GCA "Russ G disects Mike Caro"
Newgca
>
> Search Result 1
> From: Mike Caro (ca...@caro.com)
> Subject: Poker Cheating
> Newsgroups: rec.gambling.poker
> View: Complete Thread (37 articles) | Original Format
> Date: 1997/11/29
>
>
> To Ed "HitTheFlop" (and ALL my RGP family) --
>
> Please excuse the length of this post, but this topic is very
> important to me, and it should be important to Ed and every poker
> player who has integrity.
>
> In another current thread about cheating at poker and the lack of
> perceived interest exhibited by management and industry publications,
> Barbara Yoon wrote: "And do you really believe some 'establishment'
> dictates to the likes of Mike Caro and others what to write and not to
> write?!"
>
> And you responded: "I have great respect for Mike Caro but in all the
> tens of thousands of words I've read, he has avoided the topic. I
> would be anxious to see an artice in Card Player but I know that won't
> happen."
>
> My reply was:
> [BEGIN ABBREVIATED REPLY] I was hoping someone would set the record
> straight on this, but I guess I'll have to do it myself. I appreciate
> your concerns about cheating in poker. I agree with you that not
> nearly enough is done to combat cheating, especially partnerships.
>
> I certainly don't expect you to have read everything I wrote, so it's
> just my bad luck that you've missed the many times I've written
> candidly on this very topic.
>
> Because this is such an important subject to me, and because I've
> devoted so much time to it, I'm going to continue this message in a
> new thread so more people will see it. You may be surprised about what
> I'm going to say. The new thread will be "Poker Cheating."
> [END ABBREVIATED REPLY]
>
> [REPLY NOW CONTINUES IN THIS NEW THREAD]
>
> I believe cheating is very destructive to poker and is much more
> common than most players suspect. There are relatively few cheating
> incidents that have ever been proven or documented in major poker
> casinos. How many? I don't know for sure, but I'd guess fewer than 100
> in all the years I've been associated with the industry.
Fewer than 100 cases of cheating in all the years you have beed associated with
the industry. Thats probably about two incidents a year in dozens of card
rooms. Why even have security? beside, all the incidents have been in small
games.
>
> But for every incident that is discovered, there are almost certainly
> a whole lot more that are never discovered. Worse, the ones that are
> undiscovered may tend to continue for very long times and are likely
> to be the most sophisticated and most harmful to honest players. This
> is only speculation on my part, but perhaps I have some special feel
> for what goes on, based on my long obsession with the integrity of the
> game of poker.
Kind of like mine, a 35 year long scam. But now I am gone the industry can
breathe deeper. NOT What about the hundreds of other cheating packs?
>
> Let me explain. I have been cheated many times at poker. So has every
> world-class pro who ever lived. So have the cheaters themselves. I
> first became aware of this in the old days in Gardena, California.
> Going back 25 years, Gardena was billing itself as "the poker capitol
> of the world." It probably was a deserved title. The small city (a
> suburb of Los Angeles) had six casinos, each limited to 35 tables.
> There was nowhere else in the world where you could find as many poker
> games. Back then, however, only two flavors of poker were allowed --
> both five-card draw games -- jacks-or-better draw and ace-to-five
> lowball.
Mike Caro was cheated several hundred times here, mainly by my cheating pack as
we had control.
>
> There were no professional dealers. You passed the deal, just as you
> would in most home games, and -- as you can imagine -- this led to all
> kinds of problems. A little less than 20 years ago, I began writing a
> "Caro On Gambling" column for Gambling Times magazine, the definitive
> gambling publication of its day.
What a joke! As if dealers really make much difference to cheats.
>
> Here's what I've done, Ed, to try to keep poker games honest:
>
> 1. I have made it clear to everyone that I will not tolerate cheating.
> That live-and-let-live-but-don't-do-anything-to-me-personally attitude
> often fostered by honest pros who want to coexist with cheaters is not
> acceptable to me. It shouldn't be to RGPers, either.
Seems like you are a man of your word. I see how much effort you put forth in
doing this these days. ZERO
>
> 2. In Gambling Times magazine, almost 20 years ago, I launched my
> Cheater Monitoring Service and invited incident reports, which would
> be (and were and are) kept in strict confidence.
Accomplished a lot. Care to comment what you achieved? English only please!!!
>
> 3. I worked with cardroom management to try to stem cheating.
But they didn't work with you, so you learned ZERO
>
> 4. When an anonymous phone caller said I was messing with the wrong
> people and threatened my life if I didn't back off my campaign against
> cheaters, I reported this in my GT column and threatened to spread
> their body parts all over America. Never heard back from them, and I'm
> still alive (but not exactly normal).
You finally found out you were messing with the wrong group. Mike Caro, pet
poodle. He even jumps through rings these days.
>
> 5. Ten or so years ago, as Editor-In-Chief of Poker Player newspaper
> (the leading poker publication of its day), I was given papers
> outlining a cheating syndicate, in the cheater's own handwriting. I
> promptly photographed and published this for the world to see.
The cheating syndicate was none other than a branch off of the main one I was
in, this one was headed by Steve Bushland, a person we had turned out close to
a decade previously. A ham and egger.
>
> 6. When the Bicycle Club Casino opened in 1984 (at that time the
> largest cardroom in history with over 100 poker tables), I was invited
> to have an independent office on premises to continue my work with the
> Cheater Monitoring Service. Management banned everyone with a bad
> reputation. Suddenly, players that I thought were honest were popping
> into my office to confidentially confess and swear they had reformed.
> The insights I gained from that experience have been, I hope,
> indirectly useful to the community of honest poker players.
This was done to break the Gardena cheating monopoly to allow the Vegas boys
and Northern California guys a large piece of the pie. How can any of the
information you received be useful as it was all kept confidential. Besides,
all you got were the small fries.
>
> 7. I have discussed cheating several times in Card Player magazine
> (maybe someone who collects back issues will verify this -- permission
> to post granted), and I even remember once saying that the problem was
> so serious that just barring or even arresting cheaters was not good
> enough -- they should be "boiled and eaten." And I remember at least
> one other columnist re-quoting that in Card Player. And if you think
> I'm only joking, well, you boil and I eat.
How long do you expect it to take to eat Chip and Doyle?
>
> 8. Earlier this year, I addressed the 2nd Annual World Poker
> Conference warning owners and managers that poker partnerships were a
> "plague on our industry," no matter how widespread they may be, and
> asking them to join with me to put our heads together and see what we
> can do about it. My point was that when thieves take money in a poker
> game, they aren't stealing only from opponents. They are also stealing
> from the casinos, because when honest players can't survive they
> aren't around to supply profits anymore. In truth, the cheaters get
> the money that the casinos and other honest players would be entitled
> to in a fair game. In this very important sense, partnerships steal
> directly from the casino. My address was warmly applauded, but so far
> NO major casino has contacted me -- as requested -- to carry on the
> battle.
So they let you wag your tingue and go back to business as usual. So in
reality, you accomplished nothing. But when you found GCA or rather when GCA
found you things changed. Amazing what the real deal means. The next time your
industry conference was threatened to be boycotted, you were gone from
CardPlayer rag and crying the blues to me.
>
> 9. In fact (see item 8), at an industry surveillance conference a few
> months later, I was cornered in confidence by six (count 'em, six) top
> managers from a large casino. They expressed concern over my address,
> because they thought law enforcement and legislators would take my
> words as fodder to enact laws that would be to the detriment of both
> players and cardrooms. I felt like I was suddenly tossed into the
> boxing ring and they were six on one, but I'm proud to report to RGP
> that they never laid a glove on me. One key point they made was that
> all the main scandals and team play incidents that they knew about
> happened in the bad old days. They challenged me to name something
> that was going on right now. My response was that they could have made
> the very same argument anytime in the past, just before a scam was
> discovered. Obviously, neither they nor I knew for sure of anything
> that was going on right that minute or we would do something about it.
> But, catching partnerships is very difficult -- especially
> sophisticated ones -- and I believe much more can be done to make
> partners fear being discovered.
When you finally did name one, two and more, they brushed it aside as they did
you. You yourself admit catching a sphosticated scam is very difficult and has
never been done. Maybe no one has ever tried.
>
> By the way, everyone who participated in this discussion with me has
> high integrity, and as a group they have done many excellent things
> for poker, but we do NOT see eye-to-eye on this. Not then, not now.
You were with the people from Enron, the brother Milanes and other people with
reputations beyond reproach. For how would a person with a questionable
reputtaion be alowed to steal hundreds of millions, let alone billions of
dollars. Remember one thing, checks are always goo, until the last one.
>
> 10. In Card Player, I DID (quite prominently in a box atop my regular
> column) take a stand against the buying of poker championships, in
> response to this year's controversy at the WSOP. In fact, I think
> someone quoted the material here, and anyone has my permission to
> quote it again. (I have since talked personally with both parties
> involved.)
But isn't it all professional pokers players dream to win a WSOP bracelet?
Seems like Adam Roberts couldn't have cared less, all he wantd was the cash. I
and many of my breathren are under the same thought process. I guess your talk
did a lot of good. Care to explain what god it did? Now Maria Stern also has a
bracelet and she and her husband Max are the only couple that possess this. It
is even publishsized, so I can see how much all of your wok did.
>
> 11. I have dealt privately with the management of at least a dozen
> casinos, and I've analyzed schemes and scams with surveillance
> experts. I know that there are many good people in the industry who
> are trying very hard to keep games honest, and they often succeed in
> dynamic ways that casual players will never know about. For instance,
> I've just finished a confidential conversation with one high-profile
> surveillance expert who broke a hard-to-crack partnership. It's
> difficult to figure out signals when you're playing poker, because at
> the showdown, you're unlikely to remember all the subtle moves that
> led up to the outcome. His surveillance team simply identified key
> winning hands involving one of the suspected cheaters. Then they would
> back up the video tape from that point and carefully examine all the
> gestures and maneuvers that led up to it. I'm passing this along as a
> recommended method for smaller cardrooms who may not be aware of this
> crime-fighting technique. Simply stated: Don't look for the signals
> and then flow to what follows; Look at the important milestones and
> then go back in the video to see what led up to it. It's much, much
> easier to detect signals that way.
What you know about scamming and cheating equates to my computer knowledge.
>
> Anyway, in answer to Ed's well-meaning comment about not having seen
> much on the topic of cheating from me, I humbly submit the previous in
> my own defense.
It your defense warrant?
>
> OK, now I'm going to list things I think, but cannot prove.
>
> 1. I think, but cannot prove, that casinos are much more likely to
> catch card hold-outs, players marking cards, and dealers manipulating
> cards than they are to catch skillful partnerships.
Brilliant. One they can see and the other they can't. Basically the same as in
casino games.
>
> 2. I think, but cannot prove, that any partnership of two or three
> players -- intelligently engineered -- could go into any big-limit
> game anywhere and steal hundreds of thousands of dollars without any
> reasonable possibility of being detected.
The only reason you can't prove it is because you don't do it. Doyle, Chip,
Doug, Eric and crue had reached about the BILLION mark doing this, undetected,
but not unknown now GCA has come forward.
>
> 3. I think, but cannot prove, that any two players following a game
> plan of my design would do better than three of THEIR guys in the same
> game, because they usually are not making the correct plays all the
> time.
Tell you what, you pick someone and I will pick two and lets have a cheating
contest. See what the Vegas line will be on you.
>
> 4. I think, but cannot prove, that three is the optimal number of
> partners to scam a game and that this is most likely what you're
> against when you are being so scammed.
THe optimal line is having equalor one more cheat than live one. Experience
will show you this.
>
> 5. I think, but cannot prove, that poker is fundamentally flawed. As
> in the case of all known games involving decision making where
> cumulative wagers go to a single person, the money can basically go to
> any dishonest players who want it and are careful enough not to be
> detected.
Fundamentally flawed? Poker at high stakes is just one big cheating contest and
you have been cheated for 20 years and still have no clue.
>
> 6. I think, but cannot prove, that cheating at poker is a far worse
> crime than bank robbery. The reason I think so is that when you sit
> down to play poker, you are making a tacit commitment with everyone
> else. You are admitting (whether you realize it or not) that you are
> basically defenseless against a sophisticated partnership, but you
> agree that everyone is going to play in his own best interest. If
> anyone violates this unspoken agreement, it is morally repugnant
> beyond almost anything that I can think of. Why? Because when you rob
> a bank, everyone can see that you're the bad guy with the gun. That's
> terrible, but it isn't the same degree of offense as giving your word
> to play honestly and not keeping it, thus leaving everyone else
> defenseless, not knowing they are being robbed.
It can't be worse than bank robbery, as the law dictates something different.
And you being such a stickler for the law. You can rob a banl for $50 and get
life in prison, while you can steal millions playing poker and perhaps get
barred from a casino.
>
> 7. I think, but cannot prove, that there is some kind of cheating
> going on in most medium and big-limit poker games today. Sometimes the
> cheating is mild or even impromptu and has only moderate effect on
> your profit. Sometimes it is an insurmountable obstacle.
Finally you are realizing things. Took you twenty years to figure this out.
Cheated for 20 years and the bright boy finally thinks something is wrong.
>
> 8. I think, but cannot prove, that when I play, say, $75/$150 stud for
> a month and average $181 an hour that I should have averaged $392 an
> hour, had the game been always honest. (Figures posted for
> illustration only and may not be exact.)
What difference does this make as you still won, so you can have been cheated
:)
Ask Linda Johnson, Barry Shulman and others, as long as they win in a game, the
game has to be honest:) Next time they play and lose 5 times more than they
shoul, it was just bad luck:)
>
> 9. I think, but cannot prove, that the average amount of money stolen
> from an average honest player in an average $50/$100 poker game is
> $86.14 an hour. Ridiculous number? You're right, I just made it up
> because it feels accurate to me at the moment. If the god of poker
> came down with an envelope containing the answer and you made the line
> $86.14, booking the action, and asked me to lay 11-to-10 either way,
> over or under, guess what? I wouldn't bet.
What difference does this make, poker is for fun, not money:) It isn't if you
win or lose, it's how much you win:)
>
> 10. I think, but cannot prove, that laws specifically defining poker
> partnerships as a major criminal offense, punishable by at least five
> years in prison and ranging way, way up would dramatically decrease
> the instances of partnerships. Why? Didn't I say these are hard to
> detect? Yes, but players would be more cautious entering into
> conspiracies where somebody might turn them in later. Further, such
> laws would give casinos the motivation to try much harder to catch
> partners. As it is now, partners rarely get barred from the casino
> permanently, sometimes get told to go home for two days and never do
> it again, and sometimes meet no punishment whatsoever. My friends,
> where is the justice here?
It is quite a punishment to be caught cheating, getting barred for a couple of
days. Perhaps these people should just go to Hawaii with the money they stole,
to consloe themselves for the harsh punishment.
>
> 11. I think, but cannot prove, that thousands of players have lost
> businesses and families to poker partnerships, marked cards, and
> cheating scams. Hardly anyone has been punished for this. Management
> has traditionally played Ostrich in regard to the partnership angle.
Correct, but in 30+ years you haven't been able to come up with one
partnership. I come in and tell you the managers I have dealt with, the people
I have dealt with and it is just brushed aside again. Almost as if everyone is
involved with the cover up:) They are hahaha
>
> Finally, I believe that it is not good enough to tell customers that
> you don't know of any partnerships going on in games. You must be able
> to tell customers what you are doing right now to prevent anyone who
> wants the money in a poker game from taking the money.
HYPOCRITE
>
> That's such a tough issue that some managers probably will not even
> wrestle with the question out of frustration. But you, as a player,
> deserve to know how you're being protected from partnerships and why
> you're safe. And that's exactly the problem I asked casinos -- at the
> World Poker Conference -- to join with me to help resolve.
Tell them the truth. NOTHINH is done, all is just talk. If anything was done,
someone would have been caught cheating high stakes poker games in the last 35
years in all the cards casinos. Meanwhile we have a ZERO. So what good does
security and surveileence do, other than increase the rake? They aren't capable
of catching anyone, since they never have. Better to just tell people cheating
is condoned so we are lowering the rake.
>
> Oh, yes, one more thing (I thought I was done, but I wasn't). I'm
> going to take a whole lot of heat for this post. Most of you don't
> know it, but the majority of my work is done on the management side,
> usually as a consultant, and not on the player side. I've have spent
> many years building the trust of both casinos and players. I am often
> asked to bridge the gulf between these two groups. But, ultimately,
> these sides are the same. What's good for casinos is good for players
> -- even if that's a hard concept to grasp sometimes. Anyway, this will
> be a diplomatic setback, but this post needs to happen.
Now you are truly on the management side. Can't even discuss cheating. In fact,
you are now part of the problem, since you are part of the cover-up
>
> I've taken this opportunity to go public with these feelings because I
> simply haven't gotten the support from my friends in casino management
> that I was hoping for. Lots of praise, lots of handshakes, lots of
> encouragement. No support. I think many bankrolls are in jeopardy, and
> that's very wrong. I cannot in good conscience do research and write
> books defining strategy to beat honest games if games are not honest.
I wonder why the management doesn't want to cooperate with you on this. As I
have stated, we have paid the management for over 30 years since I came into
the game and the ones before me did the same.
>
> Wait, there's still one more thing. About Card Player. Ed is right.
> Card Player is dependant on advertising. It is not primarily
> subscription based, although it does have a large number of
> subscribers. To some extent, it is at the mercy of its advertisers,
> being freely distributed at the casino's whim and winning ad contracts
> at the casino's pleasure. Despite this, Linda Johnson IS enormously
> concerned about cheating. In fact, when I learned of the WSOP title
> purchase, I phoned her and said, "Linda, what are we going to do about
> this. We need to jointly make a strong statement immediately." Those
> may not be my exact words, but I like the look of the quotation marks.
> Guess what? She already had her column prepared on the topic -- I was
> a little late to that party.
Linda Johnson is a pillar of integrity. She bought a house close to Lake Tahoe
and had them include the house as being part of Lake Tahoe on their next
survey, thus making the house a Lake Tahoe property and more valuable. She also
found her way to having dealing with the Milannes from Costa Rica. Casino
Europa and such. Amazing how someone so hoest and with so much knowledge and
integrity can always find the worst people to deal with.
>
> And, yes, Barbara, I can probably say things that casinos don't like
> and get away with it, whereas lesser known writers may not be able to.
> Management may grumble, but they are less likely to make an issue of
> it if I say it, because of our past relationships and potential future
> dealings. However, that's a tenuous status and one that could vanish.
> A post like this probably puts that status in great danger.
> Nevertheless, I needed to say it, so we'll see what happens.
You have siad you piece and not are a whimpering dog. Go back to your dog house
you cowardly supporter of cheats
>
> So, RPG, you're the jury: Have I been candid enough with you about
> this?
>
> Straight Flushes,
> Mike Caro
Russ Georgiev
Newgca
Subject: GCA "Russ G disects Mike Caro" finds missing chips
This is the only article in this thread
View: Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.gambling.poker
Date: 2003-07-25 12:05:19 PST
Russ Georgiev
And a very good job at that.