Check-Raising Draws on the Flop
Peter Phung
check-raising flush draws or open-ended straight draws on the flop in early
position and then betting out regardless of whether they make it or not. Is
there any advantage or logic to this? I cant see one and I assume this is a
bad play.. but I might be missing something.
Peter
Foxply
will get a free look at the turn and therefore the river.
By putting 2 bets in on the flop when the round is cheap.... a lot of the
times it means they dont have to call one bet when the bets double on 4th
street.
ie...FLOP: check---bet---raise---call
TURN: check-check/bet
With reference to betting out whether they make it or not... they can use
that as a deception ploy to deviate you from thinking they have the
draw.... and secondly to portray an image of definite strength to try and
buy the pot.
then if the draw hits you are less likely to assume they have the draw
because they lead out... and if they miss the draw the opponent is likely
to put the opponent on a big hand because it has been bet out all the way.
by checking the turn after you, they are essentially announcing to the
table they have naught but a draw, and if the river card comes to make the
draw, they in most liklihood wont get paid (if they are playing against
any good players)
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Tony Robinson
straight draws and the nut flush draw in late position....gets more money
in the pot and can usually get you a free card.
Tony
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John Forsberg
often a value-raise.
It's one of my routine tricky plays when playing short-handed.
John Forsberg
> It's one of my routine tricky plays when playing short-handed.
I use this primarily against opponents against which you're
value-betting an ace-high flush draw, or as a way to mix up my strong
check-raises against aggressive but at least somewhat perceptive opponents.
A variation is to call with the draw on the flop and then check-raise
the turn no matter what. This does require a pretty over-agressive
opponent who likes to fold when he thinks he's beat.
Jenna Tellya
On Oct 17 2004 6:08PM, Peter Phung wrote:
_________________________________________________________________
Tom Weideman
"Tony Robinson" <anon...@aol.com> wrote:
> Not like I'm an expert or anything, but I would only checkraise open ended
> straight draws and the nut flush draw in late position....gets more money
> in the pot and can usually get you a free card.
>
> Tony
Heh. Are you ever surprised when your check closes the action for that
round?
Tom Weideman
Coach
hand. Here's why:
Your odds of your 4 flush hitting with two cards to come and odds of your
open ended straight draw hitting with 2 cards to come are pretty close,
both around 2:1 against.
If you're in early position, you can check the 4 flush/4 straight. If one
player bets and most everyone folds, except maybe one player, you can just
call, as you're getting the correct pot odds, but not great pot odds and
don't want to run folks off just yet.
On the other hand, if the player to your left bets and you have 3+
callers, then your check raise is a value bet. You're 2:1 against..if 3+
players call your check-raise, thats wonderful. If anyone folds it's dead
money in the pot, and if miracle of miracles everyone folds, then you win
right there.
It's not correct to check raise every time. Check in early position and
keep your options open as far as the check raise, depending on the actions
of your opponents.
One time you DO NOT want to check raise with your 4 flush. If you check
in early position as we've talked about above and everyone checks up to
the person on your right and he bets, then a check raise is a huge
mistake. The rest of the table has to call 2 bets cold, and you'll
probably run most of them, if not all of them off. Stupid play if you're
on a draw hand.
Again, check raise is a nice play if you're quite sure you're drawing to
the best hand and you can check raise 3+ players. Check-Calling is
preferable if you're getting barely correct pot odds or if your check
raise would run so many players off that you wouldn't get correct pot odds
to call on the turn if you still have that "4 to it" hand.
Finally, betting out if your draw misses on the river isn't horrible
either, especially if it's heads up on the river. At this point there is
enough money in the pot that your river bluff only has to work a few times
to show profit on the play. If you check your busted draw, you lose the
entire pot. If you bet out and get called you only lose one more bet. If
you bet out and the other player folds you've won a good pot.
Granted you can't do this every single time you have a busted draw or
players will quickly figure you out. But using it in concert with the
flop check raise might be just enough aggressiveness to win the bluff on
the river.
Coach
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Real Big Fish
callers already in for 1 bet, the checkraise can be mathematically
worthwile using the assumption all callers will put in the second bet. If
there's a bet and 3 callers, you can raise with your flush draw all of a
sudden and be getting the right price, especially since implied odds
increase with the pot odds.
Also, it adds deception; the draw hits, you think their leading out might
be one of those "find out where you're at" bets since he nominally
represented made strength, but if he gets raised he has the made draw and
can reraise to get more value for it. The draw misses, he's represented a
decent made hand and he knows the draw hasn't hit. If his checkraise
wasn't reraised, he'll also feel that keeping that momentum with a
bluffing bet can be profitable. However, when the bet is made as a bluff,
it may not be profitable due to the pot size created by his prior
check-raise. When he does hit, leading out after the check-raise may allow
him to get more money in the pot if there's someone very aggressive in the
pot who raises on the "scare card", yet he can also pick up the pot when
he misses some of the time, and may get the same price on the seeing the
river that he would anyways checking again on the turn.
Checking the flop allows him to see what price he has on his hand and also
gain information based on the remainder of the action; if it's right, or
he sees the bettor as "making a play" or of marginal strength and believes
he can win it with chips if not cards enough of the time, this play can be
made.
There are times that this is a good play; they're very contingent upon the
nature of the game, the position of the bettor, number of callers in the
pot, etc. See how this is applied situationally to determine whether it's
advantageous or logical and go from there.
Hopefully all that's right, I'm no authority, but I thought about that
move a bit to find good things about it.
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Calahan MacCool
The can be that they have sufficient players to build a good pot to
draw too. Check raising 5 players on the flop with things like flush
draw, Flush draw and pair, etc ... where you have strong potential to
make your hand, plus backups is very legitimate.
Next is if you miss on the turn, you *may* have mortaged the turn with
the raise on the flop (I.E get river card for 1/2 price) -- saving
half a bet.
Then again, if you make it -- you may be able to pull off a check
raise again. It all depends upon whether you've cultivated the
appropriate table / player image.
Decreases in value as the game tightens up. But, still very viable to
pull from time to time to keep your opponants off balance.
Peter Phung
"Calahan MacCool" <cal...@thefianna.org> wrote in message
news:231db32c.04101...@posting.google.com...
> "Peter Phung" <pvp...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:<1IEcd.129199$a41.50213@pd7tw2no>...
> > Increasingly, in limit holdem (3-6, 5-10), I'm seeing more and more
players
> > check-raising flush draws or open-ended straight draws on the flop in
early
> > position and then betting out regardless of whether they make it or not.
Is
> > there any advantage or logic to this? I cant see one and I assume this
is a
> > bad play.. but I might be missing something.
> >
> > Peter
>
> The can be that they have sufficient players to build a good pot to
> draw too. Check raising 5 players on the flop with things like flush
> draw, Flush draw and pair, etc ... where you have strong potential to
> make your hand, plus backups is very legitimate.
>
> Next is if you miss on the turn, you *may* have mortaged the turn with
> the raise on the flop (I.E get river card for 1/2 price) -- saving
> half a bet.
This makes sense, however alot of players are just betting out regardless of
what hits on the turn and river.
>
> Then again, if you make it -- you may be able to pull off a check
> raise again. It all depends upon whether you've cultivated the
> appropriate table / player image.
>
> Decreases in value as the game tightens up. But, still very viable to
> pull from time to time to keep your opponants off balance.
Thanks for all the replies, it's opened my eyes to a few more nuances of the
game.
John Spencer
"Calahan MacCool" <cal...@thefianna.org> wrote in message
news:231db32c.04101...@posting.google.com...
> news:<1IEcd.129199$a41.50213@pd7tw2no>...
>> Increasingly, in limit holdem (3-6, 5-10), I'm seeing more and more
>> players
>> check-raising flush draws or open-ended straight draws on the flop in
>> early
>> position and then betting out regardless of whether they make it or not.
>> Is
>> there any advantage or logic to this? I cant see one and I assume this is
>> a
>> bad play.. but I might be missing something.
>>
>> Peter
>
> The can be that they have sufficient players to build a good pot to
> draw too. Check raising 5 players on the flop with things like flush
> draw, Flush draw and pair, etc ... where you have strong potential to
> make your hand, plus backups is very legitimate.
>
> Next is if you miss on the turn, you *may* have mortaged the turn with
> the raise on the flop (I.E get river card for 1/2 price) -- saving
> half a bet.
Not very likely when you check the turn and give the game away. I think
your getting confused with a raise in late position.
John Forsberg
> Heh. Are you ever surprised when your check closes the action for that
> round?
Well, basically he have to check in that spot. This is because one of
the opponents might have checked without looking at the board, thereby
stealing position. So in order not to leak information you have to check
it right back. It's kind of like Russ's Rule of Seven.
Calahan MacCool
> "Calahan MacCool" <cal...@thefianna.org> wrote in message
> news:231db32c.04101...@posting.google.com...
> > Next is if you miss on the turn, you *may* have mortaged the turn with
> > the raise on the flop (I.E get river card for 1/2 price) -- saving
> > half a bet.
>
> Not very likely when you check the turn and give the game away. I think
> your getting confused with a raise in late position.
Nope, if you continued reading, I also say that if you do make it you
can perhaps pull off a check raise -- depending upon the table image
you've developed.
The check is very viable, as well as a check raise, or bet. It just
depends upon your game.
Nobody
Checkraising a draw is almost unconditionally a terrible play, but
nowadays, most players are unconditionally terrible.
I'M BUYING YOUR $W'S AT 75%, I PAY REAL MONEY, ANY AMOUNT FOR SALE i
BUY AT THAT PRICE.
Gary Carson
>It's a good strategy in certain situations, if you're drawing to the best
>hand.
I'm sure it's a good stratagy. But, it seems it's kind of tricky.
Exactly how do you check raise from late position. Who's betting?
--
Gary Carson
http://garycarson.com