PLO: A Risky Business!
Ken Lovering
1st 3 players fold. 4th makes it $6 to go.
everyone fold to me in the small blind with: AdKcAs5h
I know......nothing but a pair. You should fold this hand. But the raiser
has been playing too many hands.
I call. Big blind calls.
Flop: JhAhQh
I bet $10. BB calls. Opener raises to: $57.10
I should fold............I call with what looks like 4 outs; the ace and
the three tens that aren't hearts. Another 2 outs each to the queen &
jack, maybe. But at this point, I have the best hand.
Big blind folds.
Opponent has: Td9d2hJh.........now where are the four legs to that hand?
Raising preflop?? Even his flush draws are weak.........
$144.10 in the pot.
Turn: [Jh,Ah,Qh]Ks
Well now.........I'm screwed. Hopefully.....very much so..........he's on
a flush draw and will take my bet as the made straight & fold.......I
dream alot.
I bet $42.90 and am all in............Opponent calls.
I have 9 outs.......I'm a 4.1:1 dog.....4.1x$42 = $168. I'm not even
getting sufficient pot odds.
I rivered him though when another Q fell.
So, why am I posting this? Well, it's because who I was up against....whom
I didn't even realize I was up against until it was all over and I looked
to see who would raise with such trash preflop with such
trash.........Tiger123
Tiger123, whom I always look for at Atlantic City.........I bumped into
him on-line.............
Now it's Tiger's turn to come looking to get his money back :-)
Best regards,
Ken
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Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com
Gaash
money by donating what you sit with to charity.
GrouchySmurf1002
> Flop: JhAhQh
> Opponent has: Td9d2hJh
Two Jh in one hand!!! I'd get your money out now.
BlakeC
you were playing against a made hand, throwing all in on a draw with only
a few outs
1 ace, 3 jacks, 3 queens, 2 king.
when he flips over you are mad for him raiseing pre-flop, but you cold
called a raise pre-flop with only a pair, no flush draws and a remote
straight draw.
What were you thinking! You won on pure luck, nothing more. T
Oliver Tse
With AAxx in the blinds, I would have re-raised the size of the pot to try
to 1) make sure the big blind folds, and 2) blast the raiser out of there
and take his money before the flop.
A re-raise from the blinds usually means one thing to someone who knows
how to play PLO: AAxx.
PLO is a risky game, but is also a mathematical game that is driven by
hand value. A good player knows that he can't get away with too many
bluffs.
On Apr 6 2004 9:43AM, Ken Lovering wrote:
BlakeC
Didn't even see that,
yeah, stay away from those rigged games!
John Forsberg
> Blinds are 1/2
> 1st 3 players fold. 4th makes it $6 to go.
> everyone fold to me in the small blind with: AdKcAs5h
> I know......nothing but a pair. You should fold this hand. But the raiser
> has been playing too many hands.
How deep is the money? Re-raise if you can get more than 1/3 of your
chips in, then usually move in on the flop. If the money is a lot deeper
than that, maybe you should fold. On the flop I'd usually check-fold to
any reasonably sized bet.
golfman317
at the table seemed to be "TaintedRogue". He was playing three tables and
never missed a beat. Shortly after I sat down, he left the table. I
didn't mean to scare you away Ken ;-)
-Kevin
(First night playing PLO +$1.25...Off to a good start :-)
Ken Lovering
Never say ya. 3 tables keeps you busy. I won't be doing that anymore at
PLO.
It's just too damn risky!
Ken Lovering
What can I say, I'm a newbie at PLO.
On Apr 6 2004 4:50PM, Gaash wrote:
> PLO is risky, but playing the way you do, you have a better shot of winning
> money by donating what you sit with to charity.
_________________________________________________________________
Ken Lovering
Ken Lovering
> If he was on a flush draw, you were beat unless the board paired,
It was Jc on the flop. So he had the flush & straight draw.
> you were playing against a made hand, throwing all in on a draw with only
> a few outs
> 1 ace, 3 jacks, 3 queens, 2 king.
The turn gave him the straight. So I had 2 outs to the Tens that were not
a heart. 1 ace. 2 jacks,3 queens & 2 kings. 9 outs. 4.1:1 dog.
I do believe my post was quite clear on who I thought the fish was in the
hand. If not, let me spell it out: TaintedRogue
> when he flips over you are mad for him raiseing pre-flop,
No I wasn't.
> but you cold
> called a raise pre-flop with only a pair, no flush draws and a remote
> straight draw.
But I had pocket aces!............Holdem Mentality.
>
> What were you thinking! You won on pure luck, nothing more. T
I know damn well that is what I was expressing in my post.
Ken Lovering
> Why did you just CALL the pre-flop raise?
Because I believed, that although I had the best hand, he probably had 14
or more outs, making him the favorite to win by the river.
>
> With AAxx in the blinds, I would have re-raised the size of the pot to try
> to 1) make sure the big blind folds, and 2) blast the raiser out of there
> and take his money before the flop.
I think my hand was mediocre at best. I had no flush draws to my aces. The
5 doesn't go with the K. I called because of my hold em mentality.
>
> A re-raise from the blinds usually means one thing to someone who knows
> how to play PLO: AAxx.
>
> PLO is a risky game, but is also a mathematical game that is driven by
> hand value. A good player knows that he can't get away with too many
> bluffs.
You think if I had raised the pot preflop he would have folded?
If he didn't, he sure wasn't folding on the flop with 9 outs to a flush &
6 to the straight..........unless he was concerned about me having a
bigger flush draw.
I didn't raise preflop, because I didn't think someone would bet $6 to try
an win $3 on a bluff from mid-position.
Guess I learned something.
Ken Lovering
How long have you been playing?
Lessons available?
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John Forsberg
> That's the way I see it now :-)
> How long have you been playing?
> Lessons available?
A year. Lessons are free, and are basically worth it.
John Forsberg
> On Apr 6 2004 5:07PM, Oliver Tse wrote:
>
>
>>Why did you just CALL the pre-flop raise?
>
>
> Because I believed, that although I had the best hand, he probably had 14
> or more outs, making him the favorite to win by the river.
No hand is favourite heads-up against AAxx except AAyy, where yy beats
xx. The chip positions and relative quality of post-flop play might make
AAxx a dog though.
In multi-way pots the value of AA drops way down. And it's not nearly as
big a favourite heads-up as in hold'em, something like 60% usually I think.
Oliver Tse
> On Apr 6 2004 5:07PM, Oliver Tse wrote:
>
> > Why did you just CALL the pre-flop raise?
>
> Because I believed, that although I had the best hand, he probably had 14
> or more outs, making him the favorite to win by the river.
You don't know before the flop how many outs the raiser would have had
after the flop.
Neither does the raiser.
> > With AAxx in the blinds, I would have re-raised the size of the pot to try
> > to 1) make sure the big blind folds, and 2) blast the raiser out of there
> > and take his money before the flop.
>
> I think my hand was mediocre at best. I had no flush draws to my aces. The
> 5 doesn't go with the K. I called because of my hold em mentality.
With AAxx, you want to win the pot before the flop, or play the flop
against at most 1 opponent (which is dangerous enough because one opponent
is holding 4 cards, for 6 possible 2-card combinations).
> > A re-raise from the blinds usually means one thing to someone who knows
> > how to play PLO: AAxx.
> >
> > PLO is a risky game, but is also a mathematical game that is driven by
> > hand value. A good player knows that he can't get away with too many
> > bluffs.
>
> You think if I had raised the pot preflop he would have folded?
Regardless of whether the raiser folds to your re-raise or not, you need
to protect your AAxx by blasting the big blind out of the hand with a
pot-sized re-raise.
You don't want the big blind to see the flop cheaply.
If the raiser decides to call you with his hand (because he has "position"
on you and he thinks he can outdraw your AAxx with JT92 doublesuited, a
hand with 3 connecting cards and a dangler), then more power to him.
> If he didn't, he sure wasn't folding on the flop with 9 outs to a flush &
> 6 to the straight..........unless he was concerned about me having a
> bigger flush draw.
True.
But you want to put the raiser to the test BEFORE the flop with a
pot-sized raise in order to charge him a ton of money to see the flop.
(You are also putting the big blind to the test as well.)
If you don't like the flop, you can always check and fold.
> I didn't raise preflop, because I didn't think someone would bet $6 to try
> an win $3 on a bluff from mid-position.
> Guess I learned something.
Some players will bring in from mid-position with a minimum raise rather
than call the big blind because they want to make sure big blinds doesn't
gypsy in for free. The raiser may have been that type of player and may
not have been bluffing at all.
GambleAB
> Flop: JhAhQh
> I bet $10. BB calls. Opener raises to: $57.10
> I should fold............I call with what looks like 4 outs; the ace and
> the three tens that aren't hearts. Another 2 outs each to the queen &
> jack, maybe. But at this point, I have the best hand.
> Big blind folds.
> Opponent has: Td9d2hJh.........now where are the four legs to that hand?
> Raising preflop?? Even his flush draws are weak.........
No, no, this makes no sense at all.
He can't have Jh in his hand is the board is JhAhQh.
So he either had a different J in his hand, or the board wasn't as you
posted.
If the board IS as you posted, you should have folded. Any two hearts
beats you unless one of your 8 outs falls, and even if they do, 6 of them
give you a non-nut hand.
Ken Lovering
The Jc was on the table, Jh in his hand.
JonCooke
> big a favourite heads-up as in hold'em, something like 60% usually I think.
Actually not true.
Biggest earn all in preflop with AAxx is usually in a 4 handed pot
JonCooke
Vic in London.
Basically, if someone is known to only raise with aces, you reraise to
isolate them with position and some connected double suited hand, they
3 bet you preflop, and you take the flop.
If you understand how they play post flop - which flops they will fold
against (if any), you can make a lot of money against someone playing
deep money like this.
John Forsberg
Ok, I was thinking of even more multihanded pots than that. I've had
some all-ins pre-flop against 8 people. Then I realized that wasn't
really a good idea. At any rate it isn't like hold'em where you'll
always want to pile on extra people when you got AA all-in pre-flop.
John Forsberg
Not really sure why you're replying to me with this, since I think
that's basically what I said. Still, I'm sure that you're a better omaha
player than me, so keep those posts on the subject coming.
NJ Rounder
Tiger123 online is the same Tiger that frequents the $6/$12 and $10/$20 in
AC? The heavy set guy with the annoying little tiger figurine he puts on
top of his ever-dwindling chip stack? The guy who always brags about
making "$X per hour playing this game" where X ranges from 27 to 48
depending on his current session.
Good to know...
NJ Rounder
JonCooke
> that's basically what I said. Still, I'm sure that you're a better omaha
> player than me, so keep those posts on the subject coming.
I was agreeing with you, but adding an example of how a strong player
might outplay an aces lover.
Successful omaha play is very game dependent, and many different
styles can be effective, as of course you know.
Game 1.
You arrive at 2pm, and the low level rocks are all sat in the game.
Their method of play is tight. They only play strong, connected
starting hands, only bet the nuts, call with big draws and fold unless
they have the nuts or a big draw.
If a fish sits down with them he has no chance.
A strong aggressive player has a field day. He continually isolates
them, plays all the scare cards, and never loses a big pot - he knows
the second best hand is worthless if the rocks want to bet big.
Game 2.
Later on the gamblers arrive, and you move to a bigger game.
These guys can't help but take off a draw, and they love to trap when
they flop big. They note that you make moves and they are capable of
some surprising calls. You revert to playing only high quality
starting hands and you stop semi-bluffing in late position - take your
free cards instead.
Game 3.
Tight game full of strong aggressive pros - playing deep.
Avoid this game until you are an excellent player. Almost all pots
will be heads up or three handed in raised pots.
If you play, you need to do all the things they are doing.
Playing quality starting hands in position.
Mixing up your play with made hands and draws; making moves at pots;
defending against moves, especially in position.
Multiway or in big pots omaha is a nut game. Heads up or in very tight
games, it is not.
Kevin Cline
> Blinds are 1/2
> 1st 3 players fold. 4th makes it $6 to go.
> everyone fold to me in the small blind with: AdKcAs5h
> I know......nothing but a pair. You should fold this hand. But the raiser
> has been playing too many hands.
No, you should reraise. A pair of aces is a heads-up favorite against
almost every other hand.
> I call. Big blind calls.
> Flop: [corrected to Jc Ah Qh]
> I bet $10.
> BB calls. Opener raises to: $57.10
> I should fold............
If opener has KT you are 3-1 underdog. Otherwise you are significant
favorite, even against a the worst possible case: (Q/J)T98 + flush
draw. In the actual case you were a 60-40 favorite after the flop.
Top set is a pretty big hand even against big draws. Oh a flop of
Ad9h8h, you need a 3-card wrap like JT7 and a flush draw to be ahead
of AA26.
Even QJT + flush draw is only even money against the set.
> Turn: [Jh,Ah,Qh]Ks
> Well now.........I'm screwed. Hopefully.....very much so..........he's on
> a flush draw
This seems inconsistent. If you thought there was a real chance he
didn't have KT you should have reraised all-in on the flop, instead of
waiting until a really bad card fell, and then putting the money in
anyway.
Ken Lovering
> "Ken Lovering" <anon...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:<h7Bcc.1621711$iA2.1...@news.easynews.com>...
> > Blinds are 1/2
> > 1st 3 players fold. 4th makes it $6 to go.
> > everyone fold to me in the small blind with: AdKcAs5h
> > I know......nothing but a pair. You should fold this hand. But the raiser
> > has been playing too many hands.
>
> No, you should reraise. A pair of aces is a heads-up favorite against
> almost every other hand.
>
> > I call. Big blind calls.
> > Flop: [corrected to Jc Ah Qh]
>
> > I bet $10.
>
> > BB calls. Opener raises to: $57.10
> > I should fold............
>
> If opener has KT you are 3-1 underdog. Otherwise you are significant
> favorite, even against a the worst possible case: (Q/J)T98 + flush
> draw. In the actual case you were a 60-40 favorite after the flop.
Kevin,
Tiger has 15 outs; 9 to the flush and 6 to the straight. He will make his
hand 54% of the time. When he makes his hand, I will have one chance to
make a house; 9 outs, as he has one of the cards. So 9/46 = 20%
.54 * .20 = .11...........54 - .11 = .43; 43% of the time he'll make his
hand without me improving. If he has 2 of the cards on the board, I make
my house 17% of the time: .54 * .17 = .09; .54 - .09 = 45% of the time
he'll make his hand without me making a house.
Is that how you figure I'm the favorite after the flop?
But this is based on from flop to river. The betting is from: flop to turn
to river.
>
> Top set is a pretty big hand even against big draws. Oh a flop of
> Ad9h8h, you need a 3-card wrap like JT7 and a flush draw to be ahead
> of AA26.
> Even QJT + flush draw is only even money against the set.
>
> > Turn: [Jh,Ah,Qh]Ks
> > Well now.........I'm screwed. Hopefully.....very much so..........he's on
> > a flush draw
>
> This seems inconsistent. If you thought there was a real chance he
> didn't have KT you should have reraised all-in on the flop, instead of
> waiting until a really bad card fell, and then putting the money in
> anyway.
I was going to call anyway if he put me all in. I should bet in case he is
not drawing to the nuts and might fold?
Ken Lovering
Are you saying AcAd7c2s is a big earner in a 4 way pot?
The book I have says even a pair of aces needs to improve on the flop in
Omaha
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JonCooke
> John,
> Are you saying AcAd7c2s is a big earner in a 4 way pot?
> The book I have says even a pair of aces needs to improve on the flop in
> Omaha
I'm talking about all in coups.
If you get all in with aces preflop, you make the most money with 3
callers.
Since I made that perfectly clear, I don't understand what relevance
your comment has.
Ken Lovering
Player 1 bets the pot
Player 2 raises the max
Player 3 raises the max
If I only have $48 dollars left & have AcAd7c2s, you're saying that's a
good enough hand to go up against the four hands their raises represent?
I'm a newbie at Omaha, but this seems to be a more appropriate way to play
it:
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TaintedRogue [As 2c 7s Ad]
ROKAVLON: raises $0.25 to $0.50
montanna23: calls $0.50
paolinio: calls $0.50
Bulldawg2949: calls $0.50
germany: calls $0.50
TaintedRogue: calls $0.40
LEOPARDS: calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** [Ah 9s 5h]
TaintedRogue: checks
LEOPARDS: checks
ROKAVLON: checks
montanna23: checks
paolinio: bets $0.75
Bulldawg2949: raises $4.85 to $5.60
germany: folds
TaintedRogue: raises $15.30 to $20.90
LEOPARDS: folds
ROKAVLON: folds
montanna23: folds
paolinio: folds
Bulldawg2949: calls $15.30
*** TURN *** [Ah 9s 5h] [Td]
TaintedRogue: bets $6.30 and is all-in
Bulldawg2949: calls $3 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [Ah 9s 5h Td] [Qc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TaintedRogue: shows [As 2c 7s Ad] (three of a kind, Aces)
Bulldawg2949: shows [Jh 6c 9d Ac] (two pair, Aces and Nines)
TaintedRogue collected $49.60 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $52.05 | Rake $2.45
Board [Ah 9s 5h Td Qc]
Seat 2: TaintedRogue (small blind) showed [As 2c 7s Ad] and won ($49.60)
with three of a kind, Aces
Seat 3: LEOPARDS (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: ROKAVLON folded on the Flop
Seat 5: montanna23 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: paolinio folded on the Flop
Seat 8: Bulldawg2949 showed [Jh 6c 9d Ac] and lost with two pair, Aces and
Nines
Seat 9: germany (button) folded on the Flop
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