The Ultimate (Bet) Scam
UltimateScam
opened. I have never actually played in a real life poker room until recently.
I was one of the fortunate ones to win a trip to Aruba and play in the UB
tournaments. Let me just say that it was truly great being in Aruba. A great
place to vacation.
Disclaimer* Some of my numbers and information may not be 100% accurate as I am
going from memory.
For those of you that don't know, UB had a promotion as part of their
association with the World Poker Tour. They ran the promotion through the
poker site, which sent 86 (#?) players to Aruba to play for the $25,000 seat in
the WPT. They offered a tournament in Aruba for the other 26 places, so that
100 amateurs were playing in the tournament. They only got 10, so there were
only 96 that actually played for the seat.
In summary: 86 players from UB, 10 players that qualified while in Aruba.
These 96 players played down to one player, who would then play a "pro" head up
for the $25,000 WPT seat.
Here is where the scam comes in.
One of the stipulations of the WPT is that the event be a $300,000 prize pool.
So UB decided that they could be a part of the WPT without actually paying this
money.
How did they do it?
They set up this nice little tournament structure where the amateurs would play
for $100,000 ($50,000 for first) and the 9 pros would play for $250,000. These
9 pros all have some kind of connection to Ultimate Bet.
The 9 pros played a 1 table tournament to see who would play the amateur. The
100 amateurs (actually only 96) played down to 1 to see who would play the pro.
Then the two of them played heads up for the seat.
Phil Gordon was the pro that won.
As am amateur who was excited to go to Aruba and play, and who was subsequently
very disappointed when this scam was revealed, here are the questions that I
would like answered:
1. If the prize pool had to be $300,000, why would UB want to give
$250,000 of that to a pro?
2. Why wouldn't they want that money filtered back to the site to be
played?
3. Why wouldn't it be open to all pros', not just the ones associated with
UB?
4. Why wouldn't they charge these "pros" to enter this tournament?
5. Why did Devilfish had to be talked into coming to Aruba after he
initially said he wouldn't come? After all, he was on a $250,000 freeroll
right?
6. Why did Howard Lederer elect to play with the amateurs ($50,000 first
place) if he would have been on a $250,000 freeroll as a pro?
7. Why did Daniel Negreaneu cut off all ties with Ultimate Bet when he
found out about this scam?
8. Why is this UB tournament the only tournament on the WPT trail that
isn't an open event?
9. Why is this the only event where everyone playing did not have a chance
to win all of the money?
This whole thing stinks, and it stinks real bad. The way I see it, UB saw an
opportunity for maximum exposure for a minimum price. All of the other casinos
affiliated with the WPT have paid out the prize pool as they were supposed to.
All of the other events are open events where anyone can buy in and win their
share of the prize pool. All of them except UB. To get into this tournament,
you had to qualify online or own part of the site. If you did qualify online
then you could only play for $50,000.
If you owned part of the site or had anything to do with the site as a pro you
could play in a freeroll for $250,000. Kind of nice if you can get it huh?
Lastly, I would like to hear from Daniel Negreaneu about his thoughts on this
tournament. I heard that his falling out with UB was because of this SCAM.
Daniel, would you have been paid the money if you won? Can you share any
information about this?
Also, since I have seen Phil Gordon on here, can you tell us if you were paid
the $250,000.
I bet if you gave all of the pro players a lie detector test asking them if
they would have received the money had they won that most of them would fail.
Maybe one or two could fool the test, but not all of them.
To end this long winded post, my final conclusion is that all of the hours I
have spent online at UB have been a scam, and I will be taking my business
elsewhere.
I will be interested to see how the WPT handles this. My guess is that when
they realize the negative impact it could have that they might just toss this
tournament out of the schedule. That would be the most logical choice and
allow for the most damage control.
AlenaL
You got a FREE trip to Aruba and you're complaining?
ha
_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com
Stacy, Rodney and Josie Black
only shows me he has no initial negative bias. If what he says is true the
whole thing stinks, and UB should be ashamed of themselves!
"AlenaL" <al1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3db380cb$0$50574$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
Jeff V
your whining about was clearly stated in the rules. If you won the 50k
would it still be a scam? To quote Jr Soprano- "You're like the woman with
a Virginia ham under each arm, crying cause she's got no bread." Next time
read the rules or don't play for a free trip.
_________________________________________________________________
yoyojemojo
news:3db3862a$0$50591$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
> To quote Jr Soprano- "You're like the woman with
> a Virginia ham under each arm, crying cause she's got no bread."
I can see her point. You can't just eat ham straight. But what she should
do, is swap one of the hams for a loaf of bread, or sell one of the hams and
buy two loaves. Then she could have a nice sandwich.
yoyo
I bet the main reason the police keep people away from a plane crash is they
don't want anybody walking in and lying down in the crash stuff, then, when
somebody comes up, act like they just woke up and go, "What was THAT?!"
- Jack Handy
UltimateScam
>From: "Jeff V" anon...@yahoo.com
>Date: 10/20/2002 9:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3db3862a$0$50591$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com>
>
>Boo Hoo. I also won a trip to Aruba, and thought it was a great time. What
>your whining about was clearly stated in the rules. If you won the 50k
>would it still be a scam? To quote Jr Soprano- "You're like the woman with
>a Virginia ham under each arm, crying cause she's got no bread." Next time
>read the rules or don't play for a free trip.
Please be so kind as to reread my post and you will see that I am not
complaining about a free trip or the $50,000. I enjoyed myself and am grateful
for the opportunity.
What I am complaining about is the scam that they pulled with regards to the
WPT.
They advetised a $350,000 prize pool, yet I have reason to believe they didnt
pay but $100,000.
If they did indeed pay the $250,000 that they say they paid to the pros, then I
want to know:
1. Why did Howard Lederer decline this $250,000 freeroll and play with the
amateurs for a chance to win $50,000?
2. Why did Devilfish decline to come there until he was talked into it when he
was on a $250,000 freeroll?
3. Why would they give $250,000 of a $350,000 prize pool to 1 of 9 pros that
have an association with the site?
4. Why did Daniel N. clean himself of this site after hearing about this scam?
To me it looks and smells like a scam. Because of this information I am going
to treat it as a scam unless Ultimate Bet explains to me why these things were
done and shows proof that Phil Gordon was paid $250,000.
BabybackRibs
Bing
<johnvinc...@smartchat.net.au> wrote:
> > To quote Jr Soprano- "You're like the woman with
> > a Virginia ham under each arm, crying cause she's got no bread."
>
> I can see her point. You can't just eat ham straight.
Mmm. Ham.
-- Bing Monopoly Expansion Set
Visit us at http://www.paxentertainment.com
Botty
"free" trip and such just to be nice? They aren't stupid like many of you
fishie losers. They've got a plan: we promise them a way to easy money and
fame and then they won't look as we rob them of their asses. Just one
thing; it's not just UB, it's all the poker sites. All scam. And I'm not
even the on-line-site-bashing-troll, and I see that.
DaBotty
Irish Mike
$250,000 of that to a pro? "
I know very little about online gambling sites. However, there is a
tournament scam that goes like this; you run a tournament and advertise a
big payout. Then bring in some ringers and put them in the tournament for
free. Odds are one of them will win (especially if they are all in on it).
The ringer wins and gets paid an agreed upon amount that is a lot less than
the advertised amount. The amateurs never know the difference. I believe
you said the professional players all had ties to this online gambling
website. Just a thought.
Irish Mike
"UltimateScam" <ultima...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021020235736...@mb-cg.aol.com...
mb
send an email to their support (or management) and ask these questions. Or
you can send them directly to Phil Hellmouth.
On Oct 20 2002 11:57PM, UltimateScam wrote:
_________________________________________________________________
DaveM
>UB does not usually answer questions on this newsgroup. I suggest that you
>send an email to their support (or management) and ask these questions. Or
>you can send them directly to Phil Hellmouth.
Are you just suggesting the original poster does this or anyone who's
interested to hear the answer to the questions posed?
Do you have any connection with the site, btw?
DaveM
mb
I guess anybody who wants to know the answers can/should write to UB. NO -
I have no connection with the site, just making an observation that UB
does not post here.
Newgca
>pool.
>
>So UB decided that they could be a part of the WPT without actually paying
>this
>money.
>
>How did they do it?
in secret agreement with world poker tour? with others knowing?
Russ Georgiev
Danielnegreanu
>From: ultima...@aol.com (UltimateScam)
>7. Why did Daniel Negreaneu cut off all ties with Ultimate Bet when he
>found out about this scam?
I didn't say that. What I said was, there were several reasons (once of
which became very obvious later) that I cut off ties with UB. I never went
into detail, as I didn't think it would be appropriate to discuss here on RGP
(I still don't).
I also mentioned that I wasn't happy that the event was a closed event,
despite being invited myself.
I have been informed and assured though, that next year's event WILL be open
to all.
>Lastly, I would like to hear from Daniel Negreaneu about his thoughts on this
>tournament. I heard that his falling out with UB was because of this SCAM.
As I said earlier, there were several reasons. I spoke to some people
involved with UB well before the Aruba tournament, and informed them that I
would not be attending the Aruba tournament. I also discussed privately with
them the reasons why I no longer wanted to be associated with their site.
It was a civilized conversation, and all was handled respectfully. It was
also a private conversation, that will remain private.
>Daniel, would you have been paid the money if you won? Can you share any
>information about this?
I couldn't have won? I didn't attend :-)
Daniel Negreanu
kidp...@hotmail.com
CanadaKev
> I am an online poker player who has played exclusively at Ultimate Bet since it
> opened. I have never actually played in a real life poker room until recently.
>
> I was one of the fortunate ones to win a trip to Aruba and play in the UB
> tournaments. Let me just say that it was truly great being in Aruba. A great
> place to vacation.
No way can I argue with this statement.
> Disclaimer* Some of my numbers and information may not be 100% accurate as I am
> going from memory.
I'd like to know who this UltimateScam is. First of all your details
are far from the truth. Things you've mentioned would be difficult to
mistake if you were truly there. I was there.
> For those of you that don't know, UB had a promotion as part of their
> association with the World Poker Tour. They ran the promotion through the
> poker site, which sent 86 (#?) players to Aruba to play for the $25,000 seat in
> the WPT. They offered a tournament in Aruba for the other 26 places, so that
> 100 amateurs were playing in the tournament. They only got 10, so there were
> only 96 that actually played for the seat.
> In summary: 86 players from UB, 10 players that qualified while in Aruba.
UB offered 86 free trips to Aruba. 4 players won 2 trips and a 5th
player managed to win 3 trips. (Way to go Perry) this puts the main
event to 80 players with 20 to qualify down in Aruba. The "Last
Chance" tourney held in Aruba started with 26 players. As it turns
out all these 26 made it to the main event as there were nearly 10
players who had won trips and never showed up on the Island. This
last chance was my only problem with the whole week in Aruba, (except
maybe for my bad play). My problem was that this 26 player field
included some well knownand also pro players. Some notables were
Howard Lederer as you mentioned, Barry Shulman, Men the Master and
Kathy Liebert. The players in the last chance were supposed to have
participated in minimum of 4 online qualifiers, I'm yet to be
convinced these 4 met that requirement.
That is my only beef with the whole trip.
The field was now set at 96 as you mention.
> These 96 players played down to one player, who would then play a "pro" head up
> for the $25,000 WPT seat.
>
> Here is where the scam comes in.
>
> One of the stipulations of the WPT is that the event be a $300,000 prize pool.
>
> So UB decided that they could be a part of the WPT without actually paying this
> money.
I see no scam yet, they need a 300,000 prizepool and have made it
375,000.
And what the heck are you talking about not paying this money?? Do you
know someone who didn't get their winnings from Aruba??
> How did they do it?
>
> They set up this nice little tournament structure where the amateurs would play
> for $100,000 ($50,000 for first) and the 9 pros would play for $250,000. These
> 9 pros all have some kind of connection to Ultimate Bet.
Turns out that there were actually 8 pros playing it out.
> The 9 pros played a 1 table tournament to see who would play the amateur. The
> 100 amateurs (actually only 96) played down to 1 to see who would play the pro.
>
> Then the two of them played heads up for the seat.
>
> Phil Gordon was the pro that won.
>
> As am amateur who was excited to go to Aruba and play, and who was subsequently
> very disappointed when this scam was revealed, here are the questions that I
> would like answered:
>
> 1. If the prize pool had to be $300,000, why would UB want to give
> $250,000 of that to a pro?
UB had some options here. First of all it was very clear this was the
prizepool structure long before we all qualified to go down there.
Many pros do infact play on UB. They could have offered the whole
prizepool to us amateurs, but then the trip would have been just that,
us amateurs. Certainly they put up the bigger prizepool to the pros
to get them down to aruba with us, so we could all see, meet them and
hopefully learn a thing or two about the real poker world. I think
UB's decision was a well-informed one and worked out great for almost
everyone.
> 2. Why wouldn't they want that money filtered back to the site to be
> played?
Plenty of money will be going back to the site. Not only did they
give out a $100,000 main event pool, but each of the 8 final tables
for qualifiers had $5,000 pools. This, in my opinion is plenty of
money going back into the site.
> 3. Why wouldn't it be open to all pros', not just the ones associated with
> UB?
The way I see it, these pros were brought down there by UB, just the
way we were. They had a few requirements as part of some agreement,
such as the seminar they gave us in the poker room one morning. These
pros were there for the prizepool, but UB wanted them there to make it
a better time for us, which I think it did. Other pros also are
affiliated with other online sites.
> 4. Why wouldn't they charge these "pros" to enter this tournament?
Again, the whole appeal to us amateurs of just being around these top
notch pros. The prizepool made it worth their time.
> 5. Why did Devilfish had to be talked into coming to Aruba after he
> initially said he wouldn't come? After all, he was on a $250,000 freeroll
> right?
> 6. Why did Howard Lederer elect to play with the amateurs ($50,000 first
> place) if he would have been on a $250,000 freeroll as a pro?
Howard did not elect anything other than to play with the amateurs
instead of staying on the sidelines. The pro event seemed to have
their field set before we all got to Aruba. He simply wasn't part of
the field.
> 7. Why did Daniel Negreaneu cut off all ties with Ultimate Bet when he
> found out about this scam?
Im not certain but quite sure that YOUR "scam" theory had nothing to
do with Daniel's recent falling out with UB.
> 8. Why is this UB tournament the only tournament on the WPT trail that
> isn't an open event?
Although it is true you couldn't just buy in for this event, it was
still open to everyone. Anyone could have played at UB and qualified
for an Aruba trip.
> 9. Why is this the only event where everyone playing did not have a chance
> to win all of the money?
It was a different format, one that was interesting and fun. The
winning pro facing off heads up against our amateur winner. I thought
it worked great.
> This whole thing stinks, and it stinks real bad. The way I see it, UB saw an
> opportunity for maximum exposure for a minimum price. All of the other casinos
> affiliated with the WPT have paid out the prize pool as they were supposed to.
This is absolutely absurd. First of all UB DID pay what they were
supposed to. And most impotantly this will be the only freeroll
tournament on the WPT circuit. Every other event has their prizepool
made up entirely of the players buy-ins. Here UB put up the entire
prizepool, great for us and great for the game.
In case you didn't know this is the whole plan behind the WPT. To
gain major corporate sponsorships, so that the players won't have to
put up buyins to fund the entire prizepool. Also, after seeing it in
action, I think the WPT will work many wonders for the game. Thank
you to Steve Lipscomb and the crew, I can't wait to watch the series.
> All of the other events are open events where anyone can buy in and win their
> share of the prize pool. All of them except UB. To get into this tournament,
> you had to qualify online or own part of the site. If you did qualify online
> then you could only play for $50,000.
> If you owned part of the site or had anything to do with the site as a pro you
> could play in a freeroll for $250,000. Kind of nice if you can get it huh?
> Lastly, I would like to hear from Daniel Negreaneu about his thoughts on this
> tournament. I heard that his falling out with UB was because of this SCAM.
> Daniel, would you have been paid the money if you won? Can you share any
> information about this?
>
> Also, since I have seen Phil Gordon on here, can you tell us if you were paid
> the $250,000.
A deal was made.
> I bet if you gave all of the pro players a lie detector test asking them if
> they would have received the money had they won that most of them would fail.
> Maybe one or two could fool the test, but not all of them.
What is leading you to believe they wouldn't be paid out?? I think
you are very wrong.
> To end this long winded post, my final conclusion is that all of the hours I
> have spent online at UB have been a scam, and I will be taking my business
> elsewhere.
You are ridiculous.
> I will be interested to see how the WPT handles this. My guess is that when
> they realize the negative impact it could have that they might just toss this
> tournament out of the schedule. That would be the most logical choice and
> allow for the most damage control.
The WPT will show the final four players in both the amateur event and
then the pro event. This will be followed up by the amateur sending
Phil Gordon to the showers, as you will all eventually see. I think
this format will be a good one to watch, and interesting to the
viewers as it is unlike the rest of the WPT events.
Ultimate Bet did a great job, and the WPT show should attract many new
players once they learn that they could be sent on a similar trip to
meet and play with the pros. I also think many of them would be very
greatful for the experience, just like I am.
Thanks UB.
Kevin Malarek
CanadaKev
(By any chance was this posted by cord??)
NWBurbsCouple
I have. So far 2 different support folks say they aren't qualified to answer
the questions and have passed them on to a superior. I'll let you know what
they say.
Jeff V
_________________________________________________________________
Mike Sexton
event be a $300,000 prize pool."
It may be that way next year, but this year there are two events on the
WPT that will have a prize pool of less than $300,000. The recently
concluded Costa Rica Classic had a total prize pool of $234,325 and the
special event at the Commerce Casino (Feb 2003) - a freeroll to
participants courtesy of the WPT - will have a prize pool of $200,000.
(This event is for former World Champions, members of the Poker Hall of
Fame, winners of WPT events, invited celebrities, a sponsor exemption for
each WPT Charter Member, and for all those who have paid their $25,000
entry into the championship final at Bellagio next April.)
Mike Sexton
On Oct 20 2002 8:57PM, UltimateScam wrote:
_________________________________________________________________
CanadaKev
It was still an awesome time.
Kev
res16xkk
the truth? Just the plain old fashioned truth. No white lies, no
protecting Phil Hellmuth, just spit it out or don't bother insulting us with
that crap that you call a response.
Shawn Nelsen
"Danielnegreanu" <danieln...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021022043736...@mb-cv.aol.com...
Danielnegreanu
>Wow, what a bunch of double talk, do you or any of your cronies EVER speak
>the truth? Just the plain old fashioned truth. No white lies, no
>protecting Phil Hellmuth, just spit it out or don't bother insulting us with
>that crap that you call a response.
I understand your frustration. For the most part, I consider myself a pretty
stand up guy, but there are certain issues that I just don't want to get
involved in.
For the record: I'm an not involved with UB in any way, shape or form. I
have never signed any endorsement contracts with them, nor have I ever recieved
any money from them. I was offered a free trip to Aruba, which I DECLINED.
I have no good reason to defend UB, and that's not what I'm doing here. I'm
simply taking the fifth...ok?
Daniel Negreanu
kidp...@hotmail.com