First I will state the paradox and then I will give examples and
explain.
If two games are available the game with the better conditions will
attract the thinking players, making the game with inferior conditions
the better game.
If you are a regular at (fictional) Casino Downtown, where there is a
one-dollar jackpot drop and you hear that there is no drop at
(fictional) Casino Westside, your first reaction will be to change
games. If you do, you will probably see almost every thinking player
from Casino Downtown show up to play there over the next few sessions.
On the other hand, the dufoi who are the source of your profits,
continue to distribute themselves somewhat randomly. So seats at
Westside are taken up by whoneedsthems and games at Downtown are
better.
The 1/2 NL games at Foxwoods are on a time charge. The same games at
the Mohegan Sun are raked. Many of the self-consciously tight players,
some of them actually competent, are attracted to the raked games; the
bozos go to both on a random basis. Which games are going to be
better?
If there is a minor difference in conditions between two games, and
not non-poker conditions like hot waitresses or lighting, the better
players will go to the better conditions. You should go where the
better players are not going.
How many levels of thinking are we talking about here?
The better of the better thinkers will go to where the better thnkers are
not, the best will go to where the better of the better are not.
Russ would apply at least 7 levels here and end up staying home.
------
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Time matters.
If the two games are in place for long enough, they will reach
equilibrium, and it won't matter which game you go to.
Flip a coin.
--
Kenneth Sloan Kennet...@gmail.com
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/
An action player will show up in a game and the average pot size will
sky-rocket. Everyone and their cousin will get on the wait list. By the time
you're in, the guy that was making the game is usually gone. Now some other
game is the best game. Get in line. Repeat forever. You're forever chasing,
and never part of, the best game going.
tvp
I haven't been there in years........thinking it's time to go check it out
again.
Howard Beale
_____________________________________________________________________
One level.
http://garycarson.blogspot.com/2008/11/characteristics-of-good-game.html
________________________________________________________________________
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
Glad to have you back Will. Have you not been playing much poker
lately.
1. Foxwoods went to a pot rake about 2 weeks ago. The 1/2 game is
now nittier but an utter Wampum-cow since they are still giving you
1.5 per hour.
2. You are assuming that the tight players a. know which the better
game is and b. don't consider the amount of rocks vs tourists in the
game.
3. There is still merit in what you say. For example in my 3 Vegas
trips I have noticed that there is an inverse relation to a room's
reputation on 4 and the quality of the game. Specifically Mongoloid
Bay and Bally's are despised on that forum (for good reasons) but had
very loose games when I went there.
The exception was the Bellagio which I thought the games were okay,
since being #1 it's a magnet for just about all players.
4. Happy Thanksgiving.
How many black players were in the games at each place? I'm not trying to
be a smart ass, but I used to play at Hollypark specifically because there
were more blacks, even in the 20-40 games, and they can't play worth a lick.
There are some players who are *always* part of the best game going.
Yes, but I wouldn't want to be one of those players.
------
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
Not many. It's an easy stereotype, just as easy as the ones for Asians or
for old people. I learned long ago not to judge until I see the play. I
remember a line from Roy West (long booted from his Card Player Column)
that while most players treated unknowns as bad players he treated them as
the best players in the world until they proved him wrong and that is what
I do.
I think the Black population in Metro-Phoenix is lower than the national
average. There are a fair number of them playing at CAZ. I'd say that
they are about as average as anybody else and far less action than the
'Crazians.'
I DO remember that there was 1 Black woman regular at the Bike's game.
The first time I visited she was on my right. I spent the first couple of
hours not playing many hands, fumbling w/ my chips and cards and trying to
look like a noob. Finally I caught good and played the hand strong. When
I was raking in the chips she said something like: 'If I ever play
somewhere else I'm going to try all that fake idiocy that you just used so
well.' It didn't fool her, so there is that.
HB
--------
> That is such a crock of crap -
>
Come on. Paul's entitled to a few trolls every now and then.
> That is such a crock of crap -
>
I ought to know better, but I am dead serious and I am dead right. Have you
ever played in Gardena or Hollywood Park? Because if you haven't, maybe you
ought to just stay out of this because you don't know what you're talking
about. And I don't mean to imply that they play anything at all like the
"Crazians" to use a term that Howard Beale just used. I don't mean they
play crazy at all. I mean they just play poorly, that's all. And I am
right. I've played for years and years in Los Angeles. There are many more
black players at Hollywood Park and in Gardena than over at Commerce or the
Bike. Let me tell you something, DeleteThis, if there is a seat open at two
tables of the limit you want to play at and one is a table of white guys and
the other table has a few black guys or girls playing, if you are smart you
will choose the table with blacks. I am not trolling as Raiderfan just
surmised elsewhere in this thread. That's because Raiderfan is not a
professional or serious enough poker player. Yet I am, and I know what I'm
talking about. And I'm not saying this to be insulting or to put down black
people. But I sense that that is exactly where you are going with this,
DeleteThis. How dare you! You don't know nothing about me. I am not some
kind of white bigot if that is what you are implying. I also don't fully
understand why blacks as a group play so poorly. Maybe they don't. Maybe
just the ones in Los Angeles do. But I am correct on this. I am
absolutrely correct. And I don't like the tone of your reply. Not at all.
-Paul Popinjay
There's no troll about it. But I am quite sure you are not a serious or
professional poker player. Yet I am, and I know exactly what I am talking
about. Obviously DeleteThis is hung up with some kind of guilt trip and
cannot see the reality of the situation. I did not mean to be demeaning in
any way and I resent his obvious tone. DeleteThis is way out of line. I
haven't had very good success at communicating with him in the past. I
don't want to insult his intelligence so I will just dismiss this as a
failure to communicate. But still I'd just as soon he killfile me or
avoided replying to my posts in the future. He's got me just a little bit
agitated at the moment and I don't need this shit.
-PP
> "Raider Fan" <raidersgo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:df9506x...@recgroups.com...
> > On Nov 28 2008 6:44 AM, DELETETHIS wrote:
> >
> >> That is such a crock of crap -
> >>
> >
> > Come on. Paul's entitled to a few trolls every now and then.
> >
>
> There's no troll about it. But I am quite sure you are not a serious or
> professional poker player.
You're right. I'm not a serious or professional poker player. Even so, I
know better than to assume an opponent is bad based on their ethnicity.
______________________________________________________________________
Then you just don't know. That's all. You DON'T "know better". Obviously
you have never played in Los Angeles. Like the example I gave elsewhere in
this thread, if there are two seats open, one at a table full of old white
guys and one at a table with a few of the local blacks, you would be smart
to sit at the table with the blacks. But that's only if you are serious
about poker and want to make money. As you've admitted, you're just a
"recreational" player. In other words, you're most likely one of the
donators. You and DeleteThis are obviously hung up with some kind of guilt
trip where you are afraid of "unfairly" characterizing someone based on
ethnicity. But THAT'S the crock of crap. Not what I say is a crock of
crap, rather it is what you and DeleteThis are saying that is the crock of
crap. I've played for years and years in Los Angeles, and neither of you
have any business challenging me on this. You're both really out of line.
How dare you challenge me. I'm not stupid.
-PP
--------
If you are trying to impress me with the idea that you are some kind of
professional poker play - please dont waste your time - many are not
worth the effort to drop a twenty in their tin cup as you leave the
casino. A few are the models for a small one man business and I respect
them but that respect is earned - they must "walk the walk". They
handle the ups and downs of poker like any good businessman and move on.
They dont stoop to angle shooting and cheating to earn a good living.
They dont berate players and brag about some crap they pulled. There
is one thing all these players have in common. THEY ALL LOSE AT POKER!!.
If you listen to them they lose every session and wonder how they are
going to make ends meet. Tournament poker has changed that a little but
the old salts and the young guns are still "crying" about how much they
lost today. They keep telling everyone that will listen that they were
backed and the investor got all the money. Be very skeptical of these
players - they are often better than you think.
to which group do you belong?
I don't belong to any group. All I'm saying is that I have been quite
serious about poker since the 70s and have played extensively in the Los
Angeles area. I know what I'm talking about, and you don't. Period. You
admit that you are an average loser, so why are you debating me about
something you know nothing about? Keep your ignorance to yourself. You
have no business disagreeing with me on my statements of fact. I am not one
who casually throws out statements of facts. When I do, they're spot on.
Please don't reply to me any more in this thread. I'm frankly a little bit
agitated by you. I have little patience for people who have reached your
age in life and still have your type of attitude. You've got a lot of
nerve disagreeing with me on a subject that I know a great deal about.
-Paul Popinjay
Yes, he did.
"Don't worry too much about being bluffed. D*gs DO bite."
_Poker for Cats_ by Feather
you have any idea what Roy Greene went for before he gave up on the 75-150
game at Cas AZ ? 03-04-05 ?
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire
>back in the early 80's there were 2 blacks that were considered "players" .
One was named major. he was a terrific speed chess player, and I played
about 500 hours with him in tahoe and Reno
The other was "Smiley" in L:as Vegas .
As far as Paul saying that (in general) blacks werent that good at playing
poker :
I completely agree up until a point withijn the last 6-8 years .
And as far as the old loball days were concerned .. he is or was exactly
correct..
One of the funniest things about poker over the last 30 years , is a study
of "who played what" , and how well, based on ethnicity , and or race .
We had the Greeks
we had the Asians ( actually this can be broken down into japanese and
chinese , and after that were the Viet namese.
we even had the cowboys ( after they ventured out of texas and okla )
Just for the record .. one can examine or discuss these types of things
without being racist or being a biggot.
We have also seen blacks make a big mark in poker .
Paul is correct , in that at certain times in poker history , it was
fairly safe to 'categorize ' certain groups as "players"
if we dedcided to say . "lets talk about all the great Jewish players in
poker ".. no one would say a word about stereotyping .
But if we were to want to discuss groups that were bad players , people
would scream blue bloody murder
By the same token , if you decided to list the bad jewish players, and
some of the Jewisjh sleezbags and their faults , one would feel the wrath
A rich retired athlete that wanted to gamble. Old story that has nothing
to do w/ 'black'. How much did Bill Bennet go for at video poker before
they 'made' him give it up? Roy's problem was more that lower limits were
no thrill than that he sucked as much as any other inexperienced player
surrounded by many of the tougher regulars.
Full tables are pretty much always found at the bigger and better poker
rooms that draw the most players.
Over all, I've found that just alternating between the Bellagio and
Wynn Las Vegas is the best way to play in Vegas, for example; also the
Mirage.
If you play during prime time, you could spread it out and play at the,
MGM, Caesars, and the Venetian. However, during a seven or eight hour
session, depending on your start/stop times, you could be playing when
the poker room slows down.
In addition to the more obvious reasons for wanting to play with a full
table in a busy poker room: with a continuous full table, there's less
chance of playing against locals; locals tend to be competent players;
current dealers, ex-dealers in the game, etc.
In the smaller poker rooms, the locals are more concentrated in any
given game. The more variety of players in a big busy poker room, the
better chance that bad ones will be filtering into your game.
Actually, outside of Vegas, California, and maybe Atlantic city, there
really isn't much choice in the matter with regard to
tables/games/poker rooms selection as a thread like this would make it
out to be.
The hope is that Mohegan Sun becomes competitive with Foxwoods by
drawing more new players into both poker rooms.
As far as black players: in my experience, black players seem to
approach poker as gambling, not a grind of advantage game. They tend to
be the big raisers in the game and play an unusual amount of hands. Not
all black players play like this, of course, but the high incidence of
this style of play within demographics seems to be significant.
_________________________________________________________
Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://www.pokermagazine.com
Visit www.pokermagazine.com
>
> Just for the record .. one can examine or discuss these types of things
> without being racist or being a biggot.
>
And it's not like I'm saying they're stupid. I am not. But I don't think
this guy DeleteThis can comprehend the difference. From what I can tell of
DeleteThis, he is a perfect example of an unfinished player who has nowhere
near any idea about how much he doesn't know. By his own admission he is a
losing player. So I don't understand why he jumped in with his two cents to
tell me I am full of crap, when he does not know what he's talking about,
and I do.
When I cut my teeth in Gardena, that's all there was in Los Angeles. When
the big clubs opened elsewhere, the blacks from the local areas continued to
play in Gardena, and then later at HollyPark when that opened. They didn't
go to Commerce or the Bike. They LIVE right there near Gardena. And it's
not like they were wildly throwing their money away in the games. It was
more like they just didn't have the instinct to win. That's it. They
didn't play to win! Where've I heard THAT before?
Now if you want another "stereotype", I'll tellya, if you see a seat open at
a table where there are a few young people playing who are maybe 24 or so, I
guarantee you THAT is a good game! Does that mean that young people are
stupid? Well, maybe that's a poor analogy. lol
-PP
> > you have any idea what Roy Greene went for before he gave up on the 75-150
> > game at Cas AZ ? 03-04-05 ?
>
>
> A rich retired athlete that wanted to gamble. Old story that has nothing
> to do w/ 'black'. How much did Bill Bennet go for at video poker before
> they 'made' him give it up? Roy's problem was more that lower limits were
> no thrill than that he sucked as much as any other inexperienced player
> surrounded by many of the tougher regulars.
>
>
> HB
I just wanted to tweak you with some more Cas AZ stuff.
But seriously , do you really want to go on record as saying certain
groups , in general , dont do certain things better or worse, than others
as a group ?
I know there are standouts (top and bottom) in any group.
Throughout our history , different groups have developed , and exhibited
certain skill levels at certain things that others , as a group have not .
here is one for instance.. take a group of under 25 , white poker players
Super standouts.. yep.. super morons .. a few , but in general .. they
play like shit . They are pot commited when they get 35 dollars out of a
200 dollar buy in , in the pot . etc etc etc
The same types of things (good and bad) can be listed about any number of
groups of people , broken down by ethnicity , or other criteria
lets take a little Jewish guy sitting in the 1 seat , and the dealer
doesnt drop the time collection .. oops 2 years off !!
Little white haired old lady , gets raised , looks at board for 45 seconds
,and looks back at her cards twice, then shakes and reraises .. you may
now fold your hand (every friggen time )
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire
_______________________________________________________________________
HUH ????? That is all poker is !! period
They tend to
> be the big raisers in the game and play an unusual amount of hands. Not
> all black players play like this, of course, but the high incidence of
> this style of play within demographics seems to be significant.
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://www.pokermagazine.com
> Visit www.pokermagazine.com
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire
----
Howard Beale
-------
> Since you want to get serious about it I'd recommend reading Thomas Sowell
> who has written about why certain groups seem to concentrate and excel in
> various different fields. It has little to do w/ race but rather to do w/
> culture, history, opportunity and 'inheritance' for want of a better word.
Of course , the culture, history, opportunities etc etc within that race
or ethnic group.
When it comes down to it , in poker , blacks slow roll , Greeks lie about
what they had , Jews short the pot, Italians make arrogant floor people ,
and Asian dealers are taking over the industry because they never complain
, except for Asian women like Von, who get new boobies, and never want for
cash after that !!
Oh yeah , and mexicans mumble , drink , throw cards and threaten to kill
people
> Example: All the Greek diners in the Northeast. All the Korean dry
> cleaners. Going up the chain the Jewish doctors and lawyers. Following
> the family business, as it were.
>
>
> Howard Beale
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire
---
>Paul
Do you remember the old loball days , when it came to paying time , the
little old Jewish ladies coulndt reach their 'time circle" , but if they
drew 2 cards and beat a 6 for you ..
they would jump up , and reach all the way across the table for thier pot ?
or dealing .. they couldnt get your card half way to you !!
>
>>Paul
>
> Do you remember the old loball days , when it came to paying time , the
> little old Jewish ladies coulndt reach their 'time circle" , but if they
> drew 2 cards and beat a 6 for you ..
>
> they would jump up , and reach all the way across the table for thier pot
> ?
>
> or dealing .. they couldnt get your card half way to you !!
>
Yes, I do remember them. But I didn't know they were Jewish. They didn't
look Jewish.
7 or 8 gnarly fingers , well manicured , with more diamonds than a south
african dictator
votchu coth irvink ?
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire
--------
I'll never forget the first time I went to Elsinore. Of course, Elsinore
had 50 tables, whereas Gardena had 35. Anyway, I think it was on a Sunday
and they were having a pan tournament. I walked in and there were like a
gazillion little old ladies playing pan. Blue hair, all of them! lol They
all looked alike.
I only played in Gardena once. I'd never played limit draw and never
played jacks or better. I'd played nolimit with blinds (guts) in San
Bruno.
I opened with a combination flush draw and Ace Joker (Ace wasn't
suited) intending to draw to the pair unless I got a bunch of
callers. I got a bunch of callers so I drew to the flush and missed.
I bet after the draw anyway and everybody folded.
When I went to grab the pot blue haired old lady said, "Show us your
openers".
"Huh?" was my response.
I only played in Gardena once. I'd never played limit draw and never
played jacks or better. I'd played nolimit with blinds (guts) in San
Bruno.
I opened with a combination flush draw and Ace Joker (Ace wasn't
suited) intending to draw to the pair unless I got a bunch of
callers. I got a bunch of callers so I drew to the flush and missed.
I bet after the draw anyway and everybody folded.
When I went to grab the pot blue haired old lady said, "Show us your
openers".
"Huh?" was my response.
------------------------------------------
Ha! Better luck next time. N00B!!! lol
Yes, but those may be the reasons that what Paul says that he observed
was true. To be fair to Paul, and I hate to do it, he has been
reporting what he saw in a particular time and place, not making a
sweeping generalization about how things will be everywhere forever.
--
Will in New Haven
Will, I want to thank you for being fair to me. Sometimes I really grow
tired of the verbal abuse I get on this newsgroup from some of these
cretins.
-PP
>
> Paul, you never get verbal abuse. All your abuse is typed.
>
o0o o0o
You really think there are that many people from Crete who post here ??
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire
_____________________________________________________________________
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There's an example in Theory of Poker of some guy who breaks his Aces
and draws a royal flush but loses because he forgot to declare he was
splitting his openers