Lowball Trip Report (California)
Paul G
I recently found three cardrooms where it is occasionally spread.
First is the Limelight in downtown Sacramento. The typical game is straight
$6 limit. A player can look at two and kill it, making it $12 to go. The
game is single limit, with the after-the-draw bet being the same as before
the draw. The blinds are $1, $2, and $3, and the opening bet is $6, or an
amount equal to the total of the blinds. It cannot be open-raised as in
Southern California games. This was the standard Sacramento lowball
structure in its day. The game is self-dealt by the players. The house
collects $3 per half hour from each player. For years you could find a
regular straight $20 limit game in town, one that would typically go around
the clock. No longer. The old Sundowner Cardroom has moved to downtown,
and is now called the Capitol Cardroom. They have stopped spreading
lowball, within the last two years. The action (if you want to call it
that) has moved to the Limelight, on Alhambra street, which is an older
establishment that has been there for decades. A year ago they had regular
$6 limit, with an occasional $20 on Wednesdays. Now, they have a $6 on
Wednesday, and rarely is there any lowball on other days.
The Game:
The bad thing about the game is, that everyone is 70 years old. The good
thing, however, is that many of them have not improved their poker game in
70 years. To the astute cardreader, playing lowball with less than topnotch
players, is like playing with the cards turned face up. They "tell" you
what they've got. And in this case, these 70-year-olds do the same "moves"
that they've been doing for decades, without ever having wised up as to the
fact that they give their hand away. Of course, one probably wouldn't
expect to find many talented players still playing in a $6 limit lowball
game. The good players have long since gone where the money is, that is, to
the holdem games.
1.) When you and your lone opponent have both hit the deck and you act
first, say you have drawn to a good hand but caught a 9 or even a Ten, and
your opponent is reaching for or grabbing at his chips prematurely, should
you bet or check?
2.) Say you have been raised by your lone opponent before the draw, and you
call drawing to 7-6-5-4 and catch an 8. Your opponent, who acts after you,
has stood pat, but has a Seven "in the window" and "accidentally" exposes it
prematurely. Should you bet or check?
3.) Say you are in the cutoff, no one has opened yet, and the man to your
left on the button is prematurely fiddling with his chips, apparently
anticipating playing this hand. What kind of hand do you KNOW he does not
hold?
4.) Say it is you and your lone opponent. You act first, it is your turn to
draw or rap. But before you get a chance to draw, your opponent behind you
prematurely starts to "knuckle" the table as if to stand pat, that is, draw
no cards. Should you break your 9-7-6-5-4?
Northern California:
There is still lowball action at the Oaks Club in Emeryville. They
regularly spread a straight $20 game, with occasional $60 and $120 limit
games on the weekend.
In the Sacramento area, the game described above is still hanging on by a
thread at the old Limelight Cardroom. It is a nice cardroom, with little
room to park, however.
In Rancho Cordova, just outside of Sacramento, they have a straight $10
limit lowball on Sundays. The blinds are $1, $2, and $5. The game is self
dealt and collection is taken at $4 every half hour.
In Lodi, California, just north of Stockton, there is still lowball at
Jack's Back Cardroom, a couple times per week. Lodi is probably the very
last city in California to legalize holdem and non-draw games. Before 1987,
only forms of draw poker were allowed in this state. The Sacramento area
was one of the last to legalize holdem in or around 1994, although cities
nearby, like Citrus Heights, allowed it before that. (The Lucky Derby, for
instance). To this day, the town of Lodi still prohibits non-draw poker.
In other words, they only play lowball, or occasionally Pan, and a local
game they call Dumpy. The place now called Jack's Back Cardroom was run by
Roy and was called Roy's Club since 1948. The cardroom/bar is located on
Sacramento Street near the railroad tracks, in what used to be somewhat of a
rough area. It has been cleaned up over the last decade, though. There
were once some seven cardrooms on this street. But in the last decade,
Roy's was the only one remaining. When one enters Roy's Club and looks
around, he gets a picture of what the California cardroom scene used to be
like, all over the state, with some 600 licensed clubs before the late 80s.
The lowball game is a spread limit $6-20 any time, with a $1, $2, and $3
blinds. They now collect $5 per half hour, although I think Roy used to
collect $3. This is really a group of nice old guys. The average age is
over 60. The game runs about two nights per week usually. Recently they
have had difficulty keeping the game filled because they have lost 5 or 6
longtime regulars who have died in the last six months. In my opinion, the
game at Roy's Club is what poker should be like. A bunch of old guys
sitting there playing lowball, drinking beer, cussing and telling stories
about the old days. There are still old timers who can tell you stories
about when there were lowball games in Galt, several long since closed rooms
in Stockton, and neighboring towns like French Camp, Oakdale, Antioch, etc.
It's a slice of Americana, that is quickly disappearing.
After all these years, it looks like the town of Lodi is finally about to
legalize holdem, as the City Council will probably do next week. For years,
the old cardroom owner Roy, really did not want holdem in the town. He
thought it would break many of the regulars, whereas they could make their
money last much longer at lowball. This may have been a valid point.
However, Roy is older now and the new people want holdem. It looks like the
City doesn't see any reason why not. So, next week, Lodi will probably be
the very last city in the state to legalize holdem.
There may still be a few other lowball games in the northern part of the
state. I know that some cardrooms had lowball on Friday nights not long
ago. But this may not be anymore either. I know that the Friday night
lowball in towns like Tracy and Benicia do not exist anymore. It is
possible they might still play in Gilroy, the garlic capitol of the world.
I did not stop in Gilroy on this trip. In San Jose, a town that has had
straight $20 and $30 limit lowball since forever, there is no longer any
lowball game spread and there hasn't been for the last two years. Very sad.
It's really a shame in many respects. There's a lot of colorful history to
the game of California Lowball. And it can be a good game. But alas, the
writing is on the wall. Unless there is a place in cyberspace for it
someday, it may soon become entirely extinct.
CalDan
I've played very little lowball (some 20 limit at Garden City in the 90's)but
I'll take a crack at your quiz:
>
> 1.) When you and your lone opponent have both hit the deck and you act
> first, say you have drawn to a good hand but caught a 9 or even a Ten, and
> your opponent is reaching for or grabbing at his chips prematurely, should
> you bet or check?
Bet. Your 9 or 10 is good as gold - he caught a J or Q and wants you to check.
> 2.) Say you have been raised by your lone opponent before the draw, and you
> call drawing to 7-6-5-4 and catch an 8. Your opponent, who acts after you,
> has stood pat, but has a Seven "in the window" and "accidentally" exposes it
> prematurely. Should you bet or check?
Bet. You can beat his 9-7 or 10-7.
>
> 3.) Say you are in the cutoff, no one has opened yet, and the man to your
> left on the button is prematurely fiddling with his chips, apparently
> anticipating playing this hand. What kind of hand do you KNOW he does not
> hold?
A pat hand.
>
> 4.) Say it is you and your lone opponent. You act first, it is your turn to
> draw or rap. But before you get a chance to draw, your opponent behind you
> prematurely starts to "knuckle" the table as if to stand pat, that is, draw
> no cards. Should you break your 9-7-6-5-4?
No.
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Oliver Tse
On Oct 21 2005 1:02 PM, Paul G wrote:
Let's see how many of these I screw up:
> 1.) When you and your lone opponent have both hit the deck and you act
> first, say you have drawn to a good hand but caught a 9 or even a Ten, and
> your opponent is reaching for or grabbing at his chips prematurely, should
> you bet or check?
Bet. Your opponent does NOT want you to bet so that he can show his marginal
hand down. He won't be able to call your bet unless he has at least made his 8,
which I don't think he has based on his balk move.
> 2.) Say you have been raised by your lone opponent before the draw, and you
> call drawing to 7-6-5-4 and catch an 8. Your opponent, who acts after you,
> has stood pat, but has a Seven "in the window" and "accidentally" exposes it
> prematurely. Should you bet or check?
Check. Either the straight 8 is way ahead or is way behind. Opponent won't
call the one bet unless he actually has a 7. Betting would have negative
expectation here. (I suspect that opponent has missed drawing to his 7 anyway
so he won't be able to call a bet.)
> 3.) Say you are in the cutoff, no one has opened yet, and the man to your
> left on the button is prematurely fiddling with his chips, apparently
> anticipating playing this hand. What kind of hand do you KNOW he does not
> hold?
Opponent does NOT have a wheel or a 6-4-3-2-1. If he had either of those hands,
he would be sitting still and not balk with his chips to scare away potential
customers.
> 4.) Say it is you and your lone opponent. You act first, it is your turn to
> draw or rap. But before you get a chance to draw, your opponent behind you
> prematurely starts to "knuckle" the table as if to stand pat, that is, draw
> no cards. Should you break your 9-7-6-5-4?
No. Opponent is balking to stand pat, so he probably has a marginal hand. Put
pressure on opponent to break his marginal hand to draw by standing pat
yourself.
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Casey
draw, and you
Paul G.> call drawing to 7-6-5-4 and catch an 8. Your opponent, who
acts after you,
Paul G.> has stood pat, but has a Seven "in the window" and
"accidentally" exposes it
Paul G.> prematurely. Should you bet or check?
CalDan > Bet. You can beat his 9-7 or 10-7.
I don't think an 8 high straight beats a 10 low in lowball.
Oliver Tse
hand is a 5-4-3-2-A.
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Quick
>> 4.) Say it is you and your lone opponent. You act first,
>> it is your turn to draw or rap. But before you get a
>> chance to draw, your opponent behind you prematurely
>> starts to "knuckle" the table as if to stand pat, that
>> is, draw no cards. Should you break your 9-7-6-5-4?
>
> No. Opponent is balking to stand pat, so he probably has
> a marginal hand. Put pressure on opponent to break his
> marginal hand to draw by standing pat yourself.
Oliver, standing pat does not put pressure on your opponent
to break his hand. Your raise before the draw was for that.
(I must have played with CalDan...)
-Quick
Oliver Tse
Your opening bet could mean either a smooth 1-card draw or a pat hand to your
opponent. Your opening bet alone doesn't put pressure on anyone behind you who
hasn't entered the pot.
Your opponent needed a minimum of a smooth 1-card draw in order to call your
opening bet. He might even have a "2-way" hand, i.e. a marginal pat hand with a
smooth 1-card draw.
I would stand pat to put pressure on the opponent to break his marginal pat hand
i.e. 9-4-3-2-A or even 8-4-3-2-A, if that is what he actually had.
If the opponent actually had at least a 7, he would stand pat as well after you
had stood pat so you could check and fold to his bet after the draw.
CalDan
You are officially invited to my home game.
Dan
Casey
lowball or CA lowball, I think I'll do ok.
Oliver Tse
On Oct 21 2005 1:31 PM, Oliver Tse wrote:
> On Oct 21 2005 1:02 PM, Paul G wrote:
> Let's see how many of these I screw up:
> > 2.) Say you have been raised by your lone opponent before the draw, and you
> > call drawing to 7-6-5-4 and catch an 8. Your opponent, who acts after you,
> > has stood pat, but has a Seven "in the window" and "accidentally" exposes it
> > prematurely. Should you bet or check?
>
> Check. Either the straight 8 is way ahead or is way behind. Opponent won't
> call the one bet unless he actually has a 7. Betting would have negative
> expectation here. (I suspect that opponent has missed drawing to his 7 anyway
> so he won't be able to call a bet.)
I screwed this one up. I misread the question. My opponent had stood pat after
I had drawn and decided to flash a 7 on the "window". That means opponent
probably does NOT have a 7 low. My straight 8 is ahead unless the opponent has
a better 8-7 low. Correct play is to BET for value and hope that opponent will
call with a 9-7 low.
CalDan
On Oct 21 2005 2:09 PM, Casey wrote:
> Ok, but unless you make prop bets on whether a post is regarding KC
> lowball or CA lowball, I think I'll do ok.
We play California lowball AND KC lowball, but no Casey lowball.
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Quick
> Ok, but unless you make prop bets on whether a post is
> regarding KC lowball or CA lowball, I think I'll do ok.
The post has (California) in the subject and Dan mentioned
playing 20 limit at Garden City. Poker has a something to
do with reads so I'm pretty sure Dan won't withdraw the
invititation.
-Quick
Quick
> On Oct 21 2005 1:31 PM, Oliver Tse wrote:
>
>> On Oct 21 2005 1:02 PM, Paul G wrote:
>
>> Let's see how many of these I screw up:
>
>>> 2.) Say you have been raised by your lone opponent
>>> before the draw, and you call drawing to 7-6-5-4 and
>>> catch an 8. Your opponent, who acts after you, has
>>> stood pat, but has a Seven "in the window" and
>>> "accidentally" exposes it prematurely. Should you bet
>>> or check?
>>
>> Check. Either the straight 8 is way ahead or is way
>> behind. Opponent won't call the one bet unless he
>> actually has a 7. Betting would have negative
>> expectation here. (I suspect that opponent has missed
>> drawing to his 7 anyway so he won't be able to call a
>> bet.)
>
> I screwed this one up. I misread the question. My
> opponent had stood pat after I had drawn and decided to
> flash a 7 on the "window". That means opponent probably
> does NOT have a 7 low. My straight 8 is ahead unless the
> opponent has a better 8-7 low. Correct play is to BET for
> value and hope that opponent will call with a 9-7 low.
And you would certainly call the raise too, right?
-Quick
Oliver Tse
I might even re-raise.
Oliver Tse
On Oct 21 2005 1:02 PM, Paul G wrote:
> Northern California:
>
> There is still lowball action at the Oaks Club in Emeryville. They
> regularly spread a straight $20 game, with occasional $60 and $120 limit
> games on the weekend.
The Oaks is keeping one California Lowball tourney each year on the Saturday
before Thanksgiving, with $10000 added to the prize pool.
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CalDan
On Oct 21 2005 2:55 PM, Oliver Tse wrote:
>
> On Oct 21 2005 1:02 PM, Paul G wrote:
>
>
> > Northern California:
> >
> > There is still lowball action at the Oaks Club in Emeryville. They
> > regularly spread a straight $20 game, with occasional $60 and $120 limit
> > games on the weekend.
>
> The Oaks is keeping one California Lowball tourney each year on the Saturday
> before Thanksgiving, with $10000 added to the prize pool.
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Quick
Hmmm, I wouldn't re-raise unless I knew the opponent
pretty well.
-Quick
TD Lowball
Oliver Tse <oli...@best.com> wrote:
>
> I would stand pat to put pressure on the opponent to break his marginal pat
> hand
> i.e. 9-4-3-2-A or even 8-4-3-2-A, if that is what he actually had.
>
> If the opponent actually had at least a 7, he would stand pat as well after
> you
> had stood pat so you could check and fold to his bet after the draw.
If he has the Wheel draw, your going to get raised. If he had 8432A,
that is not a marginal hand, and will never be broken in a limit game.
People don't break 8's in limit games.
TD Lowball --
Quick
My version was always "roses are red, violets are blue,
never break an 8 and don't draw 2". I always get corrected
with "it's 'don't draw to an 8'" but I misheard the brush the
very first time I played. I had asked for advice before I sat
down to play the very first time.
-Quick
Paul G
>
> 1.) When you and your lone opponent have both hit the deck and you act
> first, say you have drawn to a good hand but caught a 9 or even a Ten,
and
> your opponent is reaching for or grabbing at his chips prematurely, should
> you bet or check?
>
Bet right into him because he doesn't want you to bet. He's probably
painted. But to value bet rough hands successfully, you've got to have an
image that will allow you to be called by worse hands.
> 2.) Say you have been raised by your lone opponent before the draw, and
you
> call drawing to 7-6-5-4 and catch an 8. Your opponent, who acts after
you,
> has stood pat, but has a Seven "in the window" and "accidentally" exposes
it
> prematurely. Should you bet or check?
>
Bet right into him. He's got a 9 or Ten behind that seven, and he wants a
free showdown. Disappoint him.
> 3.) Say you are in the cutoff, no one has opened yet, and the man to your
> left on the button is prematurely fiddling with his chips, apparently
> anticipating playing this hand. What kind of hand do you KNOW he does not
> hold?
>
The one thing you KNOW he doesn't have is a raising hand, or, as Oliver
said, he'd be waiting there motionless waiting to pounce, or actually
looking away as if "uninterested". By making it obvious that he wants to
play, he's trying to discourage you from opening. He wants to open,
probably with a weak holding that is playable from the button. And
remember, he's got a chip out there already, because the smallest blind is
on the button.
> 4.) Say it is you and your lone opponent. You act first, it is your turn
to
> draw or rap. But before you get a chance to draw, your opponent behind
you
> prematurely starts to "knuckle" the table as if to stand pat, that is,
draw
> no cards. Should you break your 9-7-6-5-4?
>
Keep the 9 and don't be too surprised if he draws two behind you. He wants
you to break down as far as possible.
My example did not mention whether there was a raise. In Northern
California, the first player in just opens, unlike Los Angeles where he
generally opens with a raise.
And when you do find someone who shoots this ploy, or any conscious ploy for
that matter, don't ever wise him up to the fact that you are wise to it.
Because, as can be seen with this example, you may play against him again
someday, when you're both 70 years old, and he might STILL be doing it. lol
It's really a shame there isn't much lowball anymore. It was a great game.
And against poor to mediocre opponents, it can be like they're playing with
their cards face up.
Good responses.
TD Lowball
"Quick" <quick71...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>
> My version was always "roses are red, violets are blue,
> never break an 8 and don't draw 2". I always get corrected
> with "it's 'don't draw to an 8'" but I misheard the brush the
> very first time I played. I had asked for advice before I sat
> down to play the very first time.
>
> -Quick
The way I learned it, is that you should never draw at something you
couldn't bet with confedence after the draw. And that if other people
are out there drawing at 7's 6's and wheel's why would you want to draw
at a 8?
8's are the two pair hand of lowball --
TD Lowball --