Most realistic online poker?
Floptimize
Which are/is the most realistic (most like B&M) online poker site?
A couple factors to consider:
* best players
* most realistic dealing (realistic not best rng)
* and any other factors which you consider add to the realness
DennisP
worse than online.
Dealing is dealing, if you believe the rng is random then it is no
different.
Gospadine
I donate at all of them so they seem pretty realistic to me. They don't call me
the "wallet" for no reason.
Gospadine
http://www.worldpokersowdown.com/
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Floptimize
flushes, straights, 3 or more pocket pairs per game. Something else
that I've experienced that not many complain about is incredibly long
bad run streaks, as in more than average number of trash hands and
having premium hands beat more often than expected.
I know there is a constant debate over online rigging, but somehow I
just can't get passed the idea that most poker gaming sites do tweak
the game to even things out. The idea is to keep the fish around as
long as they can. Let's get one thing straight, live casinos to
everything possible to maximize profits so nobody can convince me that
online casinos don't to likewise.
RazzO
On Oct 19 2005 4:29 PM, Gospadine wrote:
> I donate at all of them so they seem pretty realistic to me. They don't call
me
> the "wallet" for no reason.
>
> Gospadine
> http://www.worldpokersowdown.com/
RazzO
http://www.razzo.com
email:tico...@yahoo.com
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Floptimize
ItsaRace
On Oct 19 2005 8:01 PM, Floptimize wrote:
> Any serious answers?
Poker is a race, not a sprint and you need to pace yourself..
Patti Beadles
Floptimize <bike...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Any serious answers?
I've never run into a site that I believed was unrealistic.
The problem with your "too many flushes" thinking is that it's
based on a warped perception. You're used to thinking, "Oh, I
should see X flushes in an hour, on average"', and that's what
happens in a B&M cardroom. Online, you may see 2-3 times that
many in an hour, and it feels weird to you.
What you aren't taking into account is the fact that you're seeing
2-3 times as many hands, so it's perfectly normal.
-Patti
--
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pattib~pattib.org | Failure is not an option.
http://www.pattib.org/ | It comes bundled with
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Floptimize
perception theory. Did you read my 2nd contribution to this post?
Where I wrote:
"I know there is a constant debate over online rigging, but somehow I
just can't get passed the idea that most poker gaming sites do tweak
the game to even things out. The idea is to keep the fish around as
long as they can. Let's get one thing straight, live casinos to
everything possible to maximize profits so nobody can convince me that
online casinos don't to likewise. "
This is what I am talking about.
Omaholic
"serious answer."
Floptimize
However what I really want are replies to my original question:
ItsaRace
Your question insinuates that by answering you would be consenting your
agreement to a rigged theory, therefore only people who believe it is rigged can
reply, furthermore if one is rigged than they probably all are and vice versa.
Poker is a race, not a sprint and you need to pace yourself..
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Matt
repeatedly over amount of river beats are horrible so i have to say
full tilt.
Floptimize
agreement with the rigged theory. Even if they are rigged, I don't
have poker room within reasonable driving distance, so I want to know
which room(s) rgp'ers think are most realistic. That's it.
Floptimize
Full Tilt.
Patti Beadles
Floptimize <bike...@gmail.com> wrote:
>"I know there is a constant debate over online rigging, but somehow I
>just can't get passed the idea that most poker gaming sites do tweak
>the game to even things out. The idea is to keep the fish around as
>long as they can. Let's get one thing straight, live casinos to
>everything possible to maximize profits so nobody can convince me that
>online casinos don't to likewise. "
I did.
However, online sites also have a very strong motivataion not to
kill the goose that's laying golden eggs all over their yards.
Online poker has aa VERY strong incentive to keep the games honest.
If they rig the games people will figure it out, and their business
goes down the tubes.
I've played a ton of poker on several sites, and I have no reason
whatsoever to think that games are fixed.
Truushot
online as compared to B&M. The simple truth is, IMHO, it is rigged and your
foolish not to believe that. Did anyone see Skalinsky on poker stars when he had
AQ and was against AK and QQ? Did you hear what he said? He said it was like
some put in a cold deck against him and that he had NEVER had that happen to him
in either a tournament or a cash game. Well, as you all know, we see that shit
all the time online. Yes anything can happen and we get the "pleasure" of espn
showing us every serious bad beat that they can, but the truth is bad beats are
a very very small part of poker. Poker is hours of bordom followed by seconds of
terror, that is the generalized truth about poker.
Online poker sites make money off of rake. In order to make rake, they need
players. If the fish didn't win ocassionally they will stop playing or find
another site. The truth is fish are fish and they should get gutted playing crap
like 58s for 2 raises but they seem to hit often enough that they never learn
because they don't lose as much as they should on those hands.
Online sites want every player to be close to even. Why? Because then everyone
can keep playing and feeding them rake.
So what happens? The winners don't win as much as they should and the loser
don't lose everything and the site wins out in the end.
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Floptimize
however being a software engineer myself, I can't get passed it because
it seems so clear to me that its possible to unnoticeably tweak the
games. I won't get into detail, because its not the primary reason for
my post.
So I take it, you don't have answer to my original question.
Floptimize
Truushot
It isn't rigged to favor "one" player just to make action flops and keep the
fish playing. The sites certainly don't care if you win they really care when
you lose and pull out or don't reload. They need the fish more then we do.
Party Poker: I win 7 dollars in a freeroll.
I'm forced to play .50/1 Limit. (lowest offered as I'm not a beginner)
I know that if i don't win either the first hand or second hand that I play, I
will most likely get broke. Second hand dealt to me is KK and i get paid well.
Is it rigged? I enjoyed the winning hand but I knew I'd be dealt something good
very quickly and amazingly it happened. I've played very little on the site
maybe 6 hours and have worked it up over 100.00. Now I'm more comfortable
playing, and guess what, I play 2 tables at a time doubling their rake from me.
So their "investment" in me, (KK) has paid dividends to the site. If I don't get
the KK they get no rake from me.
On Oct 19 2005 7:29 PM, Patti Beadles wrote:
> In article <1129767161.7...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Floptimize wrote:
> >"I know there is a constant debate over online rigging, but somehow I
> >just can't get passed the idea that most poker gaming sites do tweak
> >the game to even things out. The idea is to keep the fish around as
> >long as they can. Let's get one thing straight, live casinos to
> >everything possible to maximize profits so nobody can convince me that
> >online casinos don't to likewise. "
>
> I did.
>
> However, online sites also have a very strong motivataion not to
> kill the goose that's laying golden eggs all over their yards.
> Online poker has aa VERY strong incentive to keep the games honest.
> If they rig the games people will figure it out, and their business
> goes down the tubes.
>
> I've played a ton of poker on several sites, and I have no reason
> whatsoever to think that games are fixed.
>
> -Patti
> --
> Patti Beadles, Oakland, CA |
> pattib~pattib.org | Failure is not an option.
> http://www.pattib.org/ | It comes bundled with
> Check out http://www.tribe.net ! | your Microsoft product.
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Blackize
All online sites have more "realistic" dealing than B&Ms because the whole point
of dealing is to randomly give cards, and an RNG does this better than a
shuffle.
And the internet sites would be stupid to only allow 1 table and deal at the
speed to which you are accustomed. Internet poker is a completely different
animal. Accept that fact or don't play it.
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OhioState95
Every site I have played on deals randomly from a 52 card deck containing 2 thru
A of clubs, hearts, diamonds, and spades. Then the betting proceeds according
to the standard rules of whichever game is being played. Therefore my answer to
your question is "all of them."
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Floptimize
feel are the sites that are most realistic?
Blackize
damnit get the names right. But you are an idiot to think that these things
never happen live, they do.
Patti Beadles
Floptimize <bike...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Thanks for your input, and I agree with you about the strong incentive,
>however being a software engineer myself, I can't get passed it because
>it seems so clear to me that its possible to unnoticeably tweak the
>games. I won't get into detail, because its not the primary reason for
>my post.
I'm a software engineer myself... feel free to hunt down my resume
if you'd like, but I've been writing code for a quarter of a century
now.
The problem is that the end result is always visible, and if there's
a skew then over time, someone will notice it. They'll gather data,
do analysis, and prove bias.
>So I take it, you don't have answer to my original question.
My answer is "all of them", but you don't seem to like that one
much.
GambleAB
Floptimize
you.
One last little point, your "all of them" response is with respect to
them all being equally realistic where my "all of them" is them being
equally unrealistic. ;)
Thanks, Patti, I enjoy reading your posts.
Blackize
100's of thousands of hands in which we are dealt each starting hand the
appropriate percentage of the time and we get dealt straights and fullhouses the
appropriate percentage of the time as well.
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ItsaRace
You look but you do not see,you hear but you do not listen grasshopper.
Poker is a race, not a sprint and you need to pace yourself..
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Blackize
of random hole cards. An RNG does a better job of accomplishing that than a
dealer.
On Oct 19 2005 8:55 PM, Floptimize wrote:
> Right, and I have accepted it. I just want people to answer which they
> feel are the sites that are most realistic?
_______________________________________________________________
Floptimize
To you the question is flawed, and you don't have to answer the
question if you don't want to.
Thanks.
Flybynight
Do you not accept the evidence of thousands of Poker Players
representing millions of hours worth of Poker Playing experience
(including some professionals) claiming they mistrust the software of
online poker?
I do know bad beats can and do happen and I am aware we are seeing many
more hands in an hour playing online. However, the rate of trips and
quads is unacceptable. I see an average of 3-4 Quads a night playing 2
tables on PP. The rate that pocket Aces get beaten, heads up is also
unacceptably high. Just last night I saw Pocket rockets beaten 4 times
in a row. Now it's possible that rockets were bet on post-flop and
someone else folds so the cards were not shown. I just doubt it.
NoEd
online is unreal, even considering number of hands played. By the way, I
have a fair amount of statistics under my belt.
"Truushot" <4308...@recpoker.com> wrote in message
news:1129768315$644...@recpoker.com...
John A. Fish
realistic to me. And as long as I keep winning, I will continue to
believe that this is true.
Floptimize wrote:
> Simple question:
>
> Which are/is the most realistic (most like B&M) online poker site?
>
Sir Benjamin Nunn
"Floptimize" <bike...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129764137.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Simple question:
>
> Which are/is the most realistic (most like B&M) online poker site?
>
> A couple factors to consider:
> * best players
> * most realistic dealing (realistic not best rng)
> * and any other factors which you consider add to the realness
All sites are rigged, but tweak the RNG in different ways. You just need to
learn how they work. For example:
Pokerstars:
One hand in every seven, two suits are chosen at random, and all cards below
the 10 in those suits are taken out of the deck, so a 36-card deck is used
to deal this hand, which will be more likely to generate action because of
increased high-card and flush possibilities.
Over the other six hands, a 46-card deck is used, with six of the 36 cards
from the 'Action Deck' mentioned above, taken out of play at random, until
they've all skipped their turn.
This ensures that every card will show up an equal number of times overall,
and they can 'prove' the non-riggedness, while still rigging the game.
Party Poker:
Party use a 'sticky cards' logorithm when performing random shuffles. Every
Ace-thru-Jack (16 cards total) is allocated eight cards that work well with
it (same value, same suit, or connector). One of these court cards is chosen
at random, and three of the eight 'sticky cards' are stuck either side of
the card in the deal, so if the Qc was the randomly designated card, there
could be a sequence of QhKcKdQcAcJsJd in the deal, for example.
The juicy sequence might come up when dealing hole cards, it might be the
last flop card, and the turn and river, or the deck might not get to it all
(which proportionately increases the likelihood of a concentration of low
connected cards). Again, it's not really detectable.
Oh yeah, and I'm making all of this up.
Or am I?
BTN
Nathan Stohler
NoEd wrote:
>
> I absolutely agree. I played live for years and some of the crap I see
> online is unreal, even considering number of hands played. By the way, I
> have a fair amount of statistics under my belt.
Why not post your statistics, so we can calculate how far they deviate
from expected results? Others have done so in the past, and I have yet
to see anything out of the ordinary.
Nathan Stohler
Flybynight wrote:
>
> Nice Try, Party Poker is NOT realistic.
>
> Do you not accept the evidence of thousands of Poker Players
> representing millions of hours worth of Poker Playing experience
> (including some professionals) claiming they mistrust the software of
> online poker?
Very nice, an appeal to popularity *and* authority. I can't argue with
that.
>
> I do know bad beats can and do happen and I am aware we are seeing many
> more hands in an hour playing online. However, the rate of trips and
> quads is unacceptable. I see an average of 3-4 Quads a night playing 2
> tables on PP.
You would expect to see someone hit quads roughly once in every 800 hands
(with a full table). If I assume you're playing about 400 hands/night,
then you're seeing someone hit quads 6-8 times more often than you would
expect (even more if you're not playing full ring games). If you say this
is average for you, then I don't believe you.
Why don't you record the hand history number every time you see quads.
Then post the hand history numbers here when you have a night where you
see quads occur 4 times. Since 3-4 is average for you, this shouldn't be
too difficult.
> The rate that pocket Aces get beaten, heads up is also
> unacceptably high. Just last night I saw Pocket rockets beaten 4 times
> in a row. Now it's possible that rockets were bet on post-flop and
> someone else folds so the cards were not shown. I just doubt it.
Huh? That's very possible. You've never had someone fold when you bet
with AA?
as...@jetson.com
and your are actively looking for one to play at, doesn't that make you
a fool? Why would one risk $$ at a site they believe is rigged?
And, to answer your original question, UB is my favorite site for 2
reasons. 1) The interface is clean and easy to see everything like chip
counts, players names, etc. Other sites I have tried are so cluttered
with avatars and other images it is hard to find the info you are
looking for. 2) They have a mini view wich allows me to play several
tables at once without any of the windows overlapping. Very nice if you
like to play multiple games at once.
Alan
Patti Beadles
Flybynight <wetb...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Do you not accept the evidence of thousands of Poker Players
>representing millions of hours worth of Poker Playing experience
>(including some professionals) claiming they mistrust the software of
>online poker?
I have not heard anyone whose skill and experience I respect ever
question the fairness of major online poker sites. EVER.
We have the same discussion in backgammon all the time. Weaker
players always shout and scream that the sites are rigged, but
good players never do.
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles, Oakland, CA |
pattib~pattib.org | Never ever argue with a clown.
http://www.pattib.org/ |
Check out www.tribe.net ! | The clown ALWAYS wins.
TD Lowball
pat...@green.rahul.net (Patti Beadles) wrote:
> What you aren't taking into account is the fact that you're seeing
> 2-3 times as many hands, so it's perfectly normal.
>
> -Patti
I tend to get somewhat bored when I play B&M since you get so damn few
playable hands in an hour.
Truushot
I think that people miss the point. It isn't rigged in what your hole cards are.
You will get the stardard deviation of hands over the long haul. What is rigged
is the flop turn and river. Do your statistics show how often you get beat by
the river without laying it down against random hands? Most every flop
contains 2 suited, 2 to the straight a pair or an Ace. Is that normal? Where
are the 10 6 2 rainbow flops?
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Flybynight
Nathan Stohler wrote:
> Flybynight wrote:
> >
> > Nice Try, Party Poker is NOT realistic.
> >
> > Do you not accept the evidence of thousands of Poker Players
> > representing millions of hours worth of Poker Playing experience
> > (including some professionals) claiming they mistrust the software of
> > online poker?
>
> Very nice, an appeal to popularity *and* authority. I can't argue with
> that.
And what "authority" has come along to substantiate that online poker
is legit?
But anyways, that's a nice avoidance of the key question: If online
poker is not rigged, why is it popular opinion, among millions of poker
players, that it is rigged?
> > I do know bad beats can and do happen and I am aware we are seeing many
> > more hands in an hour playing online. However, the rate of trips and
> > quads is unacceptable. I see an average of 3-4 Quads a night playing 2
> > tables on PP.
> You would expect to see someone hit quads roughly once in every 800 hands
> (with a full table). If I assume you're playing about 400 hands/night,
> then you're seeing someone hit quads 6-8 times more often than you would
> expect (even more if you're not playing full ring games). If you say this
> is average for you, then I don't believe you.
Nice, I say something you don't agree with and you call me a "liar".
> Why don't you record the hand history number every time you see quads.
> Then post the hand history numbers here when you have a night where you
> see quads occur 4 times. Since 3-4 is average for you, this shouldn't be
> too difficult.
Will do. But if I agree to this and prove my statements than you must
agree that I am right. Fair?
> > The rate that pocket Aces get beaten, heads up is also
> > unacceptably high. Just last night I saw Pocket rockets beaten 4 times
> > in a row. Now it's possible that rockets were bet on post-flop and
> > someone else folds so the cards were not shown. I just doubt it.
> Huh? That's very possible. You've never had someone fold when you bet
> with AA?
Of course, but it's unlikely, when you see pocket rockets 4 times in 2
hours, that there were additional pocket rockets lurking out there,
unchallenged.
Flybynight
as...@jetson.com wrote:
> If you do in fact 'truely' believe that all on-line sites are rigged
> and your are actively looking for one to play at, doesn't that make you
> a fool? Why would one risk $$ at a site they believe is rigged?
>
Nope. If you change your style of play, you can take advantage of the
sites being rigged. For example, if you believe that pocket kings and
aces occur more often than usual, you may not risk going all-in with
pocket queens.
Flybynight
Patti Beadles wrote:
> In article <1129772626.2...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>
> We have the same discussion in backgammon all the time. Weaker
> players always shout and scream that the sites are rigged, but
> good players never do.
Oh so now I am a weak player because I believe the site is rigged?
Your arrogance has no limit.
Patti Beadles
Flybynight <wetb...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Oh so now I am a weak player because I believe the site is rigged?
>Your arrogance has no limit.
I don't if you are or not; I don't know you from adam, and I have
no idea what your background is.
What I'm saying is that I have NEVER heard someone who I know is a
strong player assert that online poker is rigged, and I know a lot
of people who are excellent poker players who believe that it is
honest.
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles, Oakland, CA |
pattib~pattib.org |
http://www.pattib.org/ | The crazy chick with
Check out www.tribe.net ! | the purple hair.
Rich Shipley
>
> But anyways, that's a nice avoidance of the key question: If online
> poker is not rigged, why is it popular opinion, among millions of poker
> players, that it is rigged?
Because it isn't popular opinion. A loud minority whines about it, but
most playing online don't worry about it.
Rich
arlo payne
On Oct 20 2005 5:19 PM, Patti Beadles wrote:
> What I'm saying is that I have NEVER heard someone who I know is a
> strong player assert that online poker is rigged, and I know a lot
> of people who are excellent poker players who believe that it is
> honest.
>
> -Patti
Patti
I really don't want to get inthe middle of this one.
HOWEVER:
I know many very strong players that feel something is going on with on line
poker.
Also to date it is impossible for anyone on the outside to crunch the numbers
and determine if anything is going on because there is just to much missing
data.
I will say it looks pretty funny when someone gets beat by a one or two outer 8
or 9 times in a few hours of play.
I review hand history for a few players and as an example last night one of he
players had pocket kings beat by pocket 9s three times out of three times all on
the turn. They also had Ace King suited beat by Ace queen offsuit 3 times all
of those at the river. Now you start just looking at the numbers and it does
start to look strange. I could go no and no but it will lead to nowhere most
have made up their minds on this issue. As for me I just sit on the fence and
watch.
I will say this I would never play high stakles on line just because I know what
is possible in the world of cheating. Not only do I like to see the cards come
off the deck I also want to hear them. Many times the ears will tell you
something the eyes can not see. In general if I am playing for money and not
just screwing around putting people on tilt I want a real dealer.
I will also add I do from time to time enjoy playing the little games on line
just for grins so overall it can add fun to ones life but that is the only value
I see in it.
Oh I do need to add the tournaments seem to be a fun slot machine for many and I
think that is great my main problem with on line is playing at a level that
attracts the cheats both on the inside and the outside.
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Flybynight
What percentage of poker players, within a 1 hour driving distance to a
casino, play online?
How many poker players regularly win on both online and B&M casinos?
Raccoon
Floptimize wrote:
> Simple question:
>
> Which are/is the most realistic (most like B&M) online poker site?
Floptimize, you want realism? We cordially invite you to try out
b&mpokeronline.com. Our latest version has a voice module. Yes! Our
dealers talk to you and back at you!
And that's not all! We've selected some of our dealers to muck your
hand, forget to burn on the turn, or push the pot to the second-best
hand at random intervals. ALL of our dealers are programmed to deal no
more than 23 hands per hour.
You'll have plenty of time to order up some delicious bok choy,
Vietnamese coffee or a cocktail from one of our scrumptious virtual
hostesses. Home delivery is available for a modest tip anywhere in the
continental USA.
Flybynight
Flybynight
Rich Shipley
My answer to both of these is: How the fuck would I (or you) know?
I have noticed that only a few people talk about the sites being rigged.
But they do it all the time. Not sure why they don't just quit playing
and shut the hell up.
Rich
minus200(DELETETHIS)
I also know several strong players that believe the hands are "juiced"
Fixed might be too strong to describe the number hands that fall well
outside what they have seen at the table over many years. They (as I do
also) feel that the games are different than a live game. They are much
better players than me and one has at least 2 final tables in the old
days of the WSOP. He plays on line and beats the game but for what he
calls peanuts
arlo payne
On Oct 20 2005 8:05 PM, minus200(DELETETHIS) wrote:
> you sound like an old timer that has heard a few "seconds"
>
> I also know several strong players that believe the hands are "juiced"
> Fixed might be too strong to describe the number hands that fall well
> outside what they have seen at the table over many years. They (as I do
> also) feel that the games are different than a live game. They are much
> better players than me and one has at least 2 final tables in the old
> days of the WSOP. He plays on line and beats the game but for what he
> calls peanuts
For years I went to the WSOP for the side action. In 2002 the games sucked so I
entered one of the events and hell even I made the final table. So one could
say I have made the final table in each of the events I have entered batting
100% :)
Nathan Stohler
Truushot wrote:
> I think that people miss the point. It isn't rigged in what your hole cards are.
> You will get the stardard deviation of hands over the long haul. What is rigged
> is the flop turn and river. Do your statistics show how often you get beat by
> the river without laying it down against random hands? Most every flop
> contains 2 suited, 2 to the straight a pair or an Ace. Is that normal? Where
> are the 10 6 2 rainbow flops?
I think that people don't understand probability:
4804 flops with at least one ace: 21.74%
13312 flops with at least 2 of same suit: 60.24%
8320 flops with at least 2 to a straight: 37.65%
19220 flops with at least one of the above features: 86.97%
2880 rainbow flops (none of the above): 13.03%
22100 total possible flops (100%)
garycarson
You're trying to explain something to someone who thinks "standard
deviation of hands" is a phrase that actually means something?
You're just as nuts as he is.
Gary Carson
www.garycarson.com
Nathan Stohler
Flybynight wrote:
> And what "authority" has come along to substantiate that online poker
> is legit?
>
> But anyways, that's a nice avoidance of the key question: If online
> poker is not rigged, why is it popular opinion, among millions of poker
> players, that it is rigged?
I'm not avoiding the question. Your "evidence" that poker is rigged is that
thousands of people believe it is. If I used your logic, I'd have to believe in
UFOs, telepathy and every known religion.
> > You would expect to see someone hit quads roughly once in every 800 hands
> > (with a full table). If I assume you're playing about 400 hands/night,
> > then you're seeing someone hit quads 6-8 times more often than you would
> > expect (even more if you're not playing full ring games). If you say this
> > is average for you, then I don't believe you.
>
> Nice, I say something you don't agree with and you call me a "liar".
If you say you saw quads 4 times in one night while playing about 400 hands,
I'd think, "wow, that's pretty crazy," but I wouldn't dismiss it as impossible.
If you're saying this is a routine occurrence (which you implied by using the
word "average," I am very skeptical.
> > Why don't you record the hand history number every time you see quads.
> > Then post the hand history numbers here when you have a night where you
> > see quads occur 4 times. Since 3-4 is average for you, this shouldn't be
> > too difficult.
>
> Will do. But if I agree to this and prove my statements than you must
> agree that I am right. Fair?
>
Yep, just show me 4 hand histories from the same night where someone shows
quads. Easy, right?
Nathan Stohler
garycarson wrote:
> You're trying to explain something to someone who thinks "standard
> deviation of hands" is a phrase that actually means something?
>
> You're just as nuts as he is.
>
> Gary Carson
> www.garycarson.com
Thanks, Gary. That's the nicest thing anyone's said to me all morning.