Evidence of Gary Carson's plagiarism
Alannschoonmaker
one's own the thoughts, writings, or inventions of another." It does not matter
whether the material taken is copyrighted, original, brilliant, or foolish, nor
does length matter much; for example; you can't copy more than a few bars of
music. If you claim to have written someone else words, it is plagiarism,
period, end of story.
Please note that I explicitly and repeatedly stated that the concepts were not
original, that all I was doing was formalizing ideas that were either widely
known or had been presented by other writers. My contribution was presenting a
formal structure to help readers to understand and apply these ideas.
Gary had never had any contact with me, but he repeatedly attacked my ideas,
approach, structure, and person. For example, "Some guys, when they get a
little older, they start losing their hair and exibit (sic) other signs of
aging. When that happens, they'll do whatever it takes to get it hard again,
even writing a book."
Gary then used the identical structure and even many of the same words. To
clarify the picture, my words are in normal type; GARY'S WORDS ARE IN CAPS; and
an ellipsis (...) means that some of my words have been deleted. My words are
from pages 73-78 of "The Psychology of Poker.". Gary's words are from pages
197-198 of his book.
"Looseness and aggression are the most important stylistic dimensions... Lots
of writers have made this point, but nobody has dealt with it systematically.
The styles grid will help you to adjust quickly by portraying each player and
game as a two digit number. The first digit is the tight/loose score, and the
second digit is the passive/aggressive score." "PLAYERS CAN BE GENERALLY
CATEGORIZED ALONG TWO DIMENSIONS: PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE AND LOOSE- TIGHT."
"Extreme Style 1,1: The Rock (extremely tight-passive). .. they wait until they
have a big edge... They don't just want the edge; they want a lock (unbeatable
hand)." "SOMEONE WHO IS EXTREMELY TIGHT AND PASSIVE IS CALLED A ‘ROCK'
BECAUSE HE WILL PLAY ONLY SURE HANDS."
Extreme Style 9,1: The Calling Station (extremely loose-passive)... they stay
in nearly every pot, calling bet after bet, but they rarely bet or raise."
"SOMEONE WHO IS EXTREMELY LOOSE AND PASSIVE IS CALLED A ‘CALLING STATION'
BECAUSE HE WILL NEARLY ALWAYS CALL SOMEONE ELSE'S BETS, BUT WILL RARELY BET OR
RAISE HIMSELF."
"Extreme Style 9,9: The Maniac (extremely loose-aggressive). Maniacs raise,
reraise, and even cap ... with hands you should throw away." "SOMEONE WHO IS
EXTREMELY LOOSE AND AGGRESSIVE IS CALLED A ‘MANIAC' BECAUSE HE WILL BET AND
RAISE ON JUST ABOUT ANYTHING."
"Extreme Style 1,9: The Stone Killer (extremely tight-aggressive)... They don't
play anything but profitable hands, and they play them in the most profitable
way." "THE LAST EXTREME PLAYER IS BOTH TIGHT AND AGGRESSIVE AND IS CALLED A
‘STONE KILLER' BECAUSE HE IS THE ONE WHO WAITS FOR HIS OPPORTUNITIES AND THEN
POUNCES ON THEM, MAKING THE MOST MONEY."
The words "Rock," "Maniac," and "Calling Station" are quite common. To the best
of my knowledge the term "Stone Killer" had not appeared in the poker
literature before my book.. Gary claims that his editor inserted most of this
material and that he did not like it, which is an obvious lie. Editors do not
insert paragraphs, especially when the author does not like them. Gary also
claims that he does not even know the meaning of "Stone Killer." Have you ever
heard of an author's making such a claim for a term in his own book?
One last bit. On page 112 I wrote: "Don't just look at the player; watch how
others react to him. They may already know him." Gary wrote: "YOU CAN ALSO GET
AN ASSESSMENT OF WHAT TYPE OF PLAYER YOU ARE DEALING WITH BY WATCHING HOW OTHER
PLAYERS, WHO PRESUMABLY KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT HIM, REACT TO HIM.".
You may believe that his actions are not that bad, and I would agree if he had
not been so viciously critical. However, it seems absurd for him to attack my
ideas and me personally, then turn around and publish the same ideas in very
similar words.
If any professors read this, please answer two questions: (1) Would you regard
his actions as plagiarism? (2) If a student took these actions on a term paper,
what grade would you give?
If anyone in publishing reads this, please answer three more questions: (1) Do
you believe Gary's claim that his editor inserted this material? (2) If the
editor inserted it, is Gary still responsible for it? (3) Have you ever heard
an author claim that he did not know the meaning of an important term in his
own book?
Alan Schoonmaker
Gary Carson
On 24 Nov 2001 03:38:59 GMT, alannsch...@cs.com
(Alannschoonmaker) wrote:
Gary Carson
http:// garycarson.home.mindspring.com
DaVoice
I have never read your book (sorry) but I used the same terminology (with
the exception of "stone killer") when teaching my wife the basic concepts of
casino poker. I've seen MANY other authors use the same phrasing and
terminology. This is MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING (oh shit, thats plagiarism).
When I would train "part-timers" in radio, I would use the radio "lingo" or
terminology that was the accepted standard in the business. For instance,
instead of saying "please insert the magnetic tape containing cartridge into
the triple deck magnetic tape cartridge reading machine", I would simply
say, "Grab that 'cart' and put it in the 'cart machine'" If I had written
the instructions out and published a book called "radio for beginners" and
used that terminology, and 1, 5 or 10 yrs later someone else ALSO used that
very terminology in their new book "radio for dummies" would that be
plagiarism? I think not.
Rick "ADB DaVoice" Charles
"Alannschoonmaker" <alannsch...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20011123223859...@mb-mh.news.cs.com...
Zen
paranoid imagination. That is the only 2 words in the whole thing
that seem like possible plagerism IMHO. I've never read either of
your books but have used almost the exact same wording, when
explaining these concepts of how to evaluate players (except the term
stone killer). I pretty sure I cannot have plagarized if I have never
been exposed to your writings.
As for the rest of your arguement, your interpretation of the
definition of plagarism is incomplete or incorrect. If I said "the
sky is blue" and it turned out you had written that same statement in
a book, would I be guilty of plagarism? Of course not. But by the
definition you are using and how you are applying it, you could make
that claim. Your application of that definition is just plain silly.
On top of that, as you state, they are not even your ideas and are
widely known and presented by other writers as well.
Zen
On 24 Nov 2001 03:38:59 GMT, alannsch...@cs.com
(Alannschoonmaker) wrote:
Badger
> Alan,
>
> I have never read your book (sorry) but I used the same terminology (with
> the exception of "stone killer") when teaching my wife the basic concepts
of
> casino poker. I've seen MANY other authors use the same phrasing and
> terminology. This is MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING (oh shit, thats plagiarism).
It seems to me that every part of Alan's complaint is exactly much ado about
nothing, except "stone killer". They both described very ordinary player
characteristics. (Gary's prose read much better though, IMO.)
On the other hand, in all my years of poker I've never heard the term "stone
killer" used. Alan has a legitimate gripe there, I think.
--
Steve Badger
http://www.playwinningpoker.com
Bill Bradley
common terminology. I'm sure you'd find similar language and concepts in
just about any poker book I don't see how you could write a book on poker
and aviod using similar language.
The only unusual similarity I see is the use of the term "stone killer" to
describe a tight aggressive player. Calling this plagarism however is more
than a stretch. Stone killer is a fairly common term and I have heard it
used to describe dangerous players (tight-aggressive by definition) many
times, probably decades ago the first time.
In my view one should be careful about claiming ownership of common
terminology and concepts.
Terrence Chan
(Alannschoonmaker) wrote:
>You may believe that his actions are not that bad, and I would agree if he had
>not been so viciously critical. However, it seems absurd for him to attack my
>ideas and me personally, then turn around and publish the same ideas in very
>similar words.
I have a question. I have not read Carson's comments on
your book. However, I would like to know, did Gary attack
the same ideas that you claim he has plagiarized from your
book? Or did he attack other ideas in your book? If they
were other ideas, why is this absurd?
--
Terrence Chan
http://www.sfu.ca/~tchand/
Daniel Kimberg
> It seems to me that every part of Alan's complaint is exactly much ado
about
> nothing, except "stone killer". They both described very ordinary player
> characteristics. (Gary's prose read much better though, IMO.)
I agree. Presumably, Alan picked the six most strikingly similar bits to
make his argument. Given that, he came up with surprisingly little. Aside
from the phrase "stone killer," the only mildly compelling bit was the last
one, which wasn't in the page ranges he originally cited. I haven't made up
my mind on that yet. Anyway, I don't see much of an argument for
plagiarism, especially if it turns out that the phrase "stone killer" really
is in common usage in some circles.
dan
ps for the record, the loose-tight and passive-aggressive axes were first
described by Aristotle, later William James, then Lee Munzer and Andy
Glazer, and finally by everyone who either played or wrote about poker
between when I started in 1994 and now.
Andras Nagy
poker author here ??? I do own Gary's book, but I never heard of you.
alannsch...@cs.com (Alannschoonmaker) wrote in message news:<20011123223859...@mb-mh.news.cs.com>...
James L. Hankins
Gary Carson, but I don't think purveyor of plagiarism is one of them. I am
glad that Alan laid it out specifically so everyone can see how flimsy his
allegations are. I read Alan's book and, although it was somewhat
interesting, there was not an original thought in the whole thing. Gary
just uses common terms and phrases to describe general concepts. Alan's
accusations are just plain pitiful.
James L. Hankins
"Alannschoonmaker" <alannsch...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20011123223859...@mb-mh.news.cs.com...
Gary Carson
Attack is a strong word. What I said was that I thought it was
simplistic -- pretty much assuming two liniar dimentions can meausre
all the important player characteristics. I wouldn't be critical of a
long magazine article that did that.
But, if you devote a book on that subject and don't give signigicant
attention to other dimensions (such as tricky/straigtforward and
weak/tough then you've dropped the ball. He also has an implicit
assumption of linearlty that would be okay for an article but more
simplistic than needed in a book.
Based only on the measurements he uses in his book I don't see a good
way to distinguish between a maniac and a player on FPS -- and I think
they are different.
His book would have made a nice magazine article -- maybe a long one
in 3 parts.
And, he's bald.
Gary Carson
<PlayWinning[RemoveThis]Po...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>On the other hand, in all my years of poker I've never heard the term
"stone
>killer" used. Alan has a legitimate gripe there, I think.
>--
Yes, but I didn't get the term from his book. When I wrote the
manuscript his book wasn't even avaliable.
As I said, the term came from my editor during the final edits. I
called him about the term because I'd never heard it. He told me he'd
heard it in NY and AC and I said, okay, if you like it we'll use it --
My editor could have been mistaken and gotten it from Alan's book. I
don't even know whether he'd read Alan's book or not. It's actually
possible he'd heard the term at the table with Alan in AC. Or if he
plays O/8 my agent might have heard it and mentioned the term to my
editor. I'm not going to call him and ask him unless Alan want's to
sue me -- I might not even bother then.
Maybe Alan and Mason can get together and swap meds.
Jeff Wilder
Is Alan Schoonmaker really claiming these categories were defined
by him and copied by Gary?
Why not just go all the way and claim a patent on the game of
poker?
Jeff
Badger
> Why not just go all the way and claim a patent on the game of
> poker?
Apparently 782 people have already...
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fn
etahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=poker&FIELD1=&co1=AND&TERM2=&F
IELD2=&d=ft00
Gary Carson
<wild...@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote:
>Is this a joke?
>
>Is Alan Schoonmaker really claiming these categories were defined
>by him and copied by Gary?
Yes.
m...@acm.org
[...]
> Gary had never had any contact with me, but he repeatedly attacked
> my ideas,
This has nothing to do with if he plagarized the title you wrote for
2+2 or not.
> approach, structure, and person. For example, "Some guys, when they get a
> little older, they start losing their hair and exibit (sic) other signs of
> aging. When that happens, they'll do whatever it takes to get it hard again,
> even writing a book."
Waaa. For a guy who has written a book about poker psychology you sure
needle easy. I hate to be the one to point this out to the 2+2
psychology expert, but by reacting this way you just encourage Gary to
pick on you more.
[...]
As others have said all but the one section which use the term "stone
killer" are definitely not plagarism. You'd have to go a lot further
to prove that the "stone killer" section was plagarism.
mph
Mike Caro
<PlayWinning[RemoveThis]Po...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Jeff Wilder"
>> Why not just go all the way and claim a patent on the game of
>> poker?
>
>Apparently 782 people have already...
And mostly for games I tried to give away.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
Gary Carson
posted a substantail portion of one of my rgp posts to 2+2. Without
permision.
I emailed Chuck telling him the post had been copied without my
permission and asked him to remove it.
Any lawyers want to represent me on this?
RazzO
razzo
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razzo
Gary Carson wrote:
--
Gregory Raymer
news:3bff5ff1....@news.mindspring.com...
> To me, the most interesting aspect of all this is that on Monday Alan
> posted a substantail portion of one of my rgp posts to 2+2. Without
> permision.
>
> I emailed Chuck telling him the post had been copied without my
> permission and asked him to remove it.
>
> Any lawyers want to represent me on this?
Sure, glad to.
My rate is $250/hour, with a $10,000 retainer. As soon as your check
clears, I'll file the papers.
;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Vince
whether certain words or phrases were lifted from another source ? Who the
F- cares! What I want to know from Gary Carson is: Am I going to learn
anything new from this book?
Fujiyama33204
player I aspire to be. Tight, aggressive, and striking fear into the hearts of
my opponents.
I haven't read either book so someone please let me know if either one adds the
word 'cold' so's that I can sue their asses!
There's no crying in poker
Linda K Sherman
>
> As others have said all but the one section which use the term "stone
> killer" are definitely not plagarism. You'd have to go a lot further
> to prove that the "stone killer" section was plagarism.
It could be coincidence. In writing this happens more often than people
realize.
I once had what I thought was a brilliantly original idea for a movie,
and I started working on the screenplay. About two weeks later, a TV
movie was broadcast that had virtually the same story. The opening scene
was almost identical to mine, down to some pretty specific details. But
it was all coincidence.
Linda
Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips
>As for the rest of your arguement, your interpretation of the
>definition of plagarism is incomplete or incorrect. If I said "the
>sky is blue" and it turned out you had written that same statement in
>a book, would I be guilty of plagarism?
This reminds me of a lot of books I have read about Theodore
Roosevelt- 4 or 5 of them biographies. No matter how many
you read, by whatever author, the events always come
out the same. McKinley is always assassinated, Teddy (vice-
President) always ascends to the Presidency, Teddy always
goes up San Juan Hill, and Teddy always dies at the end. Every
author writes about the exact same events. For instance, If young
Theodore goes ice-skating at age 18, then in the book by Author A
he "went skating till dark on a December day" and in the book by
Author B (regarding the same event) he "threw himself lustily into
skating until the sun had gone down", and in the book by Author C
he "skated into a biting wind until supper and the moon had
risen". None of these authors accuse the others of plagiarism
even though there is a great (inevitable) similarity in the
description of the event.
Of course this is history, which doesn't change. No matter how
many times the Earps walk down Fremont Street-- whether a
book is written about it four years ago or 112 years from now--
they're going to bump into the Clantons and McLaury's at the OK
corral.
But the same principle applies.
It's nothing more than commonly occurring situations-- endlessly
retold in similar words and phrases by different writers.
The fact is, similar situations occur frequently in poker, and
this fact is going to be mirrored in poker writing. How many times
have we read, in one form or another, the advice that (quote)
"good players should not make comments that humiliate a bad
player and drive him from the game"? 10,000 times maybe? A lot
of writerly repetition occurs in the poker field. (In fact, it
would be considered an unacceptable level of redundancy in a lot
of fields, except for two things: (1) we need to keep getting
these ideas pounded into our heads, and (2) newbies are
always coming into the system who haven't read them before.
As to the 'Stone-killer' reference, that seems a pretty thin reed
to hang the rest of it on.
Just my 2 cents,
Wayno
raliiduul urchanii
speak a particular dialect of English. Not all blacks speak
the same way, but some speak "black English".
Hollywood grabbed the term, for a Charles Bronson movie,
(and failed to put emphasis upon "STONE" , during
pronunciation of the term).
After that movie, the term drifted into the general population,
and began being used, non-specifically, a sort of general
"phrase of discription".
"Stone killer" actually means, a cold-hearted, ruthless killer."
As used by Chicago blacks (because of the Capone era),
the term has no other meaning, nor connotation.
When used, the speaker is specifically, referring to a killer.
timmer
Hey Thanks I thought the phrase "stone killer referred to one of those
wearing stripes and chained in long lines wielding sledge hammers at the
side of texas FM roads up to the late 70's . they were also known as pea
pickers orsoy bean boys . oh well times they are a changing. The drive
to huntsville will never be the same with out those stone killing cotton
pickers to spit on.
timmer
Bill Bradley
"Gary Carson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:3bff5ff1....@news.mindspring.com...
RazzO
Noted that your last post was on...
Sept 10, 2001
Hope all is well............................
http://www.razzo.com/timmer.jpg
razzo
timmer wrote:
> to huntsville will never be the same with out those stone killing cotton
> pickers to spit on.
>
> timmer
--
Ed Brayton
As strange as it feels to defend Carson, I agree. That's the only
thing in all of that complaint that isn't just standard poker
language. Never heard the term stone killer. And yes I can believe
that an editor would overhear a phrase and insert it, especially if
it's a good buzzword like that. In the instance of one phrase, I think
the accusations being made are vastly overblown. In fact, every other
accusation of plagiarism is just so downright stupid that one has to
wonder why Schoonmaker would put them out there and not know that he
would be laughed at for it.
Ed Brayton
North Shore Mike
(Alannschoonmaker) wrote:
(some hokey non-examples of "plagiarism")
You gotta be f****ing kidding me.
North Shore Mike
http://www3telus.net/northshoremike/northshoremike
Photos, trip reports, quotes, and other lame crap.
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Jd00123
>From: Larr...@charter.net (Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips)
I saw an interesting theory one time that stated something to the effect that
if a monkey randomly pounded away at the keys of a typewriter long enough,he
would eventually come up with War and Peace or Mein kampf or any other work you
pick.Of course he might have to do this for like a zillion years or so.I
suggest Alan retain a lawyer to prepare for the possibility of this monkey
possibly plagerizing his book.
Bill Reich
<snip quotes from a dictionary, etc.)
Well, I have read your allegations. Read Gary's book, borrowed and
read your book. I duno. I don't see any plagiarism. He addressed some
of the same ideas in much of the same vocabulary. What was he going to
do? Invent new vocabulary? You didn't. You want him to be punished for
using the same common vocabulary you used, and expanding on it a
little.
Of course, you CAN sue. ANYONE can sue. But I wouold give you good
odds on your winning.
--
Will in New Haven
"Spike Hounus Wagner? It would take an imprudent man to spike Wagner."
Ty Cobb,
Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips
>>Carson's plagiarism
>>From: Larr...@charter.net (Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips)
>
>I saw an interesting theory one time that stated something to the effect that
>if a monkey randomly pounded away at the keys of a typewriter long enough,he
>would eventually come up with War and Peace--
I saw an interesting theory one time that the whole theme of
any book can be summed up by the first word in it and the last
word in it. But I don't have either book here so I can't check
this theory out.
Wayno
AJohn808
"Zen.........truth". hmmmm, you might have something there.
Peg Smith
(Wayno) Phillips) writes:
>A lot
> of writerly repetition occurs in the poker field.
Ya sure got a way with words, baby.
Peg :)
Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips
Peg- where you been...
And what happened to PegSmithNow
Did you've the 'now' surgically removed from
your name er something--
And where you at-- did'you move?
Are you one of those southern types now relocated like
that Philips guy?
signed,
Stumped in Poughkeepsie
xxoo
Jaeger T. Cat
news:20011123223859...@mb-mh.news.cs.com:
> The Oxford English Dictionary defines "plagiarize" as: "To take and use
> as one's own the thoughts, writings, or inventions of another." It does
Which Gary didn't do. Now run along Alan.
> Have you ever heard an author claim that he did not know the meaning of
> an important term in his own book?
> Alan Schoonmaker
No, but I just saw a supposed author reduced to babbling
and raving. Does that count?
--
Eric J. Holtman (Jaeger T. Cat)
http://www.ericholtman.com
PGP Key: http://www.ericholtman.com/pgp.txt
Niven's Law 1a: Never throw shit at an armed man.
Niven's Law 1b: Never stand next to a man throwing shit at an armed man.
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Peg Smith
(Wayno) Phillips) writes:
> Peg- where you been...
> And what happened to PegSmithNow
> Did you've the 'now' surgically removed from
> your name er something--
> And where you at-- did'you move?
> Are you one of those southern types now relocated like
> that Philips guy?
I've left Spokane; traveled through Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Nebraska, Kansas,
Iowa, Missouri, Arkansas, Tennessee and Mississippi; and settled in Iowa. (Who
says one automatically acquires wisdom with age?) My e-mail address is still
the same, so keep sending the jokes and cartoons.
Peg
Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips
>I've left Spokane; traveled through Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Nebraska, Kansas,
>Iowa, Missouri, Arkansas, Tennessee and Mississippi; and settled in Iowa.
Wow
> My e-mail address is still
>the same, so keep sending the jokes and cartoons.
ok
Janne Raevaara
> Welcome back, timmer.
> Noted that your last post was on...
>
> Sept 10, 2001
> Hope all is well............................
>
> http://www.razzo.com/timmer.jpg
>
why he's lying low.
LouKrieger
From: pegsm...@aol.com (Peg Smith)
I've left Spokane; traveled through Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Nebraska, Kansas,
Iowa, Missouri, Arkansas, Tennessee and Mississippi; and settled in Iowa. (Who
says one automatically acquires wisdom with age?) <<
So now you're full of midwestern revelations and you've acquired cold toes too.
Keep flopping aces,
Lou Krieger
Michael K
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2001 20:57:19 -0800, Terrence Chan
> <terren...@telus.net> wrote:
>
> >On 24 Nov 2001 03:38:59 GMT, alannsch...@cs.com
> >(Alannschoonmaker) wrote:
> >
> if he had
> >>not been so viciously critical. However, it seems absurd for him to
> attack my
> >>ideas and me personally, then turn around and publish the same ideas
> in very
> >>similar words.
> >
> >your book. However, I would like to know, did Gary attack
> >the same ideas that you claim he has plagiarized from your
> >book? Or did he attack other ideas in your book? If they
> >were other ideas, why is this absurd?
> >
>
> Attack is a strong word. What I said was that I thought it was
> simplistic -- pretty much assuming two liniar dimentions can meausre
> all the important player characteristics. I wouldn't be critical of a
> long magazine article that did that.
>
> But, if you devote a book on that subject and don't give signigicant
> attention to other dimensions (such as tricky/straigtforward and
> weak/tough then you've dropped the ball. He also has an implicit
> assumption of linearlty that would be okay for an article but more
> simplistic than needed in a book.
>
> Based only on the measurements he uses in his book I don't see a good
> way to distinguish between a maniac and a player on FPS -- and I think
> they are different.
>
> His book would have made a nice magazine article -- maybe a long one
> in 3 parts.
>
> And, he's bald.
I wouldn't be making fun of someones hair (or lack of it) if I were you.
QuadNines
First, he asked, "Would you regard [Gary Carson's] actions as
plagiarism?"
Before answering that question, let's look at what several poker
writers have said about one of Alan's extreme playing styles--the
maniac.
Lee Jones: "Loose-aggressive--the 'maniac.' . . . He too plays a lot
of hands, but he likes to raise a lot. He'll raise with any ace, or
any two suited cards. If there is a re-raise behind him, he'll often
say, 'Cap it!' with little regard for his cards."[1]
Lou Krieger: "Let's describe the characteristics of a typical maniac.
If you bet, he'll raise--even when he doesn't have a hand to support
his actions. If you check, he'll bet."[2]
S&M: "A maniac is a person who not only plays much more than his
appropriate share of hands, but also constantly raises and reraises,
even though the hand he holds does not warrant it."[3]
Alan: "Extreme Style 9,9: The Maniac (extremely loose-aggressive).
Maniacs raise, reraise, and even cap (make the last raise allowed)
with hands you should throw away."[4]
Gary: "Someone who is extremely loose and aggressive is called a
'maniac' because he will bet or raise on just about anything."[5]
To answer Alan's question: No, I don't regard Gary's actions as
plagiarism. I don't believe any of the above authors crossed that
line. If Alan's standards are strict enough for him to accuse Gary of
plagiarism, however, then I think Alan needs to take a closer look at
his own writings.
Alan's second question was, "If a student took these actions on a term
paper, what grade would you give?"
I'd give Gary's paragraph on pp. 197-198 a B. I'd give Alan's
writings on pp. 73-78 a C (a decent editor easily could have improved
it to a B).
------------------
[1] Lee Jones, WINNING LOW LIMIT HOLD'EM, 1994, pp. 128-129.
[2] Lou Krieger, MORE HOLD'EM EXCELLENCE, 1997, p. 195.
[3] David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth, HOLD 'EM POKER FOR ADVANCED
PLAYERS, 1999, p. 130.
[4] Alan Schoonmaker, THE PSYCHOLOGY OF POKER, 2000, p. 77.
[5] Gary Carson, THE COMPLETE BOOK OF HOLD 'EM POKER, 2001, p. 198.
QuadNines
First, he asked, "Do you believe Gary's claim that his editor inserted
this material?"
I have more reason to believe GCA's claim that Ray Zee cheated at
poker than I have to believe Alan's claim that Gary's editor did not
insert this material. Alan offerred nothing to support his
allegation. If Alan wants to know whether Gary's editor inserted the
paragraph in question, why doesn't he simply ask that editor? If Gary
lied, then his ass is hanging out there exposed--and it's not pretty.
;)
Second, Alan asked, "If the editor inserted it, is Gary still
responsible for it?"
Suppose Gary's editor inserted a paragraph verbatim from Jim Glenn's
PROGRAMMED POKER. Should Gary be held responsible for plagiarism if
he had never read that book? No. I think the editor should be held
responsible.
Suppose Gary's editor inserted a paragraph verbatim from Alan's book.
Should Gary be held responsible for not detecting the plagiarism if he
had read that book? It depends. Was the paragraph particularly
memorable, for example? I'm sure I would be unable to recognize most
paragraphs from most poker books I've read.
Third, Alan asked, "Have you ever heard an author claim that he did
not know the meaning of an important term in his own book?"
No, I cannot say that I have. On the other hand, I don't consider
"stone killer" to be an important term.
Bill Reich
And the oreos and potato chips. It is tough to email junk food but I
keep trying. Iowa?!?
Steve Eisenstein
retainer to see you but I'll teach you to play poker better on top of the
representation.
"Gregory Raymer" <ray...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:ApOL7.127198$WW.79...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Gary Carson <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
> news:3bff5ff1....@news.mindspring.com...
> > To me, the most interesting aspect of all this is that on Monday Alan
> > posted a substantail portion of one of my rgp posts to 2+2. Without
> > permision.
> >
> > I emailed Chuck telling him the post had been copied without my
> > permission and asked him to remove it.
> >
> > Any lawyers want to represent me on this?
>
> Sure, glad to.
>
> My rate is $250/hour, with a $10,000 retainer. As soon as your check
> clears, I'll file the papers.
>
> ;-)
>
> Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
>
>
Peg Smith
(LouKrieger) writes:
>So now you're full of midwestern revelations and you've acquired cold toes
>too.
Midwestern revelations? Get real, Lou. The most profound insights in Iowa are
those involving hog and corn prices. The cold toes are very real, though.
Peg
Peg Smith
willre...@yahoo.com (Bill Reich) writes:
>My e-mail address is still
>> the same, so keep sending the jokes and cartoons.
>>
>> Peg
>
>And the oreos and potato chips. It is tough to email junk food but I
>keep trying.
Bless you.
>Iowa?!?
Long, tragic (but ultimately, boring) story.
Peg