Pot Odds and drawing hands?
Johan Steyn
I've only very recently started playing, and have a question regarding pot
odds with drawing hands. The site I'm playing at mostly do pot limit or no
limit games, and I often see people betting the size of the pot on the flop.
After reading a bit on the net, apparantly it's ok to do so, even with flush
or straight drawing hands. I'm not sure how that can be - betting the pot
and somebody calling implies you're getting 2:1 (right?) However, your
chances of hitting your draw is almost always worse than that. Is it wrong
to bet so aggresively with drawing hands, and if so how should you play them
on the flop?
Thanks
Johan
Gary Carson
On Feb 12 2006 11:06 PM, Johan Steyn wrote:
> Hi all
>
> I've only very recently started playing, and have a question regarding pot
> odds with drawing hands. The site I'm playing at mostly do pot limit or no
> limit games, and I often see people betting the size of the pot on the flop.
> After reading a bit on the net, apparantly it's ok to do so, even with flush
> or straight drawing hands. I'm not sure how that can be - betting the pot
> and somebody calling implies you're getting 2:1 (right?)
Nope you're getting even money.
>However, your
> chances of hitting your draw is almost always worse than that. Is it wrong
> to bet so aggresively with drawing hands, and if so how should you play them
> on the flop?
Betting has nothing to do with pot odds.
YOu might want to do a lot of reading in the archives at grops.google.com,
search rec.gambling.poker for topics like "betting draws" or similar language.
>
> Thanks
>
> Johan
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
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Canadian Monkey
With Pot Odd questions you have to be a little more specific however; there are
reasons to bet the size of the pot in "some" circumstances. Those include ( but
are not limited to ) Taking the pot with your bet right there, disguising your
draw hands in the right situation, getting a free card on the turn if your
position is right and there is always the implied odds.
Hope that was a little help. Cheers.
On Feb 12 2006 11:06 PM, Johan Steyn wrote:
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Nick Wool
It is wrong to ALWAYS play so agressively with your flush draws, just as it is
wrong to always play any particular hand the same way. You'll be too
predictable, and far too easy to read. But in general, there's nothing that
much wrong with betting 3/4 pot to pot on a good draw, as long as you are
prepared to muck the hand if you are raised strongly. By betting, you are
getting FE, and also implied odds should you hit. These combined should
compensate for the lack of expressed odds in your bet.
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Nick Wool
On Feb 13 2006 5:35 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Feb 12 2006 11:06 PM, Johan Steyn wrote:
>
> > Hi all
> >
> > I've only very recently started playing, and have a question regarding pot
> > odds with drawing hands. The site I'm playing at mostly do pot limit or no
> > limit games, and I often see people betting the size of the pot on the flop.
> > After reading a bit on the net, apparantly it's ok to do so, even with flush
> > or straight drawing hands. I'm not sure how that can be - betting the pot
> > and somebody calling implies you're getting 2:1 (right?)
>
> Nope you're getting even money.
OK, time for me to eat humble pie here, mr carson, but this is confusing. If
the pot is $10, you betting the pot, AND someone calling surely means that you
are risking $10 to win $20, odds of 2 to 1? Where did the figrue of evens come
from?
If the bet was mean as a pure bluff, in that you do not wish the other guy to
call, yes, you'd be getting even money on a pot bet if the other guy folds. But
the OP did say: 'betting the pot and somebody calling implies you're getting
2:1'. so how did you get even money?
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Gary Carson
On Feb 13 2006 12:01 AM, Nick Wool wrote:
>
>
>
> On Feb 13 2006 5:35 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 12 2006 11:06 PM, Johan Steyn wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all
> > >
> > > I've only very recently started playing, and have a question regarding pot
> > > odds with drawing hands. The site I'm playing at mostly do pot limit or no
> > > limit games, and I often see people betting the size of the pot on the
> > > flop.
> > > After reading a bit on the net, apparantly it's ok to do so, even with
> > > flush
> > > or straight drawing hands. I'm not sure how that can be - betting the pot
> > > and somebody calling implies you're getting 2:1 (right?)
> >
> > Nope you're getting even money.
>
>
> OK, time for me to eat humble pie here, mr carson, but this is confusing. If
> the pot is $10, you betting the pot, AND someone calling surely means that you
> are risking $10 to win $20, odds of 2 to 1? Where did the figrue of evens
> come
> from?
The question was you bet and he calls.
That sequence of events does not change the equity you have in the pot in any
way. If he calls you get even money from his call.
There's no pot odds to a bet, pot odds are about calling.
The caller gets pot odds because he has to put more money into the pot to retain
his equity in the pot.
The bettor doesn't need to bet to retain pot equity, he can just check.
>
> If the bet was mean as a pure bluff, in that you do not wish the other guy to
> call, yes, you'd be getting even money on a pot bet if the other guy folds.
> But
> the OP did say: 'betting the pot and somebody calling implies you're getting
> 2:1'. so how did you get even money?
If you don't want to read the chapter in my holdem book on odds then just search
the google archives for past threads on "bet odds".
If you really want to get picky about it then what matters by the way isn't
whether he calls or not, but the probability of him calling or not. If you know
he's going to call you're just getting even money on the bet.
>
>
>
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
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Randy Hudson
Nick Wool <4307...@recpoker.com> wrote:
> OK, time for me to eat humble pie here, mr carson, but this is confusing. If
> the pot is $10, you betting the pot, AND someone calling surely means that you
> are risking $10 to win $20, odds of 2 to 1?
You're including the existing pot in your odds; but if you hit, you win that
pot anyway. Only the new money being put in by your opponent is the gain
from your bet.
> If the bet was mean as a pure bluff, in that you do not wish the other guy to
> call, yes, you'd be getting even money on a pot bet if the other guy folds.
You get paid even money on your bet for your opponent folding, whether your
draw hits or not; then, if he doesn't fold, you're getting his call money
against your bet money that his hand is inferior at showdown. That's even
money too.
--
Randy Hudson
DAC
The situation is sometimes alot better than you think because of to
important things:
1. Position to get a free card (incase you miss on the turn)
2. Implied odds, you will almost definatly win the pot with a flush, and so
if you bet and get called thats extra winnings, these cancel out a 'bad'
odds call you made.
Your odds of getting a flush are 1 in 3, but there is a second betting round
on the turn!
You are roughly 1 in 6 to hit on the turn, then 1 in 6 to hit on the river
if you miss the turn.
If you have position (ie. you are acting last, and there has only been a
small bet or no bets before you) then you can bet/raise the entire size of
the current pot. So if someone calls you, the total amount in the pot is
your 1/3, plus his 1/3 to call you,.plus 1/3 that was the original pot (any
money you contributed to this original pot doesnt matter, because this isnt
yours anymore). Hence you only put in 1/3 of the pot on your 1 in 3 draw.
If you miss the turn and he bets out you have a big problem, because you
have already put in 1/3 for your 1/3 draw, now you have to put in more? If
you the guy checks on the flop and you bet, then he calls, there is a huge
chance he will just check the turn and you can check the turn and get your
free card. This is why its ok to bet the pot.
But what if they do bet into you?
Take for example this situation. 100$ in pot and you have a flush draw on
flop. It checks around to you and you bet 100$, someone calls 100$, you have
put in 1/3 of the pot money to 1/3 odds, plus you might win more money if
you hit the flush and he calls you on it. This is the implied odds, hence
some people will even bet MORE than the pot!
Say you miss the turn, there is 300$ in the pot. The guy bets out 100$,
should you call? You are 1 in 6 to make it. That is its 100$ to call, but by
calling you are contributing 100$ of what would be a total of 500$, thats 5
to 1 odds. Not good enough, you need 6 to 1 just to break even, better to be
profitiable, especially since your 1/3 draw just went out the window, his
bet here made your 1/3 bet on the flop really really bad. You can see that
even a very smallish bet on the turn is enough to give you really bad odds
not just for your current situation, but for your past bet on the flop!
But lets explore implied odds. Lets say you call the 100$ anyway. 5 times
out of 6 you miss and end up down 500$. The one time you hit there is 500$
in the pot. You need to win another 500$ to make up for the 5 looses. So if
you bet the pot on the river and he calls your odds actually turned out good
because you made alot of money. Of course you must be the judge of it or not
the player is likly to call a huge bet on the river. Most of the time is
better not to assume any implied odds.
What you really want to do is: never bet contribute more than what would be
1/5th of the pot on the flop or turn, unless you definatly have position and
are sure that the other players will check to you on the turn.
minus200(DELETETHIS)
Mark C
make this bet against some people. A rock will call (or raise) if and
only if his hand justifies calling you. I'd say it's good to bet like
this against these people; you have an awful lot of fold equity going
for you.
Conversely, this bet might not be bad against someone who is notably
loose. I'd give two reasons for this:
1) If your flush hits, you're gonna get payed.
2) A loose player might make a horrible call on the flop but adjust his
play on the turn to a stronger bet.
I tend not to bet out into unpredictable players or into multiple
players on the flop without a made hand. I'd much rather wait for a
hand to get paid with.