Limit holdem question
Peter Secor
I have been raising with big pairs TT+ and KJs+. My typical game
features 4+ limpers to me.
Do you like a raise with other pairs? How many limpers before you pop
it with, say, 66?
I'd appreciate your thoughts on the matter as I'm considering doing
some experimenting with style.
Best,
Peter
--
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"There are no strangers at BARGE, just friends we haven't met yet"
FellKnight
> What are your raising standards in low limit holdem on the button?
>
> I have been raising with big pairs TT+ and KJs+. My typical game
> features 4+ limpers to me.
>
> Do you like a raise with other pairs? How many limpers before you pop
> it with, say, 66?
I'll almost never raise with these hands in a game like this. The fact is
that you don't need to inflate a pot in order to get your opponents
married to it in these games. If I raised here, it would be purely a
random play to vary my style against players I played against frequently.
My range in LP against a bunch of limpers would be QJs+, JJ+. I would not
raise any offsuit hands, including AK.
> I'd appreciate your thoughts on the matter as I'm considering doing
> some experimenting with style.
Unfortunately, I cannot help you out there :)
> Best,
>
> Peter
> --
> http://zbigniew.pyrzqxgl.com/bargegeek.html
> A+++ G++ PKR+ PEG- B+ TB ADB++ M+
> www.barge.org
> "There are no strangers at BARGE, just friends we haven't met yet"
Fell
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charrison100
> What are your raising standards in low limit holdem on the button?
>
> I have been raising with big pairs TT+ and KJs+. My typical game
> features 4+ limpers to me.
That's great. I would limp with a wider range and tighten up my raising
range. This allows pots to build with out you having to do a lot. You can
then play them post flop. Hit go hard, miss or think they've hit walk away
only losing one BB.
>
> Do you like a raise with other pairs? How many limpers before you pop
> it with, say, 66?
This game would have the opposite effect on me for limit. The more limpers
in front the smaller my rasing range would get. Now if it was No Limit
then my raising range would get wider as a strong raise is more powerful.
>
> I'd appreciate your thoughts on the matter as I'm considering doing
> some experimenting with style.
Keep in mind your bankroll, experimenting is fine but until you found
something that works drop down a level so if it doesn;t work you don;t
kill your roll.
>
> Best,
>
> Peter
> --
> http://zbigniew.pyrzqxgl.com/bargegeek.html
> A+++ G++ PKR+ PEG- B+ TB ADB++ M+
> www.barge.org
> "There are no strangers at BARGE, just friends we haven't met yet"
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John_Brian_K
> features 4+ limpers to me.
Sounds pretty typical. I may include almost any suited Ace.
> Do you like a raise with other pairs? How many limpers before you pop
> it with, say, 66?
I almost never raise with a PP less than 99 no matter how many limpers
etc. The purpose of raising with PP in LHE is to build pots preflop not
to get people out of the hand. I like smooth calling, hittin my set and
going along with the action most of the time and punishing people on the
turn or river. If you put too much in the pot preflop with a small PP you
are building odds for yourself to call a flop and sometimes turn bet to
try and catch your set. I know that is the purpose, but I have been
getting killed lately at the tables and NOTHING is hitting so I may be
biased right now and trying to limit my loses as opposed to maximizing my
wins.
> I'd appreciate your thoughts on the matter as I'm considering doing
> some experimenting with style.
>
> Best,
>
> Peter
> --
> http://zbigniew.pyrzqxgl.com/bargegeek.html
> A+++ G++ PKR+ PEG- B+ TB ADB++ M+
> www.barge.org
> "There are no strangers at BARGE, just friends we haven't met yet"
A Future Tigers World Series Champions
BOOM byae
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MrBookworm
>
> I have been raising with big pairs TT+ and KJs+. My typical game
> features 4+ limpers to me.
>
> Do you like a raise with other pairs? How many limpers before you pop
> it with, say, 66?
>
> I'd appreciate your thoughts on the matter as I'm considering doing
> some experimenting with style.
Get Gary Carson's book. It's a goldmine for this question.
Dean
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DELETETHIS
you know how all old prop players are--- loose and wild
c
Arccos
"Peter Secor" <pe...@scfrey.com> wrote in message
news:pr0a7459jvvjvpp10...@4ax.com...
> What are your raising standards in low limit holdem on the button?
>
> I have been raising with big pairs TT+ and KJs+. My typical game
> features 4+ limpers to me.
>
> Do you like a raise with other pairs? How many limpers before you pop
> it with, say, 66?
>
> I'd appreciate your thoughts on the matter as I'm considering doing
> some experimenting with style.
>
> Best,
>
> Peter
> --
I will only occassionally raise preflop (and only with excellent hands) in
an already loose passive low limit games. There's three reasons I do this:
1. Raising often preflop scares out players on later hands. Loose passive
players tighten up if they expect you to be raising alot of the hands you
play. If I can get a couple of extra people to play lousy cards preflop,
that's more money for me now and more money as they chase their weak hand on
the turn and river. That's more valuable to me than people paying a single
extra bet preflop.
2. The loose passive players usually aren't going anywhere anyways. They
already feel tied to the hands for putting the first bet in, and I can bet
all I like after the flop and they're still staying in 3/4s of the time.
3. I don't want to give them better pot odds. If they're chasing two
pair/three-of-a-kind or an open ended straight flush, I want them to make
the mistake of calling when they should have folded. If they're calling when
they should have called, I lose money. The late game mistakes make me more
money than the preflop raise.
As far as middle pairs in a loose passive low limit game, the only way I
would play them is in late position with many callers, no raise to me, and
I would usually only limp in. I'd hope to get a 3 of a kind on the flop
without a straight opportunity or 3 card flush showing. That's not very many
outs. If someone raises and I don't have the trips yet (or I do with a
straight/flush showing), I fold (assuming the pot odds make it so). The only
benefit of raising preflop is hopeing that if I don't get it, I can limp the
flop (since the passives wait for me flop raise) and see the turn card for
free. I'd be interested in hearing how others would play middle pair in
loose passive.
When I play against loose passives with a single maniac bettor, I'll raise
more often if he has folded, since my #1 doesn't apply unless nobody is
really aggressive at the table. He's already shut me out of that money, so I
mine as well put something extra in with the best of it. But again only with
excellent hands.
More than one loony and I leave... I don't want to get raised-bounced, I
want to be the one doing the bouncing.
A Man Beaten by Jacks
wrote:
>What are your raising standards in low limit holdem on the button?
>I have been raising with big pairs TT+ and KJs+. My typical game
>features 4+ limpers to me.
>Do you like a raise with other pairs? How many limpers before you pop
>it with, say, 66?
If 5 will be seeing the flop, I pop it with 55+ at least sometimes.
Similarly, suited connectors are worth the occasional raise. Since
nobody is going away postflop and I'm playing either to hit a set or a
big draw (or a monster), I wouldn't do this more than half the time.
Less frequently I'd raise with suited trash (2-3%) and even less
frequently with completely random shit (1% or so), at least if playing
against people I'm likely to play again. If not (i.e. online on a
larger site), I don't bother, since it's throwing away too much money
for too little reward.
>I'd appreciate your thoughts on the matter as I'm considering doing
>some experimenting with style.
Connectors, one, and two-gappers are worth playing around with to add
some variety. Similarly, the small and middle pairs. Except for a
very few metagame "bad plays," though, I wouldn't overdo it. With 5+
players, it isn't even really a tragedy to see a massively multiway
pot capped preflop with one of these hands, especially with position.
A Man Beaten by Jacks
<a11...@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
>On Jul 9 2008 2:34 PM, Peter Secor wrote:
>> What are your raising standards in low limit holdem on the button?
>> I have been raising with big pairs TT+ and KJs+. My typical game
>> features 4+ limpers to me.
>That's great. I would limp with a wider range and tighten up my raising
>range.
I wouldn't so much tighten it up as CHANGE it. I'd be a lot less
likely to raise with unsuited paint that is less likely to be good
just by hitting top pair, and more likely to raise with pairs and
suited connectors, at least when at least 5 people are seeing a flop.
With 4 or less, I'm going to be raising only with the hands that are
likely to win with little improvement and limping with the rest.
If there are 4 limpers to you, and this is usual, given players in the
blinds who are normal for this game, you're usually going to be seeing
the flop with 5+ people.
I'm going to limp a LOT on the button, though, generally with at least
high-card suited or high-card reasonable kicker, any pair, anything
suited above 54 or so or connectors with a 9 or up in them. At least
sometimes. The thing about mixing these hands in is you shouldn't
always play the marginal hands. The closer they are to a "proper"
range, the more frequently you should give them a shot. You should
generally NEVER or only very rarely play hands with absolutely nothing
to recommend them.
I agree with the general proposition that you should only rarely (or
even never) slowplay big hands in LHE, but play marginal hands
sometimes, and small and marginal hands faster than normally justified
to mix things up. And when mixing it up with plays that are
marginally -EV compared to the optimal play, keep the amount of money
you're spending to create an impression reasonably low. Raising on
the button with 54s with 6 players to the flop is unlikely to be much
of a mistake, but will make quite an impression if you show it down.
Doing the same heads-up is less excellent. Raising with marginal high
cards heads-up is less of a mistake than doing it in a massively
multiway pot. The odds of actually winning are higher, even if you're
raising into a better hand, and similarly, it will make an impression.
Travel A
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Re: Limit holdem question
Group: rec.gambling.poker
Date: Wed, Jul 9, 2008, 6:12pm (PDT+3)
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks <nob...@fool.foo>
.....................................................................................
Thanks for the weaselshit, "The Moron Beaten By Jacks". I can provide a
ton of links where you state that you raise with AK and pairs EVERY
time. It's clear from your own retarded posts that you don't know the
difference between a loose game and a tight/aggressive game. Read the
thread over and over to see how wrong, and what an idiot you are.
You are truly clueless and thanks for proving it, as well as your
cowardly hypocrisy. You're a lyng scumbag as you've proven, above.
Travel A
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Group: rec.gambling.poker
From: Peter Secor <pe...@scfrey.com>
Best,
.........................................................................
The important and easy to remember concept to keep in mind is that
pocket pairs and high cards pre-flop in a loose game need to be improved
upon dramatically on the flop.
In general, you need a big hand in loose games to win. Hit the flop
hard, then raise. Raising pre-flop just builds the pot for someone else.
You really don't know your chances of winning pre-flop in a loose game,
don't raise until you do.
You have the pot odds and implied odds on every hand, and what better
situation to take advantage of than cheap flops; by raising you're
needlessly wasting chips as if you're charging yourself an extra drop.
With all the drawing hands against you, a pair isn't much of a hand in a
loose game. You need to see the flop to evaluate a five card hand and
your chnces of winning. It's not like a tight/aggressive game where
"dominant hand" pairs and AK possible pairs have great value pre-flop.
Travel A
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Group: rec.gambling.poker
Date: Wed, Jul 9, 2008, 6:27pm (PDT+3)
................................................................................
You're a verbose, pompous, "buzz word" babbling idiot and don't have the
foggiest idea what you're talking about.
Joe Long
> What are your raising standards in low limit holdem on the button?
>
> I have been raising with big pairs TT+ and KJs+. My typical game
> features 4+ limpers to me.
>
> Do you like a raise with other pairs? How many limpers before you pop
> it with, say, 66?
Of course it depends on many factors, but I will often raise with pairs
as low as 88 (lower than that only if I'm in late position and it's been
folded to me). This accomplishes a couple of things: one, I can often
win a pot with the middle pair unimproved if I've raised with it
preflop, while if I just call I have to flop a set. Second, after I've
shown down 88 or 99 after raising preflop I get more action later when I
raise with a big pair.
--
Joe Long aka ChipRider
Somewhere on the Range
DELETETHIS
in many of the low limit (4-8) games that I play in Biloxi. Glad you
brought it up. So often I will be in a game with 7+ pre flop callers
80% of the hands and one player comes to the table and all of a sudden
you are in 3 way (maybe 4 way) flops
Travel A
change the table conditions to suit their answer. If the question is
about loose/passive games, stick with it, or the answers are
meaningless.
Travel A
subject. That would come under a subject having to do with adjusting for
various table conditions.
Peter Secor
>I will only occasionally raise preflop (and only with excellent hands) in
>an already loose passive low limit games. There's three reasons I do this:
>
>1. Raising often preflop scares out players on later hands. Loose passive
>players tighten up if they expect you to be raising alot of the hands you
>play. If I can get a couple of extra people to play lousy cards preflop,
>that's more money for me now and more money as they chase their weak hand on
>the turn and river. That's more valuable to me than people paying a single
>extra bet preflop.
In the California games I play in, no amount of preflop raising will
stop players from limping with QTo (or 67s or worse hands) in early
position.
The real question in my mind is whether the larger pot I win is
outweighed by the (more or less) post flop correctness of everyone
chasing.
I have a strong feeling that in many of the games I play all the big
mistakes are being made preflop. Shouldn't I be raising more to
punish those mistakes. I am not afraid of variance here, I don't
think.
Tad Perry
>
> I have been raising with big pairs TT+ and KJs+. My typical game
> features 4+ limpers to me.
>
> Do you like a raise with other pairs? How many limpers before you pop
> it with, say, 66?
>
> I'd appreciate your thoughts on the matter as I'm considering doing
> some experimenting with style.
Fortunately, the world is full of people that do differentiate the way they
play various hands preflop and essentially announce what they are holding.
Take advantage of them, but don't be one of them.
You shouldn't do anything that marks your hand. The huge fallacy of the
"computer simulation" player (one who raises hands that simulations show
make more by raising and who just flat calls with hands that figure to win
more by flat-calling) is that they are leaking information that against real
players can cost more than the raise seems to win. The main reason for the
fallacy seems to stem from utter arrogance on the part of the player as he
or she fails to comprehend that opponents ARE aware. Remember: people who
base their play on computer simulation have essentially stipulated that
opponents are unaware and do not adjust and that assumption is completely
invalid.
So, you don't want to use marked play against them for long. You'd rather
just flat call all hands in this situation than give anything away. It would
probably even be better to just raise all hands. Another choice is to mix it
up, but make sure your choice to raise or call independent of your hand
strength and base it on something else. The advantage with the last choice
being that people might assume that your raising/calling stands for
something that it doesn't.
In this mostly zero-sum game, any mistake by your opponent represents a gain
for you, and any gain by your opponent represents a loss for you. Always
seek to disappoint. Recently, I limped jacks behind several limpers and the
flop came ten high. I played the hand strong from that point and won a good
size pot. A player that had flopped a pair of tens with an ace kicker
complained: "What are you doing limping jacks in that spot?" Sure, he'd love
it if I announced my hand to him, but that's not what I'm there to do.
tvp
Old Wolf
> I almost never raise with a PP less than 99 no matter how many limpers
> etc. The purpose of raising with PP in LHE is to build pots preflop not
> to get people out of the hand.
It depends on game conditions. If raising treys
has some chance of winning the blinds, or if
it will get you heads up with a bad player who
will coldcall with things like KTo and play
badly postflop, then it is a good move. It also
helps to disguise your raises with top ten hands.
Travel A
In the California games I play in, no amount of preflop raising will
stop players from limping with QTo (or 67s or worse hands) in early
position.
The real question in my mind is whether the larger pot I win is
outweighed by the (more or less) post flop correctness of everyone
chasing.
I have a strong feeling that in many of the games I play all the big
mistakes are being made preflop. Shouldn't I be raising more to punish
those mistakes. I am not afraid of variance here, I don't think.
Best,
Peter
--
http://zbigniew.pyrzqxgl.com/bargegeek.html
..................................................................................
In your original post you stated that the typical hand is five seeing
the flop. That's pretty loose. If that's typical, then it seems probable
that there ae plenty of hands with more than five seeing the flop. A
"loose game", meaning loose game table conditions, is generally defined
as at least five seeing the flop and usually seven or more and the
players wanting to see all seven cards; i.e. chasing bad odds.
So, with that in mind, addressing the question asked, above:
"all the big mistakes are being made pre-flop. Shouldn't I be raising
more to punish those mistakes."
The answer is no. The reason the answer is no is because your opponents
aren't making mistakes pre-flop, they're making their mistakes
post-flop. If you're raising pre-flop -you're- making the mistake, not
them.
I'll explain:
Your opponents are playing more or less any two cards pre-flop. They are
getting the implied odds to do so, especially with cheap flops. That's
not a mistake on their part, pre-flop. You, also, should be taking
advantage of the cheap flops with the big implied odds. Raising merely
has the effect of invoking a "kill" hand. Why would you do that without
seeing a flop to properly evaluate your chances of winning the hand? Two
Pre-flop cards tells you little about your chances against many drawing
hands. Your edge is that, you, as a good player, fold at the flop with
a hand with bad odds. You, wait until you hit the flop hard to continue
with post flop play. Always keep in mind the fact that you're up against
all those drawing hands with no limit of "range of hands". A low flop
will give the inevitable 4,5s player their straight draw.
Their mistakes occur post flop by not folding hands with bad odds and
chasing runner runners etc. This is where, you, playing a good hand on
the flop with good odds, punish their mistakes.
"Correct play" is determined and controlled by the predominant game
conditions. Game conditions are created by the players in a particular
game at a given time. In a tight/aggressive game, correct play is only
correct if the other players are "cooperating" with a certain way of
playing. The players in a tight/aggressive game are playing premium
cards with "dominant hand" consideration. Players fold bad hands and a
typical hand becomes heads-up quickly. There are no big implied odds or
cheap flops to justify many of the pre flop hands that are played in a
loose game.
Under tight/aggressive game conditions, you play similarly to the other
players in order to be playing correctly. It's the same with loose game
conditions, you play "their game" pre flop. The implied odds justifies a
very wide range of hands. You're not playing dominant pair strategy. You
can play a lot of hands compared to the 25% standard of tight/aggressive
games.
You're looking for a big hand to hit on the flop to overcome all the
other drawing hands in a loose game, and with the number of hands you're
playing, you want it to be as cheaply as possibe; i.e., see cheap flops.
Needlessly raising pre flop isn't the way to do that.
You're playing under loose game conditions and you have adjust
accordingly. You have to play "their game", to a point.