posters are.
So far, you've contributed a flame, and a lame attempt
at spin control. Thank you _oh_ _so_ _much_ for adding
such erudite poker discussion to this august forum.
>
> WHO CARES DIANE????? Somebody bugged you in a card game. So what?
>
If you don't want to read it, don't read it.
Oh, and Shut the Fuck Up already, m-kay?
--
Eric J. Holtman (Jaeger T. Cat)
http://www.ericholtman.com
PGP Key: http://www.ericholtman.com/pgp.txt
Niven's Law 1a: Never throw shit at an armed man.
Niven's Law 1b: Never stand next to a man throwing shit at an armed man.
______________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
Diane from Green Bay
> >From: hrd...@aol.com (Diane from Green Bay)
>
> >Each time I reminded him of something he had done or said in past, his
> >memory was very selective in terms of the things I brought up.
>
> Maybe the poor thing has Alzheiner's. Did you consider that possibility?
>
>
>
I doubt that is the case.
However, it is interesting that Mason has chosen NOT to reply here.
Why is he so silent? I didn't necessarily expect a reply, but find it
interesting.
Interesting also is that I was told that there was a thread on 2+2
regarding this rgp post of mine. I went there and checked it out (I
won't respond there, but admit to going there and reading it out after
it was pointed out by a friend)
Mason HAS reponded to my rgp post on the 2+2 "News, Views, and
Gossip" (or something like that) portion of their forum. "dissing
Mason" and "Celebrity Boxing" is apparently a popular topic right now
in that forum.
Diane
Carl
beings, whether at the card table or elsewhere, and Mr. M seems to
have failed in this goal. It's worth knowing so we can decide how to
punish him for his behavior (not buy his books, perhaps). I am not
part of any clique or faction and I was interested in her post.
Of course, it was your post that was annoying enough to get me to
respond. To paraphrase you: If you don't like what she's doing, learn
to deal. Don't whine about it. What hypocrisy.
turg...@aol.com (OrangeSFO) wrote in message news:<a9255354.02053...@posting.google.com>...
Ed Brayton
>This newsgroup is a high school. Full of cliques and factions.
>Golden boys and screw-ups, and...popular girls. Full of everything
>except poker.
And you've added to the non-poker content considerably. If this
newsgroup is so bad, perhaps you should exercise your right to not
read it
>I'm just amused at how Saint Diane has appointed herself poker's Miss
>Manners and lives under the assumption that anybody gives a crap about
>her bleatings concerning who was not nice to her, who said a bad word
>in her presence.
>
>WHO CARES DIANE????? Somebody bugged you in a card game. So what?
So some of us care. You clearly don't. So you can read the threads you
do care about. But rather than doing that, you're whining like a
little kid.
Ed Brayton
Keith Ellul
> The point is we should all try to be reasonably civilized human
> beings, whether at the card table or elsewhere, and Mr. M seems to
> have failed in this goal. It's worth knowing so we can decide how to
> punish him for his behavior (not buy his books, perhaps). I am not
> part of any clique or faction and I was interested in her post.
I find this kind of funny. Not buy the guy's books because you don't like
the way that he acts? I don't get it. You are free to make your decisions
based on whatever you want I guess. Here are my criteria:
I choose my friends based on whether I like them or not. I choose
my books based on price and usefulness. It seems like if you do it
any other way you are just screwing yourself over.
("punish him"... that cracks me up)
Keith
Kewpie Doll
guy quite a bit, but having read his book, I find it is excellent. And if
I'm not mistaken, I don't think I've ever seen a bad comment about that
book, even from many people who don't think much of the author (from a
non-poker point of view)
I played poker many times against Mason and he's not such a bad guy. We all
have our bad moments, and when you have someone who is somewhat known, that
is all people like to talk about, the bad things they say or do.
I had Whitney Houston tell me to f-off once. But she's probably a nicer
person than that usually.
"Keith Ellul" <kbe...@fe02.math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.4.44.020531...@fe02.math.uwaterloo.ca...
Carl
Ok, I grant you that "punish" is a bit dramatic, and I don't know if I
would go to that extent in this case (particularly since the info is
heresay), but I do think that my approach is good, in theory at least.
I don't separate my world into who I like and whether its useful. If
I "liked" a friend, but found out that they secretly advocated sex
with kids, I'd certainly break off the friendship, no matter how fun
they still were to hang out with. If an author I liked turned out to
be a neo-Nazi, I'd certainly stop buying his books (it's not that the
ideas in the books might necessarily be bad--after all, even neo-Nazis
could be good poker writers--but I wouldn't want to give the person
any royalties).
Or to put it less dramatically, if I don't buy the book of a jerk, I
lose out by not being able to read a possibly useful/good book, but I
gain by not supporting one more jerk (a type the world has too many of
already).
One could carry this kind of thing to silly levels (I don't
investigate the morals of every author I read) but as a theoretical
approach, I see nothing wrong with it.
Of course, given the weakish evidence and relatively mild offense
(being a schmuck), I'd probably still buy the guys books.
I probably haven't convinced you. My friends are equally skeptical.
C'est la vie.
carl
Diane from Green Bay
> << Subject: Re: My unpleasant encounter with Mason and verbal harassment at
> Bellagio
> From: adama...@aol.com (adam)
> Date: Thu, May 30, 2002 11:52 AM
> Message-id: <e53ffe3d.02053...@posting.google.com> >>
>
>
> I agree. I've been sort of following this one.
>
> I can't imagine that Mason's original intention in moving over next to Diane
> was to get in an argument with her and verbally harass her, but her response to
I have no doubt in my mind that he purposely moved to that seat to
challenge me on my past comments. Remember, we had not spoken
previously at all. I said nothing to him. His very first words to me
were the challenge as to my past comments. No "hi", or "hello, Diane"
nothing like that at all.
However, despite that, your post has given me something to reflect on.
I tried to send you a private email response, but it kept bouncing
back. Thanks for your comments.
Diane
Bad Bob
him one day at the Zoo with my brand new Minolta do everything camera, so
I yell "Smile Flippo" and he yell's back "I don't have to, I'm on my
lunch break" sure busted my bubble. Now everytime I see a clown face I
have a panic attack....go figure.
raliiduul urchanii
someone like "Silberstein", or some others you WILL NEVER SEE, in person,
BECAUSE THEY DON'T PLAY POKER, THEY DON'T PLAY CRAPS, THEY DON'T GO IN
CASINOS. THEY ONLY WRITE POKER TRASH. I stiff dealers ALL THE TIME, because
where I play, the dealers share their tokes. Mason has his own reasons for
what he does. I don't toke dealers, who have a bad attitude toward me, while
they treat others with personable respect and graciousness. I'm tired of the
entire "dealer" phenomenon. I wish there was a poker dealing machine.
"Patrick B. O'Malley" <pbo...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:XxYI8.35622$R_4....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> I can second his behavior as well. Played with him for about 3 hours in
the
> $30/60 game the other weekend. Stiffed the dealer on both pots he won and
I
> was amazed because knowing he was a writer, I thought that was kinda odd.
> Then when he whined and berated a tourist player after losing a few times,
I
> realized that he must be like this all the time. I lost any respect I had
> for him as a writer just watching his demeanor and the fact that he penny
> pinched each time he won. I guess this is seen by more than just myself.
>
> --
> Patrick B. O'Malley
>
> "Diane from Green Bay" <hrd...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:112260ba.02052...@posting.google.com...
> > Each time I reminded him of something he had done or said in past, his
Art Santella
<si...@convex.net> wrote:
I don't toke dealers, who have a bad attitude toward me, while
>they treat others with personable respect and graciousness. I'm tired of the
>entire "dealer" phenomenon.
Do you tip any dealer?
I wish there was a poker dealing machine.
Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
Arty
Mason Malmuth
dealers regularly. In fact, I probably toke more than most professional
players, but certainly not as much as some tourists, and I don't toke every
time I win a pot.
As for your complaints about dealer quality, I understand your feelings.
This has been a nationwide problem for a long time. However, there is some
good news in this area, dealers are improving, and cardroom management at
most locations is making the effort.
Also, I believe I have done more in this area than virtually everyone else
by helping to write and publish our book THE PROFESSIONAL POKER DEALER'S
HANDBOOK by Dan Paymar, Donna Harris, and Mason Malmuth. It is a book that
our company has produced at a finacial lost (so far) but we have sold over
2,000 copies and it sets the standards for for how a poker dealer should
preform his job. Several cardrooms have bought it in fairly large quantities
(50 to 200) to help train their dealers, and we have given away several
hundred copies as well.
By the way, Dan Paymar has been teaching poker dealing at local dealer
schools for years, Donna Harris is poker room manager at The Mirage, and I
am of course a player/writer who actually does play real poker in real
cardrooms.
MM
"raliiduul urchanii" <si...@convex.net> wrote in message
news:RkJL8.24378$d7.67...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
Jonathan Kaplan.com>
>
>Despite what you may read from people who don't know me at all, I toke
>dealers regularly. In fact, I probably toke more than most professional
>players, but certainly not as much as some tourists, and I don't toke every
>time I win a pot.
>
>
i played a little bit with MM in the bellagio 30/60 game the past few weeks.
if i recall correctly, i saw him win three pots during my time there. one, a
small pot, was won on the flop and generated no tip.
the other two, moderate pots that went to showdown, generated tips for the
dealer(s).
seemed reasonable to me. by that tiny sample size, i couldnt call MM cheap in
this way. in fact, i was a little surprised to hear this particular criticism.
kind of like ragging on the devil cause his outfit was a little dirty.
surely there are better reasons for ragging?...grin
Jonathan
no matter where you go, there you are....
Steve Badger
> As for your complaints about dealer quality, I understand your feelings.
> This has been a nationwide problem for a long time. However, there is some
> good news in this area, dealers are improving, and cardroom management at
> most locations is making the effort.
This is ridiculous.
> Also, I believe I have done more in this area than virtually everyone else
Scary.
Vince lepore
You said it all when you said "Mason and I have "clashed" a few times
on this newsgroup and on 2+2." Your clashes were probably just like
this one, non poker related. I love the way you twist things to
verify how disgusting you believe Mason is for daring to "clash" with
you. The "dealer almost choked" was particularly clever.
Tell me now and the rest of the readers of this thread, again, why it
is that you felt "compelled" to relay this story about Mason? Was it
to defend Sgt Rock's honor? Did he ask for your assisstance? If so I
suppose those like Chuck Humphrey that defend you are correct. You
are just a good ol gal trying to do her best to uphold the integrity
of the poker world. To keep it from falling under the disgusting
influences of the evil poker authority named Mason Malmuth.
Dianne just what in the hell are you trying to prove? Are you telling
the poker world that Mason Malmuth is some kind of an ogre? Someone
that cannot be trusted. Are you saying that poker players, novice to
advanced. cannot truat the poker material that he publishes? If that
is what you are trying to do then you certainly do not have the best
interests of the poker playing world in your heart. You know as well
as I that the best avaiable poker advice anywhere is published by Two
Plus Two publishing. Yes, you know it and I know it and so does any
mid limit winning poker player anywhere. I see you here as no more
than a vindictive person attempting to discredit someone she just
doesn't like for no good reason at all. You dear, are a public
disgrace. And those that sympathise with you hear are more interested
in character assassination than anything else. I would be willing to
bet that you have aquired the majority of your poker knowledge from
material Mason has written and or published. But instead of
appropriately thanking him and Sklansky you dis them at every
opportunity. That, my dear, is sad. Hopefully, you can see that and
maybe apologize to the poker world for your selfishly hateful and
totally useless report posted here.
Vince
lvdlrs
unpleasant encounter with Mason. I'm sure you must have one. What
was it? Let's encourage others to pipe up with theirs. If only Mike Caro
were still here.
Gary (...) Philips
Diane from Green Bay
> Dianne,
>
Diane (one "n")
> You said it all when you said "Mason and I have "clashed" a few times
> on this newsgroup and on 2+2." Your clashes were probably just like
> this one, non poker related.
"clashed" means we have disagreed publicly in the past. As a faithful
follower of 2+2 you must remember those past posts.
I love the way you twist things to
> verify how disgusting you believe Mason is for daring to "clash" with
> you. The "dealer almost choked" was particularly clever.
Not sure how "twist things" applies, perhaps you can give me an
example? Especially since "Josh W" on 2+2 has already verified he was
at the table and heard our exchange.
> Tell me now and the rest of the readers of this thread, again, why it
> is that you felt "compelled" to relay this story about Mason? Was it
> to defend Sgt Rock's honor?
"Defend honor" is too strong of a statement. I simply added my
experience in order to add validation to what he had said after Mason
replied with a different version.
Did he ask for your assisstance?
Nope.
>If so I suppose those like Chuck Humphrey that defend you are
correct. You
> are just a good ol gal trying to do her best to uphold the integrity
> of the poker world.
Vince,
I remember distinctly when we met and had a rather pleasant
conversation during the Orleans tourney a few years ago. I am
surprised by the intensity of your post. I hope I am a "good ol gal"
but since I am still on the left side of 50, not sure if the "ol" part
applies. I will however, plead guilty as charged to
the idea of doing my best to improve the poker world and make it less
intimidating and more friendly for new players.
>To keep it from falling under the disgusting influences of the evil
poker authority named Mason Malmuth.
Never said he was evil. Don't believe I used the word disgusting
either. I agree with you though that he is definitely a poker
authority.
> Dianne just what in the hell are you trying to prove? Are you telling
> the poker world that Mason Malmuth is some kind of an ogre?
I am sharing my personal experience with Mason in a public cardroom
with the rgp world. Not trying to prove a thing. "Ogre" isn't a good
word either.
"socially challenged" is more appropriate.
>Someone that cannot be trusted.
I don't believe I got into any discussion regarding trust. Depends
how you define it - if you mean was I worried that Mason would steal
my chips if I left the table - answer is definitely no.
>Are you saying that poker players, novice to
> advanced. cannot truat the poker material that he publishes?
Nope, not saying that either.
>If that> is what you are trying to do then you certainly do not have
the best
> interests of the poker playing world in your heart. You know as well
> as I that the best avaiable poker advice anywhere is published by Two
> Plus Two publishing. Yes, you know it and I know it and so does any
> mid limit winning poker player anywhere.
We absolutely agree here. In my posts where I mention Mason or David,
there is generally a comment along the lines of how much they have
added to the world of poker from their writings. They have taught
many of us (especially me) much about poker and their writing has
improved my game. My copies of their books are dog eared, highlighted
and worn out. They are both brilliant.
>I see you here as no more
> than a vindictive person attempting to discredit someone she just
> doesn't like for no good reason at all.
Vince, we have had only one real life conversation and perhaps
exchanged emails in the past or posts on 2+2. I don't recall exactly
in regards to posts/emails.
However, it is clear that you do NOT know me. Vindictive is not a
word me, my poker acquaintenances, or my friends would use to describe
me (IMO)
You dear, are a public
> disgrace.
How can I be both a "dear" and a "public disgrace"?
And those that sympathise with you hear are more interested
> in character assassination than anything else.
Or..........they simply agree with me and many have shared their own
"Mason" experiences as well.
I would be willing to
> bet that you have aquired the majority of your poker knowledge from
> material Mason has written and or published.
No bet necessary. You win, hands down. I agree with you ....see
above.
But instead of
> appropriately thanking him and Sklansky you dis them at every
> opportunity.
No, I am sure I have missed some opportunities.
>That, my dear, is sad.
Vince, based on the words here, I am clearly not YOUR dear, so please
refrain from calling me that. "Diane" is fine as a salutation.
>Hopefully, you can see that and > maybe apologize to the poker world
for your selfishly hateful and> totally useless report posted here.
Nope, won't apologize. I stand behind all I said as being a truthful
rendition of what happened at table. Mason basically confirmed it as
well. "killfill" is certainly an option if you feel my posts are
offbase and "useless"
Vince, your constant defense of Mason smacks of blind loyalty and not
being able to see that the he has some warts. Mason has a brilliant
mind, has added tremendously to the poker world by sharing his
knowledge. But he has some faults as well.
I have no desire to stay in a pissing contest with you. Matter of
fact, I was disappointed that you jumped in on me like this. We have
gotten along in the past to my knowledge. Maybe I was wrong about
you.
Diane
Diane from Green Bay
MIA??
Vince lepore
I believe that you are a very bright person. I believe that you knew
precisely what you were trying to accomplish with your post
emphatically titled "My unpleasant encounter with Mason...." Is that
"simply adding" your experience? Please! You may not believe that
"vindictive" fits your purpose but when I read your post that is
exactly the impression I get. You don't know Mason Malmuth. In fact
if I'm not miataken "your encounter" was the first and only face to
face discussion you ever had with Mason. I do not recall seeing
anything from Mason about his unpleasant encounter with you. Yet you
felt it necessary to post yours here on rgp. Why? I guess that the
world needed to know that you had a bad experience with Mason. As far
as my "blind loyalty" to Mason goes I admit it I like Mason. I know
Mason and his charming wife Charmaine. I've had dinner with them on a
number of occaisions. I have sat and watched him play poker many
times. Not once have I seen him exhibit the kind of behavior you have
attributed to him here.
Dianne I was very disappointed to see you among the Mason "internet"
bashers. Why do some people feel that is it necesaary to try and
discredit others for their own personal satisfaction? I did not count
you among the unfair posters on these forums until reading this last
post of yours. Tell me did you ask that dealer if Mason ever stiffed
her? Or did you just aassume she was agreeing with you by "almost
choking"? I guess it's o.k. to accuse someone of something and then
back up your accusations with your own perception of other peoples
actions. Maybe before you slander someone you should get your facts
straight. Maybe you should have asked the dealer if Mason ever
stiffed her before posting that she implied by choking that he had.
That would have been the fair thing to do in my opinion. Mason
Malmuth gets a lot of unfavorable criticism up here on these POKER
forums. Not for his poker advice, for his personality. I for one
believe these attacks are caused by jealousy. You can't get him on
poker so attack him personally. Quite frankly I think that stinks.
Vince
sweater
>I'm not miataken "your encounter" was the first and only face to
>face discussion you ever had with Mason. I do not recall seeing
>anything from Mason about his unpleasant encounter with you.
Perps usually don't talk.
How old are you?
>Dianne I was very disappointed to see you among the Mason "internet"
>bashers. Why do some people feel that is it necesaary to try and
>discredit others for their own personal satisfaction?
Why do wannabe bullies like Malmuth continually attempt
to insult and push around others? Why do many other people
report similar bad experiences with him? Are they all liars?
Is Abdul a liar?
> Maybe before you slander someone you should get your facts
>straight.
Pot, Kettle, Black ... chucklehead.
>Mason
>Malmuth gets a lot of unfavorable criticism up here on these POKER
>forums.
Hey, Vince, this is usenet, not a 'forum'. Once you actually
learn to find out where you are, you will discover that a
poster can't be bullied here and they can't be banned
by a 'leader'.
However, you seem like the type that would like someone
to 'take charge' of you, if you catch my drift, so sniffing
Malmouth's ass over on 2+2 probably will suit you better.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"..I would be careful walking out that door at night or starting up
your car. After all you're not exactly the low profile type of guy.
They won't have a hard time tracking you down. Or maybe a couple
of locals looking to get rich,taping Russ and car go boom and
selling copies." - Dave Keiser [Enforcer] http://tinyurl.com/bv0
---------------------------------------------------------------------
sweater
>I'm not miataken "your encounter" was the first and only face to
>face discussion you ever had with Mason. I do not recall seeing
>anything from Mason about his unpleasant encounter with you.
Perps usually don't talk.
How old are you?
>Dianne I was very disappointed to see you among the Mason "internet"
>bashers. Why do some people feel that is it necesaary to try and
>discredit others for their own personal satisfaction?
Why do wannabe bullies like Malmuth continually attempt
to insult and push around others? Why do many other people
report similar bad experiences with him? Are they all liars?
Is Abdul a liar?
> Maybe before you slander someone you should get your facts
>straight.
Pot, Kettle, Black ... chucklehead.
>Mason
>Malmuth gets a lot of unfavorable criticism up here on these POKER
>forums.
Hey, Vince, this is usenet, not a 'forum'. Once you actually
Diane from Green Bay
Vince,
It seemed appropriate based on your strong reaction to my earlier
posts to rename this thread and "retire" the old one. I assume you
don't mind?
Now to continue our discussion........
> Dianne,
>
> I believe that you are a very bright person. I believe that you knew
> precisely what you were trying to accomplish with your post
> emphatically titled "My unpleasant encounter with Mason...." Is that
> "simply adding" your experience? Please! You may not believe that
> "vindictive" fits your purpose but when I read your post that is
> exactly the impression I get.
If I was vindictive, why didn't I simply include it in my original
trip report? I could have easily thrown it in there, but didn't.
Sgt. Rock's report is what triggered it, believe it or not. Perhaps my
words for the thread title were viewed as inflammatory by some, I will
accept that. I could have used a different title. I will concede
that point.
You don't know Mason Malmuth. In fact
> if I'm not miataken "your encounter" was the first and only face to
> face discussion you ever had with Mason.
I have played with Mason at the Mirage probably a dozen times over the
years, never for extended periods beyond 3-4 hours a session if that.
There has been a small amount of usual table conversation - but not
much. As you know from watching him and being his friend, he isn't
much into small talk.
On the other hand, I tend to talk a lot......Mason also attended a
luncheon I organized for a small group of rgpers and 2+2 participants
at the Mirage during one of my tourney trips a few years ago. I don't
purport to "know" him well. I only know very well my experience with
him on this last trip.
I do not recall seeing
> anything from Mason about his unpleasant encounter with you.
Mason has responded to this topic both on 2+2 and rgp. He verified
that it happened. It was Abdul's response to my rgp post that got
Abdul's post deleted and caused his departure from 2+2. Mason hasn't
posted as many times as I have about it - but he clearly has discussed
it online.
Perhaps HE was embarassed by it? - please remember that I said
absolutely nothing to Mason at table up to that time. HE moved
purposely to the open seat and then started in on me. Up until then
we had not spoken a word at the table. I sat there with my mouth shut
and did nothing to engage him. I had plenty of others to chat with.
Yet you> felt it necessary to post yours here on rgp. Why? I guess
that the
> world needed to know that you had a bad experience with Mason. As far
> as my "blind loyalty" to Mason goes I admit it I like Mason. I know
> Mason and his charming wife Charmaine. I've had dinner with them on a
> number of occaisions. I have sat and watched him play poker many
> times. Not once have I seen him exhibit the kind of behavior you have
> attributed to him here.
I believe you. I believe you are personal friends with Mason and his
wife. But I also think that colors your ability to accept the fact
that he might react under different circumstances, in a poker room,
with non-friends.
Vince, it isn't just me. There have been plenty of other "Mason"
stories floating here and on 2+2 as indicated by your comment below.
Are we all wrong? Everyone has their shortcomings including me. He
is not without faults.
>
> Dianne I was very disappointed to see you among the Mason "internet"
> bashers.
It wasn't criticism simply for the sake of criticism. I did it to
lend credibility to what I felt was Sgt. Rock's version of the
situation at the Mirage as not being an isolated event. I have no
desire to increase my personal visibility or engage in posts other
than those that have personal interest for me. These are not vanity
items or simply designed to call attention to myseolf.
I gave up on 2+2 a long time ago as I am sure you may recall. When I
publicly left 2+2 I said the final straw that sucked all the fun out
of 2+2 was Mason's comments about the motivation for some of my posts
there.
I generally check rgp every few days, (daily lately) lurking most of
the time,and only jump into a thread on a rare occasion. Usually to
provide information to a question someone has asked. I don't go off
half - cocked attacking people for the sake of attacking them. There
are enough of those on this ng - I don't want to be like them, and
don't feel I have entered their ranks by telling my recent Mason
experience.
Why do some people feel that is it necesaary to try and
> discredit others for their own personal satisfaction?
I did not get "personal satisfaction" from that post. If I was
looking for that, I would not have posted what was bound to be a
controversial item. I received responses both for and against Mason.
I did not count> you among the unfair posters on these forums until
reading this last
> post of yours.
Not sure what your standards are for this, but I don't feel I have
unfairly posted anything (ok..... the ONE thread on GC would probably
qualify as "unfair", but that was it) So I still think you should
"deduct" me from your count of unfair posters. But it is your list,
not mine.
Tell me did you ask that dealer if Mason ever stiffed
> her?
No, I did not question the dealer.
Or did you just aassume she was agreeing with you by "almost
> choking"?
After Mason had left to go to the other game, she looked at me and
said that it was a "joke for Mason to say he never stiffed the
dealers". She volunteered it.
I guess it's o.k. to accuse someone of something and then
> back up your accusations with your own perception of other peoples
> actions.
Vince, I am confused. How can relaying my first hand encounter be an
"accusation" and a perception? I reported what the dealer said to me
and what Mason said to me.
Even Mason acknowledged that the conversation took place as posted. He
has NOT denied any portion of my report. His comments about the
confrontation, simply are his explanation of WHY he decided to engage
me and challenge me on my past statements about him over the years.
Not once has Mason denied that this took place. I did not make it up.
Besides Mason, Josh W also posted on 2+2 that he was present at the
table at the time and confirmed my statement on what happened.
Maybe before you slander someone you should get your facts
> straight.
I haven't read a law book or been in a courtroom in a long time, but
.........to my knowledge repeating a first hand rendition of a true
event does not qualify as slander. I will let one of the other legal
practitioners respond if they want. That's not my area of expertise.
Maybe you should have asked the dealer if Mason ever
> stiffed her before posting that she implied by choking that he had.
> That would have been the fair thing to do in my opinion.
I didn't have to ask her - she volunteered it promptly upon Mason
leaving the table. I don't know if she personally was stiffed by
Mason or not - or if she was merely relaying "dealer gossip". I
didn't question her.
Mason
> Malmuth gets a lot of unfavorable criticism up here on these POKER
> forums. Not for his poker advice, for his personality. I for one
> believe these attacks are caused by jealousy.
LOL..........I am not jealous of Mason. He has nothing that I want. I
have repeatedly commented how beneficial his advice and writings have
been on a personal basis to me.
You can't get him on
> poker so attack him personally. Quite frankly I think that stinks.
Vince
I could not care less if I "get him in poker" or not. I am not one of
those poker groupies who wants to be able to say "I beat Mason
Malmouth". There is no "chip envy" in this ol girl in regards to
Mason.
I generally do not want to play with Mason, Roy Cooke, Mike Halford,
Cissy Bottoms, Barbara Enright, Jan Fisher, or the other tough "name"
players who may occasionally frequent my mid-limit games. I already
know they are much better than me and I am not going to best them at
the table. I might get lucky on a hand or two, but in short order my
chips will be in their stacks. So I try and transfer out of those
games to a softer one which is then more fun for me.
Poker for me is fun, truly recreation-everyone who has played with me
or knows me, KNOWS THAT. Poker doesn't put food on my table or put my
kids through college. It is simply what I do for fun. I have a
wonderful job that pays very well, I get to travel at company expense
frequently tying poker into a business trip. My husband retired 6
years ago at age 45 from a very successful business that he built from
the ground up. We don't NEED my poker money. We will certainly take
it and I like the "keeping score", but money I win in live action
won't change my life.
Others may golf, garden, or go to Hawaii on vacation - Diane plays
poker and travels to tourneys on her vacation time.
But after all this is said and done, you are entitled to your personal
opinion of me. If you think my comments "stink" then so be it. I
still stand by the veracity of what I posted here. I won't recant on
any point because I simply stated the facts and (sounding like a
broken records....) Mason himself personally verified the encounter in
his posts on 2+2. He repeated exactly what I had said happened. You
just don't like that I posted it for others to know - I guess you
would prefer to sweep it away and pretend it didn't happen and that
Mason is wonderful, warm and friendly 100% of the time just like he is
with you. Vince, that just isn't the case. Away from the table he
may be a swell fellow - at the table that isn't always the case. NOr
do I mean to imply that he is always a problem at the table, that
isn't true either. But he did cause a problem for me the last trip to
Vegas. I won't let that happen again.
Diane
Diane
AL
>From: hrd...@aol.com (Diane from Green Bay)
I read this whole post until I got to this...
>Diane plays
>poker and travels to tourneys
there is just something about people talking in the third person that is
sickening.
Diane from Green Bay
Al,
Sorry if I offended you. I guess it did sound pompous, and that
wasn't my intent.
The "Diane" thing dates back several years to when I would organize
social events at the various tourneys for rgp and 2+2. We would get
together for lunch or breakfast and get to see each other face to
face. Many of us could not make the 'ARGE events, so this was our
time to socialize.
I would use the "Diane is going to Vegas" titles on the threads.
After awhile it crept into my other trip reports and threads. My
speech and verbal conversation does NOT contain the use of "Diane does
this" or the like. So perhaps you can cut me some slack here.
Others have criticized it in past (use of third person) and I have
tried to avoid it. It slipped in here from posting
habit.........sorry if it made you "sick".
It wasn't used because I am the almighty "DIANE" - I have no delusions
of grandeur, it was just something I used to do in trip reports
primarily.
Now that you have mentioned it again, I will do my best to avoid doing
it.
Diane
rschmied
blue...@aol.comRemove (AL) wrote in message news:<20020611005724...@mb-mj.aol.com>...
Jan Fisher
are fed up. You can talk to me in 18th person as long as ya talk to me! Hmm,
where was that "hands off" Diane thread? LOL. See you in July at the WPPC
(World Poker Players Conference) at the Orleans July 5. How bout that for
spamming em?
;-)
Jan Fisher
Card Player Cruises
http://www.cardplayercruises.com/
lvdlrs
18th person, I can relate as I was always the last guy picked for our
pickup game of baseball.
Gary (right field can be a very lonely place) Philips
Jan Fisher
>Sure win a tournament and get all bold and everything. And about this
>18th person, I can relate as I was always the last guy picked for our
>pickup game of baseball.
>
Uh, second captain, first choose. Have a familiar ring to it?
Thanks for the tip about the WPO being on tonight. I hope it is this recent one
as the Brenes brothers are counting on me bringing a copy with me to Costa
Rica!
AL
>to Vince")
>From: hrd...@aol.com (Diane from Green Bay)
>Sorry if I offended you.
Diane - no "offense" was taken.
Maybe I wrote it poorly.
I just meant that it is annoying to read when people refer to themselves in the
3rd person.
I've learned to tolorate/accept it from Mike Caro because...hmmm ...well
because that's Mike, you know.
> I guess it did sound pompous, and that
>wasn't my intent.
>The "Diane" thing dates back several years to when I would organize
>social events at the various tourneys for rgp and 2+2. We would get
>together for lunch or breakfast and get to see each other face to
>face. Many of us could not make the 'ARGE events, so this was our
>time to socialize.
>I would use the "Diane is going to Vegas" titles on the threads.
>After awhile it crept into my other trip reports and threads. My
>speech and verbal conversation does NOT contain the use of "Diane does
>this" or the like. So perhaps you can cut me some slack here.
>Others have criticized it in past (use of third person) and I have
>tried to avoid it. It slipped in here from posting
>habit.........sorry if it made you "sick".
I meant "sick" on the sense of "sickening to read".
I didn't go vomit or anything!!
>It wasn't used because I am the almighty "DIANE" - I have no delusions
>of grandeur, it was just something I used to do in trip reports
>primarily.
Thank you for your explanation.
I will refrain from addressing it in the future :-)
>Now that you have mentioned it again, I will do my best to avoid doing
>it.
No - now that I/we understand why, it is most acceptable!
-AL
john selix
helpful post here.IMHO he is in the same catagory as Russ and
Razzo-they just nit nit nit at any little thing rather than trying to
understand the meaning or message someone is trying to get across so
they can see their name in print.
John
PS-Weve never met ,but maybe our paths will cross some day.Being a
fellow Wisconsinite I read your posts.
BillM
> lepo...@hotmail.com (Vince lepore) wrote in message news:<bbdd5c2d.0206...@posting.google.com>...
>
> Vince,
[snip, done with aid of lumberjack crew]
Shouldn't there have been the word "long" in the title somewhere?
"Choose tooooo..., let this gooo-oooh...." - TOOL
Jd00123
>It wasn't used because I am the almighty "DIANE" - I have no delusions
>of grandeur, it was just something I used to do in trip reports
>primarily.
Diane,the mighty Mason-slayer,;)
Jd00123
>to Vince")
>Thank you for your explanation.
>I will refrain from addressing it in the future :-)
Ahhh,another dragon slain.......;)
AL
>to Vince")
>Ive yet to see him make a positive or
>helpful post here
do a google search..
I've posted many positive and helpful posts. I'd list a few, but who cares.
Sorry if my other posts bother you... don't read them.
Vince lepore
My comment that "you can't get him in poker" referred to Mason's Poker
knowledge not beating him at the table. People up here on the net
can't effectively attack his poker knowledge so they go after him
personally. Is Mason the only person that you have had an unpleasant
experience with at the poker table? Have you publicly spanked them
also? I do not believe I challenged the veracity of your "encounter".
I wasn't there. I challenged you on your dealer reference because you
did not bother to ask the dealer if Mason ever stiffed her and if so
why. That's wrong in my opinion. I challenged the reason for your
posting about it here on rgp. "Sgt Rock's.. triggered it" Come on
Dianne be honest. You read Rock's report and the door bell rang
"Opportunity" I'll get that bas..... You got challenged but that was
o.k because you can just blaim Sgt Rock for starting this whole thing.
After all he needed validation to be credible now didn't he? So there
you were to help out. Wow, how childish.
As for "slander". You accused Mason whether directly or indirectly up
here on rgp of "stiffing dealers" without even one iota of proof. I
call that slander.
The lady doth protest too much. I was not referring to you regarding
jealous posters but perhaps given your tempetuous response the shoe
fit's, my lady.
"Standing by the veracity" of what you wrote here does not make it
right.
Vince
hrd...@aol.com (Diane from Green Bay) wrote in message news:<112260ba.02061...@posting.google.com>...
Gary Carson
wrote:
>knowledge not beating him at the table. People up here on the net
>can't effectively attack his poker knowledge so they go after him
Sure we can.
Gary Carson
http:// garycarson.home.mindspring.com
Diane from Green Bay
Bill,
You are right. Normally I do include the warning of "long" with one
of my posts that include this much text. Will keep it in mind.
Diane
Diane from Green Bay
Dear Jan,
I have not intention of leaving rgp, this is where my heart is and the
source of many wonderful friendships. Thanks for the message of
support.
You can count on me at the Orleans, wouldn't miss it. I think I even
have the luxury of a ten day trip this time. So it will give me
plenty of time to catch up with my poker friends.
My feeling is if the message comes from you, it is never "spam".
Diane
Peg Smith
blue...@aol.comRemove (AL) writes:
>do a google search..
>I've posted many positive and helpful posts. I'd list a few, but who cares.
>
AL and I share occasional e-mails and IMs, passing on information to each other
regarding our favorite poker sites when good games or tourneys come up, and
sometimes just to say, "Hi, how ya doin'?" We also don't mind pointing out when
the other is full of it or off base. I know I appreciate it when someone sticks
up for me, so I'd like to take a moment to do that for AL. I think he's a
straight shooter and a good guy.
Peg
lvdlrs
Vince lepore wrote:
As for "slander". You accused Mason whether directly or indirectly up
here on rgp of "stiffing dealers" without even one iota of proof. I
call that slander.
It's not slander if it's true.
Gary (...) Philips
From: jimmy sommerfeld
<http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=author:jsommerfeld%40mindspring.com+>
(jsomm...@mindspring.com <mailto:jsommerfeld%40mindspring.com> )
Subject: Re: Mason M. with Class
Newsgroups: rec.gambling.poker
<http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&group=rec.gambling.poker>
Date: 2000/03/15
O.k. I bit my tongue till it started bleeding.Now , i can state some
facts.Mason came to Tunica a while back...Never once
tipped............................HELLO ,MASON..........youve made thousands
or millions in this business....share your wealth.......just a buck a pot
please.
AL
>to Vince")
>. I think he's a
>straight shooter and a good guy.
Thanks Peg!
And you sure are ok in my book!
Vince lepore
> >can't effectively attack his poker knowledge so they go after him
>
> Sure we can.
>
> Gary Carson
Hey great post Gary. Did anyone help you with the spelling?
Vince
RMITCHCOLL
>>. I think he's a
>>straight shooter and a good guy.
>
>Thanks Peg!
>And you sure are ok in my book!
>
Will you guys please get a room!
sheesh :-)
Randy
Diane from Green Bay
> Danne,
>
Your spelling of my name is getting even worse.
>>
> The lady doth protest too much. I was not referring to you regarding
> jealous posters but perhaps given your tempetuous response the shoe
> fit's, my lady.
>
> "Standing by the veracity" of what you wrote here does not make it
> right.
>
> Vince
Vince,
As I told Mason when I was tired of continuing the excahnge of words,
I have had enough.........."you haven't changed my mind and I haven't
changed yours...I guess we will have to agree to disagree."
I think that statement is true here also.
Diane
PS......One "n" in Vince, One "n" in Diane.
AL
>From: hrd...@aol.com (Diane from Green Bay)
>Your spelling of my name is getting even worse.
Oh Dainnie,
Stop bein soooo picky
Fujiyama33204
>sickening.
>
>
fuji says directions to the vomitorium are available if needed.....
There's no crying in poker
lvdlrs
pronounced correctly. If you've ever been the front line of a service
oriented business, you'd know. Alternatively to purposely misspell or
mispronounce another person's name is a manner of disrespect. For
Diane to be irked by it seems rather normal and ok to me. Is that the
worst you can come up with concerning her? Seems like it's you who
are being the picky one.
Gary (...) Philips
AL
> Is that the
>worst you can come up with concerning her?
lighten up - was a joke...
sheesh
Gary Carson
On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:57:06 GMT, lvdlrs <lvd...@midsouth.rr.com>
wrote:
Gary Carson
http:// garycarson.home.mindspring.com
AJohn808
(because i for sure see a whole lot of whining going on)
>fujiya...@aol.comspamthis (Fujiyama33204)
Diane from Green Bay
> Just about everybody I know likes to have their name spelled and
>
Gary,
Thanks for the post and looking out for me. But I was pretty sure it
was a joke/gentle poking of fun at me. I did not take any offense.
Stick around though, never know when I might need you as my knight in
shining armor.......thanks for being one of the poker good guys I
count among my friends.
Diane
Diane from Green Bay
> >Subject: Re: My response to Vince (short)
> >
> sheesh
Al -
I knew this was a gentle jab and it made me laugh at the end of a very long day.
Diane
Vince lepore
> Vince lepore wrote:
>
> As for "slander". You accused Mason whether directly or indirectly up
> here on rgp of "stiffing dealers" without even one iota of proof. I
> call that slander.
>
> It's not slander if it's true.
>
> Gary (...) Philips
>
still slander. Consider the source.
Vince
lvdlrs
Vince lepore wrote:
That's a very stupid statement there Vince. Is your poker playing as
mangled? Ok,
who am I quoting here?
I also sometimes reduce my tipping to virtually nothing if I am losing heavily
in the game. I do remember being pretty stuck one of the nights that I played.
Perhaps that was when you dealt to me.
Of course you'd have to consider the source there huh, Vince? Yup, it's
ol' Mason
himself. Chew on that little tidbit for a while.
Gary (...) Philips
Jaeger T. Cat
>>
>> It's not slander if it's true.
>>
>> Gary (...) Philips
>>
> If it comes from you it doesn't matter whether it's true or not it's
> still slander. Consider the source.
>
Sproing. YAIMB. Yet Another Irony Meter Broken.
Yeah, we should just take the word of Vince, who's got his
nose so far up Mason's ass, he can see out Mason's mouth.
--
Eric J. Holtman (Jaeger T. Cat)
http://www.ericholtman.com
PGP Key: http://www.ericholtman.com/pgp.txt
Niven's Law 1a: Never throw shit at an armed man.
Niven's Law 1b: Never stand next to a man throwing shit at an armed man.
______________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
RMITCHCOLL
>
I want RGP to know that effective today I am resigning from my job. I have
purchased the AC franchise of Irony Meters and expect to make a killing. Thanks
Eric!
Randy Collack
BadgeofDishonorSiteShill
one person with so many self serving, delusionally self centered
posts.
Not only do you post huge diatribes about Mason because he rightly
confronts you face to face (instead of the cowardly forum attacks you
have done for eons), but you have to reinvent the thread every other
day, to make sure more readers will see your literary works of self
promoting genious.
How many more threads with changed names, and third person attempts to
get clicqueish "insider poker buddies" aligned with "good ole diane
from green bay, one o' the poker world good guys" can we expect to
see?
Nauseating.
You need serious therapy.
hrd...@aol.com (Diane from Green Bay) wrote in message news:<112260ba.02061...@posting.google.com>...
Vince lepore
the same page.
Vince
"Jaeger T. Cat" <e...@ericholtman.com> wrote in message news:<Xns922C5174EB515...@209.189.121.115>...
lvdlrs
Such a kidder.
Garry (...) Philips
Jaeger T. Cat
news:717d6bed.02061...@posting.google.com:
> Speaking of "asses" it's good to see that you and Phillips are stillon
> the same page.
>
Ah, the non-denial denial.
I hear Klinton's looking for a press agent, Vinnie.
Vince lepore
know how to spell clicqueish. I post this only to prove my veracity
to someone.
Vince
sbadge...@hotmail.com (BadgeofDishonorSiteShill) wrote in message news:<864d43e9.02061...@posting.google.com>...
sweater
>I did not author the above response.
>Vince
>
There is no 'above response', Vick. Why, you ask?
Because you're a stupid top-poster.
hth
----------------------------------------------------------------
"Doesn't this Sweater ask a lot of weird questions?"
- Razzo [Whoosh.Boy] - http://tinyurl.com/bvb
----------------------------------------------------------------
Fujiyama33204
Tom Hanks to his 'girls' in Major League....there's no crying in
baseball.....while they were in tears, of course. OK?!
Fujiyama33204
>nose so far up Mason's ass, he can see out Mason's mouth.
Always wondered where the inspiration came for "Being John Malcovec" came
from......