Pokerspot Software Now Opensource
Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless
and later as a player), I've decided to leave this scene behind. I'm going to
go chase my childhood dream of building video games.
Some of you already know bits and pieces of the Pokerspot story. Pokerspot was
conceived in late 1999 in a hot tub behind my Silicon Valley apartment. My
brother Dutch had graduated law school and had been playing poker in the casinos
all summer. I was working for a major Internet service provider building out a
high-speed Internet backbone. After watching Dutch play on (the biggest and
only real money site at the time) Planet Poker, and realizing the giant hole in
their feature set (omaha, stud, stt/mtts), we decided to launch the spot.
Many of you have wrongly held my brother personally and solely accountable for
Pokerspot's unraveling -- as if he had single-handedly devised a plot to launch
a would-be successful cardroom, met with some huge initial success, and in the
greatest act ever of prematurely leaving a great game, absconded with half a
million in player deposits rather than continue to grow a successful company in
an industry undergoing explosive growth. Most of you are probably intelligent
and mature enough to realize that a company like Pokerspot calls for the efforts
of a major team, and that even though Dutch has taken it upon himself to
disregard one of the biggest reasons for the formation of a corporation
(limiting liability) in paying back a small percentage of the players thousands
of dollars out of his own pocket -- he has absolutely no reason to do so.
Personally I hope he stops. My feeling on it is that anyone that had the balls
to buy into a poker site in an entirely unregulated industry (remember it's the
year 2000) deserved what they got (and why would you be playing with money you
couldn't afford to lose in the first place?). But, that's because Dutch is a
nice guy and I'm an asshole.
I left behind a promising career in a legitimate industry to start the site.
Pokerspot was built on a budget of $80k that we had to borrow out of family
coffers. My parents lost more money on the venture than the top dozen or so
players did. I've had almost 8 years to come to terms with the fact that even
though we were the first site to offer multi-player tournaments, even though
we'd done so much to define the online poker industry at large, it was not in
the cards for me to pull down tens of millions of dollars like my competitors
had. I'm pretty much over it by now, but sometimes it still stings. We all
took risks, and we all lost out. But it's ok. Money can't buy me love.
After NetPro Ltd. and ePayment Solutions both went belly-up after mass
chargebacks from mostly casino/sportsbook traffic (and both probably suffering a
"run on the bank"). After we tried unsuccessfully to offload our assets to
companies like CyberWorld Group / Golden Palace (who inked a $1m deal with us to
cover player liabilities along with small amount of candy for our shareholders)
who reneg'd only after recruiting my senior developer and effectively stealing
our source code. After all of this, we stopped working on Pokerspot, and we
tried to stop caring. At some point you've just got to chalk up the loss, learn
what you can, and move on.
So that's we did. We left the business world behind and started to really play
some cards. Dutch went to battle it out in the '03 WSOP and made enough money
to rent our 5 bdrm place (the card castle) in Culver City, and form the crew. A
little campy? Maybe.. but I defy anyone reading this to refute that our small
group of friends really has changed the poker world (and I believe for the
better).
4 years of this, and I've learned enough to know that for most of us there's no
bright light at the end of the tunnel. The winningest player I know was flat
broke two months before his windfall tournament victory, and along with the
skill he'd been building for almost half of his life, he had to enjoy a good
amount of luck to win. Walk into any major tournament going on in the country,
identify the "professionals", and I'm telling you that half of them are buried
in makeup and living a nightmare of maintaining a winning image just to keep the
interest of their current and future backers.
No, the real winners are the operators, the casinos, and the media. Even the
niche appendant companies like the affiliate marketers, the clothing lines, and
the video training sites.
They're juicing you so hard that it's amazingly difficult to make it as a
player. Oh, the winning players are out there too, don't get me wrong. There
are the phenoms. But I hold that if the numbers were really published, and the
companies were operating transparently.. well.. I think Andrew Jackson put it
best (even though he was speaking toward the establishment of the Federal
Reserve -- which makes it sort of ironic that his face graces our $20 bill now)
when he said:
"You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the
Eternal God, I will rout you out... If people only understood the rank injustice
of the money and banking system, there would be a revolution by morning."
I've almost completely lost faith in all of you to wake up and smell the coffee
and help yourselves. Organize. Unionize. Strike. Demand lower rake and
health benefits. God knows the overhead of operating these sites is nowhere
near the amount of money these greedy bastards are stealing from you. Your
beloved pros, the people you champion, they started their own sites and they're
sticking it in you too. You'd better make some serious changes.
Dutch tried to hand this to you on a silver platter years ago. I remember how
excited he was when he imagined Rakefree, and he hoped that it would finally
clear his name. You all heckled him and threw our previous mistakes in his
face. In an act of cowardice, Pokerstars banned him over it.
So, that's it. I'm done. Finito. But before my exit, allow me to make this
one last act which may or may not have any effect on the industry. If not, I
don't really care. I'm moving on to bigger and better. I think after you make
it deep enough in the poker world (assuming we maintain the status quo, anyway)
-- I think you'll develop a sick feeling in the pit of your stomache over it
too.
We've talked it over, and we're opensourcing the pokerspot code. It's ancient
and ugly, but it should lower the barrier to entry and eventually maybe it will
have the desired effect of eliminating the rake altogether and making poker a
fair game for the players. Information wants to be free. So here. Come and
get it. E-mail me if you need help.
http://code.google.com/p/pokerspot/source
Robert Boyd (aka TC_Clueless)
tc.cl...@gmail.com
_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
Necron99
_______________________________________________________________
Block Lists, Favorites, and more - http://www.recpoker.com
Susan
Russ is the victim here?
Russ didn't continue to accept new deposits even knowing they were on the
way out?
Russ didn't ENCOURAGE new deposits and lie to everyohe?
Russ didn't turn down an opportunity to sell out for enough money to repay
everyone?
Russ didn't comingle operating funds and PLAYERS MONEY?
Yeah - real good post.
"Necron99" <necr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1169420836$940...@recpoker.com...
Ben Finney
> We've talked it over, and we're opensourcing the pokerspot code.
> It's ancient and ugly, but it should lower the barrier to entry and
> eventually maybe it will have the desired effect of eliminating the
> rake altogether and making poker a fair game for the players.
> Information wants to be free. So here. Come and get it. E-mail me
> if you need help.
>
> http://code.google.com/p/pokerspot/source
Free software under the "new BSD license" terms. Thank you for this
contribution to society; I hope that a community can form around this
source code and create a new set of online poker rooms using common,
peer-maintained code.
--
\ "The best ad-libs are rehearsed." -- Graham Kennedy |
`\ |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
Gary Carson
On Jan 21 2007 5:23 PM, Susan wrote:
> Russ didn't comingle operating funds and PLAYERS MONEY?
>
The law school he went to didn't cover that.
> Yeah - real good post.
>
>
> "Necron99" wrote in message
> > Block Lists, Favorites, and more - /
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
Necron99
>
> Yeah - real good post.
>
I was commenting only on the post, not the history.
Well written, expressed his views clearly and succinctly, no obvious spelling
mistakes.
_______________________________________________________________
Your Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
tillius
On Jan 21, 6:26 pm, Ben Finney <bignose+hates-s...@benfinney.id.au>
wrote:
> Free software under the "new BSD license" terms. Thank you for this
> contribution to society; I hope that a community can form around this
> source code and create a new set of online poker rooms using common,
> peer-maintained code.
I considering starting an advertiser supported, no-deposit, points
based free-rolls and ring-tables, with points earned by viewing ads and
clicking sponsor links, and convertible to cash (and cash-out) after
reaching certain levels, primarily targeted at the US players :).
Thanks for the assistance!
Till
Gary Carson
On Jan 21 2007 5:37 PM, Necron99 wrote:
> On Jan 22 2007 10:23 AM, Susan wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Yeah - real good post.
> >
>
> I was commenting only on the post, not the history.
> Well written, expressed his views clearly and succinctly, no obvious spelling
> mistakes.
Long, rambling, pointless.
That's what you call well written?
>
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
New Feature: Mark All As Read! - http://www.recpoker.com
Necron99
> Long, rambling, pointless.
>
> That's what you call well written?
>
>
> >
> Gary Carson
> http://www.garycarson.com
By the standard usually achieved here it was a literary classic, put him up for
the booker.
_______________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless
Gary, you obviously missed the point of the post which was to publish the
Pokerspot source code under a BSD license for the community to use. I'm sorry
if reading my post was a horrible use of your time (maybe you're just a slow
reader?). I know you're not getting any younger, and I know you probably don't
understand the technology involved here. But why don't you keep the noise level
down so that people who are smart enough to derive some utility out of the post
can do so?
Go write "The Complete Book Of Rising To Fame In A Useless Usenet Forum: A
Comprehensive Guide to Being a Cocksucker" How are the book sales anyway? 76
used & new available from $2.85? Hmmmm.. How about your AdBlog, is that
keeping you in the game? And you call my single two-page post (in 7 years, by
the way) pointless and rambling.
I'm going to give Susan a reply too, because I think she deserves a distraction
from her PMS -- you know, for all her years of service of being a royal bitch on
this forum. But as for the rest of the haters, I'll just address you all
universally: you can all curl up and die for all I care.
Good luck on becoming a good person,
Robert Boyd
tc.cl...@gmail.com
On Jan 21 2007 5:53 PM, Gary Carson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Jan 21 2007 5:37 PM, Necron99 wrote:
>
> > On Jan 22 2007 10:23 AM, Susan wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Yeah - real good post.
> > >
> >
> > I was commenting only on the post, not the history.
> > Well written, expressed his views clearly and succinctly, no obvious
> > spelling
> > mistakes.
>
> Long, rambling, pointless.
>
> That's what you call well written?
>
>
> >
> Gary Carson
> http://www.garycarson.com
>
>
_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
da pickle
> I'll just address you all
> universally: you can all curl up and die for all I care.
You really are an asshole, aren't you. Do you think you are doing your
brother a favor?
Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless
Susan,
I know you people like to just make up your own facts when you don't have
complete information, and nothing I can tell you will change that. But, just to
hit you with some knowledge, when the processors folded the player deposits
obviously never hit the Pokerspot treasury. Thus, it doesn't make any sense to
accuse Dutch/Russ of "comingling" operating funds and players money.
Secondly, Burton Ritchie's lowball offer (which I'm assuming you're referring
to) for the Pokerspot software was made during the same time Golden Palace
offered 3x as much. Further, isn't Burton associated with the KC Mob? You
actually think he would have come up with money any more than GP did?
Instead, why don't you just stick to harping on my brother's mental illness? At
least there's something that will hold some water. If you get off on that sort
of thing, why don't you email me and I'll find some links for some support
groups for handicapped kids, or people suffering from epillepsy. You could
probably have a few jollies taunting people with those ailments too.
I think you're a delusional bitch, but I'll still pray for you.
Good luck on becoming a good person,
Robert Boyd
tc.cl...@gmail.com
On Jan 21 2007 5:23 PM, Susan wrote:
> are you joking?
>
> Russ is the victim here?
>
> Russ didn't continue to accept new deposits even knowing they were on the
> way out?
>
> Russ didn't ENCOURAGE new deposits and lie to everyohe?
>
> Russ didn't turn down an opportunity to sell out for enough money to repay
> everyone?
>
> Russ didn't comingle operating funds and PLAYERS MONEY?
>
> Yeah - real good post.
>
>
> "Necron99" wrote in message
_______________________________________________________________
Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites - http://www.recpoker.com
Gary Carson
On Jan 21 2007 6:35 PM, Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless wrote:
>
> Gary, you obviously missed the point of the post which was to publish the
> Pokerspot source code under a BSD license for the community to use.
I understood that.
It took you about 5,000 words to get to that point. I guess maybe that passes
for well written at that law school that forgot to teach your brother to not
comingle client funds.
I'm sorry
> if reading my post was a horrible use of your time (maybe you're just a slow
> reader?). I know you're not getting any younger, and I know you probably don't
> understand the technology involved here. But why don't you keep the noise
> level
> down so that people who are smart enough to derive some utility out of the
> post
> can do so?
I didn't say a word about my time. I just commented on your torturous lack of
writing skills.
I was polite and ignored your delusions about what caused you to go busted.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
Gary Carson
On Jan 21 2007 6:41 PM, Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless wrote:
>
> Susan,
>
> I know you people like to just make up your own facts when you don't have
> complete information, and nothing I can tell you will change that. But, just
> to
> hit you with some knowledge, when the processors folded the player deposits
> obviously never hit the Pokerspot treasury. Thus, it doesn't make any sense
> to
> accuse Dutch/Russ of "comingling" operating funds and players money.
Your comingling started long before the processor problems.
You had no operating capitol. You used player deposits as operating funds to
cover float and it blew up on you.
You're still trying to scam it.
And one reason your processor went belly up is you had no controls in place to
protect against credit card fraud.
You were not a victim here.
> > > Block Lists, Favorites, and more - /
>
>
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
Susan
#2 - everything I said in my previous post was admitted to by your brother
himself.
#3 - why - give me ONE reason - do you think that anyone who Russ burned in
the past would trust him with money again even on a rakefree site?
"Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless" <4308...@recpoker.com> wrote in message
news:1169426506$940...@recpoker.com...
Old Wolf
> I was commenting only on the post, not the history.
> Well written, expressed his views clearly and succinctly, no obvious spelling
> mistakes.
How about "winningest" ?
Necron99
_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
Old Wolf
> Turned into a good game last night, a thriller.
Sort of; Aus were still the strong money favourites at all stages
though so I wasn't getting too hyper. (In fact I went off to view the
comet for an hour or so, during the innings). If we'd taken even
one of those "big three" chances, it could have been a real nail-biter
:)
John_Dory
Necron99 wrote:
> Turned into a good game last night, a thriller.
Necron , obviously Aussie .
Do you play live locally ??
( I'm becoming a regular at Star City )
btw , nice pot on that set over set on Stars ...........
minus200(DELETETHIS)
in your story. There was a phone call to me about a buy out. I was
very clear up front that a buy out was a remote possibility. However
when Russ discovered we would only be interested in a buy out and that
we had no desire to be investors - THE PHONE CALL CAME TO A HALT AND I
WAS NEVER CONTACTED AGAIN. I have covered this in a previous post and my
story has not changed unlike the continuing saga of Poker Spot. We were
prepared to spend up to $10,000 just to find out if it might work or if
some of our regular investors would want to try a high risk venture.
None of us had any experience in offshore operations at any level but we
were all business people and have an idea of where to find talent to
help us with unfamiliar operational areas. Try to peddle your story to
the unknowing but dont try it with me. I knew when my conservation
ended with Russ that Poker Spot was a scam and I was just one of the
last minute hopes to gather a few more dollars. Your vision was to get
what you could and get out. My vision was to take Poker Spot to the
levels achieved by Party Poker and others. You got yours - I suspect
that every day you "think" about how much you never made with your
vision instead of following one like mine. Sure makes everyone on the
inside of Poker Spot look like fools and I venture a guess that is what
really bothers all you "brilliant" people. Underachievers always have a
good story and I guess this is yours.
There is an opportunity RIGHT NOW for someone that can figure out a
legal way to get money in and out of offshore gaming sites. I predict
someone will figure it out. Trust is a big part and is required to
accomplish that and Poker Spot has made that "bar" so much higher and
the saga of Poker Spot continues.
Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless wrote:
--
MINUS200
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention
of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but
rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, scotch in the
other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming
"WOO HOO what a ride!"
Will in New Haven
Susan wrote:
> #1 - I have never mentioned Russ' mental illness.
>
> #2 - everything I said in my previous post was admitted to by your brother
> himself.
>
> #3 - why - give me ONE reason - do you think that anyone who Russ burned in
> the past would trust him with money again even on a rakefree site?
C'mon Susan, they are going to give away the rights to software that
was really valuable a long fucking time again. The least we could do is
thank them. AND he is going to pray for you. Wow. I guess if you send
them your credit card number right away they will send you EVERY RECORD
EVER MADE!!!''
Life goes on and I hope people aren't wasting their time and energy
hating Dutch Boyd but why the fuck would anyone who was involved want
to HEAR about him again.
It WAS kickass software in its time though.
Will in New Haven
--
If you take in a starving dog off the street, and feed him, and make
him prosperous, he will not bite you.
This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.
- Mark Twain
Necron99
other than the odd homegame.
Looking to take a trip up to Sydney soon though.
_______________________________________________________________
arlo payne
Please take your bull shit down the street so not to smell badly!
It is clear to most people the whole pokerspot mess was mismanaged and those in
charge were way over their heads and fucked up something that could of made them
millions and millions. What is so sad now is how after all this time you people
still pop up and try to whitewash what really happened. The real questions is
why? Do you have a new scam in the works?
You your bullshit and how pokerspot burned people for money is good grounds for
what the goverment is now doing to the online sites. Just a prime example of
how screwed one can be when dealing with an offshore site ran by people of
questionable moral fiber.
Why don't you all just go away. It still blows my mind that somene has not
kicked the crap out of Dutchy boy for all his verbal crap not the mention the
money lost by players on the site while the site was still trying to get people
to deposit when it appears you all knew you had no plans to return funds on
deposit.
People ask me from time to time why I hang around RGP and have not started my
own site and make some money. the answer is an easy one. I hang around to be
part of the watchdog team that is sickened by carpetbaggers that just want to
take people off or the cheats that would get away with much more if RGP was not
around. I have no desire to make money for myself off of any one except directly
at the tables
Last year I worked with the FBI and was part of the effort that put one guy
behind bars for running computer scams. With luck maybe we can catch another
one and have them locked up this year.
Arlo (cleaning up America one carpetbagger at a time) Payne
arlo payne
On Jan 21 2007 8:17 PM, Will in New Haven wrote:
> Susan wrote:
> > #1 - I have never mentioned Russ' mental illness.
> >
> > #2 - everything I said in my previous post was admitted to by your brother
> > himself.
> >
> > #3 - why - give me ONE reason - do you think that anyone who Russ burned in
> > the past would trust him with money again even on a rakefree site?
>
> C'mon Susan, they are going to give away the rights to software that
> was really valuable a long fucking time again. The least we could do is
> thank them. AND he is going to pray for you. Wow. I guess if you send
> them your credit card number right away they will send you EVERY RECORD
> EVER MADE!!!''
>
> Life goes on and I hope people aren't wasting their time and energy
> hating Dutch Boyd but why the fuck would anyone who was involved want
> to HEAR about him again.
>
> It WAS kickass software in its time though.
>
> Will in New Haven
>
I really can't understand why they just don't go away. Whenever it seems to be
a dead issue one of the Pokerspot fools brings it all up again. Are they really
looking to rub salt in a wound until someone that lost money goes over the edge
and gets one of them?
Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless
Right Arlo, you're too smart for me. The new scam involves quitting poker and
opening the software so that some of you sorry schmucks might team up and help
yourselves. But now that you've blown the lid off of it, I have no idea what
I'm going to do.
And to minus, you have to realize that when the site was finally on the auction
block, offers were coming in from all angles. Dutch couldn't even respond to
all of them, and we went with the one which I'm sure anyone would have. You
also have to understand that it was important to us to try and sell to competant
folks (afterall, we knew how easy it was to fuck up in this industry). Certain
offers were disqualified from the get-go.
Golden Palace's offer was greater than anyone else's offer, and they were far
more established. It was a sweetheart deal, and one I'm sure they would have
made plenty of money on if they went through with it. A major part of the
agreement specifically tagged funds for the player account liabilities. Anyone
who's anyone in the industry knows well enough that you're swimming with sharks
in this space. It turns out GP was built on the profits of an offshores 011/976
scam. And where do you think the money for Pokerstars/PartyPoker came from?
I have no idea who all Dutch talked to. I'm just the guy that wasted time and
money building the thing.
The only reason I'm bringing all of this up again is to leave years of work in
the hands of somebody that might do some good with it. I know that's not minus,
arlo, gary or susan. But maybe it'll further the efforts of someone with a clue
that can actually acheive something useful. Not trying to the rub salt in open
wounds, or whatever. I never disputed some of our terrible decisions or bad
management. I just think it's funny that you folks assumed we somehow stole
your money. Like that would have made any sense.
So go ahead and send the FBI. We'd be happy to talk to them and open up any
records we still have. I think they're too busy to talk to us though.
Personally, I think the Fulltilt guys ought to be quite a bit more worried than
we ever would be.
I'll close Neteller style.
Cheers,
Robert Boyd
tc.cl...@gmail.com
_______________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless
By the way, douchebag, the opportunity is probably more in line with
implementing peer-to-peer (mental) poker and using several different and
competing trusted payment operators.
http://web.mit.edu/ardonite/6.857/secure_poker.pdf
_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
A Man Beaten by Jacks
wrote:
>By the way, douchebag, the opportunity is probably more in line with
>implementing peer-to-peer (mental) poker and using several different and
>competing trusted payment operators.
If I needed any reason to view Dutch Boyd and anyone associated with him
as total fucktools, this series of posts would be great. Since I don't need
any such evidence, however, it is superfluous.
Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless
If you hadn't been following rgp long enough to know the sort of people that
minus and arlo are (and I'm still waiting on the posts from the other cast of
characters) and the misinformation they like to spread in their smear campaign,
then my responses probably seem way overboard.
That's ok with me though.
Anyway, you sir, get the honor of my last rgp post ever.
Be good to each other. You're killing yourselves slowly in this cesspool.
_______________________________________________________________
Neal the REAL DEAL!
2 like MicroBob who if I ever see in person I will..........Your bro
ALWAYS had good intentions, I know that and you know that. Yes, I am
slightly biased because he paid me back. But if anyone reads the
archives here, they will see that I was always supportive of Russ and
knew he did nothing deliberately to hurt anyone. Yes, after the 'Spot
closed down I was on his case for repayment especially after his
bracelet win and yes your 100% correct that he had no legal obligation
only a moral one and for that he will have good karma the rest of his
life. Good luck in your future venture (s). Godspeed to all the Boyd's,
Neal!
A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
![Mark B [Diputsur]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjW1ukZesLHTvLryryGaLhoUTsW-4I5_N8bKNVoFKGU5T0OxggP6=s40-c)
Mark B [Diputsur]
news:1169443227$940...@recpoker.com...
>
> If you hadn't been following rgp long enough to know the sort of people
> that
> minus and arlo are (and I'm still waiting on the posts from the other cast
> of
> characters) and the misinformation they like to spread in their smear
> campaign,
> then my responses probably seem way overboard.
>
> That's ok with me though.
>
> Anyway, you sir, get the honor of my last rgp post ever.
>
> Be good to each other. You're killing yourselves slowly in this cesspool.
Speaking of cesspools, does your brother still drink his own piss?
You need to get that boy some help... and quick! :-)
Mark
--
www.myspace.com/diputsur
arlo payne
On Jan 21 2007 10:20 PM, Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless wrote:
>
> If you hadn't been following rgp long enough to know the sort of people that
> minus and arlo are (and I'm still waiting on the posts from the other cast of
> characters) and the misinformation they like to spread in their smear
> campaign,
> then my responses probably seem way overboard.
What you cant handle the truth?
Cast of characters my ass. We just make sure crooks cant get away with trying
to sell their bullshit to the newbies.
Tell you this much fuck with me and you will pay a very high price and I am sure
if you keep bring up Pokerspot someday someone that got taken will go over the
edge and then you will wish you just faded away.
Tell me this:
Why dont you just go away?
arlo payne
Just fucking go away already!
_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
John_Dory
Necron99 wrote:
> I live in Melbourne John, I cant stand crown and so never get to play live
> other than the odd homegame.
> Looking to take a trip up to Sydney soon though.
Star City pretty vile , too ( see some of my previous posts ) ,
but presently "it's the only game in town" .
My son starts down at ADFA in Canberra this week , so we'll check out
the action at Canberra casino when he turns 18 in March ( unless he
gets a profitable school started at Duntroon ) .
If you fancy a shot at Star City , email me before your visit .
Cheers Johnny D
Randy Hudson
Susan <sdbr...@netscape.net> wrote:
> Russ didn't comingle operating funds and PLAYERS MONEY?
Pretty much every sportsbook around then did that, and that was the only
model Boyd had. It was in the wake of Pokerspot's demise that sites started
marketing "segregated accounts"; before then, it was not something customers
cared about. Paradise, successor to Pokerspot as leading poker site, never
did use segregated accounts.
--
Randy Hudson
Gary Carson
On Jan 22 2007 1:02 AM, Randy Hudson wrote:
> In article ,
> Susan wrote:
>
> > Russ didn't comingle operating funds and PLAYERS MONEY?
>
> Pretty much every sportsbook around then did that, and that was the only
> model Boyd had. It was in the wake of Pokerspot's demise that sites started
> marketing "segregated accounts"; before then, it was not something customers
> cared about. Paradise, successor to Pokerspot as leading poker site, never
> did use segregated accounts.
>
> --
> Randy Hudson
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
Peg Smith
>I'm going to give Susan a reply too, because I think she deserves a distraction
>from her PMS -- you know, for all her years of service of being a royal bitch on
>this forum.
LOL. Wow, I see you're good at reading people. I'll bet you're a hell
of a poker player.
>But as for the rest of the haters, I'll just address you all
>universally: you can all curl up and die for all I care.
Ya got a real knack for PR, son. Well done. You should apply for a job
in customer service at Verizon, there's a niche there for people like
you.
Peg
greatbrit
if working_capital < 0 then
move(player_deposits,working_capital)
endif
if withdraw_request(playerID) then
if playerID_withdraw count = 1 then
send_email(soon_email)
else
send_email(verysoon_email)
endif
endif
beerboy
greatbrit <XXXpwes...@pacbell.net> typed:
lol
--
Kurt M. (beerboy)
Necron99
_______________________________________________________________
Your Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
Susan
From: nealross
Sat, Jan 20, 2001 11:18 pm
Pokerspot,
he said that he is contacting Russ Boyd the owner, the whole
situation stinks, they are not answering anyone's e-mails the past 48
hours, they have received over 200 e-mails since thursday and i'm quite
sure 99% of them are about money owed. Russ Boyd reads this forum and
it should be quite obvious to anyone with intelligence that Pokerspot
is out of money. After further review i have determimed that they have
given away in promotions north of $60,000, since this was created money
and they are not the Federal Reserve they have no way of paying out
this money if enough money does not come in via player deposits. This
is apparently what has happened, add these promo dollars to the
overhead of running a web site and you cannot survive without a serious
influx of working capital. Obviously pokerspot is banking on player's
money to fund their working capital. I guess this is allright if you
can pull it off. Paradise did the same thing when they opened but their
business grew fast enough for them to overtake the cashflow problem
within a month. Their stories about why checks were not being sent out
were among the most creative stories ever told. The stories that
pokerspot has emitted are so transparent a 4th grader can see through
the. Plain and simple they are out of money even if their intentions
are honest this situation should not exist and the credibility of
POKERPAGES is also suspect after all they are accepting advertising on
their site and their employees are playing at pokerspot. So before you
invest a lot of time in playing theeir so called FREE tournament i
would think long and hard because you may be lucky enough to win it and
unlucky enough not to get paid.
1 From: nealross - view profile
Date: Fri, Jan 19 2001 10:43 pm
Email: nealr...@my-deja.com
Groups: rec.gambling.poker
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It is with great sadness that i must report on this forum that
pokerspot is apparently insolvent and i strongly recommend that no sane
person deposit any money there. I made the rounds of the tables tonight
and it appears that many people are waiting for money, the sums range
from 350 to 6000. In my opinion here is what happened; there has been a
large noticeable pick up in action there the past few weeks with planet
and highlands being down and paradise having its detractors and dragon
going out of business. With this pick up there has been a corresponding
increase in cashout requests like any ponzi scheme when more money is
due out then coming in you are in trouble. There have been persistent
reports of slowpayments add this to the free money given away in
promotions then the sharks show up and take all this free money from
weaker players the sharks want to get paid but alas there are no funds
left in the cashier's cage. I have e-mailed them 20+ plus times about
my particular situation and was given BS until today when they told me
they "were having trouble with their processor....." read this as
meaning they have no funds to give to processor to pay customers. The
message went on to say they are mailing a check of course this can
delay things indefinitely. You are not hearing from others because they
are scared they won't get paid if they complain. I will always open my
big mouth when there is a need to say something, its called "chutzpah".
1 From: Pokerspot Support - view profile
Date: Sat, Mar 17 2001 2:16 am
Email: "Pokerspot Support" <supp...@pokerspot.com>
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Dear Pokerspot Players,
As many of you are aware, several weeks ago we began experiencing problems
with our then current credit card processor, Net Pro, Ltd. We promptly
stopped processing through Net Pro and have since been unable to take new
player deposits or process cashouts. We are pleased to announce that we
recently signed an agreement with Surefire Commerce, the most trusted name
in the online gaming processing community, to process all future player
deposits. All cashouts requested after March 15* will now be processed as
normal.
In addition, we also are pleased to announce we are at a point where we can
start repaying prior cashouts. All cashouts that have been requested prior
to the 15th of March will be paid according to the following schedule:
20% by April 15;
20% by May 15;
20% by June 15;
20% by July 15; and
40% by August 15.
Please note that we will be paying all players who cashed out in January or
February an additional 20% of their cashout as interest. We are pursuing
several different avenues that might allow us the opportunity to pay all
players before the above dates, including a lawsuit against Net Pro, Ltd.,
some short-term loans using the software as collateral, and a pending
licensing deal.
Once again, we apologize sincerely for the inconvenience this situation has
caused our players. We recognize that there has been quite a bit of damage
to our reputation as a result of Net Pro, Ltd. and Barclays Bank freezing
the
player funds, and we can only hope that our reputation will be repaired once
we are able to pay all of our players.
On a side note, our service provider has upgraded our bandwidth to an
optical
fiber connection. You should notice decreased latency, and increased
playability. When new developments arise, we will keep you updated. In the
meantime, we hope to see you on the site.
Sincerely,
Russ Boyd
President, Pokerspot.com
* - Please note that this does not include cashouts made prior to March 15
that have been re-applied to a player's account.
From: nealross - view profile
Date: Thurs, Jan 18 2001 4:42 pm
Email: nealr...@my-deja.com
Groups: rec.gambling.poker
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Dear Mr. Boyd, i requested two cashouts from your site on 1/5/01 and
1/07/01 i have not received them as of this writing and i have been
told mis-truths from your support team. I would like my money now and i
would like you to post on this forum what pokerspot's policies are as
to cashouts!
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Susan
criticism.
"Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless" <tc.cl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1169419355$940...@recpoker.com...
> After almost 8 years in this industry (first as an entrepreneur/business
> owner,
> and later as a player), I've decided to leave this scene behind. I'm going
> to
> The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
XaQ Morphy
Daniel? Is that you?
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
--------
* kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com
A Man Beaten by Jacks
>In article <sBSsh.96$g57...@newsfe02.lga>,
> Susan <sdbr...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>> Russ didn't comingle operating funds and PLAYERS MONEY?
>
>Pretty much every sportsbook around then did that, and that was the only
>model Boyd had.
Not true. He had a law school education, in which the importance of
segregating client and operating funds is pounded and pounded on.
Granted, running a poker site is not the same as legal practice, but
Dutch is a smart boy and should have been able to learn something
from his expensive legal education. It may somewhat excuse his
failure that it was industry practice at the time, but still doesn't excuse
continuing to entice deposits from people at a time he damn well knew
it was going belly-up.
A Man Beaten by Jacks
wrote:
>If you hadn't been following rgp long enough to know the sort of people that
>minus and arlo are (and I'm still waiting on the posts from the other cast of
>characters) and the misinformation they like to spread in their smear campaign,
>then my responses probably seem way overboard.
I know what kind of a character Arlo is. And even though he is a character, it
is quite obvious he also HAS character, something the Boyd clan appears to lack.
>That's ok with me though.
>Anyway, you sir, get the honor of my last rgp post ever.
I will treasure it forever. No, really.
>Be good to each other. You're killing yourselves slowly in this cesspool.
I am not killing anything except time and perhaps a few brain cells from
exposing myself to the concentrated stupidity displayed in posts like yours.
Anyway, 10 out of 10 for open sourcing some code, but minus several million
for good thinking on everything else. (To paraphrase Beeblebrox.)
XaQ Morphy
> criticism.
I think he expected exactly what he got. He's leaving the online poker
world, and laid down one last super troll.
I mean let's face it Susan, any time the word Pokerspot is mentioned, you
and the rest of the "old guard" on RGP go apeshit over it, bringing up the
same old arguments and rehashing the same conversations. Don't get me
wrong, I'm not speaking of the validity of those statements, I'm just
stating that they come out every time Pokerspot comes up.
Just pointing out the obvious, but sometimes it's not so obvious to some.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
______________________________________________________________________
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
minus200(DELETETHIS)
trouble and you nor anyone else has any clue about the "worth" of any of
our group. I am by far the poorest investor in a regular group of 25 or
so. Most of our packages are real estate ventures set up as LLC's and
some of us are in and some are out on each proposal. Two of our regular
group are considered wealthy by any standards and several more are
certainly not worried about their next meal. We have never allowed
attorneys since they want to sue if they become unhappy. You (whoever
you are) run off at the mouth in areas that you have no clue and we are
one of those areas. I again say that it was always a low probability
that our normal group would have have put a package together but two or
three of us may have had a weak moment. Any offer that I (and my
group)would have been involve with would have included ALL liabilities
and that certainly would include players account held in trust. ANY and
I mean ANY offer that did not protect those monies was not a real offer
or a honest effort to sell the company. The fact that you would even
mention it illustrates your lack of concern for the money of others and
your obligation to honor the trust and good faith of Poker Spot's players.
--
minus200(DELETETHIS)
Susan wrote:
--
Mark-T
> > Well written, expressed his views clearly and succinctly,
> no obvious spelling mistakes.
>
> Long, rambling, pointless.
> That's what you call well written?
Charles Dickens isn't your style, I take it?
Mark
minus200(DELETETHIS)
Boyd showed up and I suppose (if you are truly leaving) I will be here
after you are gone. My real name is not that hard to find and I have
lived in the same house for 36 years. I have had the same phone number
(with 3 different area codes) for the same 36 years and have been listed
in the phone book just as long. I doubt you can find anyone that I owe
money-- oops my AMEX bill is $6500 for the month so count them as one. I
just paid my sales tax and business licenses so I dont even owe the govt
any money. I wonder if you (or if you are Russ) can make the same
claims. I rarely have anything bad to say about anyone here. Almost
all my negative comment here are about the misinformation posted here by
the Poker Spot spin machine (although it may need a tune up). If you
want to be the one that says my character doesnt match yours then I
gladly accept the compliment. Go pick on some people your own size and
leave the adults alone.
Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless wrote:
--
da pickle
>> Long, rambling, pointless.
>> That's what you call well written?
>
> Charles Dickens isn't your style, I take it?
Did someone make you read Dickens, Mark? How about Faulkner or Joyce?
I will admit that P.J. O'Rourke is more my style.
Siam
Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless wrote:
> So that's we did. We left the business world behind and started to really play
> some cards. Dutch went to battle it out in the '03 WSOP and made enough money
> to rent our 5 bdrm place (the card castle) in Culver City, and form the crew. A
> little campy? Maybe.. but I defy anyone reading this to refute that our small
> group of friends really has changed the poker world (and I believe for the
> better).
>
Small group changed the poker world?! WTF?
Your brother came on RGP and lied. You used RGP to market your site
and then you called a player a liar who was having a problem cashing
out. You threatened to close his account!
Go justify your BS somewhere else.
Susan
good things about getting old. :-)
"Peg Smith" <PegSmit...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:jnr8r2p0jisddbo4t...@4ax.com...
> Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless <4308...@recpoker.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm going to give Susan a reply too, because I think she deserves a
>>distraction
>>from her PMS -- you know, for all her years of service of being a royal
>>bitch on
>>this forum.
>
> LOL. Wow, I see you're good at reading people. I'll bet you're a hell
> of a poker player.
> Peg
Gary Carson
blogs).
On Jan 22 2007 2:32 PM, Susan wrote:
> teehee Little does he know I haven't had PMS is years - one of the few
> good things about getting old. :-)
>
>
> "Peg Smith" wrote in message
> news:jnr8r2p0jisddbo4t...@4ax.com...
> > Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless <4308...@recpoker.com> wrote:
> >
> >>I'm going to give Susan a reply too, because I think she deserves a
> >>distraction
> >>from her PMS -- you know, for all her years of service of being a royal
> >>bitch on
> >>this forum.
> >
> > LOL. Wow, I see you're good at reading people. I'll bet you're a hell
> > of a poker player.
>
> > Peg
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
New Feature: Mark All As Read! - http://www.recpoker.com
Gary Carson
On Jan 22 2007 10:52 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 07:02:15 +0000 (UTC), i...@panix.com (Randy Hudson) wrote:
>
> >In article ,
> > Susan wrote:
> >
> >> Russ didn't comingle operating funds and PLAYERS MONEY?
> >
> >Pretty much every sportsbook around then did that, and that was the only
> >model Boyd had.
>
> Not true. He had a law school education, in which the importance of
> segregating client and operating funds is pounded and pounded on.
> Granted, running a poker site is not the same as legal practice, but
> Dutch is a smart boy and should have been able to learn something
> from his expensive legal education. It may somewhat excuse his
> failure that it was industry practice at the time, but still doesn't excuse
> continuing to entice deposits from people at a time he damn well knew
> it was going belly-up.
Russ didn't know it was going belly-up.
He should have known, but he wasn't totally sane.
Part of mania is the beleif that you'll overcome all obstacles. He probably
really beleived that everything would be okay. His partners are another story.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
Your Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
eric...@ricochet.com
Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless wrote:
> some cards. Dutch went to battle it out in the '03 WSOP and made enough money
> to rent our 5 bdrm place (the card castle) in Culver City, and form the crew. A
> little campy? Maybe.. but I defy anyone reading this to refute that our small
> group of friends really has changed the poker world (and I believe for the
> better).
>
> The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
Randy Hudson
A Man Beaten by Jacks <nob...@fool.foo> wrote:
> Not true. He had a law school education, in which the importance of
> segregating client and operating funds is pounded and pounded on.
In running a law firm, that's important. Most businesses don't segregate
funds (when you pay amazon.com for some books, the money goes into their
operating funds immediately; if the book cannot be delivered, they disburse
your refund back out of those operating funds.) Even banks commingle
deposits and operating funds, though in their case a small percentage of the
deposits is required to be kept in reserve, either deposited at the Fed or
kept in cash in the banks vaults.
When you buy in at casino-based poker room, the funds you give them are
treated as casino operating funds.
> It may somewhat excuse his failure that it was industry practice at the
> time, but still doesn't excuse continuing to entice deposits from people
> at a time he damn well knew it was going belly-up.
I'm not making excuses for him. He chose business associates poorly, which
cost both him and the people who trusted him. And when things went
pear-shaped, he chose to lie, on the theory that he could keep everything
under control that way, rather than tell the embarassing truth and seek
help. There was certainly an element of self-deception there, too; I wasn't
on the inside, so I can't tell how much was self-deception and how much was
calculated deception of others despite knowing the truth.
--
Randy Hudson
Michael Sullivan
> Many of you have wrongly held my brother personally and solely accountable
> for Pokerspot's unraveling -- as if he had single-handedly devised a plot
> to launch a would-be successful cardroom, met with some huge initial
> success, and in the greatest act ever of prematurely leaving a great game,
> absconded with half a million in player deposits rather than continue to
> grow a successful company in an industry undergoing explosive growth.
> Most of you are probably intelligent and mature enough to realize that a
> company like Pokerspot calls for the efforts of a major team, and that
> even though Dutch has taken it upon himself to disregard one of the
> biggest reasons for the formation of a corporation (limiting liability) in
> paying back a small percentage of the players thousands of dollars out of
> his own pocket -- he has absolutely no reason to do so.
Bullshit. Player deposits is not the same thing as investments or even
loans. It should be treated like a bank deposit and you make damn sure
you have investments to cover the money. Why? Because it *isn't
yours*.
> Personally I hope he stops. My feeling on it is that anyone that had the
> balls to buy into a poker site in an entirely unregulated industry
Dude. When random bookies do what you did to the wrong people, they
don't just get their reputation sullied, they usually end up dead.
Consider yourself extremely lucky.
> (remember it's the year 2000) deserved what they got (and why would you be
> playing with money you couldn't afford to lose in the first place?).
Why would you be taking deposits you couldn't afford to pay back in the
first place? You're supposed to go out of business when you can't make
it on the revenue collected legitimately from rakes, fees and ads.
Taking deposit money to pay creditors or whatever you used it for isn't
part of the expected contract.
The day you drew down your funds below what players had on deposit, you
started *stealing* money. Not losing an investment. Stealing. Players
weren't investing with you.
So yes, Dutch bloody well should be paying it back, and you should be
blowing the moths out of your wallet along with him. You should be
paying a whole fuck of a lot more of it back than a small percentage.
IMO, none of you should be spending more than it takes to survive until
you've paid back every dime.
> But, that's because Dutch is a
> nice guy and I'm an asshole.
Well, you're certainly an asshole if this is your take on it.
> I've almost completely lost faith in all of you to wake up and smell the
> coffee and help yourselves. Organize. Unionize. Strike. Demand lower
> rake and health benefits. God knows the overhead of operating these sites
> is nowhere near the amount of money these greedy bastards are stealing
> from you.
So what I'd like to know is this: Given how cheap it is to run a site
and how much money they take in, to the point where you feel free to
describe the money that players agree to pay them as "stealing", how in
the world did you end up losing money and going out of business?
Pokerstars hasn't stolen anybody's money. Poker*spot* stole people's
money.
Get a life you stupid git. Either make a serious effort to pay back the
money you stole or just crawl under a rock and die. You can't spin your
way out of this, asshole.
Michael
Old Wolf
>
>
Want to put $50 on it? (you pay me if you post again)
Necron99
On Jan 22 2007 10:23 AM, Susan wrote:
> are you joking?
>
See what a good post this was now?
Soundly torn to shreds with replies that have actual paragraphs.
Siam
Michael Sullivan wrote:
>
> Bullshit. Player deposits is not the same thing as investments or even
> loans. It should be treated like a bank deposit and you make damn sure
> you have investments to cover the money. Why? Because it *isn't
> yours*.
>
>
> The day you drew down your funds below what players had on deposit, you
> started *stealing* money. Not losing an investment. Stealing. Players
> weren't investing with you.
>
Mike -- business co-mingle all the time and use customer deposits
without segregating the accounts. My company requires a lot of upfront
payments before service is delivered. We don't keep that money in a
separate account. Banks do the same thing. They use upwards of 90%+
of customer's deposits.
What was unethical in my book was that he went on to RGP and threatened
a customer who was asking an honest question about the delay in
payment. They used RGP to market their site and then when the heat was
on, they lied and flailed away.
When businesses get in trouble (and I have been in one that was running
low on cash) it is a delicate balancing act. What you want most is
time. You sometimes have to make promises only with the hope that
things will get turned around.
Screwing the customer though is much different than companies that deal
with other companies. They have bad debt expenses (or should) built
into their price and projections.
And bank customers are protected by the FDIC.
Cheers,
Siam
David Nicoson
> You sometimes have to make promises only with the hope that
> things will get turned around.
No, no you don't.
Susan
from now on.
BTW, I'm guessing you didn't know the "story" when you initially posted?
"Necron99" <necr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1169515415$941...@recpoker.com...
JohnnyYooper
"The check is in the mail". it's as American as apple pie.
Necron99
> Yeah? Well, only because you said that am I now going to use spell-check
> from now on.
>
> BTW, I'm guessing you didn't know the "story" when you initially posted?
>
>
Yes, I knew the background and had already heard the lame stories and excuses
they put forward.
The fact is they were naive and undercapitalized. From experience I can tell you
that their payment provider had nothing to do with the situation they found
themselves in.
Being stupid is not a mitigating factor when you have stolen, never has been.
They shold be paying back every single account holder.
A Man Beaten by Jacks
>Michael Sullivan wrote:
>> Bullshit. Player deposits is not the same thing as investments or even
>> loans. It should be treated like a bank deposit and you make damn sure
>> you have investments to cover the money. Why? Because it *isn't
>> yours*.
>> The day you drew down your funds below what players had on deposit, you
>> started *stealing* money. Not losing an investment. Stealing. Players
>> weren't investing with you.
>Mike -- business co-mingle all the time and use customer deposits
>without segregating the accounts. My company requires a lot of upfront
>payments before service is delivered. We don't keep that money in a
>separate account. Banks do the same thing. They use upwards of 90%+
>of customer's deposits.
Once you are paid, the money is yours. You can do with it whatever you want.
You are now obligated, however, to provide the agreed-upon service. When
you deposit to a poker site, you have not PAID them. That money remains
YOURS. They have no business touching it except pursuant to agreed upon
terms, such as the rake.
Siam
A bank takes your money and uses it. They make investments with your
money. They can lose all your money. All that is protecting you is
the FDIC. There is nothing illegal.
If everyone tried to take out all their money from a bank at once, it
wouldn't be there, even though it is your money.
A poker site shouldn't keep all the player's money segregated
necessarily either. They know the average refund per day and should
keep a standard deviation of that to ensure that they have enough money
to refund any player. The remainder could be used on short-term easily
redeemable investments. That is exactly what my company does.
Cheers,
Siam
Siam
You obviously have never worked in a company near bankruptcy with
employee salaries due. Sacrifices need to be made. It is a juggling
act. You don't just close your doors. You keep plugging away and do
all you can. You work on payment plans.
I am not condoning the Boyds' behavior. Incredible immaturity.
Cheers
Necron99
> A bank takes your money and uses it. They make investments with your
> money. They can lose all your money. All that is protecting you is
> the FDIC. There is nothing illegal.
>
> If everyone tried to take out all their money from a bank at once, it
> wouldn't be there, even though it is your money.
>
> A poker site shouldn't keep all the player's money segregated
> necessarily either. They know the average refund per day and should
> keep a standard deviation of that to ensure that they have enough money
> to refund any player. The remainder could be used on short-term easily
> redeemable investments. That is exactly what my company does.
>
> Cheers,
> Siam
Yes, you keep enough money on call to handle day to day requirements and make
the rest work for you in (mostly) rolling term deposits. If everyone tried to
withdraw all their funds from my compnay we couldn't cover it UNTIL we free'd up
those funds.
This though is an entirely different situation, they spent the players money,
not invested it and didn't have a sufficient capital reserve to cover their
operting costs and fraud losses.
Necron99
> You obviously have never worked in a company near bankruptcy with
> employee salaries due. Sacrifices need to be made. It is a juggling
> act. You don't just close your doors. You keep plugging away and do
> all you can. You work on payment plans.
>
> I am not condoning the Boyds' behavior. Incredible immaturity.
>
> Cheers
If you did this and got away with it you were incredibly lucky.
If you are spending clients funds to do other than fulfill their order or
service you are technically insolvent.
Gary Carson
On Jan 22 2007 9:38 PM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> On 22 Jan 2007 17:46:53 -0800, "Siam" wrote:
>
> >Michael Sullivan wrote:
>
> >> Bullshit. Player deposits is not the same thing as investments or even
> >> loans. It should be treated like a bank deposit and you make damn sure
> >> you have investments to cover the money. Why? Because it *isn't
> >> yours*.
>
> >> The day you drew down your funds below what players had on deposit, you
> >> started *stealing* money. Not losing an investment. Stealing. Players
> >> weren't investing with you.
>
> >Mike -- business co-mingle all the time and use customer deposits
> >without segregating the accounts. My company requires a lot of upfront
> >payments before service is delivered. We don't keep that money in a
> >separate account. Banks do the same thing. They use upwards of 90%+
> >of customer's deposits.
>
In the examples you use they aren't keeping the cash, but they do have assets to
back up the liabilities.
Boyd used the assets player 2 deposited to honor his liability to player 1 (to
cover player 1's cashout).
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
Block Lists, Favorites, and more - http://www.recpoker.com
Siam
Gary Carson wrote:
>
> Boyd used the assets player 2 deposited to honor his liability to player 1 (to
> cover player 1's cashout).
>
Just like a bank. Difference being that banks are regulated and there
is deposit insurance.
dotk...@hotmail.com
reading things like this remind me exactly what it is that makes me
depressed about people. I live happily under my naive delusions about
the inherent goodness of others, generally. Thank god the good folks
of RGP are around to remind me that people can reallllly suck as well.
Yes Mr. Will in New Haven...Robert Boyd is giving away the rights to
software that was really valuable a long time ago, but Im going to
hazard to guess that he's not doing because he gives two shits about
what Will in New Haven, Susan from where-f'in-ever or Grammar Carson
think about it. (I think the tone of his post made that, at least,
evident)
Try this: pretend that you all are NOT hatemongers. Pretend (for a
minute) that innovation motivated you more than mob mentality...and
that knowledge had more influence over your day than gossip. Its a big
stretch, I know...but humor me, please.
If you were that type of person- the type of person that gave a damn
about solving problems (instead of the people you are- reluctant to
solve problems because you glorify in them) you'd quickly realize that
Robert Boyd didn't opensource the code to pokerspot so that you would
appreciate him or Dutch. He didn't do it for YOU at all- he did it for
the guy you're pretending to be. The guy who is out there trying to
solve problems- because THAT GUY will take the information and DO
SOMETHING NEW WITH IT- and should'nt that be what its all about? (I
mean- besides being all about how much we can judge one another, of
coarse)
And while I have certainly learned that not everyone is capable of
stepping outside of themselves long enough to appreciate an act of
shared information (and the value of a person doing so)- I was a bit
shocked to see so many of you are so indecent as to criticize it. I
mean, is that it? Is that what you do?
Im looking forward to the "homepage games" to crop up, and playing
against other posters from the poker forums I *do* enjoy- without
having to pay a rake. The rest of you can be stick to being nasty and
miserable- I for one think its dope they opensourced the code and
appreciate it.
Will in New Haven wrote:
> Susan wrote:
> > #1 - I have never mentioned Russ' mental illness.
> >
> > #2 - everything I said in my previous post was admitted to by your brother
> > himself.
> >
> > #3 - why - give me ONE reason - do you think that anyone who Russ burned in
> > the past would trust him with money again even on a rakefree site?
>
> C'mon Susan, they are going to give away the rights to software that
> was really valuable a long fucking time again. The least we could do is
> thank them. AND he is going to pray for you. Wow. I guess if you send
> them your credit card number right away they will send you EVERY RECORD
> EVER MADE!!!''
>
> Life goes on and I hope people aren't wasting their time and energy
> hating Dutch Boyd but why the fuck would anyone who was involved want
> to HEAR about him again.
>
> It WAS kickass software in its time though.
>
> Will in New Haven
>
> --
>
> If you take in a starving dog off the street, and feed him, and make
> him prosperous, he will not bite you.
> This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.
> - Mark Twain
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless" <4308...@recpoker.com> wrote in message
> > news:1169426506$940...@recpoker.com...
> > >
> > > Susan,
> > >
> > > I know you people like to just make up your own facts when you don't have
> > > complete information, and nothing I can tell you will change that. But,
> > > just to
> > > hit you with some knowledge, when the processors folded the player
> > > deposits
> > > obviously never hit the Pokerspot treasury. Thus, it doesn't make any
> > > sense to
> > > accuse Dutch/Russ of "comingling" operating funds and players money.
> > >
> > > Secondly, Burton Ritchie's lowball offer (which I'm assuming you're
> > > referring
> > > to) for the Pokerspot software was made during the same time Golden Palace
> > > offered 3x as much. Further, isn't Burton associated with the KC Mob? You
> > > actually think he would have come up with money any more than GP did?
> > >
> > > Instead, why don't you just stick to harping on my brother's mental
> > > illness? At
> > > least there's something that will hold some water. If you get off on that
> > > sort
> > > of thing, why don't you email me and I'll find some links for some support
> > > groups for handicapped kids, or people suffering from epillepsy. You could
> > > probably have a few jollies taunting people with those ailments too.
> > >
> > > I think you're a delusional bitch, but I'll still pray for you.
> > >
> > > Good luck on becoming a good person,
> > >
> > > Robert Boyd
> > > tc.cl...@gmail.com
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jan 21 2007 5:23 PM, Susan wrote:
> > >
> > >> are you joking?
> > >>
> > >> Russ is the victim here?
> > >>
> > >> Russ didn't continue to accept new deposits even knowing they were on the
> > >> way out?
> > >>
> > >> Russ didn't ENCOURAGE new deposits and lie to everyohe?
> > >>
> > >> Russ didn't turn down an opportunity to sell out for enough money to
> > >> repay
> > >> everyone?
> > >>
> > >> Russ didn't comingle operating funds and PLAYERS MONEY?
> > >>
> > >> Yeah - real good post.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> "Necron99" wrote in message
> > >> news:1169420836$940...@recpoker.com...
> > >> > Good post, well done.
> > >> >> Personally I hope he stops. My feeling on it is that anyone that had
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> balls
> > >> >> to buy into a poker site in an entirely unregulated industry (remember
> > >> >> it's
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> year 2000) deserved what they got (and why would you be playing with
> > >> >> money you
> > >> >> couldn't afford to lose in the first place?). But, that's because
> > >> >> Dutch
> > >> >> is a
> > >> >> nice guy and I'm an asshole.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I've almost completely lost faith in all of you to wake up and smell
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> coffee
> > >> >> and help yourselves. Organize. Unionize. Strike. Demand lower rake and
> > >> >> health benefits. God knows the overhead of operating these sites is
> > >> >> nowhere
> > >> >> near the amount of money these greedy bastards are stealing from you.
> > >> > _______________________________________________________________
> > >> > Block Lists, Favorites, and more - http://www.recpoker.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
Gary Carson
On Jan 23 2007 2:58 AM, dotk...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Yes Mr. Will in New Haven...Robert Boyd is giving away the rights to
> software that was really valuable a long time ago, but Im going to
> hazard to guess that he's not doing because he gives two shits about
> what Will in New Haven, Susan from where-f'in-ever or Grammar Carson
> think about it. (I think the tone of his post made that, at least,
> evident)
My guess is he's doing it to try to claim some sort of tax deduction for the
donation (I have no idea if a deduction for donating to open source is allowed
or not, but he'll try anyway). I'm also guessing he's going to back date the
donation to December.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
Your Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
Gary Carson
No, it's not just like a bank at all.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
David Nicoson
> You obviously have never worked in a company near bankruptcy with
> employee salaries due.
True, I've never been in a position of power in such a company.
You obviously don't take the word promise as seriously as I think one
should.
> Sacrifices need to be made.
When people use the passive voice, I wonder why. *Who* has to make
sacrifices?
David Nicoson
> Pretty much every sportsbook around then did that, and that was the only
> marketing "segregated accounts"; before then, it was not something customers
> cared about. Paradise, successor to Pokerspot as leading poker site, never
> did use segregated accounts.
I don't think anyone would tolerate a B&M without cash on hand to cover
the players' money. For instance, in a small club if a house player
blows away so much they can't cover the chips in play, people are
pretty pissed off.
The online sites are in a position to get away with this, but they have
to know that the players' expectation is that their money is kept as a
liquid asset.
conmanh...@yahoo.com
On Jan 21, 11:22 pm, "Neal the REAL DEAL!" <daytrade...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>.........Your bro ALWAYS had good intentions,
I agree with Two-Face, I mean Neal. Now, Boyds, send me the money I
had in my pokerspot account when that series of unfortunate events
outside your control occurred.
Peace! ConManHuckster (Tm)
RazzO
On Jan 21 2007 4:35 PM, Robert Boyd - TC_Clueless wrote:
> I'm going to give Susan a reply too, because I think she deserves a
distraction
> from her PMS -- you know, for all her years of service of being a royal
bitch on
> this forum.
RazzO
email:ticorazz (at) yahoo.com
http://www.razzo.com
_______________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
TLira
<snipped>
You are a complete douchebag.
TLira
Gary Carson
I'm reminded of Huey Long's theory of taxation.
We aren't going to tax you, we aren't going to tax me, we're going to tax that
guy over there sitting under that tree.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
A Man Beaten by Jacks
wrote:
>On Jan 22 2007 9:38 PM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
>> On 22 Jan 2007 17:46:53 -0800, "Siam" wrote:
>> >Michael Sullivan wrote:
>> >> Bullshit. Player deposits is not the same thing as investments or even
>> >> loans. It should be treated like a bank deposit and you make damn sure
>> >> you have investments to cover the money. Why? Because it *isn't
>> >> yours*.
>> >> The day you drew down your funds below what players had on deposit, you
>> >> started *stealing* money. Not losing an investment. Stealing. Players
>> >> weren't investing with you.
>> >Mike -- business co-mingle all the time and use customer deposits
>> >without segregating the accounts. My company requires a lot of upfront
>> >payments before service is delivered. We don't keep that money in a
>> >separate account. Banks do the same thing. They use upwards of 90%+
>> >of customer's deposits.
>In the examples you use they aren't keeping the cash, but they do have assets to
>back up the liabilities.
>Boyd used the assets player 2 deposited to honor his liability to player 1 (to
>cover player 1's cashout).
There is, as you are certainly aware, a name for this kind of scheme.
It is called a Ponzi scam. They invariably end in disaster.
Susan
brag about knowing Russ after this whole debacle.
"RazzO" <ra...@razzo.com> wrote in message
news:2ueg84x...@recgroups.com...
David Nicoson
> Just like a bank. Difference being that banks are regulated and there
> is deposit insurance.
Somebody owes me some interest then.
Will in New Haven
dotk...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I've only made it thus far in this thread- but I have to say that
> reading things like this remind me exactly what it is that makes me
> depressed about people. I live happily under my naive delusions about
> the inherent goodness of others, generally. Thank god the good folks
> of RGP are around to remind me that people can reallllly suck as well.
>
> Yes Mr. Will in New Haven...Robert Boyd is giving away the rights to
> software that was really valuable a long time ago, but Im going to
> hazard to guess that he's not doing because he gives two shits about
> what Will in New Haven, Susan from where-f'in-ever or Grammar Carson
> think about it. (I think the tone of his post made that, at least,
> evident)
Not only was the software really valuable a long time ago, it has been
reverse-engineered several times and better software is in the public
domain. He is giving away nothing. Pointing that out isn't
hatemongering, it is just stating what is. Now shut the fuck up you
worthless top-posting sock-puppet celebrity-sucker. If he had never
been on TV, no one would be defending him but his brother.
Will in New Haven
--
"Because it reverses the normal flow of conversation for no reason."
"But why does it matter?
"Yes, there's no doubt about it."
"So you feel strongly about it."
"Kill a top-poster every day and you do the world a favor."
xyious
top posting for convenience....
i'm sure none of the below actually complained that boyd made his software
open source. i'm sure they were talking about pretty much everything else
in his post.... but i suppose it's possible i missed something.
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
______________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
da pickle
>> When people use the passive voice, I wonder why. *Who* has to make
>> sacrifices?
>
> I'm reminded of Huey Long's theory of taxation.
>
> We aren't going to tax you, we aren't going to tax me, we're going to tax
> that
> guy over there sitting under that tree.
That is the Long and the short of it!
Don't tax you, don't tax me; tax that guy behind that tree.
Siam
First, you try to protect the company in the hopes that you gcan
generate cash flow to repay debts. That is why you have bankruptcy
that allows you to continue to operate. It is sometimes a much better
option than simply turning the lights out.
Sacrifices may include -- extending payments out and asking for
reductions. What you do in that position is that you set up a priority
list. Usually employees come first, after that utilities and such to
keep the business operating. After that, it is a juggling act. It
isn't fun and it does test your character. Promises are made with hope
that things will turn around. You are dealing with businesses though
that are used to this and have it built into their price that not all
companies will be able to pay back. You never want to be so strict
with your lending policies that you have a zero default rate.
Cheers
Susan
you?
"Siam" <topha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1169574935....@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
Siam
Do bank customers think that the bank has their money as a liquid
asset? When you go give $1 to the bank, they will keep a dime of that.
The other 90 cents is pumped back into the economy in the form of
loans.
Hopefully the bank is doing a good job of loaning so that they will in
an excess return beyond the cost of capital.
The only thing protecting occassional bank runs is the FDIC. Nobody
has to worry.
When you give your money to a gambling company in the third world there
will be a risk. It isn't surprising that this happened. When online
poker first started, I went with PlanetPoker soley because of Mike Caro
and Roy Cooke. It wasn't a guarantee, but I figured they had a lot to
lose if their name was sullied. The Boyds obviously didn't care about
their reputation.
Cheers
Randy Hudson
David Nicoson <bigd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I don't think anyone would tolerate a B&M without cash on hand to cover
> the players' money.
The Crystal Park, October 1997?
--
Randy Hudson
Gary Carson
On Jan 23 2007 6:26 PM, Randy Hudson wrote:
> In article <1169559181....@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com>,
> David Nicoson wrote:
>
> > I don't think anyone would tolerate a B&M without cash on hand to cover
> > the players' money.
>
> The Crystal Park, October 1997?
And it pissed of their customers so bad that nobody plays there anymore.
>
> --
> Randy Hudson
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
Michael Sullivan
> If everyone tried to take out all their money from a bank at once, it
> wouldn't be there, even though it is your money.
It wouldn't be there *when you demanded it*, but it's there in some form
that might take a few days to a few months to recover.
> A poker site shouldn't keep all the player's money segregated
> necessarily either. They know the average refund per day and should
> keep a standard deviation of that to ensure that they have enough money
> to refund any player. The remainder could be used on short-term easily
> redeemable investments. That is exactly what my company does.
Short term easily redeemable investments would have been just dandy.
People wouldn't have gotten their money the day they closed, but the
money would have been there to pay them all (or at least most) of it
eventually.
That's not what they did. They took player deposits and used them pay
their overhead expenses. They had no investments to back up those
funds. The only investment to back them up was the value of their own
company.
If a bank did that and it could be proven, the directors responsible
would likely go to jail for fraud.
Michael
Michael Sullivan
> Do bank customers think that the bank has their money as a liquid
> asset? When you go give $1 to the bank, they will keep a dime of that.
> The other 90 cents is pumped back into the economy in the form of
> loans.
Right, loans, which have a value and can be sold on the open market if
necessary.
I'm well aware that banks don't ever have enough actual cash on hand to
handle a run on all their assets, but they don't take that money and use
it for salaries or operating expenses. They use it strictly for
investments, which are expected to earn income or increase in value.
Even when a bank goes under - if it wasn't doing anything shady,
customers would get back 80-100% of their money within a few months (or
as soon as the regulators released it).
There is a *huge* difference between investing deposits and using them
to pay expenses.
Michael
Gary Carson
On Jan 24 2007 10:31 PM, Michael Sullivan wrote:
> Siam wrote:
>
> > If everyone tried to take out all their money from a bank at once, it
> > wouldn't be there, even though it is your money.
>
> It wouldn't be there *when you demanded it*, but it's there in some form
> that might take a few days to a few months to recover.
Yes, the assets are not used to cover other liabilities, the assets are still
there.
>
> That's not what they did. They took player deposits and used them pay
> their overhead expenses. They had no investments to back up those
> funds. The only investment to back them up was the value of their own
> company.
>
> If a bank did that and it could be proven, the directors responsible
> would likely go to jail for fraud.
Some S and L directors did go to jail. Not enough of them, but some.
They went to jail because they invested in inflated assets, mostly fraudulant
real estate loans. Some went to jail for investing in fraudulant drilling loans
(where the collatoral value was inflated).
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
Siam
On Jan 24, 8:31 pm, m...@panix.com (Michael Sullivan) wrote:
> Siam <tophatb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Do bank customers think that the bank has their money as a liquid
> > asset? When you go give $1 to the bank, they will keep a dime of that.
> > The other 90 cents is pumped back into the economy in the form of
> > loans.Right, loans, which have a value and can be sold on the open market if
> necessary.
>
> I'm well aware that banks don't ever have enough actual cash on hand to
> handle a run on all their assets, but they don't take that money and use
> it for salaries or operating expenses. They use it strictly for
> investments, which are expected to earn income or increase in value.
> Even when a bank goes under - if it wasn't doing anything shady,
> customers would get back 80-100% of their money within a few months (or
> as soon as the regulators released it).
>
> There is a *huge* difference between investing deposits and using them
> to pay expenses.
>
> Michael
I see your point Michael. There is a value to the loan that someone
else would purchase. Still, you deposit in the bank with no worries
because of the FDIC. Your money is backed by the government. Banks
are regulated.
I still don't have a big issue with them using player's deposits.
Smart business move, if they plan to be successful. They should always
have on hand 2x - 3x the maximum expected withdrawal just as a back-up.
Americans depositing money overseas in a quasi-legal activity and then
having issues? Surprised this hasn't happened more often. Buyer
beware.
Cheers
Gary Carson
On Jan 25 2007 4:29 PM, Siam wrote:
> On Jan 24, 8:31 pm, m...@panix.com (Michael Sullivan) wrote:
> > Siam wrote:
> > > Do bank customers think that the bank has their money as a liquid
> > > asset? When you go give $1 to the bank, they will keep a dime of that.
> > > The other 90 cents is pumped back into the economy in the form of
> > > loans.Right, loans, which have a value and can be sold on the open market
> > > if
> > necessary.
> >
> > I'm well aware that banks don't ever have enough actual cash on hand to
> > handle a run on all their assets, but they don't take that money and use
> > it for salaries or operating expenses. They use it strictly for
> > investments, which are expected to earn income or increase in value.
> > Even when a bank goes under - if it wasn't doing anything shady,
> > customers would get back 80-100% of their money within a few months (or
> > as soon as the regulators released it).
> >
> > There is a *huge* difference between investing deposits and using them
> > to pay expenses.
> >
> > Michael
>
> I see your point Michael. There is a value to the loan that someone
> else would purchase. Still, you deposit in the bank with no worries
> because of the FDIC. Your money is backed by the government. Banks
> are regulated.
There is also a huge overnight lending market between banks and the Fed Window
acts as lender of last resort for overnight cash needs for banks.
A run on a single bank is handled easily by the banking system so long as the
bank hasn't been engaging in fraud. It's a run on the banking system that might
cause a bank holiday.
>
> I still don't have a big issue with them using player's deposits.
> Smart business move, if they plan to be successful. They should always
> have on hand 2x - 3x the maximum expected withdrawal just as a back-up.
I have a big problem with using player deposits as basic investment capital for
the company -- using those deposits for working capital. That's a huge fraud.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
da pickle
> I still don't have a big issue with them using player's deposits.
> Smart business move, if they plan to be successful. They should always
> have on hand 2x - 3x the maximum expected withdrawal just as a back-up.
The problem is the word "using." If the site deposits the player accounts
and makes interest on the money and keeps the interest, that would be
acceptable. (And even under your assumptions, 2 or 3 times the " maximum
expected" withdrawal is totally unacceptable.)
Siam
On Jan 25, 3:52 pm, Gary Carson <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.edu>
wrote:
>
> > I still don't have a big issue with them using player's deposits.
> > Smart business move, if they plan to be successful. They should always
> > have on hand 2x - 3x the maximum expected withdrawal just as a back-up.I have a big problem with using player deposits as basic investment capital for
> the company -- using those deposits for working capital. That's a huge fraud.
Fraud?! At my company, it is all cash. We often receive money ahead
of delievery of services. It is used for everything and we don't
segregate it. All in the same checking and/or savings account.
Cheers
Siam
On Jan 25, 3:57 pm, "da pickle" <jcpickels@(nospam)hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Siam"
>
> > I still don't have a big issue with them using player's deposits.
> > Smart business move, if they plan to be successful. They should always
> > have on hand 2x - 3x the maximum expected withdrawal just as a back-up.The problem is the word "using." If the site deposits the player accounts
> and makes interest on the money and keeps the interest, that would be
> acceptable. (And even under your assumptions, 2 or 3 times the " maximum
> expected" withdrawal is totally unacceptable.)
2 to 3x the maximum expected is HUGE. Probably 5-6 standard
deviations. And if the expected withdrawals exceeded that, it would
certainly be due to one customer which they could delay a few days to
bring in more cash or borrow the money.
I think it is prudent to use excess customer's deposits to grow the
business. It is an interest free loan. Simple mathematical formula to
determine how much money they need to have on hand.
Worst thing would be perception that you don't have money. That is
what started to unravel Pokerspot. They should have done everything
they could to pay players. It would have been worth paying 100%
interest to avoid defaulting players.
All in all, it is a shame. Pokerspot was definitely at the forefront
of the poker boom. If it could have lasted a couple of more years, it
would have been one of the players. A lot of trailblazers
unfortunately go broke while the laggards actually benefit.
Cheers
Will in New Haven
On Jan 25, 5:29 pm, "Siam" <tophatb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 24, 8:31 pm, m...@panix.com (Michael Sullivan) wrote:
>
>
>
> > Siam <tophatb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Do bank customers think that the bank has their money as a liquid
> > > asset? When you go give $1 to the bank, they will keep a dime of that.
> > > The other 90 cents is pumped back into the economy in the form of
> > > loans.Right, loans, which have a value and can be sold on the open market if
> > necessary.
>
> > I'm well aware that banks don't ever have enough actual cash on hand to
> > handle a run on all their assets, but they don't take that money and use
> > it for salaries or operating expenses. They use it strictly for
> > investments, which are expected to earn income or increase in value.
> > Even when a bank goes under - if it wasn't doing anything shady,
> > customers would get back 80-100% of their money within a few months (or
> > as soon as the regulators released it).
>
> > There is a *huge* difference between investing deposits and using them
> > to pay expenses.
>
> > MichaelI see your point Michael. There is a value to the loan that someone
> else would purchase. Still, you deposit in the bank with no worries
> because of the FDIC. Your money is backed by the government. Banks
> are regulated.
>
> I still don't have a big issue with them using player's deposits.
> Smart business move, if they plan to be successful. They should always
> have on hand 2x - 3x the maximum expected withdrawal just as a back-up.
>
> Americans depositing money overseas in a quasi-legal activity and then
> having issues? Surprised this hasn't happened more often. Buyer
> beware.
>
> Cheers
I'll just call that moronic, since I don't want to be confrontational.
Engaging in risky behavior does NOT excuse someone who steals from you.
It is true that the victims in this case have less reason to be shocked
by what happened but they still have reason to be angry.
Your attitude reminds me of the "If you didn't wear a short dress he
woudln't have raped you argument." It's a non-starter.
I have spent a fair part of my business life beyond legal recourse.
There are reasons to behave honorably when no punishment is likely. One
of them is honor.
Will in New Haven
--
"I didn't know that other guy was a cop
I guess I didn't care,
Sometimes you gotta act like you got a pair."
Slaid Cleaves - "Drinkin' Days" off Wishbones