how do y'all ignore short term results?
Patri Forwalter-Friedman
do you folks use so that you care more about how you play than how you do?
My problem is that while my mind totally understands that concept, all my
gut cares about is whether I won or lost. It is simple to please and easy
to make sink - it just cares about the bottom line. It says: If you go
home with some extra money, you should feel happy, right? And if your
wallet empties out, you should feel unhappy, right?
Part of it is, I think, because I am playing higher limits than I am used
to. The money still isn't a big deal on the scale of my bankroll, but it
feels like a lot more than I am used to. Does the effect just go away in
time? It certainly dwindled a lot after I'd played low limit for a while,
because whatever win/loss results I got had happened before, usually
several times.
BTW, I have to thank whoever (S. Landrum?) reposted that Ramsey bit on
moving up. A couple nights ago, I walked into Bay 101 and saw that this
total massive fish, one of the worst players I have ever seen in my life,
was about to play 15-30. So I sit down at the table, the guy just
hemorrhages money, and naturally a fair bit of it heads my way. It would
have been tough to lose against him, and that made playing at a higher
limit much easier.
Anyway, tonight it all got given back (not to the fish, at least). I was
playing reasonably well, I thought, and getting pretty good cards, but
took some terrible beats (a 2-outer on the river and a runner-runner
flush). I ain't askin' for sympathy, i just want to know: how do y'all
get your gut to listen to your head.
Patri
BobA928674
>Alright, here's my question: What mental tricks or techniques or whatever
>do you folks use so that you care more about how you play than how you do?
By making sure that your bankroll is so big that an individual loss
doesn't distress you. In fact it just becomes a blip on the radar screen.
You need MORE than enough.
she...@pcisys.net
pa...@cs.Stanford.EDU (Patri Forwalter-Friedman) wrote:
> Alright, here's my question: What mental tricks or techniques or whatever
>I ain't askin' for sympathy, i just want to know: how do y'all
> get your gut to listen to your head.
>
> Patri
>
I thought it was the other way around, e.g. how do you get your head to
listen when your gut really tightens up. Example to follow:
2-5 hold'em, single $2 blind. 11-person table. I am two right of the Blind.
Seat positions given are relative to the button. Fifth seat is a
reasonable player, but he can play some off-beat stuff.
I am dealt AQc. UTG raises ($9 in the pot). Fourth seat folds,
fifth seat calls. Sixth, seventh, and eighth call. I look at eighth seat
and say something like: "Everyone else is in" and call. Eighth
seat says something like: "Thats why I called". Tenth seat and button fold.
Blind calls. Flop comes 84Q, all hearts.
Many players in and I have a pair of queens. Blind checks, UTG checks, and
fifth seat bets the max ($5). My gut gives a wrench saying "He has the
flush". Sixth, seventh fold ... eighth calls. I have an argument with myself
saying something like "He may only have high pair or two pair, he could have
sneaked in with KK or something like that" So I'm beat in at least two
places. UTG KK or AA maybe. Seat 5 with a possible flush. I can still feel
that wrenching in my gut, but my mind decides to call anyway. All fold to UTG
who calls. Four of us in. Flop is a rag. Check, bet, call, I call, call.
The only thing that saved me a bet on the river was the Ah. Check, check,
check, check. I show my two pair (AQ, should have waited I guess, but
most of the players know my style of play already). Seat 5 shows 97h to
take the pot. I still don't know what UTG held. Oh, and thanks for the
invite to play at your table anytime. I'll think about it. This was
at the Midnight Rose in Cripple Creek, CO.
Sherman L. Willden
she...@pcisys.net
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Tad Perry
Patri Forwalter-Friedman <pa...@cs.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>Alright, here's my question: What mental tricks or techniques or whatever
>gut cares about is whether I won or lost. It is simple to please and easy
>to make sink - it just cares about the bottom line. It says: If you go
>home with some extra money, you should feel happy, right? And if your
>wallet empties out, you should feel unhappy, right?
>
>Part of it is, I think, because I am playing higher limits than I am used
>to. The money still isn't a big deal on the scale of my bankroll, but it
>feels like a lot more than I am used to. Does the effect just go away in
>time? It certainly dwindled a lot after I'd played low limit for a while,
>because whatever win/loss results I got had happened before, usually
>several times.
>
>BTW, I have to thank whoever (S. Landrum?) reposted that Ramsey bit on
>moving up. A couple nights ago, I walked into Bay 101 and saw that this
>total massive fish, one of the worst players I have ever seen in my life,
>was about to play 15-30. So I sit down at the table, the guy just
>hemorrhages money, and naturally a fair bit of it heads my way. It would
>have been tough to lose against him, and that made playing at a higher
>limit much easier.
>
>Anyway, tonight it all got given back (not to the fish, at least). I was
>playing reasonably well, I thought, and getting pretty good cards, but
>took some terrible beats (a 2-outer on the river and a runner-runner
>get your gut to listen to your head.
I've actually posted this before, but here it is again. What you do is
keep a mental note on losing hands: were they draw outs by opponents
that you wouldn't mind repeating 1000 times, or were they cases where
you were second best the whole way and *would* mind repeating 1000
times? Similarly on your winning hands, did you draw out on them or
were you best all the way?
Even in the case of draws there is an overlay and you might not mind
repeating it 1000 times. In this case you and the other player are
both already winners (a la Morten's theorem) you're just cutting up
what the real losers have left for you.
The question that will ease your concerns is: "Would I, or wouldn't I,
mind repeating this hand with this position, this action, and this
flop against this opponent thousands of times?" That gives you the
answer as to what this single case means to you in the long-term.
Now you have to be honest about what proportion of your hands are
falling into which categories. In other words, what proportion of your
total confrontations are bad for you in the long-term and what
proportion are good for you in the long term when viewed this way?
There is more to consider than straight odds however as sometimes
there is little action to be made on a strong hand when that's all you
ever hold, unless you've given the appearance of being willing to play
a little wild on a weaker holding or on a draw. (An image play.) The
trick is to pull such tricks a small enough proportion of the time
that it is not eating into winnings. (There is probably an optimal
proportion of these plays that actually increases winnings because it
causes the pipeline of money coming into the pot to come faster.)
So sometimes a negative shortterm play can have long-term consequences
that are good for you. However, you had better be able to pinpoint
what about a particular negative play was actually positive when you
find them. If you can't it was just a negative play.
OTOH, if your activities lead opponents to start calling you when
incredibly weak, they will be on a hand with few outs and you will be
on one with many, even when you are holding just middle pair.
So besides just playing tight, do whatever it takes so that the
overall effect of your style is such that an opponent call generally
represents a draw to a small proportion of the remaining
cards. Conversely, when you are drawing make sure your hand represents
a draw to a proportion of the remaining cards that is covered by the
pot odds or at the very least the implied tilt odds or implied
confusion odds (I figure there are implied odds that come from
confusing opponents as they will not know where the line to
fold/continue against you should be drawn.)
tvp
Maverick
> By making sure that your bankroll is so big that an individual loss
> doesn't distress you. In fact it just becomes a blip on the radar screen.
The only losses that aren't distressing are the ones where you were buried
and then got out of it with maybe small loss you could justify with a food
comp.
chur...@ampsc.com
>1.Pepto 'B.
2. Write down everything you remember about the session in a journal. Try
and find that point in the game when your stomach started to sink. Replay the
key hand(s) over in your mind. If you played them correctly (which you likely
did)assure yourself that when faced with the same decisions the next time you
face them you'll play your hand the just as accurately and odds are you'll
win. Or maybe not. from "rivered five times last night by got-shots and
two-outers after making it on the turn".
Patri Forwalter-Friedman
: 2. Write down everything you remember about the session in a journal. Try
: and find that point in the game when your stomach started to sink. Replay the
Hmm, that would hand #2 after sitting down. Pocket rockets (black,
unfortunately). raise in early position, one caller. flop comes KJx (2
hearts). Looks like a great flop to catch someone with top pair thats no
good, and if i'm unlucky and he has two pair, I still have lots of outs.
I check to show weakness (representing AQ/QQ/AJ type hands), he bets, I
call. Turn is a low heart. 3 hearts, but just one opponent, still no
worries. I check raise him. River is the dreaded fourth heart. My aces
are black. He had a heart.
: key hand(s) over in your mind. If you played them correctly (which you likely
See, thats all part of the mental/gut thing. I tried replaying the key
hands in my mind, but since the key hands had bad beats at the end of
them, that didn't help at all. My mind is happy with how I played, but my
gut just cares about who scoops the pot.
: did)assure yourself that when faced with the same decisions the next time you
: face them you'll play your hand the just as accurately and odds are you'll
Sure, I understand that I should continue to try to play well, and that
will help me win in the long run. But no matter how well I play, I will
often leave the card club a loser, and when that happens, no matter what
my mind thinks about my play, my gut is unhappy. And sometimes (not too
often, I hope) I will play poorly and leave a winner, and even while I
review my mistakes and how I could have done better, my gut will be filled
with joy. I want my gut to shut up and let my mind do the job of dishing
out praise and blame.
Patri
Dave Scharf
> Alright, here's my question: What mental tricks or techniques or whatever
> do you folks use so that you care more about how you play than how you do?
I have been trying, with some success, to simply enjoy the high. Without
knowing much physiology, I suspect that the adrenelaine high is the same
physiologocally speaking whether one wins or one loses.
Play as well as you can but tell yourself you are playing for the gamblers
high and enjoy the ride. That way it's like sex or pizza... even when it's
bad, it's good.
Regards,
Dave Scharf
HitTheFlop
pa...@cs.Stanford.EDU (Patri Forwalter-Friedman) writes:
>Alright, here's my question: What mental tricks or techniques or whatever
>do you folks use so that you care more about how you play than how you do?
Look for your edge in every hand. Identify specific mistakes your
opponents make and understand that this is money you will eventually
harvest. Might not get it today but you will get it.
If you see no mistakes find another game quick.
Best Luck,
Ed (no, not that Ed!)
I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol.
KLJ Corp.
>I am dealt AQc. UTG raises ($9 in the pot). Fourth seat folds,
>fifth seat calls. Sixth, seventh, and eighth call. I look at eighth seat
>and say something like: "Everyone else is in" and call. Eighth
>seat says something like: "Thats why I called". Tenth seat and button
fold.
>Blind calls. Flop comes 84Q, all hearts.
>Many players in and I have a pair of queens. Blind checks, UTG checks, and
>fifth seat bets the max ($5). My gut gives a wrench saying "He has the
>flush". Sixth, seventh fold ... eighth calls. I have an argument with
myself
>saying something like "He may only have high pair or two pair, he could
have
>sneaked in with KK or something like that" So I'm beat in at least two
>places. UTG KK or AA maybe. Seat 5 with a possible flush. I can still
feel
>that wrenching in my gut, but my mind decides to call anyway. All fold to
UTG
>who calls. Four of us in. Flop is a rag. Check, bet, call, I call, call.
I have a question.. You have top pair with very best kicker. Why not
RAISE? Calling here loses money either way. With a raise you make someone
tell you you're beat. Hands like AA or KK cannot afford to play this flop
slow. As it turns out, the eventual winner's hand (97h) demanded to be
played fast here as well. (he can't afford to let another heart fall) NOW
if someone plays back, your head might be willing to agree with that
intuitive gut of yours. This would have cost you a lot less than calling
your way to the river.
Kevin
Albert Wang
pot odds after the showdown to confirm my decisions. Results should have
little bearing. You ARE going to lose in certain situations and sessions.
The best you can do is to analyze your play, not the results. Improve your
play and the results will take care of themselves.
Hope i'm never drawing dead,
albert
Patri Forwalter-Friedman wrote in message
<74o5n7$fni$1...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>...
>Alright, here's my question: What mental tricks or techniques or whatever
>do you folks use so that you care more about how you play than how you do?
Vegaspkr
have won that pot. I get over it by remembering that I played well and the one
thing I can't control is luck. Luck is still a big factor in poker even if you
are the best in the world. Just read up on those World Series winners. How
many of them stay rich after they win those big tournements? Look at the
professional players, how many of them are rich? The thing is that it is still
gambling no matter what and sometimes you are going to loose. The only time I
am really upset with myself is when I knew it was going bad and I stayed anyway
to try to make it better. Those are the times I loose more than I should have
because I stayed too long. You have to rocognize when it isn't going well and
cut your losses to the minimum, give up and live to play another day.
Basically, kick yourself around for the mistakes, congradulate yourself for
what you did right, and let it go. There is always a next time.
Good luck
Randie
Endroadsal
Richard Cavell
Patri Forwalter-Friedman wrote in message
<74o5n7$fni$1...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>...
>Alright, here's my question: What mental tricks or techniques or whatever
>do you folks use so that you care more about how you play than how you do?
Good question.
1. Always play with money that you can afford to lose. Losing one night
should be no big deal. You can rephrase this as 'play a size appropriate to
your bankroll'
2. I and a lot of others carry our bankroll around as casino chips, only
ever converting it into cash at the end of the month or whenever. If you
can become familiar with casino chips to the point where they're just bits
of clay, then they lose their sense of value.
3. If you track your own progress, and are honest with yourself, and you
are in fact a long term winner, you should develop a genuine apathy to the
way that the cards fall from hand to hand. This is also a key to de-telling
yourself.
4. I always refer to my wins over the past month whenever someone asks me.
If someone enquires "how did you go last night after I left", I tell them
how much I'm ahead or (gasp) behind for that month.
5. Although it's not for everyone, you can pool bankrolls or accept stakes
in yourself. From time to time I have been staked by other people,
particularly in games too big for my bank. This also has advantages that
you develop a business like attitude about your playing, you keep better
records, and feel more of a sense of responsibility towards the money. In
all games whenever I've been staked, I generally don't play in the same game
as the person staking me and I announce it when I do.
Richard.
William Chen
pa...@cs.Stanford.EDU (Patri Forwalter-Friedman) wrote:
>Alright, here's my question: What mental tricks or techniques or whatever
>do you folks use so that you care more about how you play than how you do?
>My problem is that while my mind totally understands that concept, all my
>gut cares about is whether I won or lost. It is simple to please and easy
>to make sink - it just cares about the bottom line. It says: If you go
>home with some extra money, you should feel happy, right? And if your
>wallet empties out, you should feel unhappy, right?
I might be somewhat quaified to answer this--many of the regular players
in my stud game have told me that although I may not be the best player
at the table, I'm probably the hardest to put on tilt and I usually don't
let a winning streak go to my head.
I certainly get more upset about a bad play than my short term luck. The main
factor is my beliefs about poker. I believe the leaks in my game or consistant
mistakes in similar situations are avoidable mistakes that can add up in the long run,
and I also believe that I can do nothing about luck.
I believe based on my stats and observing the poor play of some others that skill
will win out in the long run and that the long run in poker is short enough. I also
believe I have enough of firm and intuitive understanding of the statistics involved
that my beliefs are true to a very high probability.
I can also argue why all of the above is true. The point is that I completely buy
in to this. Given this, why should I be too concerened with short term results
that I know to be mostly luck?
Secondly, I put poker in perspective with everything else is life. Otherwise with
this "gut feeling" thing you still can bring up various philosophical issues of the
difference between intellectual knowledge and instinctive feelings. In general this
is a valid point--otherwise we might expect someone's [like Micheal Huffington?]
belief system to be able overcome their homosexual tendencies, for example. (Without
really getting into this let me say that being hetrosexual it would be hard for me
if it were the other way around.)
However, I look at poker as a game. Sometimes a very serious game, but still a game.
Soemthing to test my intellectual and psychological skills, but the worst that can happen
is that I lose the money I put on the table. There are far worst tragedies that you can
suffer and probably will suffer. [Yes, I know people that have ruined their lives
gambling--but I claim that they allowed themselves to do it by losing perspective om the
game.] For that risk, I'm able to have a positive expectation money, talk and discuss
strategies with you guys, and do what I consider some interesting mathematics and
statistics.
Thirdly, having a big enough bankroll for the games I am playing is a factor. I know that
given my current win rates, standard deviations, and allocated bankrolls in the games I am
playing the chances are extremely remote that I lose all of my bankroll. If you only
have a 4K bankroll and you lose 1K in a day, then you might actually have a legitimate
worry.
Also, I am affected by short term results--when I have a big loss I often wonder whether
I played badly or not. If I win big, my comfort level increases. Probably these feelings
just don't overwhelm me or affect me as much as some other players. I have often felt
genuinely good after a loss though, if I believed that I played well compared to my usual
and lost less than another player would have,
and maybe even learned something.
Hope this helps.
Patti Beadles
and ignore the actual results. This can be hard to do, but for some
people it's very important.
One of the things I used to do to reinforce this was to keep a
"mistake pool" total in my head. Whenever I bet, raised, or called
when I shouldn't have, I added that total to the mistake pool. If
I laid down a hand incorrectly, I added the value of the pot. My goal
was to get this number as close to zero as possible.
Of course, you have to be really honest with yourself about what was a
mistake and what wasn't. But even if you're not perfect about that,
it really helps to have a number that you can focus on to reinforce
your correcct play.
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles | Not just your average purple-haired
pat...@netcom.com/pat...@gammon.com | degenerate gambling adrenaline
http://www.gammon.com/ | junkie software geek leatherbyke
or just yell, "Hey, Patti!" | nethead biker.
Patri Forwalter-Friedman
: Concentrate on how you played and the decisions made. I often recalculate
: pot odds after the showdown to confirm my decisions. Results should have
One thing I like to do, when it looks like the pot odds are barely enough
to let me stay in, and I hit my draw and win the pot, is to count the size
of the pot I won. That gives me feedback as to whether my decision was
correct.
Patri
Zagie
In article <pattibF3...@netcom.com>, pat...@netcom.com (Patti Beadles)
writes:
>One of the things I used to do to reinforce this was to keep a
>"mistake pool" total in my head. Whenever I bet, raised, or called
>when I shouldn't have, I added that total to the mistake pool. If
>I laid down a hand incorrectly, I added the value of the pot. My goal
>was to get this number as close to zero as possible.
>
This is an interesting concept. Of course, sometimes you make a mistake and
end up winning because of it -- perhaps you were drawing thin but hit it
anyway. Do you subtract these? If not, then you are being way too hard on
yourself.
For example, suppose you have 8 outs (straight draw) on the turn, which means
you have 8/46 = 17.4% chance to win, or 19 to 4 against. Suppose the pot is
only offering you, say, 4 to 1 and you know opponent will fold if you hit it
(no implied odds) then you *should* fold, here. But the mistake you are making
is not the entire amount of the bet, it is only about one-fifth of a bet. You
can effectively account for this, over the long run, by adding to your "pool"
the cost of the bet when you lose, but subtracting the amount won when you win.
On the other hand, if your goal is really to punish yourself for mistakes (a
worthy goal), then it pays to exaggerate them.
Zag
Please reply to z...@zag.net
--------------------
ZagNet Consulting
http://www.zag.net
DJQualls
from the posts...
Thanks for posting the question and thanks for the replies.....
chur...@ampsc.com
> I'm not sure you really want your gut to shut up. Gut feelings are
important. You might be interested in 2+2 thread on developing intuition, one
presumed function of gut feelings. The sinking feeling after a loss will
always be there, I think, at least it's always been a familiar part of too
many post-mortems in my journal. At the table I don't suffer from the
queasies anymore. I've developed an admittedly corny solution to bad beats: I
tap the table and say "good catch" or something similar, the longer the odds
I was drawn out on the more enthusiastic my congratulations. The
acknowledgment itself brings the hand to an end for me and I can focus fully
on the next deal. Hope this helps. greg
R FOGARTY
KLJ Corp. wrote in message <271c2.802$we4.1...@newshog.newsread.com>...
>>Many players in and I have a pair of queens. Blind checks, UTG checks,
and
>>fifth seat bets the max ($5). My gut gives a wrench saying "He has the
>>flush". Sixth, seventh fold ... eighth calls. I have an argument with
>myself
>>saying something like "He may only have high pair or two pair, he could
>have
>>sneaked in with KK or something like that" So I'm beat in at least two
>>places. UTG KK or AA maybe. Seat 5 with a possible flush. I can still
>feel
>>that wrenching in my gut, but my mind decides to call anyway.
Yuck
>
>I have a question.. You have top pair with very best kicker. Why not
>RAISE? Calling here loses money either way. With a raise you make someone
>tell you you're beat. Hands like AA or KK cannot afford to play this flop
>slow. As it turns out, the eventual winner's hand (97h) demanded to be
>played fast here as well. (he can't afford to let another heart fall)
NOW
>if someone plays back, your head might be willing to agree with that
>intuitive gut of yours. This would have cost you a lot less than calling
>your way to the river.
>Kevin
>
I agree it's good to be agressive except that knowing the players is vital,
for example.. if the owner of the 97h was reraised on the flop he'd likely
shutdown then just call to the river for fear of being against a higher
flush - but not intending to dropout. or.. if he held the nut flush and was
reraised on the flop he'd likely slow play until a later street for more
money.... then beat your brains out.
Mike Norris Jr.
make you money because the over time as long as you are putting money into
the pot with the best of it you are making money even it isn't in front of
you at the end of the pot.
Mike Norris Jr.