OT: Trivia Question (US Politics/Racism)
BillB
simple, objective metric to determine which US state has the deepest racist
sentiment toward African Americans.
I thought one way to look at it might be to compare support between John
Kerry and Barack Obama in their respective presidential elections. It was
only four years apart, they had similar platforms in similar places on the
political spectrum, and Obama was clearly the more skilled, likable
politician. So you'd expect Obama's support to go up over Kerry's in most
cases.
So what do you think? Which three states had the biggest decline between
voters who *would* vote for Kerry, but who *would not* vote for Obama?
No googling!
BillB
"BillB" <bo...@shaw1.ca> wrote in message
news:tZo3m.27669$ml7....@newsfe18.iad...
> So what do you think? Which three states had the biggest decline between
> voters who *would* vote for Kerry, but who *would not* vote for Obama?
white voters
mo_charles
the american black community is predominantly christian and very anti-gay.
just because they hate gays doesn't mean they voted for obama just
because he's black. this is a very interesting post. i can't wait to see
the "solution"!
mo_charles
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BillB
"mo_charles" <harry...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1sn1i6x...@recgroups.com...
> the american black community is predominantly christian and very anti-gay.
> just because they hate gays doesn't mean they voted for obama just
> because he's black. this is a very interesting post. i can't wait to see
> the "solution"!
>
> mo_charles
I'm not following you. Can you be more specific? What major differences are
there between Kerry and Obama that would cause a given voting block to
support Kerry, but abandon Obama? Maybe I am overlooking something.
brewmaster
wtf are you talking about? Obama was elected because white people voted
for him. Kerry was not elected because white people didn't vote for him.
The only talk about racism lately was all started by you.
Brew
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BillB
"brewmaster" <a1...@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
news:jpo1i6x...@recgroups.com...
> wtf are you talking about? Obama was elected because white people voted
> for him. Kerry was not elected because white people didn't vote for him.
> The only talk about racism lately was all started by you.
I think what I am talking about is pretty clear. Maybe you read it too fast.
Read what I wrote again, put on your thinking cap, and give me three
guesses. If you can't figure out a logical guess strategy, just pick 3
random states. You never know, you may win a prize.
garycarson
During the Obama election gay rights was very much in the news,
particularly California. Not so much 4 years previously.
So a lot of people who had voted for Kerry might have not voted for Obama,
not because of the difference in positionos of Kerry and Obama but because
of the difference in overall prominance of the issue.
Your mental map of the voting process is so simplistic as to be pretty
much worthless.
_____________________________________________________________________�
BillB
"garycarson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:48p1i6x...@recgroups.com...
> Your mental map of the voting process is so simplistic as to be pretty
> much worthless.
Fair enough. Any guesses though?
garycarson
> With all this discussion about racism lately, I was trying to think of a
> simple, objective metric to determine which US state has the deepest racist
> sentiment toward African Americans.
>
> I thought one way to look at it might be to compare support between John
> Kerry and Barack Obama in their respective presidential elections. It was
> only four years apart, they had similar platforms in similar places on the
> political spectrum, and Obama was clearly the more skilled, likable
> politician. So you'd expect Obama's support to go up over Kerry's in most
> cases.
This looks like race-baiting but if you're serious about this you might
want to look back at some old posts at this blog
http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/mlm/
I doubt he directly addresses your question but he does have some
interesting state-by-state political analysis. It's a blog by a guy at
Columbia with appointments in both political science and statistics. Top
notch analysis.
>
> So what do you think? Which three states had the biggest decline between
> voters who *would* vote for Kerry, but who *would not* vote for Obama?
>
> No googling!
------�
Irish Mike
> simple, objective metric to determine which US state has the deepest
> racist sentiment toward African Americans.
First, you need to start using the correct terminology. African American
refers to Africans (born in Africa) who are now American citizens.
Americans of African descent (which is what 95% of the blacks in America
are) refers to American citizens, born in America whose ancestors came from
Africa. Second, if you really want to look at racism in America you need to
look at the racial prejudice of Americans of African descent towards whites,
latinos and (true, born in Africa) African Americans. When race cards are
played in America, it is usually blacks doing the dealing. I live in an
area with a large African American (Americans born in Africa) contingent. I
can absolutely guarantee you that the local blacks (Americans of African
descent) and the African Americans (born in Africa) virtually hate each
other. They fight like cats and dogs and there have been a number of
murders between the groups. In almost every case, by the way, it was local
blacks killing African Americans. Bottom-line bucko, if you are going to
presume to lecture Americans on racism, then you need to look at the whole
picture.
Also, as long as you're giving racism lectures, I never did see your
response to the examples of racism I saw by "white" Canadians toward Indian
and Inuit people living in Canada. You know - people who live in glass
houses throwing rocks and all that.
Irish Mike
garycarson
Seven?
BillB
"garycarson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:kfp1i6x...@recgroups.com...
> On Jul 3 2009 10:55 AM, BillB wrote:
>
>> With all this discussion about racism lately, I was trying to think of a
>> simple, objective metric to determine which US state has the deepest
>> racist
>> sentiment toward African Americans.
>>
>> I thought one way to look at it might be to compare support between John
>> Kerry and Barack Obama in their respective presidential elections. It was
>> only four years apart, they had similar platforms in similar places on
>> the
>> political spectrum, and Obama was clearly the more skilled, likable
>> politician. So you'd expect Obama's support to go up over Kerry's in most
>> cases.
>
> This looks like race-baiting but if you're serious about this you might
> want to look back at some old posts at this blog
>
> http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/mlm/
>
> I doubt he directly addresses your question but he does have some
> interesting state-by-state political analysis. It's a blog by a guy at
> Columbia with appointments in both political science and statistics. Top
> notch analysis.
Thank for the link. It does look like a very interesting blog.
Just for the record, this is definitely not race-baiting!
Surely you're not telling me you'd just pick three states randomly if you
were picking for money. What states would you guess and why?
BillB
"Irish Mike" <ace...@att.net> wrote in message
news:kLp3m.1979$8r....@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Also, as long as you're giving racism lectures, I never did see your
> response to the examples of racism I saw by "white" Canadians toward
> Indian and Inuit people living in Canada. You know - people who live in
> glass houses throwing rocks and all that.
Mike, I already promised you a scathing review of Canada's shameful racist
history. I'm working on it, OK? How many words do you want?
The problem is, if it has Canada in the title, nobody will bother to read
it.
garycarson
> "BillB" <bo...@shaw1.ca> wrote in message
> news:tZo3m.27669$ml7....@newsfe18.iad...
> > With all this discussion about racism lately, I was trying to think of a
> > simple, objective metric to determine which US state has the deepest
> > racist sentiment toward African Americans.
>
> First, you need to start using the correct terminology. African American
> refers to Africans (born in Africa) who are now American citizens.
What do you call someone born an American citizen, but born in Africa, who
is now a French citizen?
susan
> On Jul 3 2009 11:48 AM, Irish Mike wrote:
>
>> "BillB" <bo...@shaw1.ca> wrote in message
>> news:tZo3m.27669$ml7....@newsfe18.iad...
>> > With all this discussion about racism lately, I was trying to think of
>> > a
>> > simple, objective metric to determine which US state has the deepest
>> > racist sentiment toward African Americans.
>>
>> First, you need to start using the correct terminology. African American
>> refers to Africans (born in Africa) who are now American citizens.
>
> What do you call someone born an American citizen, but born in Africa, who
> is now a French citizen?
Obama?
FellKnight
> On Jul 3 2009 11:48 AM, Irish Mike wrote:
>
> > "BillB" <bo...@shaw1.ca> wrote in message
> > news:tZo3m.27669$ml7....@newsfe18.iad...
> > > With all this discussion about racism lately, I was trying to think of a
> > > simple, objective metric to determine which US state has the deepest
> > > racist sentiment toward African Americans.
> >
> > First, you need to start using the correct terminology. African American
> > refers to Africans (born in Africa) who are now American citizens.
>
> What do you call someone born an American citizen, but born in Africa, who
> is now a French citizen?
A frog.
Fell
i kid, i kid!
-------�
da pickle
> Just for the record, this is definitely not race-baiting!
>
> Surely you're not telling me you'd just pick three states randomly if you
> were picking for money. What states would you guess and why?
He already picked seven ... give him his prize.
johnny_t
the progressive vote in the state and whether it goes down.
Huh.
In science class did you determine the sex of frogs by drinking orange soda?
johnny_t
Holy fuck dude. Are you just totally broken?
Yes, there is the white voter counter just outside each and every voting
booth capturing your racist leanings.
LOL.
BillB
"johnny_t" <nobo...@home.com> wrote in message
news:0095a9d8$0$3174$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
Have you ever heard of exit polls?
bo dark
This would say more about the Democratic party than a particular
state.Most people who didn't vote for Kerry didn't vote for Obama
either, and they would mostly be Repubs or Indepenents. I actually
think Obama received more crossover protest votes than Kerry could
have. I wouldn't venture to guess, but i'll comment when you spill the
beans.
bo dark
> "garycarson" <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
HAHAHA.
BillB
"bo dark" <tx1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:91d885a4-afbf-4e71...@24g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> This would say more about the Democratic party than a particular
> state.Most people who didn't vote for Kerry didn't vote for Obama
> either, and they would mostly be Repubs or Indepenents. I actually
> think Obama received more crossover protest votes than Kerry could
> have. I wouldn't venture to guess, but i'll comment when you spill the
> beans.
That's a good point.
BillB
"bo dark" <tx1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:91d885a4-afbf-4e71-8163-
> have. I wouldn't venture to guess, but i'll comment when you spill the
> beans.
Here's the answer:
http://www.pollster.com/blogs/white_vote_for_obama_in_the_st_1.php
"Three of the four deep south states dropped clearly below their 2004 white
support for Kerry. Georgia did not, matching it's 23% white support for the
Democrat in both years. Mississippi, the lowest state in 2004, shifted from
14% to 11%, while my home state of Alabama dropped from 19% to 10%, claiming
the prize for lowest white support for Obama of any state in the Union.
Louisiana went from 24% to 14%, the largest point drop of all. One other
southern state registered a notable drop, Arkansas fell from 36% white
support for Kerry to 30% for Obama."
Will in New Haven
What do you think of the Metis. I know you aren't old enough to have
burned towns during the Red River War but haven't you inherited any
guilt? Are there any Countryborn in your family tree?
Just to play your game: I guess you are asking us to name the three
states where Kerry did best compared to Obama without doing any
research. Here are some factors one would have to consider:
Kerry lost votes in the Mountain South because of his Catholicism.
Maybe not many in this day and age but some.
The states with a heavy Black vote probably didn't fit your profile.
So we want a southern state, not necessarily part of the old
Confederacy, with a smaller Black population. We kind of want to avoid
the mountain states. I would say Texas is a clear choice. Tennessee
has fewer Blacks but than most southern states but was once heavily
anti-Catholic, but I will have to go with Tennessee. Arkansas
resembles Tennessee in both respects, so I will go with those three. I
wish I had a clear picture of the % Black population in Missouri.
--
Will in New Haven
Will in New Haven
I misread your question. I was looking for where Obama lost the most
_total_ support compared to Kerry.
BillB
"Will in New Haven" <bill....@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in message
news:a8e49868-ae3a-42fe...@26g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
I didn't word it very well.
I do find it interesting how support from white voters dropped off
substantially in Mississippi and Arkansas, and precipitously in Alabama and
Louisiana. Personally, I think it's pretty clear that race is a factor.
Nationwide, these are the very states (among a few others) you'd expect to
be most affected by a change in the candidate's color. I'm sorry, I don't
think the numbers that match that expectation are a coincidence.
What is very interesting is how Georgia held its own and South Carolina went
the other way among white voters. I wonder what that means?
bo dark
Another study could be how many more black people registered to vote
in those states with a candidate running who identified as black.
BillB
"Will in New Haven" <bill....@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in message
news:ac1ef6e0-8bbf-4d0e...@y17g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> What do you think of the Metis. I know you aren't old enough to have
> burned towns during the Red River War but haven't you inherited any
> guilt? Are there any Countryborn in your family tree?
>
> Just to play your game: I guess you are asking us to name the three
> states where Kerry did best compared to Obama without doing any
> research. Here are some factors one would have to consider:
>
> Kerry lost votes in the Mountain South because of his Catholicism.
> Maybe not many in this day and age but some.
> The states with a heavy Black vote probably didn't fit your profile.
>
> So we want a southern state, not necessarily part of the old
> Confederacy, with a smaller Black population. We kind of want to avoid
> the mountain states. I would say Texas is a clear choice. Tennessee
> has fewer Blacks but than most southern states but was once heavily
> anti-Catholic, but I will have to go with Tennessee. Arkansas
> resembles Tennessee in both respects, so I will go with those three. I
> wish I had a clear picture of the % Black population in Missouri.
I don't buy into the guilt thing. Never have. I am not responsible for
anyone's actions but my own. I really don't identify with any race. I'm not
even sure where my ancestors came from and I really don't care. Maybe it's
that total lack of guilt that allows me to look at racism in ways that
clearly makes other people very uncomfortable. Do you see the way people
lash out at me when I bring it up? Look at johnny_t's diatribe in this
thread for example. Completely bizarro.
Even though I don't feel any personal guilt, I do see the the justice and
social value in leveling the playing field.
BillB
"bo dark" <tx1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:76a201d1-a784-4f02...@h11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> Another study could be how many more black people registered to vote
> in those states with a candidate running who identified as black.
Obama got something crazy like 96% of the black vote. Clearly, those were
not all objective assessments of the candidates' respective platforms and
qualifications. At this point in history, I cut black people a lot more
slack than white people for voting on race.
garycarson
If I recall a post from that blog I mentioned above correctly, the loss of
support was generally correlated with low income white popuilation.
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garycarson
That does not mean it's caused by racism.
Those are states with heavy concentrations of low income whites. Obama
lost votes among low income whites across all states. Republicans in
general have gained among that group since 2004.
>
> What is very interesting is how Georgia held its own and South Carolina went
> the other way among white voters. I wonder what that means?
Well, there's Atlanta, a city with actual jobs. South Carolina has it's
own recent history with racial politics.
Like I said before, your model (mental map) is just too superficial to
capture any meaningful observations about the underlying process.
Here's some links. Do some homework.
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BillB
"garycarson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:3c74i6x...@recgroups.com...
> That does not mean it's caused by racism.
>
> Those are states with heavy concentrations of low income whites. Obama
> lost votes among low income whites across all states. Republicans in
> general have gained among that group since 2004.
Good point. I still think race is a big factor.
I was just looking at another chart on the demographics of presidential
elections. One thing that jumped out at me was that as the percentage of
white voters in electorate has declined from 90% to 74% in the last 40
years, the percentage of whites voting Republican has gone from 40% to 55%.
Does that represent something of a hardening of positions along racial
lines? Will this trend continue as the US's minority population explodes
over the next 40 years?
Will in New Haven
> "garycarson" <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
Do not say "US's minority population explodes." It will please too
many of your readers.
Pepe Papon
wrote:
tee hee
--
~ Seth Jackson
MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
garycarson
> "garycarson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
> news:3c74i6x...@recgroups.com...
>
> > That does not mean it's caused by racism.
> >
> > Those are states with heavy concentrations of low income whites. Obama
> > lost votes among low income whites across all states. Republicans in
> > general have gained among that group since 2004.
>
> Good point. I still think race is a big factor.
>
> I was just looking at another chart on the demographics of presidential
> elections. One thing that jumped out at me was that as the percentage of
> white voters in electorate has declined from 90% to 74% in the last 40
> years, the percentage of whites voting Republican has gone from 40% to 55%.
> Does that represent something of a hardening of positions along racial
> lines?
No.
Low income whites have increased republican identification, high income
whites have decreased republican identification.
I don't know how to say this any better.
Your entire approach is simple minded, it's one dimensional, it assumes
you already know the one relevant variable.
Will this trend continue as the US's minority population explodes
> over the next 40 years?
Why would it?
BillB
"garycarson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:0t75i6x...@recgroups.com...
> On Jul 4 2009 11:38 AM, BillB wrote:
>
>> "garycarson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
>> news:3c74i6x...@recgroups.com...
>>
>> > That does not mean it's caused by racism.
>> >
>> > Those are states with heavy concentrations of low income whites. Obama
>> > lost votes among low income whites across all states. Republicans in
>> > general have gained among that group since 2004.
>>
>> Good point. I still think race is a big factor.
>>
>> I was just looking at another chart on the demographics of presidential
>> elections. One thing that jumped out at me was that as the percentage of
>> white voters in electorate has declined from 90% to 74% in the last 40
>> years, the percentage of whites voting Republican has gone from 40% to
>> 55%.
>> Does that represent something of a hardening of positions along racial
>> lines?
>
> No.
>
> Low income whites have increased republican identification, high income
> whites have decreased republican identification.
>
> I don't know how to say this any better.
>
> Your entire approach is simple minded, it's one dimensional, it assumes
> you already know the one relevant variable.
Your approach is one dimensional too. All you have pointed to is income as a
factor. The only difference is your explanation makes no sense. There aren't
enough low income people to explain the near halving of support in places
like Alabama and Louisiana.
> Will this trend continue as the US's minority population explodes
>> over the next 40 years?
>
> Why would it?
Fear.
Travel A
_total_ support compared to Kerry.
......................................................................................
Shhhh, BillB's race baiting.
Will in New Haven
I thought he was hunting Wabbits.
I wonder if he knew who the Metis and the Countryborn are before I
mentioned them.
There was a Japanese guy on one of the SF groups who veered off-topic
(although the subject was suggested by the novel we were discussing)
to make a three-post diatribe about how the Native Americans were
treated. When I brought up the Ainu it turns out he had (he claimed)
never heard of them.
--
Will in New Haven
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-cxtm6JJv4
Fleetwood Mac - “Songbird”
Irish Mike
> On Jul 4 2009 11:38 AM, BillB wrote:
>
>> "garycarson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
>> news:3c74i6x...@recgroups.com...
>>
Your blind hatred of Catholics reflects your ignorance, intolerance and
prejudice.
BTW, your anti-Catholic bigotry and persecution are nothing new. We've
faced it hundreds of times before from hate mongers like you, we always
prevail and we'll be here long after you're gone and forgotten.
Irish Mike
BillB
"Will in New Haven" <bill....@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote in message
news:5d84e9ae-e5cd-4bd7-b632-
> I wonder if he knew who the Metis and the Countryborn are before I
> mentioned them.
Are you being serious? It's always fascinating to discover just how out of
touch with reality you people really are. There seems to be no limit.
We learn about the Metis in second grade in Canada.
garycarson
Uh. Race and income would be 2 dimensions. Race, income, and geography
would be 3.
> The only difference is your explanation makes no sense.
I guess it wouldn't if you can't count to two.
>There aren't
> enough low income people to explain the near halving of support in places
> like Alabama and Louisiana.
LOL.
It's size and strength. Kind of like a gravity madel, mass and distance.
>
>
> > Will this trend continue as the US's minority population explodes
> >> over the next 40 years?
> >
> > Why would it?
>
> Fear.
Fear of what? Of the number 2?
------�
FellKnight
I think it may have been the third grade where I went to school ;)
Fell
--
"Don't underestimate Fell. He's a smart kid."
- Paul Popinjay, RGP, Nov 15, 2008
_______________________________________________________________________�
Irish Mike
BillB
"FellKnight" <jordand...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:lej5i6x...@recgroups.com...
> I think it may have been the third grade where I went to school ;)
I suppose I should go easier on them, but I just can't see myself going up
to any American, let alone one with an postgraduate university degree, and
asking, "Have you ever heard of Abraham Lincoln?"
garycarson
> "garycarson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
> news:c8j5i6x...@recgroups.com...
>
> Carson, you are a southern red neck anti-Catholic bigot and hate monger.
Is it true that priests wear dresses?
-------�
Irish Mike
Carson, you are a southern red neck anti-Catholic bigot and hate monger.
RazzO
with Gary saying whatever he wants to say on the Catholic Church?
I'm serious, this isn't a dis on you. You should stand behind your
countrymen.
Bottom line; if you can slam our president for trying to fix our
country that got screwed up, why can't Gary say what he says? It's
even documented. You don't even give the country a chance and your all
over the president like flies on a steaming rib roast, buddy.
Just don't make sense to me.
garycarson
> Mike, you feel the same way about American patriotism. What's wrong
> with Gary saying whatever he wants to say on the Catholic Church?
>
> I'm serious, this isn't a dis on you. You should stand behind your
> countrymen.
>
> Bottom line; if you can slam our president for trying to fix our
> country that got screwed up, why can't Gary say what he says? It's
> even documented. You don't even give the country a chance and your all
> over the president like flies on a steaming rib roast, buddy.
>
> Just don't make sense to me.
Did you know that the practice of cannabilism is a central article of
Catholic faith? -- it's actually a religious sacrament..
I'm not making that up.
Will in New Haven
> "FellKnight" <jordandevenp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
My experience on the Internet points to the Japanese, as a general
rule, not knowing about the Ainu. Or not admitting that they knew. It
points to Argentinians thinking there never WERE any non-whites in
Argentina, while the fact is that they killed most of them, drove out
most of the rest.
On the other paw, I didn't _really_ expect that kind of thing from
Canadians; I was just being snotty. Sorry.