Cash Game Deals
James L. Hankins
in a 1-2 NL HE cash game. I don't recall all the details of the hand, but
it ended up with two players seeing the flop. They bet, raised and
re-raised. Player A was an off-duty dealer who wanted to avoid as much risk
as he could (he had made comments and showed his hands to avoid suckouts
before).
The posture of the hand was a little bit fuzzy to me since I didn't pay
attention to it until they started discussing things. Player A was all-in
for about 270 and player B had put a bunch of money out, about 160 before
apparently realizing it was more than that. The board was rags. Player A
flips up his cards and showed the other player a flopped two pair and said,
"I have you beat and don't want you to call. I'll let you take back the 60
if you fold your hand."
This got Player B to thinking about it. We found out later that he had KK.
Thus, he was currently beat but could win the hand. He then asked the
dealer if he could take the 60 in the pot, but the dealer said no, he had to
call or fold. Player A then said that when he was awarded the pot he would
just give him the 60.
Player B asked the dealer if he agreed to it, could the casino enforce it in
case he refused. The dealer said no. He either had to call the rest of the
bet or fold.
More thought and he finally called, tabled the KK, and lost the pot.
It got me thinking about table deals and what would happen if one was made,
but the other player refused to pay. Anyone ever see this happen? I've
made these deals before and have never had a problem, but I think player B
had a legitimate concern.
garycarson
I'd never agree with such an offer in a 1/2 game. Even if the guy tried
to pay me some other player could legitimately complain about passing
chips across the table.
In a larger game (like a 10/20 NL game or a 5/10/25 PL game) the house
will usually enforce such agreements even if their official policy is to
not enforce them and even if the house won't intervene there's usually
compliance among the players.
Part of the difference is that the larger games often tend to have a
"host" and because of that are essentially invitation only games. That
creates very strong social pressure to conform or else be shut out of the
game.
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K9way
This is called 'insurance ". It is usually done when players are all-in .
The worst hand may lay insurance to the best hand .
One thing good about the newbie boom , is the fact that most places dont
allow insurance as it would be another way for the Cub Scouts to fuck up
the game .
Insurance was a common practice in the late 70's to early 80's . Sarge
Ferris would sometimes just show up and never play . he would be there to
take advantage of someone wanting insurance .
As an example , you may remember when Helmuth was begging Ivey for
insurance on a televised event a couple of years back. Helmuth lost more
than his finish paid him
Someone almost always has way the worst of it when it comes to taking
insurance.
Houses dont want any opart of it because it fucks up the game , slows it
down and creates a lot of extra hassles that are unneeded
Any dealer who made an offer like that , if he knows the room does not
allow insurance ..should be fired .
Just when you think that youve been gypped ..the bearded lady comes and
does a double back flip!!! John Hiatt in "Buffalo River Home"
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K9way
Rooms either allow insurance or they dont ..if they do allow it , then it
is part of the game and just as enforceable as any other rule or standard.
if they dont aqllow it , then any actions appearing to be those deemed
"insurance" would be disallowed
if you write a book on poker .. you are certainly supposed to know about
this one .
Just when you think that youve been gypped ..the bearded lady comes and
does a double back flip!!! John Hiatt in "Buffalo River Home"
-------�
BTSinAustin
That is a very interesting situation. I also find it odd that B thought
he may get cheated. I have observed that honest people for the most part
expect you to be honest and vice versa. In business if someone expects
someone else to lie or cheat I automatically distrust them. It is like a
tell.
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K9way
Player B might have known full well that the room does not allow
"insurance". he may also know that the dealer was a sleezbag. Sounds like
one of a couple I remember from the Horseshoe in Tunica.
What is he going to do if the dealer says (after the hand ), that he will
pay him after he is done , or some other dodge .?
is he going to fight the guy and get barred ?
Another major mistake in this whole deal is that when an issue of "am I
allowed to " comes up .. the dealer should absolutely never make a 'ruling
".
On the other hand if I had 160 out of 270 in the pot and I was made that
offer and shown that hand I would have gladly accepted..
Just when you think that youve been gypped ..the bearded lady comes and
does a double back flip!!! John Hiatt in "Buffalo River Home"
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garycarson
>
>
> That is a very interesting situation. I also find it odd that B thought
> he may get cheated. I have observed that honest people for the most part
> expect you to be honest and vice versa. In business if someone expects
> someone else to lie or cheat I automatically distrust them. It is like a
> tell.
AS i pointed out in my other post, worrying about things that can go wrong
isn't the same thing as thinking you may get cheated. The possibility of
getting cheated is probably the smaller of the two risks.
------�
phlash74
> Rooms either allow insurance or they dont ..if they do allow it , then it
> is part of the game and just as enforceable as any other rule or standard.
> if they dont aqllow it , then any actions appearing to be those deemed
> "insurance" would be disallowed
>
> if you write a book on poker .. you are certainly supposed to know about
> this one .
>
> Just when you think that youve been gypped ..the bearded lady comes and
> does a double back flip!!! John Hiatt in "Buffalo River Home"
In Reuben and Ciaffone's book "Pot Limit and No-Limit Poker", Stewart
Reuben tells a story of playing PL Stud against a friend of his in London,
in a hand where all the money went in on sixth street with Reuben holding
a made straight against his friend's trips and four flush. Several of his
friend's outs were dead, and they agreed to take about half the pot out
(Reuben got a $5K-$4K split) and play for the rest. The manager allowed
it even though the Victoria had a policy against it.
If you don't think rooms have different rules for high stakes players, I
question your sanity. Do you really want $1/$2 NL games held up so the
TVSMs can argue for days about how to chop a pot or the odds on insurance
or whether to run it twice? I don't think so. But if Doyle and his
buddies want to take their time playing $1K/$2K, I hardly think anyone's
going to object.
Michael
U.S. American
-----------------
"Frankly, I think this was a good post. And on its merit too, not just
because you jammed it up Irish Mike's ass pretty good. Icing on the cake.
lol"
-Paul Popinjay, 3/19/08
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K9way
> On Dec 1 2009 7:36 PM, K9way wrote:
>
>
> > Rooms either allow insurance or they dont ..if they do allow it , then it
> > is part of the game and just as enforceable as any other rule or standard.
> > if they dont aqllow it , then any actions appearing to be those deemed
> > "insurance" would be disallowed
> >
> > if you write a book on poker .. you are certainly supposed to know about
> > this one .
> >
> > Just when you think that youve been gypped ..the bearded lady comes and
> > does a double back flip!!! John Hiatt in "Buffalo River Home"
>
> In Reuben and Ciaffone's book "Pot Limit and No-Limit Poker", Stewart
> Reuben tells a story of playing PL Stud against a friend of his in London,
> in a hand where all the money went in on sixth street with Reuben holding
> a made straight against his friend's trips and four flush. Several of his
> friend's outs were dead, and they agreed to take about half the pot out
> (Reuben got a $5K-$4K split) and play for the rest. The manager allowed
> it even though the Victoria had a policy against it.
>
> If you don't think rooms have different rules for high stakes players, I
> question your sanity. Do you really want $1/$2 NL games held up so the
> TVSMs can argue for days about how to chop a pot or the odds on insurance
> or whether to run it twice? I don't think so. But if Doyle and his
> buddies want to take their time playing $1K/$2K, I hardly think anyone's
> going to object.
>
> I have worked the floor in rooms that allow insurance and rooms that do not
. trust me .. you arent going to teach ME anything about how , when and why
it is done ..
been there done that !!
Just when you think that youve been gypped ..the bearded lady comes and
does a double back flip!!! John Hiatt in "Buffalo River Home"
---�
K9way
Ciaffone.
2nd .. it depends on who is "hosting " the game and how much of the drop
he is getting for doing so .
3rd.. just for the record .. 'running em twice" is the newest form of
"insurance "
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