quick rules question

[James Bond]

In a home game of Omaha this past weekend, there was an event that caused
a rules debate (though fortunately it was a friendly debate). With 3
people in at showdown, the second person to show verbally admitted defeat
after seeing the first person's cards and then threw his hand into the
middle of the table, on top of all the previously mucked cards, face up.
The 3rd person in the showdown did indeed lose the hand, but commented
that the 2nd player's (premumably) mucked hand actually had made a flush
and was the winner.

The ensuing debate involved the following points:

1. The cards speak
2. The 2nd player mucked his cards (a fact he readily admitted) and the
hand was then dead, so the cards in a dead hand cannot speak
3. The 3rd person, as a player legally in the hand at showdown, has the
right to see the mucked hand of another player in with him at that point,
even if it had been thrown in face down, and it then becomes a live hand
even after being mucked. So goes this point: when this 3rd player saw
the face up muck and declared it to be a winner, it was the same as if he
had asked to see a face down muck, and the hand is now live and the cards
speak and the 2nd player's flush ends up winning the pot after all.

We ended up settling on the 3rd point of view, but we were never totally
confident of that ruling. What was the right decision?

TIA

James

[veeRob]

I'm not 100% sure, but in most card rooms, when the cards touch the muck,
they are officially dead. Face up or face down, the hand is no longer
live, and even if it was the winner, it would not win the pot. If he
shows them face up in front of them, he can be awarded the pot. If it was
my game, I'd rule the hand dead and award the pot to player 1.

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[smellmuth]

ditto. in most casino games, when a player asks to see a mucked hand, the dealer
deliberately touches the hand to the muck, essentially ensuring that the hand is
dead. A deliberately mucked hand is dead. period.  

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[Peg Smith]

On Tue, 24 May 2005 14:53:51 -0400, James Bond <jb...@ue.com> wrote:

>2. The 2nd player mucked his cards (a fact he readily admitted) and the
>hand was then dead, so the cards in a dead hand cannot speak

Yep, deader than a doornail.

Peg

[dlon...@emsofl.com]

Not so clear. There's nothing magical about cards touching the muck.
>From Cardplayer.com's rules:

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that
is clearly identifiable may be retrieved if doing so is in the best
interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand
retrievable if it was folded as a result of false information given to
the player.

If it were my home game, I would award the pot to the best hand if it
was clear that those were his cards and they were placed face up on the
table - but I can see the other side of it as well. The intent is
always that the best hand should win if all bets are called.