Biggest cheat in poker
Jazzmus2
about cheating in very big games. But what about cheating today, and in
tournaments. Do you know who the biggest cheat in poker is? JHe is a very
famous and successful tournamnent player who gets lots of write ups in card
player and poker digest. Yes, he is very good but also has a very big edge
He stakes several players in a tournament, mostly his Vietnamise friends. Then
they cannot play against him. They must play him soft and must dump off chips
for him and even pass chips to himn on breaks. Once I played at Hollywood Park
when he was at my table. When we came back from a break I knew he had a lot
more chips from before. I complained to the tournament director but nothing
was done. Other players have told me they have seen the same thing. Ron
McMillan, who is a very highly respectible player, once caught him haveing
chips passed during a break at the World Series. He told Jack McClellan who
said he coudnt do any thing because he did not see it. Do you know this famous
player is barred at Foxwoods? He was cooking in his room. Security was sent
up and then they found tournament chips there. So he was barred. Why can't he
be be barred every where? He is also very, very nasty at the table.. TDhe
more beer he drinks the nastier he ends up. He likes to make taunts at
players. Even when he says NICE HAND SIR it sounds very nasty and sarcastic.
He gets into lots of fights with players, and even the tournament staff. Tom
McEvoy once gave him a penalty at Normandy Casino and this very famous player
threatened to have him killed!!! Why can't we do something about this cheat
because he is cheating you and me today at tournaments. Tournament people know
he is cheating. They dont care, they don't want to lose all his business and
the people he stakes. Can't we do something?
Michael O'Malley
You may have well just said his name, these stories aren't a secret or
anything.
The question is: Are they true?
I don't know for sure, but if they are it is the tournament directors job to
let the players know about it.
If he is indeed barred from Foxwoods, why is it all speculation? Why
doesn't management come out and say it?
If Tom was threatened with his life, why didn't he press charges?
Good stories...but who knows what is true.
--
Michael K. O'Malley
www.rzitup.com
"The guy who just showed up on RGP
to bash GCA...what a coincidence."
"Jazzmus2" <jazz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010608014102...@ng-cp1.aol.com...
Jim Geary
Jim Geary
jimgeary.com - something to bore everyone
Michael O'Malley
is comedy.
--
Michael K. O'Malley
www.rzitup.com
"The guy who just showed up on RGP
to bash GCA...what a coincidence."
"Jim Geary" <jay...@netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.SUN.3.95.10106...@unix3.netaxs.com...
Jazzmus2
They will confirm it.
lvdlrs
BTW if it is who I really think you're talking about, my wife, who
dealt to him at this year's World Poker Open and World Series
Of Poker, can't stand his baby antics. She's real good at putting
him on tilt too.
Gary (...) Philips
RazzO
razzo
lvdlrs wrote:
--
****************
POKERWORLD.COM
http://www.pokerworld.com
IS FOR SALE/LEASE
mailto:ra...@pokerworld.com
Gary Carson
>threatened to have him killed!!! Why can't we do something about
this cheat
>because he is cheating you and me today at tournaments.
Because people like you are cowards who are afraid to say the truth
and stand up for it.
Who is this guy? Who are you? You're a fucking coward. Tell it to
Mike Caro.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
Im TheCapo
worthwhile and you call them names and use profanity towards them.
And What does Mike Caro have to do with anything? You should join the gca,
you make about as much sense.
Todd Brunson
Gary Carson
He's afraid to name a player he claims to know is a cheat. He's
afraid to make his accusations openly, standing up for the truth by
using his own name.
Unless he's willing to do those two things he's not saying anything
worthwhile. Everyone's heard those stories, even me. But, nobody who
actually knows for sure seems to be willing to stand up and be
counted. This clown claims to know for sure but he's afriad to name
names, including his own name.
What Caro has to do with it is that Caro also is afraid to just say
what he knows, he wants these GCA clowns to say it for him.
If it's true that you hate me, then you're a very sad person. That's
a very strong emotion for someone who's never done any harm to you at
all. Very sad.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
Quang Le
1. Men stakes other players in a tournament. <<<This is normal and
legitimate practice.
2. These player soft played and passed chips to him. <<<This is the duty of
tournament directors. If they don't do anything then don't play in their
tournaments. Catching passing chips at break is easy with video camera. If
The Orleans barred Pat F with it. why can't othet can do it with MTM?
3. Foxwoods incident. <<< If I remember correctly I had read it in a
magazine or this newsgroup. He was cooking something smelly and security
was called. You now added tournament chip was found! Where did you get that
information? third hands, fourth hands, or nth hands.
4. Why can't be he barred everywhere? They did it in the past (before the
60's) but wake up, this is the 21st century.
5. His behavioral at the table. <<I was laughing out loud. How can "nice
hand sir" can be nasty? How he compared to Phil Helmuth? Should PH be barred
too. How many 20' penalties did he get recently? I can't recall.
6. Tom McEvoy incident << Did Normandy Casino bar him yet? Why didn't Tom
call security and lead him out in cuffs? or Men just said it as a joke to
his neighbors.
Can't we do something? << Join GCA. I admited that your post made GCA looks
pretty good. In all of your stories, only <2> is considered as cheating. And
you labeled him as the biggest cheat in poker. Tell us the truth how much
money did you lose to him? :-)
||
"Jazzmus2" <jazz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010608014102...@ng-cp1.aol.com...
RazzO
razzo
Quang Le wrote:
--
AlwaysAware
>Date: 6/8/01 1:41 AM Eastern Dayligh
> Tournament people know
>he is cheating. They dont care, they don't want to lose all his business and
>the people he stakes. Can't we do something?
Pretty new to poker, but I don't think this is the reason.. For the casino it
is not in their interest to prosecute as it was not a crime against the house.
Some rooms have barred people that they have caught cheating, but that is
probably as far as they will go, it gives some form of protection. A tournament
director is not going to barr a player on "hear say" even if it is first hand
here say. No evidence. No consequence.
As far as the Foxwood incident it was not a "baby" fire it was a major fire.
MTM was escorted to the state line and told not to come back. (Foxwoods will
confirm that he is banned from the casino, you will have to contact the state
police to inquire whether he is/was banned from the state)
Were chips found in his room, I don't know.. *If* there were, it would still be
an expensive road for the casino to prosecute as the room was shared.... who
brought the chips there? Who (allegedly) is/was cheating? The casino has no
interested in pursuing it (if indeed it is even true) as they have already
banned the fire blazers from the property, It is not Foxwoods responsibility
to protect poker players nationwide/world wide. It is their responsibility to
protect the safety of their guests which they did, by barring them from the
property.
Lamont Cranston
I didn't think she played poker!
Bjgkaraoke
to cook with? Barbara G.
A. Prock
>In summary
>1. Men stakes other players in a tournament. <<<This is normal and
>legitimate practice.
Leaving everything else aside, this may be normal, but
I don't think that it is a legitimate practice. It is
very questionable from an ethical standpoint, and doesn't
instill much confidence in the player. To stake the
same players who are your opposition smacks of cheating.
It is exactly this kind of behaviour which is "accepted"
which makes tournaments one of the last places I will
put my poker dollar. I wouldn't be surprised if this form
of "soft collusion" is rampant in the tournament circuit.
- Andrew
Mike Caro
wrote:
>I have heard all of these stories about Men "the Master" Nguyen many times.
>You may have well just said his name, these stories aren't a secret or
>anything.
>The question is: Are they true?
>I don't know for sure, but if they are it is the tournament directors job to
>let the players know about it.
>If he is indeed barred from Foxwoods, why is it all speculation? Why
>doesn't management come out and say it?
>If Tom was threatened with his life, why didn't he press charges?
>Good stories...but who knows what is true.
I was there. I saw and heard it. Men shouted, after being eliminated
from the tournament following a 20-minute penalty, (approximate
wording) that he was going to go out and get his gun and come back and
kill Tom. It was scary, but he probably had no intention of doing it.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Steve BIA
the top tourney players (not MTM) on the circuit. He said he had put 8
players into the tourney, which meant that, considering there were 87
entries, including himself he had over 10% of the field. I'm not saying
this is unethical or implies any collusion, but it certainly made me
uncomfortable. (He won the tourney, btw).
Steve N
"A. Prock" <jeffy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9fr131$f...@spool.cs.wisc.edu...
kingyao
much edge does that give the backer ? (not to mention possible edge in the
softplaying of one backee to another).
If the backer should expect a 5% return on his money if no one softplayed
him, how much should that increase given 10 out of 87 players softplaying
him?
Steve BIA <stev...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:mT7U6.360$107.1...@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips
It might be time to start drawing up some laws
about drinking beer at final tables....
Mike Caro
>If a player backs a lot of other players, and they softplay the backer, how
>much edge does that give the backer ? (not to mention possible edge in the
>softplaying of one backee to another).
>
>If the backer should expect a 5% return on his money if no one softplayed
>him, how much should that increase given 10 out of 87 players softplaying
>him?
kingyao --
Soft playing the backer may not give him any edge at all, if you
consider the cumulative money invested. What helps a team most is
keeping stacks relatively equal.
A three-member team with $9,000 is total chips and $8,000 in one stack
and $500 in each of the other two stacks is in substantially worse
shape money wise than if each stack were $3,000.
For that reason, the backing of players who throw off chips to you
when you already have a lot of them will usually cost you in terms of
expected profit, although it will increase your chances of winning the
tournament.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
M
businesses have guidelines set forth which participants are expected to
follow to avoid conflicts of interest and I think this would be a very good
idea for poker tournaments too. Specifically, staking someone to a
tournament who is going to be playing against you in the same tournament
would be a violation of this guideline. Of course such things are not going
to be 100% enforceable, and there will always be those who will disregard or
find ways to circumvent such policies, but if the tournaments set forth in
advance that this was the policy, I think we would see a lot less of such
things."M"
Steve BIA
"kingyao" <kin...@home.com> wrote in
> If a player backs a lot of other players, and they softplay the backer,
how
> much edge does that give the backer ? (not to mention possible edge in the
> softplaying of one backee to another).
>
> If the backer should expect a 5% return on his money if no one softplayed
> him, how much should that increase given 10 out of 87 players softplaying
> him?
Interesting question, but I don't automatically assume that there are any
agreements that the backed players softplay the backer. However, its
something I keep my eyes open for, as, I'm sure, do a number of other
players. I back players in tourneys sometimes, and I specifically do NOT
want someone I've backed softplaying me or anyone else. I want that player
to play to win, that's why I backed him.
Steve N
AJOHN227
>to cook with?
maybe he was woking his dog
JW Steve
wrote:
So at some point the guy you backed commits his whole stack. Now it is
your turn. You haven't committed much to the pot and you and they guy
you backed have relatively equal stacks. Are you seriously telling me
that the fact that backed the other guy does not even enter into your
mind on how to play the hand? Are you really going to commit your
stack knowing that one of you will double up and the other will be
out, knowing that as Mike pointed out that this decreases your overall
return for the tournament?
jw steve
John Harkness
>On Fri, 08 Jun 2001 17:36:07 GMT, "kingyao" <kin...@home.com> wrote:
>
>>If a player backs a lot of other players, and they softplay the backer, how
>>much edge does that give the backer ? (not to mention possible edge in the
>>softplaying of one backee to another).
Wasn't Chuck Humphrey near the chip lead at the WSOP final table when
his own horse, Randy Holland, busted him to almost nothing?
John Harkness
John Harkness
wrote:
>On Fri, 08 Jun 2001 18:09:12 GMT, "Steve BIA" <stev...@verizon.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Interesting question, but I don't automatically assume that there are any
>>agreements that the backed players softplay the backer. However, its
>>something I keep my eyes open for, as, I'm sure, do a number of other
>>players. I back players in tourneys sometimes, and I specifically do NOT
>>want someone I've backed softplaying me or anyone else. I want that player
>>to play to win, that's why I backed him.
>>
>>Steve N
>>
>>
>
>So at some point the guy you backed commits his whole stack. Now it is
>your turn. You haven't committed much to the pot and you and they guy
>you backed have relatively equal stacks. Are you seriously telling me
>that the fact that backed the other guy does not even enter into your
>mind on how to play the hand? Are you really going to commit your
>stack knowing that one of you will double up and the other will be
>out, knowing that as Mike pointed out that this decreases your overall
>return for the tournament?
>
>jw steve
You neglect to mention any number of other factors. How late in the
tournament is it, for example, and what do I have in my hand?
If it's a NL tournament and I've got AA, I call him. Otherwise, why go
all in in a coinflip situation? There's more money in winning the
tournament than there is in having a piece of someone who wins it.
John Harkness
M
"Mike Caro" <ca...@caro.com> wrote in message
news:sAkhO8E9WbO3u1...@4ax.com...
should be grounds for, at minimum, permanent exclusion from the premises. I
hope Tom took appropriate action AFTER the fact as well as at the time of
the incident. "M"
Steve BIA
"JW Steve" <jw_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> So at some point the guy you backed commits his whole stack. Now it is
> your turn. You haven't committed much to the pot and you and they guy
> you backed have relatively equal stacks. Are you seriously telling me
> that the fact that backed the other guy does not even enter into your
> mind on how to play the hand? Are you really going to commit your
> stack knowing that one of you will double up and the other will be
> out, knowing that as Mike pointed out that this decreases your overall
> return for the tournament?
I can only answer that question theoretically, since I've never been faced
with that situation. My feeling is that my number one interest is for ME to
win the tournament, and I'm going to play my hand in the best way possible
to reach that end. I have alot more to gain if I win, rather than if my
horse wins. Again, that's in theory, since when and if the time comes I'll
have to face the issue at that point. Suppose I muck my cards, my horse
loses the hand, and a stack of chips that I could have had in front of me
stays in front of a third player? I really don't think I'd have a dilemma,
and believe I would play my hand straight up.
Steve N
foldem
(Wayno) Phillips) wrote:
> It might be time to start drawing up some laws
> about drinking beer at final tables....
>
Look how PC we've become. Jeez.
The ADB's protest vehemently!
Of course you didn't mean to include Rumpleminz, Wild Turkey or JD in
your ban, right?
Best,
Peter
There are no strangers at BARGE.
Just friends you haven't met yet.
Bing
> Even when he says NICE HAND SIR it sounds very nasty and sarcastic.
That sounds like about every poker player I know.
-- Bing Monopoly Expansion Set
Visit us at http://www.paxentertainment.com
Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips
>On Fri, 08 Jun 2001 17:58:08 GMT, Larr...@charter.net (Larry W.
>(Wayno) Phillips) wrote:
>
>> It might be time to start drawing up some laws
>> about drinking beer at final tables....
>>
>
>Look how PC we've become. Jeez.
>
>The ADB's protest vehemently!
>
>Of course you didn't mean to include Rumpleminz, Wild Turkey or JD in
>your ban, right?
>
>Best,
>
>Peter
It was a joke.
No-- just banning beer in bottles wrapped in napkins.
Other stuff is.... HoKay
Bing
> I can't imagine that Mary Tyler Moore acts like that in real life.
Didn't you see that made-for-TV movie she was in a month
ago? She, apparently played a nasty old witch.
Oh wait, almost nobody saw it, according to the numbers.
Nevermind.
John Zwiers
> I have alot more to gain if I win, rather than if my
>horse wins
Say no more.
Zwierdo
P.S. As a practical matter one will never eliminate players staking other
players.
apryll
extremely successful tournament player. It makes you wonder whether
he is successful because of his talent at poker, or his alleged talent
at sneaking extra chips into his stack. I generally track the stacks
of players at my table. I guess I will start writing down stack counts
at breaks and checking them after the break. If someone sneaks chips
in during a table change, oh well, there is nothing I can personally
do about that.
From the cheat's perspective, it makes sense to put say 10 people into
the $200 buy in event and sneak out a couple of thousand in chips to
insert into the larger buy in event in an attempt to score a big
payday.
One solution would be to count down the stacks at every break and have
a recount when the break is over. Either that, or have tournament
personnel track stacks at random.
All of these cheating allegations have me seriously contemplating
quitting. I mean, I don't have to worry about getting cheated in the
"big game," but I play at levels of $20-40 to $50-$100 and in limited
circumstances, pot limit. I really enjoy tournament play, but I will
stop attending the major tournaments if I am not convinced they are on
the level.
I would very much appreciate any response from tournament directors
and/or casinos/card clubs about chip insertion in tournaments. I know
Mike Ward from Foxfoods has posted on this group in the past, so maybe
he can comment on MTM's alleged chip problem at Foxwoods. I for one
would patronize Foxwood's card room more often if it is true that they
actually banned someone forever for having tournament chips in their
possession. I would feel very comfortable playing in a card room with
that kind of integrity.
"M" <mmm...@excelonline.com> wrote in message news:<ti27gor...@corp.supernews.com>...
Mason Malmuth
team) are of equal skill. However, if one of the players on the team is a
superior tournament player, then it may well be worth it (from a team point of
view) to dump chips to this player even if he has the largest stack.
Mason
Mike Caro
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Mike Caro
has made an accurate statement here, but does he think I don't know
that? Is it important enough to post that "This may not be accurate,"
when we never hear from him in any other strategic ways and when he
has just sent me a snide, impolite e-mail on another topic.
That's what "no shit" means in this context.
Someone please tell Mason that his recent unfair, hostile, and
mean-spirited posts on 2 + 2 are greatly resented. But don't tell him
I read them.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Dave Scharf
Each put in $10,000. Structure to be agreed on by Mike and Mason. Winner
take all.
To make it fun, parcel yourselves off. I hereby offer up $1000 (yes, that's
$US) to be part of Team Caro. Play it at BARGE.
Regards,
Dave Scharf
Saskatoon, SK
"Mike Caro" <ca...@caro.com> wrote in message
news:e1ghO9U=mGLmpdXiD6...@4ax.com...
Mike Caro
<da...@canadianpoker.com> wrote:
>I propose a Mike Caro Mason Malmuth heads up match.
>
>Each put in $10,000. Structure to be agreed on by Mike and Mason. Winner
>take all.
>
>To make it fun, parcel yourselves off. I hereby offer up $1000 (yes, that's
>$US) to be part of Team Caro. Play it at BARGE.
>
>Regards,
>Dave Scharf
>Saskatoon, SK
Dave --
Interesting concept. But it isn't practical. How the hell is Mason
supposed to "parcel himself off"?
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
IbeaSearcher
think was eventually lifted. On the other hand I do not think it was the kind
of threat that would keep one up all night worring. I heard first hand Ron
McMillan's story of Men changing tables and ending up with more chips. Would
Ron go on the record with what he said? Maybe someone should ask Ron to retell
his story.
The Foxwoods incident has been told to me several times. it always included the
finding of tournament chips in the room Logically it would seem to make more
sense to barr someone from a state for perceived cheating than for only
starting a fire. i know it is not a small thing to start a fire in a hotel
room but it just seems to me if that if it was the only thing someone was
guilty of it would not have warranted an escort out of the state. Is there
some way to get. the record of why Men was barred from the state. Who could
find out? .
Donald M
> Staking someone in a
> tournament who is going to be playing against you in the same tournament
> to be 100% enforceable.
100% enforceable? How could such a thing even be 2% enforceable?
AlwaysAware
> i know it is not a small thing to start a fire in a hotel
>room but it just seems to me if that if it was the only thing someone was
>guilty of it would not have warranted an escort out of the state. Is there
>some way to get. the record of why Men was barred from the state. Who could
>find out? .
*If* he had tournament chips in the room, *AND* Foxwoods is not pressing
charges do you really think that he is gonna get escorted to the state line for
that? This fire was NOT an 'oh quick get the fire extinguisher' fire.. And I
don't remember who escorted him to the state line, if you are that interested
start by calling the fire marshall. But you are wasting your time (IMO)
whether or not he had chips is a seperate issue.
Gary Carson
down.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
Mason Malmuth
not a trivial oversight given the subject of this thread. An excellent tournament
player was accused of staking others in hopes of getting the chips sluffed off to
him. You (Mike Caro) made a post pointing out the theoretical advantage of keeping
stacks even. But that implied that the strategy of sluffing off to the best player
was wrong. I agree that their strategy of sluffing off to him could easily be for the
wrong reasons, but it was still probably right.
This can be best shown in the following example. Suppose in a $1,000 buy-in
tournament you have the opportunity to stake a rank beginner who will be at the same
starting table as you with the instruction to immediately dump all his chips to you.
Is this a mathematically good play? Both Mike and I have written that every
succeeding chip you win is worth a little less than the previous one. In the scenario
just presented you have in essence paid a double buy-in for twice the chips, and the
second buy-in was worth less than the first one. This might make it appear like the
strategy was wrong, but if you are much better than most of the opponents in the
tournament it is not wrong at all. It is true that you have not doubled your
expectation. But let's say with a thousand in chips your original expectation is
$1800; and with two thousand in chips it is $3300. That means your second thousand
(neglecting any entries fees) made you $500 more. I doubt that the fellow in
question, ASSUMING (and I have no evidence either way) that he is guilty, thought
precisely along these lines. But again he might have done the "right" thing for the
wrong reasons. Plus when you include the fact that many tournaments have an all
around prize it becomes clear cut that the strategy of one excellent player staking
others with the intention of having them dump off chips to him is the best strategy
as opposed to keeping stakes equal.
Mike Caro wrote:
> And before anyone misinterprets my words, they mean: Obviously Mason
> has made an accurate statement here, but does he think I don't know
> that?
> >On Fri, 08 Jun 2001 15:42:48 -0700, Mason Malmuth
M
due to people reporting violations. The point is that it would discourage
many who might be considering such arrangements from initiating such
arrangements in the first place. Most players, I believe, would respect this
if it were a known tournament policy/rule."M"
"Donald M" <don__...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10fbfb75.01060...@posting.google.com...
Mason Malmuth
> when he has just sent me a snide, impolite e-mail on another topic.
This is the email I sent him:
>To: Mike Caro <ca...@caro.com>
>Subject: Re: Biggest cheat in poker
>Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 15:32:58 -0700
>Gee Mike, what about the time you threatened to kill me? Did you really mean it
>or were you like Men.
>Mason
This was his reply:
>From: "Mike Caro" <ca...@caro.com>
>To: "'Mason Malmuth'" <masonm...@twoplustwo.com>
>Subject: RE: Biggest cheat in poker
>Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 15:56:15 -0700
>Mason -
>I never denied the incident. What I meant by "you'll be lucky to be alive in 24
hours" is, >I suppose, a matter of interpretation. But in light of your behavior at
the time, it was >probably the best you could have expected.
>Needless to say, I regret the incident.
>- Mike
This was my reply:
>Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 15:53:08 -0700
>From: Mason Malmuth <masonm...@twoplustwo.com>
>To: Mike Caro <ca...@caro.com>
>Subject: Re: Biggest cheat in poker
>You did deny it, and the only thing I did to cause it was to refuse to talk to you.
As I >told you (by fax) six weeks ago you need to make your appologies public.
>Mason
By the way, he has apparently changed his tune about me again because here is an
unsolicited email that he sent me on April 15, 2001 (when there was major criticism
about his involvement with the cheating interviews).
>From: "Mike Caro" <ca...@caro.com>
>To: <masonm...@twoplustwo.com>
>Subject: poker cheating interview
>Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:04:34 -0700
>Mason --
>I continue to respect you, your contributions to poker, and your integrity as a
player. I >wish we were still friends.
>Time sometimes gives us different perspectives on things, and in retrospect I'm
sorry I >reacted so strongly to your actions in the past. In light of our previous
relationship, I >really didn't understand why you chose to challenge some of my
writings in the public >way you did, and I still don't agree with you, but I believe
you were sincere. My >mistake was in making a big issue of it and counter-attacking.
I apologize for this.
>I think we should have been natural allies. Our temperaments differ, that's for
sure. My >guess is that you're uncomfortable with the hype and the fanfare that
accompany my >public image, but you also know -- perhaps more than most -- that this
is only one way >in which I conduct my life. Most of the time, when dealing with
business and poker >away from the tables and away from seminars, I am pretty staid
and stable and I >approach things pretty much the same way you do.
>I wanted to tell you that in all the discussions I have had about cheating, not one
single >suspicion has ever been raised about your integrity. Because there are so
many >suspicions about so many well-known people, many of them completely unfounded
in >my mind, it is remarkable that everyone agrees that you are beyond reproach.
>You should know that the doors here are open to you. If you later decide you would
>like to be involved in knowing what is being alleged and judge for yourself whether
any >of it is reliable, I would recommend that my "people" talk to you. I don't know
if they >will. I am very uncomfortable about this whole thing, because I'm not sure I
can trust all >the people I'm close to. There have been allegations about some people
you know, >too, which may be unfounded, so it might also make you feel uncomfortable
even >hearing their allegations. I would appreciate it very much if you would keep
this >communication private.
>This matter is much too important to let our personal differences interfere. I
personally >would also like to repair all the bridges between us with the
understanding that we don't >necessarily have to agree on everything in the future.
Your criticism of my work is >perfectly acceptable to me now or in the future. But
there remains a lot of common >ground we share, even if our past differences make
that hard to see.
>-- Mike
Bill T
"Mason Malmuth" <masonm...@twoplustwo.com> wrote in message
news:3B2170B3...@twoplustwo.com...
<<<<SH---NIP>>>
So, which one of you has custody of the kids?
foldem
<masonm...@twoplustwo.com> wrote:
That Mike Caro wrote:
> I would appreciate it very much if you would keep
>this >communication private.
I don't always agree with Gary C and Mike C when they attack you, but
this is just a flagrant disregard for the feelings and wishes of
another.
What part of "keep ... private" did you not understand?
Go back into the hole of your web site and stay there.
Peter Secor
Gary Carson
>in >my mind, it is remarkable that everyone agrees that you are
beyond reproach.
Everyone doesn't agree.
I don't think Malmuth cheats at cards.
But, I do think he cheats in his business life. I have been the
victim of his attempt to use his market power in the poker press to
harm me and my ability to sell my work. He did that purposefully and
for vindictive reasons. Such behavior isn't just immoral, it's
illegal. He's a slimebag and a crook.
Mike Caro knows that, he's claims to have been a victim of similar
behavior by Malmuth.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
AlwaysAware
Who posted a private email to a usenet group:
> I would appreciate it very much if you would keep
>this >communication private.
nuf said
Joan
Steve BIA
which is federally protected land. What State is he going to be barred
from?
Steve N
"IbeaSearcher" <ibease...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010608192133...@ng-cn1.aol.com...
Mike Caro
I have told lots of people that I tried to e-mail you as a courtesy
and to use diplomacy (which is what that is by the way, in case you
didn't recognize it), because we may have had something in common --
honest poker.
I invited you (having gotten special permission) to interview my
sources and judge for yourself whether they are credible or not.
I have never published e-mail that you sent me.
You apparently believe my e-mail does me discredit. But that's because
you have a very distorted notion of what people of integrity respect.
I'm sure somebody will straighten you out.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Mike Caro
thanks."
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Mike Caro
you.
m...@acm.org
> I would appreciate it very much if you would keep
> this communication private.
Bzzt. Your out of line Mason. You've just lost a large chunk of
credibility. Realize that the GCA boys havn't even stooped this low.
mph
lvdlrs
represents? The only thing I can see worthy is that he plays
poker honestly. But does anybody even know that for sure?
After all he is a business associate of two accused ex cheats.
Go away Mason. If anybody here wants to read your drivel
they know where to go, you've spammed it enough times.
Gary (...) Philips
PegSmithNow
>Does anybody here like even a smidgen of what this guy
>represents?...
I knew absolutely nothing about the man until he posted that e-mail from Caro.
(You all know the one -- the one that Caro expressly asked him to keep
confidential? Yeah, that one.) That's all I need to know about Mason Malmuth,
and all I'll ever want to know.
Peg
Barry Shulman
would abide by them and the "bad" people would be the ones to ignore the
policy.
Unenforceable policy makes for disdain for all of the other rules too.
Barry Shulman
"M" <mmm...@excelonline.com> wrote in message
news:ti2s6io...@corp.supernews.com...
Diane from Green Bay
> And before anyone misinterprets my words, they mean: Obviously Mason
> has made an accurate statement here, but does he think I don't know
> that? Is it important enough to post that "This may not be accurate,"
> when we never hear from him in any other strategic ways and when he
> has just sent me a snide, impolite e-mail on another topic.
>
> That's what "no shit" means in this context.
>
> Someone please tell Mason that his recent unfair, hostile, and
> mean-spirited posts on 2 + 2 are greatly resented. But don't tell him
> I read them.
>
> Straight Flushes,
> Mike Caro
>
Mike,
I loved this entire response. Big hug coming next time I see you.
Diane from Green Bay
Dave Scharf
See CARO v MALMUTH
"Mike Caro" <ca...@caro.com> wrote in message
news:wF0hO=82zqnE1NS48...@4ax.com...
Ray Houle
justified. A lot of characters are rude here and who cares. But you
and Mason? I respect the both of you and I hate to see it. -ray
JW Steve
wrote:
<snip>
>You neglect to mention any number of other factors. How late in the
>tournament is it, for example, and what do I have in my hand?
>
>If it's a NL tournament and I've got AA, I call him. Otherwise, why go
>all in in a coinflip situation? There's more money in winning the
>tournament than there is in having a piece of someone who wins it.
>
>John Harkness
I neglected it because I figured you could come up with a scenario on
your own. I didn't say it had to be pre-flop, be creative. The point
was simply that it must affect game play. Now if you only ever have a
couple percent of each person fine, then maybe it doesn't, but is that
what the practice is limited to? Aren't there situations where people
have a substantial stake in others that they are playing against? I
fail to see how this does not alter the way the game is played. If you
have a ton of chips and you are close to the cut-off are you going to
make your short-stacked horse showdown if everyone folds to you or are
you going to fold so he will make the money?
jw steve
Mason Malmuth
So a couple of days later I sent you a fax. All that it said was to put your appology on
the Internet, no strings attached.
Mason
breastman
> MASON --
>
> I invited you to interview my
> sources and judge for yourself whether they are credible or not.
>
>
Yeah Mason, you really blew it! You had your chance to share the
limelight with Caro on this one, but now it's all his and his alone.
You must be experiencing some HEAVY-DUTY regret. Eat your heart out
you fool! LOL
Mike Caro
Apparently you don't get it. That was me reaching out and offering you
a chance to join forces to perhaps do something good. It was a
confidential message that presented you with an opportunity to
evaluate for yourself whether you thought the sources were credible.
In reaching out to you, I was giving you a face-saving opportunity, in
light of what has transpired from your end in the past, nothing more.
You know damn well what you've done to me, and many others will
testify to it.
I was diplomatically saying that perhaps I overreacted and maybe we
could bring the hostilities to a close. My wife was upset that I wrote
to you in a conciliatory way once again, because my past efforts have
ended unfavorably.
If you want to get this all out on the table, just say the word. I
will provide facts, recollections, and observations. All it takes is
for you to post two words:
"Go ahead."
Then I will state my case and, if you want, you can state yours.
But I've got to tell you, I won't leave anything out, INCLUDING what
led up to the "incident" you keep misrepresenting where I said (and
have always acknowledged saying), "You might not be alive in 24
hours." Remember, that was another one where you were trying to
embarrass me in front of business associates, loudly demanding a
retraction for something I wrote about you that was NICE! I'll have
someone look it up and quote it here, if you'd like. You demanded I
write a retraction in 24 hours, and I responded, shouting and out of
control, the now infamous words. You pushed me to the limit. I regret
the episode, but a reasonable man in your situation would have
apologized right then. You were the perpetrator. I'll give all the
details if you ask me to.
It's like this, Mason. I don't dislike anyone. You have cost me and my
wife dearly with your malicious behind-the-scenes misrepresentations.
I don't know why you've done this, but you can end this right now and
there will be peace and I will support and praise you (as I always do
when speaking publicly at my seminars, by the way) or let's get it on.
Two words, Mason. "Go ahead." That's all you need to say.
I'm sort of hoping you won't, because I think it would be bad for
poker and bad for business. But, if you want to continue, God have
mercy on your soul. You have my word on it.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Woodie Johnson
>Date: 6/9/01 3:17 AM Eastern
>If you want to get this all out on the table, just say the word.
For what purpose?
Don't lower yourselves, please.
The taste for gambling is a kind of feeble-mindedness--
maybe even an insanity - It is the silliest of all the vices.
Henry Louis Mencken (1880-1956)
Mike Caro
wrote:
breastman_dd --
I chuckled, but just to set the record straight, I did not ask him to
participate, only to judge for himself. He would not have been dragged
into any public limelight unless he chose the course for himself --
which would be unlikely.
By the way, I didn't do the interview, and I have publicly expressed
disapproval of many of the "revelations."
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Mason Malmuth
My position has been to have as little to do with you as possible. This has been my position
for many, many years. I did not appreciate you trying to get me involved in this dubious
project. It might have been okay if you wanted to include me from day one, but you didn't
contact me until you were getting tremendous pressure from all sides to abandon it. Phyllis
was correct, you should have never contacted me (at that late date).
As far as airing our differences, I have no problem with that as long as all facts presented
are accurate.
Best wishes,
Mason
Gary Carson
Jello wrestling.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
Gary Carson
password, Mason. Does that mean you're afraid of the truth?
Do you have a favorite jello color?
Maybe we could hold this in Baton Rouge and get Jimmy Swaggert to
emcee it.
On Sat, 09 Jun 2001 00:53:05 -0700, Mason Malmuth
<masonm...@twoplustwo.com> wrote:
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
Mike Caro
<masonm...@twoplustwo.com> wrote:
>Mike:
>
>My position has been to have as little to do with you as possible. This has been my position
>for many, many years. I did not appreciate you trying to get me involved in this dubious
>project. It might have been okay if you wanted to include me from day one, but you didn't
>contact me until you were getting tremendous pressure from all sides to abandon it. Phyllis
>was correct, you should have never contacted me (at that late date).
>
>As far as airing our differences, I have no problem with that as long as all facts presented
>are accurate.
>
>Best wishes,
>Mason
Mason --
I don't know what you mean by "trying to get me involved in this
dubious project." You posted on 2 + 2 that you didn't have the facts
and were reserving judgment. This was NOT late in the game, it was
early. Your statement doesn't ring true to me.
Maybe you sincerely misunderstood my e-mail. I don't know. But now
that you've publicly posted it, I guess others can judge for
themselves.
I always try to be accurate in my recollections. I wish you would do
that, also.
Best wishes,
Mike
mississippi slim
> On Fri, 08 Jun 2001 17:36:07 GMT, "kingyao" <kin...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >If a player backs a lot of other players, and they softplay the backer, how
> >much edge does that give the backer ? (not to mention possible edge in the
> >softplaying of one backee to another).
> >
> >If the backer should expect a 5% return on his money if no one softplayed
> >him, how much should that increase given 10 out of 87 players softplaying
> >him?
>
> kingyao --
>
> Soft playing the backer may not give him any edge at all, if you
> consider the cumulative money invested. What helps a team most is
> keeping stacks relatively equal.
>
> A three-member team with $9,000 is total chips and $8,000 in one stack
> and $500 in each of the other two stacks is in substantially wor
> shape money wise t
han if each stack were $3,000.
>
> For that reason, the backing of players who throw off chips to you
> when you already have a lot of them will usually cost you in terms of
> expected profit, although it will increase your chances of winning the
> tournament.
>
> Straight Flushes,
> Mike Caro
YA MIKE!!
and furthermore,whats with you wussies, so afraid of the competition
just play your best game. you'll beat em.
Mike Caro
Carson) wrote:
>To hell with these heads up poker challanges. That's for children.
>Jello wrestling.
>
>Gary Carson
>http://www.garycarson.com
Deal me in.
Mike Caro
from all sides to abandon it." He is a man of tremendous integrity,
and I will always appreciate his courage.
You do realize the interview didn't happen, right?
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
On Sat, 09 Jun 2001 00:53:05 -0700, Mason Malmuth
ed blair
>Mike:
This seems a little personal to be posted in here.
Why not take it to email and leave us out of the playground quarrel, huh?
------------------------------------------------------------
Get your FREE web-based e-mail and newsgroup access at:
http://MailAndNews.com
Create a new mailbox, or access your existing IMAP4 or
POP3 mailbox from anywhere with just a web browser.
------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Caro
wrote:
>>===== Original Message From Mason Malmuth <masonm...@twoplustwo.com> =====
>>Mike:
>
>
>This seems a little personal to be posted in here.
>Why not take it to email and leave us out of the playground quarrel, huh?
Ed --
Don't you dare talk to me that way. You may think you're being cute,
but I resent it.
It's not a feud. It's not personal. It's not a war. It's Mason
Malmuth.
I didn't start it, and I've tried over and over to end it. This is not
for the playground, Ed. This is a real-life tragedy and someone's got
to stop this man. Maybe David Sklansky has the balls to do it. I
respect him greatly.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
DaVoice
poker-related emcee'ing I did was at MARGE where you were the speaker...are
you blaming ME?
RC
"Gary Carson" <garyc...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3b21d79d....@news.mindspring.com...
ed blair
>>This seems a little personal to be posted in here.
>>Why not take it to email and leave us out of the playground quarrel, huh?
Mike said:
>Don't you dare talk to me that way. You may think you're being cute,
>but I resent it.
You resent me trivializing your situation?
>It's not a feud. It's not personal. It's not a war. It's Mason
>Malmuth.
You know him, I don't.
>I didn't start it, and I've tried over and over to end it.
Started it or not, ythis is no way for "professionals" to act.
For someone to bring themselves to anothers level for "the sake of the
truth"
is not a good thing for others to see.
> This is not
>for the playground, Ed. This is a real-life tragedy and someone's got
>to stop this man.
Well, then let's just kill the fukker!
Gary Carson
wrote:
Mason Malmuth is a professional slimeball. This is appropriate
behavior for him and it's approprate for others to treat him this way.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
Gary Carson
We'll just make a regular ole southern pageant out of this one. Maybe
we can close the whole thing off with fried chicken and a lynching of
Malmuth.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
ed blair
>On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 04:58:47 -0400, ed blair <Bus...@MailAndNews.com>
>wrote:
>>Started it or not, ythis is no way for "professionals" to act.
>
>Mason Malmuth is a professional slimeball.
Well, Gary, I think I was referring to Mr. Caro.
If you read further in my post, you'll notice I
mentioned him lowering himself to anothers level.
>This is appropriate
>behavior for him and it's approprate for others to treat him this way.
It is never appropriate for someone to act as someone else does, just
because
they do. All it does is put you in the same catagory.
From all I've read, I think Mr. Caro is a professional, and therefore
believe it might be sensible to not air this on the ng.
Sorry if you misinterpreted my post.
I'll try to be clearer in the future.
PegSmithNow
>Well, then let's just kill the fukker!
I'll start frying chicken.
Peg
lvdlrs
Best wishes,
Mike
This was after...
Mason Malamute wrote:
Best wishes,
Mason
I can just imagine what "Best wishes" really means. Maybe
something like, "Nice hand, sir."?
Gary (just say what you really mean guys) Philips
lvdlrs
ed blair wrote:
This seems a little personal to be posted in here. Why not take
it to email and leave us out of the playground quarrel, huh?
Because the email, at least on one side, will end up here anyway.
Gary (...) Philips
M
If this suggestion were implemented, it is true that there would not
be much change in the behavior of a few players, but most players would
respect it and we would therefore have fewer well-intentioned players
finding themselves in a hi-tension conflict-of-interest situation at a key
point in a tournament.
I now recall reading a suggestion in a column, perhaps in Card Player
magazine, that all tournament participants be required to list the names and
percentages of anyone holding a piece of them in the tournament (I do not
recall who suggested this). This would also seem to be unenforceable and
therefore undesirable under the same objections.
I am not convinced fully of either viewpoint regarding these matters,
but there may something along these lines worthy of further exploration. "M"
"Barry Shulman" <ba...@shulmans.com> wrote in message
news:ti34443...@corp.supernews.com...
> The problem with unenforceable rules is that the legitimate, honest
players
> would abide by them and the "bad" people would be the ones to ignore the
> policy.
>
> Unenforceable policy makes for disdain for all of the other rules too.
>
> Barry Shulman
>
>
>
>
> "M" <mmm...@excelonline.com> wrote in message
> news:ti2s6io...@corp.supernews.com...
> > That's not the point, even though it probably would be over 2%
enforceable
> > due to people reporting violations. The point is that it would
discourage
> > many who might be considering such arrangements from initiating such
> > arrangements in the first place. Most players, I believe, would respect
> this
> > if it were a known tournament policy/rule."M"
> > "Donald M" <don__...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:10fbfb75.01060...@posting.google.com...
> > > "M"
> > > > Staking someone in a
> > > > tournament who is going to be playing against you in the same
> tournament
> > > > would be a violation. Of course such things are not going
> > > > to be 100% enforceable.
> > >
> > > 100% enforceable? How could such a thing even be 2% enforceable?
> >
> >
>
>
Im TheCapo
Barry Shulman
to be posted in here.
> Why not take it to email and leave us out of the playground quarrel, huh?
OK guys, now we are getting back to the rgp we know and love/hate. It's
kinda like an internal family squabble. We are back to Gary and Mason
picking apart things with the precision of trial lawyers, Mike trying to be
diplomatic until he can't take it any longer, new folks concerned about the
bickering, and old folks wondering if this is the time to say something
profound or perhaps time for a wisecrack.
Personally, I welcome it. It feels like coming home after so much wasted
energy from and about CGA.
However, maybe it is because it has been a while, but I wonder if the CGA
guys have created an environment where we are becoming even less civil
towards each other even when we strongly disagree?
Also Mike, it appears you have been up 6 days too. You are such a good guy
and normally so mild mannered. These CGA guys have taken their toll on you.
Many do not recognize that you feared this disaster would happen without
your interviewing. You are totally stressed about these guys. Perhaps you
goofed jumping in the pigpen with them even if your motives were to harness
them.
Regardless, even you can't control these guys. As a friend I say it is time
to get some sleep, relax, and totally disassociate yourself from them.
Barry Shulman
timmer
> On Fri, 08 Jun 2001 06:00:50 GMT, "Michael O'Malley" <rzi...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I have heard all of these stories about Men "the Master" Nguyen many times.
> >You may have well just said his name, these stories aren't a secret or
> >anything.
> >The question is: Are they true?
> >I don't know for sure, but if they are it is the tournament directors job to
> >let the players know about it.
> >If he is indeed barred from Foxwoods, why is it all speculation? Why
> >doesn't management come out and say it?
> >If Tom was threatened with his life, why didn't he press charges?
> >Good stories...but who knows what is true.
>
> I was there. I saw and heard it. Men shouted, after being eliminated
> from the tournament following a 20-minute penalty, (approximate
> wording) that he was going to go out and get his gun and come back and
> kill Tom. It was scary, but he probably had no intention of doing it.
>
> Straight Flushes,
> Mike Caro
geez what poor sportsmanship. I hope security was alerted . And Men appologized
voluntarily and publicly. Death threats should never be taken lying down. Ever.
timmer
Bad Bob the albino
wrote:
>I said:
>
>>>This seems a little personal to be posted in here.
>>>Why not take it to email and leave us out of the playground quarrel, huh?
>
>Mike said:
>>Don't you dare talk to me that way. You may think you're being cute,
>>but I resent it.
>
>You resent me trivializing your situation?
>
>>It's not a feud. It's not personal. It's not a war. It's Mason
>>Malmuth.
>
>You know him, I don't.
>
>>I didn't start it, and I've tried over and over to end it.
>
>Started it or not, ythis is no way for "professionals" to act.
>For someone to bring themselves to anothers level for "the sake of the
>truth"
>is not a good thing for others to see.
>
>> This is not
>>for the playground, Ed. This is a real-life tragedy and someone's got
>>to stop this man.
>
>Well, then let's just kill the fukker!
>
ROTFLMAO..................hahahahahahaahaahaahaaaahahaahaahaahaaaha!
Bad Bob the Albino
"Cook him till he's blue & smother him in onions."
Mike Caro
Gary --
Hers's what I really mean by "best wishes."
I hope Mason Malmuth has a wonderful life and that he mellows and
reflects as he matures. I hope he knows that I have always, when asked
in public, spoken of his books in a most professional respectful,
professional, and appropriate way -- even though I have serious
reservations about some of the things he says, as he seems to about
some of the things I say.
I hope he will come to realize that most of those people that he
attacks and criticizes are welcome creatures on this earth and that
they should be appreciated for whatever they have to offer.
And I still hope that some day we will be able to sit down in a
rocking chair on a veranda overlooking a lake with deer drinking from
the nearby cove and he will shake his head half-bemused ,
Bob-Dole-Pepsi-commercial fashion and ponder, "I wonder what that was
all about back then, Mike?"
And I want all people to be able to hug him and mean it.
That's what "best wishes" means to me.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Mike Caro
wrote:
>>===== Original Message From garyc...@mindspring.com (Gary Carson) =====
>>On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 04:58:47 -0400, ed blair <Bus...@MailAndNews.com>
>>wrote:
>>>Started it or not, ythis is no way for "professionals" to act.
>>
>>Mason Malmuth is a professional slimeball.
>
>Well, Gary, I think I was referring to Mr. Caro.
>If you read further in my post, you'll notice I
>mentioned him lowering himself to anothers level.
>
>>This is appropriate
>>behavior for him and it's approprate for others to treat him this way.
>
>It is never appropriate for someone to act as someone else does, just
>because
>they do. All it does is put you in the same catagory.
>
>From all I've read, I think Mr. Caro is a professional, and therefore
>believe it might be sensible to not air this on the ng.
>
>Sorry if you misinterpreted my post.
>I'll try to be clearer in the future.
Ed --
On reflection, you're probably right. I should have said absolutely
nothing about this.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Mike Caro
Barry --
Actually, I was well-rested when I posted, but your viewpoint is
appreciated.
On reflection, I should not have commented at all.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Ed Hill 777
and leave us out of the playground quarrel, huh?>>>
There is more to this than meets the eye. Mike Caro has been on Mason's ever
growing "hate list" for a long time. Once you make the list, he will attack you
behind your back forever, IT WILL NEVER STOP!
I was a close friend of Mason's for 10 years. I knew of the vendetta that he
had against Caro. I saw some of the things that he maliciously tried to do to
discredit Caro. And unlike the GCA this happens to be first hand information.
Mike is a good guy trying to do the right thing. I can't say the same for
Mason. People are people. I have warned Mike for the past few years to stay
away from any dealings with Mason. That Mason will try to use anything that
Mike's says to discredit him. Maybe Mike wishes he listened to me now?
I can tell first hand many Mason stories to support Mike's claim. I just don't
see the sense in it. Mason has said terrible things about me behind my back.
How did I go from friend to making the hate list? We didn't agree on how Poker
World Magazine should be run. So in other words, if you don't agree with me on
a business decision, I will hate you forever. So be it, I'll live.
Mason has also told a complete lie to a 30 year friend of mine, trying to put a
rift in our friendship. My friend did call me up laughing stating, "listen to
what these idiot said about you."
It doesn't matter that people don't believe it. His intent is crystal clear.
If this continues Mike can count on my absolute support. I have a lot of
stories and they will all appear right here. The reason you are not seeing them
right now is a matter of class. Maybe Mason can learn from this.
Mason, go ahead!
Ed Hill 777
friction between Caro and Malmuth.
Jim Geary
> There is more to this than meets the eye. Mike Caro has been on Mason's ever
> growing "hate list" for a long time. Once you make the list, he will attack you
> behind your back forever, IT WILL NEVER STOP!
Your name came up once in conversation with Mason. He was quite
complementary and said he used to enjoy discussing poker strategy with
you.
Jim Geary
jimgeary.com - something to bore everyone
Bad Bob the albino
<<<<<CUT THE LOVEY DOVEY HIPPIE SHIT>>>>>>>
>And I want all people to be able to hug him and mean it.
>
>That's what "best wishes" means to me.
>
>Straight Flushes,
>Mike Caro
Well Mikey just remember after you drink too much of that deer, and
start chewing some tobbacy......"don't spit on the steps".
Jim Geary
> complementary and said he used to enjoy discussing poker strategy with
In my defense, I actually changed the spelling an odd number of times,
plus it's about 117 degrees here.
Dark Giant
Dark Giant
"Ed Hill 777" > If this continues Mike can count on my absolute support. I
Mason Malmuth
I'm sorry you feel this way. Hopefully upon further reflection you'll see things in
a different light.
Mason