WSOP unofficial vs official numbers, and why NO ONE STOLE ANY MONEY
JGroomsTD
Hello all,
As you can imagine, I have been a bit preoccupied with work, and could not post
as often as i would have liked. I feel that this subject is EXTREMELY important
to address, as my integrity is at stake. Before I go any further, let me say
that questioning my integrity and honesty is worse than spitting in my face. If
you want to do it, do it to me in person, not on a post. Just like the
situaions Mac the Cooler flamed me on, why not ask me in person before you
accuse me or Harrah's of stealing the money.
First, our confirmed number of assigned seats at the end of the first level on
Day 1A was 5,661.
When I leaked that number, I told several people(including jon) that that number
was the Maximum number of entries we could account for . We had 1 death between
registration and play, 5 documented medical emergencies that were granted a
refund, and 32 players over the first 3 days of play that did not show up to
play their stacks. we also had 4 players assigned 2 different starting days.
Of those players who did not show up to play, I HAVE NO IDEA WHY THEY DID NOT
SHOW. Underage qualifiers were a majority is my assumption.
Releasing the payout information before Day 3 would have been an absolutely
moronic thing to do. What happens if a medical emergency comes up in between
days 1 and 3? What happpens if a player dies?
I will not release a prize pool count until I am absolutely certain the number
is right . I have made that mistake before, and it is really embarrasing, and
pisses th players off to no end. Also, in this event, the world is watching, so
every mistake is magnified.
Check the chip count. When chip counts are released for 27, add up the number
of missed blinds from our no shows for about 3 hrs of player per player. Then
include starting chips. allow for a slight increase due to chip races..(Note
that a slight increase over a 180 table race off on day 1, and a 50 table race
off on day 3 might be more than 1 full entry worth of chips).
In the end, the chip counts will be there, and the conspiracy theorists will be
silenced. Also, as on poster suggested, go back and count the chips in a rebuy
event. That's the easiest place to screw with the money and numbers. You'll
see why there's no issue. They are on the money.
I and my staff are not perfect by any means. We work hard, and judging player's
opinions is what matters to me. By and large we have received a very positive
response from the players on our performance in this tournament.
I am sorry people feel the nned to compare me to others that have had a slightly
less than respectable image. But I dont give a *************** what everybody
else did. I do it right. I dont lie, cheat, or steal. I resent the insinuation
that I did. If you have an issue, step up. I will respond to any and all
posts. Until you do, consider this laid to rest.
Respectfully,
John Grooms
TD WSOP
_______________________________________________________________
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igotskillz com
message boards i have seen has been overwhelmingly positive.
WTG
This is the first year i got the bug, hope to see u next time around.
Thank YOU
_______________________________________________________________________
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minus200(DELETETHIS)
the cards were in the air was never a factor in how many entries you
had. Guess anyone could just show up, find a seat, then play. Dont
worry about the entry form or anything like that.
most places I have played, when the cards are in the air -- there are NO
REFUNDS after that. If the chips were set on the table for a player -
HE GETS NO MONEY BACK. If Phil shows up late (heaven forbid) and
decides he does not want to play then I am sure you would give him his
money back. Either the chips were out and the entry paid or they were
not. This is not brain surgery - money is not accounted for - what is
the most likely story? Yours is a good one and it may even be true but
if it is true then this is the most poorly run $50,000,000 business
(just one event)in the world. Every business has accounting methods for
keeping track of money. It may be as simple and a one man business that
counts it- then puts the money in his pocket and says "I had a good/bad
day." ( does this sound familiar?) There are other methods that involve
all types of controls like counts and recounts - computers, people
always watching the money, and IMAGINE THIS - cameras on the cash. I
heard a rumor that some casinos do this with THEIR MONEY. Poker money is
different - for years poker staff have "raked" a little of the entry
fees but usually rebuy money to help their personal bankroll. It is NOT
a new thing with poker - it has been around as long as tournaments.
I will promise you one thing. IF THIS WAS CASINO MONEY, THERE WOULD BE
HELL TO PAY. PEOPLE WOULD BE FIRED OR WORSE AND I DONT MEAN IN TWO OR
THREE DAYS. There would be a COMPLETE account and I mean TODAY. Do you
suppose stockholders would like to hear a story like this?
Sorry to question your reputation (and you may have not done anything
wrong) but your story should start out:
Once upon a time in a land far far away.................
If my post is a fairy tale then you may be a fine poker person but you
are not mgt material. No manager would leave himself open to this - NO
MANAGER. Public monies MUST be handled in such a way to prevent even
the smallest hint of scandal. Casino money may be handled in a way that
makes management happy. The tournament entries belong to the players.
It is their money and the transaction must be open and above board and
all reasonable question must be addressed. If you think anyone that ask
about the money is assaulting your integrity then you have a problem.
Either you have not often handled public money or you use the word to
cover up the lack of integrity
This is not a $20 buy-in freeze out. There is a lot of money involved.
People are going to ask and you must answer them - so far the answers
look a little weak. Much of this may be due to the accounting controls
but that is ultimately the responsibility of the person in charge. Who
is in charge?
igotskillz com
be simple.
If you played and paid your name would be there. If your name is missing
then u know that there is wrongdoing
Thank YOU
-----
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Gary Carson
On Jul 10 2005 4:14 AM, JGroomsTD wrote:
>
> Hello all,
> As you can imagine, I have been a bit preoccupied with work, and could not
> post
> as often as i would have liked. I feel that this subject is EXTREMELY
> important
> to address, as my integrity is at stake. Before I go any further, let me say
> that questioning my integrity and honesty is worse than spitting in my face.
> If
> you want to do it, do it to me in person, not on a post. Just like the
> situaions Mac the Cooler flamed me on, why not ask me in person before you
> accuse me or Harrah's of stealing the money.
It's really not worth my time to go over to the Rio just to talk to you.
But, there is a long and gloriious history of tournament directors skimming
buyin money, especially from rebuy tournaments. You know that. Don't pretend
you don't.
When you can get a simple reconcilement done in a timely manner, people are
going to wonder why. It's not really a good thing for you to get all macho
about it with this "you're spitting in my face", "talk to me in person"
rhetoric. You either get a reconcilement done or you don't
>
> First, our confirmed number of assigned seats at the end of the first level on
> Day 1A was 5,661.
>
> When I leaked that number, I told several people(including jon) that that
> number
> was the Maximum number of entries we could account for . We had 1 death
> between
> registration and play, 5 documented medical emergencies that were granted a
> refund, and 32 players over the first 3 days of play that did not show up to
> play their stacks. we also had 4 players assigned 2 different starting days.
>
> Of those players who did not show up to play, I HAVE NO IDEA WHY THEY DID NOT
> SHOW. Underage qualifiers were a majority is my assumption.
>
> Releasing the payout information before Day 3 would have been an absolutely
> moronic thing to do. What happens if a medical emergency comes up in between
> days 1 and 3? What happpens if a player dies?
Uh. You did release a head count. Seems that was a moronic thing to.
> else did. I do it right. I dont lie, cheat, or steal. I resent the
> insinuation
> that I did. If you have an issue, step up. I will respond to any and all
> posts. Until you do, consider this laid to rest.
You're in a business where people lie, cheat,and steal all the time. It's not
enough to just assert that you're special. You aren't special.
I'm sure you did a good job, I played in 3 of your events this year and I have
few complaints. But, it's not enough for you to just say "trust me".
One thing you could have done is simply announce the number of players
registered (not an estimate of the number registered) and that the prize pool
won't be finialized until 3 hours into the final Day 1 flight so you can adjust
for refunds due to no shows. Just say that, straight up, in a press release.
Don't make it some little secret that you mumble to people.
Gary Carson
_______________________________________________________________
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Susan
"JGroomsTD" <Rackin_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1120994062$559...@recpoker.com...
> Of those players who did not show up to play, I HAVE NO IDEA WHY THEY DID
> NOT
> SHOW.
so what happened to their money if they didn't show for whatever reason? Do
you reserve seats without getting the money up front?
Susan
arlo payne
On Jul 10 2005 4:14 AM, JGroomsTD wrote:
> Some stuff......
Before I address your statement I would like to hear directly from you who got
the money for the 42 buy-ins that you say were dealt with as a refund.
_______________________________________________________________
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Gary Carson
On Jul 10 2005 9:40 AM, Susan wrote:
> "JGroomsTD" wrote in message
> news:1120994062$559...@recpoker.com...
>
> > Of those players who did not show up to play, I HAVE NO IDEA WHY THEY DID
> > NOT
> > SHOW.
>
> so what happened to their money if they didn't show for whatever reason? Do
> you reserve seats without getting the money up front?
>
>
The set a precedent a few years ago with Stu Ungar. He didn't think he could
play his best one year, so he didn't show.and they gave him his money back after
the event started.
Because of that they now have an official policy to treat everyone the same.
They give random seat assingments and they allow you to watch the play at your
assigned table for 3 hours. If you decided you don't like the initial table you
drew you don't have to sit down, they'll give you your money back.
It's only fair. After all, they're tournament directors and all they want is to
be fair
If Grooms wants me to actually talk to him, maybe he could send a car for me.
Gary Carson
_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
Olemite
don't show up, then why shouldn't the casino get to keep the money? (I
will say that if the "no-shows" chips enter the tournament, than their
$ should enter the prize pool as those chips can be used "for" or
"against" any player.)
However, if their chips are not in the tourney, I don't feel Harrah's
owes any refunds to "no-shows." The best they can do is refund the
money to the web site, and then the web site will pocket the money.
The web site should redistribute to the players that bought into the
satellite since they can't control underage or illegal players on their
web site, but we all know that won't happen.
I can see this happening every year as long as on-line qualifiers are
accepted, and illegal websites will have to do a better job of
confirming that their qualifiers are legitimate and are going to show
up.
To sum this up, I feel that once a players chip enters the tournament,
then the buy-in should also. If a player has registered, (either
through a website or other) they should have to confirm attendance
before the tournament starts or their chips stay out of the tourney,
with their money. Then the casino can refund the money, for legitimate
reasons, or not, if a web-site tries to register an underage or illegal
player.
logdog
playing against and what position you get at the table and then decide you
don't want to play and you get your money back????????? What kind of half
assed outfit is making that rule?
"Gary Carson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:1121014385$560...@recpoker.com...
Susan
"Gary Carson" <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:1121014385$560...@recpoker.com...
> The set a precedent a few years ago with Stu Ungar. He didn't think he
Gary Carson
On Jul 10 2005 9:58 AM, Olemite wrote:
> If an ILLEGAL gambling web-site is registering ILLEGAL players that
> don't show up, then why shouldn't the casino get to keep the money?
You're right.
And casinos should stop accepting bets from drug dealers and bank robbers and
doctors who write too many prescriptions.
Perhaps we could get a federal law that required sheriffs to issue "citizen in
good standing certificates", with photo's and the casinos could check the
certificates before they accepted bets at the craps tables?
Gary Carson
_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
Gary Carson
On Jul 10 2005 10:00 AM, logdog wrote:
> This must be some sort of joke. You are allowed to see who you will be
> playing against and what position you get at the table and then decide you
> don't want to play and you get your money back????????? What kind of half
> assed outfit is making that rule?
>
Didn't you read the post from the Harrah's Tournament Director? The biggest
casino company in the world is doing the World Series of Poker that way.
Gary Carson
On Jul 10 2005 10:00 AM, Susan wrote:
> are you kidding or is this really the policy?
>
>
Read what the guy said.
He said that if you don't take your seat within three hours the chips are
removed from the table and the money is removed from the prize pool and set
aside for a refund.
Hey, he's a tournament director. Who am I to question him? Maybe he requires a
note from a doctor, so only people who's wife is an MD can do this.
The World Series -- it's fucking amatuer hour.
Gary Carson
_______________________________________________________________
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flopalock
everytime there is a problem to plead your case
qqqxxxyyyzzz2000
<garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote:
>The set a precedent a few years ago with Stu Ungar. He didn't think he could
>play his best one year, so he didn't show.and they gave him his money back after
>the event started.
It was the year after he won for the 3d time. His entry was put up by
Billy Baxter who got it back just before cards went in the air.
Baxter had backed him at least twice before. Once when he OD'd while
chip leader and once the year before when he won a million $. Six
months later he was found dead in a hotel room paid for by Bob Stupak.
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=14676&m_id=65560
qqqxxxyyyzzz2000
<garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>On Jul 10 2005 9:58 AM, Olemite wrote:
>
>> If an ILLEGAL gambling web-site is registering ILLEGAL players that
>> don't show up, then why shouldn't the casino get to keep the money?
>
>You're right.
>
>And casinos should stop accepting bets from drug dealers and bank robbers and
>doctors who write too many prescriptions.
>
>Perhaps we could get a federal law that required sheriffs to issue "citizen in
>good standing certificates", with photo's and the casinos could check the
>certificates before they accepted bets at the craps tables?
>
>Gary Carson
>
>
Isn't Vegas run by Mormans anyway? You could call them "Casino
Recommends."
G-Man
On Jul 10 2005 10:07 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Jul 10 2005 10:00 AM, Susan wrote:
>
> > are you kidding or is this really the policy?
> >
> >
>
> Read what the guy said.
>
> He said that if you don't take your seat within three hours the chips are
> removed from the table and the money is removed from the prize pool and set
> aside for a refund.
>
> Hey, he's a tournament director. Who am I to question him? Maybe he requires
> a
> note from a doctor, so only people who's wife is an MD can do this.
>
> The World Series -- it's fucking amatuer hour.
>
> Gary Carson
No he didn't say that you idiot.... you said that. Why don't you get you lazy
ass down to the Rio and talk to Mr Grooms instead of sitting on your lazy ass
behind a computer screen wiseguy?
J.R.
While I am did not flame you or Harrah's about this, I will flame you on the
payouts.
First off, lets look at this year's payouts for the final 18 places compared to
last year, and how much higher the payouts are for the 2005 World Series
compared to last year.
2005
Change 2004
1st: $7,500,000 $2,500,000 (50%) 1st:
$5,000,0002nd: $4,250,000 $750,000
(21.42%) 2nd: $3,500,0003rd:
$2,500,000 $ 0 (0%) 3rd:
$2,500,0004th: $2,000,000 $500,000
(33%) 4th: $1,500,0005th:
$1,750,000 $650,000 (59.09%) 5th:
$1,100,0006th: $1,500,000
$700,000 (87.5%) 6th: $800,0007th:
$1,300,000 $625,000 (92.59%) 7th:
$675,0008th:
$1,150,000 $575,000 (100%) 8th:
$575,0009th: $1,000,000
$530,000 (112.76%) 9th: $470,00010th - 12th:
$600,000 $227,000 (60.85%) 10th - 12th: $373,00013th
- 15th: $400,000 $125,000 (45.45%) 13th - 15th:
$275,00016th - 18th: $350,000 $175,000 (100%)
16th - 18th: $175,000
The payout for this year punishes the third place finisher by not giving them a
cent more than 3rd place last year, despite the fact that over 5,500 players are
in this tournament, while last year had only 2,576 players. They are in a field
twice as large, and get the same amount as 3rd last year, which is very bad
planning on the part of Harrah's and who was in charge of the payouts (I am sure
you had some say in this). I hope you still have time left to review the payouts
again and revise them so that they are fair.
_______________________________________________________________
New Feature: Mark All As Read! - http://www.recpoker.com
RussGe...@aol.com
JGroomsTD wrote:
> Hello all,
> As you can imagine, I have been a bit preoccupied with work, and could not post
> as often as i would have liked. I feel that this subject is EXTREMELY important
> to address, as my integrity is at stake. Before I go any further, let me say
> that questioning my integrity and honesty is worse than spitting in my face. If
> you want to do it, do it to me in person, not on a post. Just like the
> situaions Mac the Cooler flamed me on, why not ask me in person before you
> accuse me or Harrah's of stealing the money.
>
> First, our confirmed number of assigned seats at the end of the first level on
> Day 1A was 5,661.
>
> When I leaked that number, I told several people(including jon) that that number
> was the Maximum number of entries we could account for . We had 1 death between
> registration and play, 5 documented medical emergencies that were granted a
> refund, and 32 players over the first 3 days of play that did not show up to
> play their stacks. we also had 4 players assigned 2 different starting days.
>
> Of those players who did not show up to play, I HAVE NO IDEA WHY THEY DID NOT
> SHOW.
Underage qualifiers were a majority is my assumption.
Quite an assumption! An underage player plays in a tournament which if
he win's, he loses. Now instead of the money being blinded away, it's
picked up? What happens to this money now?
Russ Georgiev
Gary Carson
On Jul 10 2005 11:29 AM, G-Man wrote:
>
>
> On Jul 10 2005 10:07 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jul 10 2005 10:00 AM, Susan wrote:
> >
> > > are you kidding or is this really the policy?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Read what the guy said.
> >
> > He said that if you don't take your seat within three hours the chips are
> > removed from the table and the money is removed from the prize pool and set
> > aside for a refund.
> >
> > Hey, he's a tournament director. Who am I to question him? Maybe he
> > requires
> > a
> > note from a doctor, so only people who's wife is an MD can do this.
> >
> > The World Series -- it's fucking amatuer hour.
> >
> > Gary Carson
>
>
> No he didn't say that you idiot.... you said that. Why don't you get you lazy
> ass down to the Rio and talk to Mr Grooms instead of sitting on your lazy ass
> behind a computer screen wiseguy?
>
Because it's two blocks away an it's too damn much trouble. He can send a
fucking car if he cares. I'm not on his fucking payroll.
But, yes he did say that.
Here's the quote --
------------------------------
When I leaked that number, I told several people(including jon) that that number
was the Maximum number of entries we could account for . We had 1 death between
registration and play, 5 documented medical emergencies that were granted a
refund, and 32 players over the first 3 days of play that did not show up to
play their stacks. we also had 4 players assigned 2 different starting days.
Of those players who did not show up to play, I HAVE NO IDEA WHY THEY DID NOT
SHOW. Underage qualifiers were a majority is my assumption.
Releasing the payout information before Day 3 would have been an absolutely
moronic thing to do. What happens if a medical emergency comes up in between
days 1 and 3? What happpens if a player dies?
I will not release a prize pool count until I am absolutely certain the number
is right . I have made that mistake before, and it is really embarrasing, and
pisses th players off to no end. Also, in this event, the world is watching, so
every mistake is magnified.
Check the chip count. When chip counts are released for 27, add up the number
of missed blinds from our no shows for about 3 hrs of player per player.
---------------------------------
What do you think that means?
Do you think that means that if I decide not to play for any reason at all that
I only get my money back if I have a note from my mother?
Do you think it's hard for someone who's wife is an MD would have a hard time
documenting a "legitimate medical emergency".
Then he goes on in his post to explain why it's just too hard to actually get an
accurate count of chips in play.
They actually pay this clown for this kind of incompetence.
J.R.
Sorry about the bad layout, here it is again:
While I am did not flame you or Harrah's about this, I will flame you on the
payouts.
First off, let s look at this year's payouts for the final 18 places compared to
last year, and how much higher the payouts are for the 2005 World Series
compared to last year.
2005 Change 2004
1st: $7,500,000 $2,500,000(50%) 1st: $5,000,000
2nd: $4,250,000 $750,000 (21.42%) 2nd: $3,500,000
3rd: $2,500,000 $ 0 (0%) 3rd: $2,500,000
4th: $2,000,000 $500,000 (33%) 4th: $1,500,000
5th: $1,750,000 $650,000 (59.09%) 5th: $1,100,000
6th: $1,500,000 $700,000 (87.5%) 6th: $800,000
7th: $1,300,000 $625,000 (92.59%) 7th: $675,000
8th: $1,150,000 $575,000 (100%) 8th: $575,000
9th: $1,000,000 $530,000 (112.76%) 9th: $470,000
10-12: $600,000 $227,000 (60.85%) 10-12: $373,000
13-15: $400,000 $125,000 (45.45%) 13-15: $275,000
16-18: $350,000 $175,000 (100%) 16-18: $175,000
The payout for this year punishes the third place finisher by not giving them a
cent more than 3rd place last year, despite the fact that over 5,500 players are
in this tournament, while last year had only 2,576 players. They are in a field
twice as large, and get the same amount as 3rd last year, which is very bad
planning on the part of Harrah's and who was in charge of the payouts (I am sure
you had some say in this). I hope you still have time left to review the payouts
again and revise them so that they are fair to all players.
_______________________________________________________________
Bryan S. Slick
[Sun, 10 Jul 05 19:17:44 GMT]
:The payout for this year punishes the third place finisher by not giving them a
:cent more than 3rd place last year, despite the fact that over 5,500 players are
:in this tournament, while last year had only 2,576 players. They are in a field
:twice as large, and get the same amount as 3rd last year, which is very bad
:planning on the part of Harrah's and who was in charge of the payouts (I am sure
:you had some say in this). I hope you still have time left to review the payouts
:again and revise them so that they are fair to all players.
It seems fairly obvious that the reason 3rd didn't jump was so that the
rest of the final table could, and they can blather on about how the
entire final table is winning at least a million.
--
Bryan S. Slick, onyx_hokie at yahoo dot com
"To those who have fought for it,
freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
J.R.
Horrible, hell I could do better
On Jul 10 2005 3:23 PM, Bryan S. Slick wrote:
> It seems fairly obvious that the reason 3rd didn't jump was so that the=20
> rest of the final table could, and they can blather on about how the=20
> entire final table is winning at least a million.
>
> --=20
> Bryan S. Slick, onyx_hokie at yahoo dot com
>
> "To those who have fought for it,
> freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
_______________________________________________________________
Olemite
underage, then they deserve to lose their money. The casino should not
be obliged to refund their money.
However, I am still curious as to how the situation was handled this
year, and where the money is. Simply just saying that it is assumed
the players are underage doesn't tell us where the money went. Some of
those players chips are in play but their prize money isn't?
TD Lowball
Gary Carson <garyc...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote:
>
> One thing you could have done is simply announce the number of players
> registered (not an estimate of the number registered) and that the prize pool
> won't be finialized until 3 hours into the final Day 1 flight so you can
> adjust
> for refunds due to no shows. Just say that, straight up, in a press
> release.
> Don't make it some little secret that you mumble to people.
>
And as well, you can put down a open unambigious explanation of the
refund policy, and the disposal of unclaimed refunds.
TD Lowball ---
kroniz
On Jul 10 2005 12:10 PM, qqqxxxyyyzzz2000 wrote:
> >
> Isn't Vegas run by Mormans anyway? You could call them "Casino
> Recommends."
LMAO- just dont make us wear the funny underwear.- KroniZ
_______________________________________________________________
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Alway...@aol.com
some things, overall I thought it was pretty well run. With that said,
color me confused on a few things:
You say if you take into account the chips that were removed from the
table and average blah blah blah.... are you saying that orphan stacks
are not counted down as they are removed from play? And if not, why
not?
In years past there was always been a list of the players entered. I
haven't seen one this year, will there be such a list and if not, why
not?
It was clear (to me anyway) that if you paid and then wanted to
withdraw, you could only do so in causes of death, death of an
immediate relative and possible illness on your part. Was this really
a policy or did it depend? i.e. if a player didn't show up, under what
circumstances can he get a refund? And if you choose not to refund him,
where does the money go, since it doesn't seem to be included in the
prize pools? And while on the subject Danny Negreanu wrote in his blog
that he went to Wynn and got money for all his buy in's and did them.
He later wrote that he didn't feel like playing a couple of days and
didn't. Did he get a refund, or was he bound by the death, deceased
and illness policy? Personally, I don't like the no refund policy, I
think it prohibits people from sending in funds early. I like the
Foxwoods policy that you can withdraw prior to the start of the
tournament for any reason, and don't think this tournament should be
any different... perhaps with the exception of once you withdraw you
can't re-enter, to avoid situations where people don't like the day
they drew and try again.
Lastly, there was no color up yet in the 10K event. If I ran the
number correctly on excel it shows a chip count of 55,802,741 (the 1
appears to come from a typo in a stack that show chips of xx,xx6.) If
the offical count is 5,619 players where are the other 817,000 thousand
in chips? It was been said that 10-15 players were not on the official
list of who made it to Day Two due to their chip count papers being
sealed in the bag with their chips. Do these 10 -15 players make up
the exact difference? Were they recorded as they came out of the bags
and will an update on the names and counts be given in a timely manner?
While I doubt that any foul play is happening here, how did it happen,
who didn't follow procedures... will the corrected updates be out
before any color up take place to compare actually chip counts?.....can
you see how bad this looks?
I know you work long hours and you put your heart and soul into this
tournament. But at the end of day, it's not what your intention was,
but what the result was.
Joan
Bryan S. Slick
[10 Jul 2005 14:13:05 -0700]
: If
:the offical count is 5,619 players where are the other 817,000 thousand
:in chips?
<nitpick>
817,000 thousand = 817 million
</nitpick>
--
Alway...@aol.com
Bryan S. Slick wrote:
>
> <nitpick>
>
> 817,000 thousand = 817 million
>
> </nitpick>
Good point. Good thing I am not a TD :-) (shouldn't have added the
zero's or should have taken out the word thousand)
But while I am here....... I was thinking about my first 10K
tournament. I was in my room preparing for Day Two and adding up the
total chips in play and discovering they were way off. (Foxwoods has
sheets at the casino available for players) I trippled checked them,
calculator, cut and paste into excel, etc.. I don't remember what they
were off by let's say 80,000 (not 80,000 thousand :-) After talking to
Andy Bloch and Russell Rosenblum we decided to talk to the TD, Mike
Ward. Mike was sure the counts were off due to a typo, if you know me,
you will know that doesn't cut it :-) So, I continued with: Are these
seperate chips then what are used in the satellites? Answer, Yes. Do
you know your starting number of chips allocated to this tournament?
Yes. Then if you count what is left in the safe, you should come up
with a number that should be able to confirm your theory of a typo?
Yes. God Bless that man, he counted the chips compared the numbers and
it was suspected that a player with 8,000 chips was reported as 88,000.
When the actual bags were returned to the players, the bag itself
noted 88,000 by the staff person that did it, but, it was clearly 8,000
and the player confirmed it. My point here is mistakes happen. But I
was livid... madder than a wet hornet and the TD didn't tell me to get
lost, he took it seriously even though he was 100% sure what the error
was. And the bigger point here is they had procedures in place so that
when a "wet hornet" like myself demands answers they didn't have a
problem producing one. Mistakes happen.
Joan
Gary Carson
The kind of mistake you describe below is inexcusable.
Not the mistake of writing the wrong number on the outside of the bag.
But, the mistake of not checking anything until they release the numbers and you
asked about it.
They have procedures in place, but the managment simply does care enough to do
the simple checking that the process requires them to do for the process to
work.
The error should have been caught long before you noticed it, and it would have
been if the management actually gave a shit about the chip counts and about
safeguarding your money.
As long as there are no consequences for them misslaying your money they will
not give a shit.
Gary Carson
On Jul 10 2005 3:03 PM, Alway...@aol.com wrote:
> Bryan S. Slick wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > 817,000 thousand = 817 million
> >
> >
>
>
_______________________________________________________________
happyjuggler0
JGroomsTD wrote:
> Before I go any further, let me say
> that questioning my integrity and honesty is worse than spitting in my face. If
> you want to do it, do it to me in person, not on a post.
What if I question your intelligence and can't get to Vegas for some
face time?
> First, our confirmed number of assigned seats at the end of the first level on
> Day 1A was 5,661.
>
> When I leaked that number, I told several people(including jon) that that number
> was the Maximum number of entries we could account for . We had 1 death between
> registration and play, 5 documented medical emergencies that were granted a
> refund, and 32 players over the first 3 days of play that did not show up to
> play their stacks. we also had 4 players assigned 2 different starting days.
>
> Of those players who did not show up to play, I HAVE NO IDEA WHY THEY DID NOT
> SHOW. Underage qualifiers were a majority is my assumption.
I have yet to play in the WSOP. Maybe I never will. However if I do are
you actually telling me that if I get there and my initial table has
Phil Ivey on it that I can leave, find a shady doctor of a friend of a
friend who is a doc, and get a note and get a refund because I think I
am now -EV?
I seriously suggest that next year once the table assignments are
announced and/or the chips are on the table that any no-shows get
blinded off or are elimianted after a certain amount of time/levels.
They get NO REFUND for any reason and the money goes into the prize
pool instead of...where is the money going by the way?
If you withdraw before you know who you are playing, well that money
does not go into the prize pool and it is then up to the casino and the
would be player what happens then...I suggest either a refund or future
tourney credit.
Alway...@aol.com
Gary Carson wrote:
> The kind of mistake you describe below is inexcusable.
>
> Not the mistake of writing the wrong number on the outside of the bag.
>
> But, the mistake of not checking anything until they release the numbers and you
> asked about it.
Yup. And they no longer release the numbers without going through that
procedure, so people like me can confront them. That was 3 years ago.
At the time Mike was swing with double duty of TD. The TD position is
now a full time position and he has all sorts of bells and whistles in
place. i.e. he now has total control over everything.
Joan
kroniz
Mistakes happen.
>
> Joan
Mistakes do happen (like writing down the extra eight) but the safeguards in
place should of caught this simple error before the chip counts were made
public. It really shouldn't take a "wet hornet" to find them out, and then come
up with a solution to varify the accuracy.
..... Thanks for sharing your WSOP ME trip report. - KroniZ
_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
happyjuggler0
Susan wrote:
> are you kidding or is this really the policy?
Count up the number of reasons why the numbers of players are
different. They include the players who never showed up. Take the 5619
and multiply by 10,000. Subtract 6% for the rake. I get a prize pool of
$52,828,600 which is a hair off of what I have seen reported online,
but the figures I have seen may have been wrong or maybe my math is
off.
Anyway, the no-shows with chips on the table don't go into the prize
pool according to the "official" prize pool.
Anyway, if the no-shows don't count for the prize pool then presumably
either they get the refunds or future tourney credits or...well, this
was not spelled out. Maybe Harrah's keeps the money. This would suck
for the player on the left of the no-show who winds up being UTG twice
as often as everyone else. The money belongs in the prize pool in my
opinion.
Maybe I should become friends with my local hospital administration
clerk?
Easy E
" We had 1 death between
registration and play, 5 documented medical emergencies that were
granted a
refund, and 32 players over the first 3 days of play that did not show
up to
play their stacks.
---------------------------------
What do you think that means? "
Gary, I'm not reading the same thing into this as you are. Did I miss
some proof that those 32 players that didn't show got a refund?
I disagree with this policy if that is true. Medical emergencies are
one thing, absenses are another. Unless I was in a coma, I'd make sure
to get word to the people holding MY ten grand.
Susan
"Easy E" <ezer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121100137.6...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Easy E
I'm curious about that as well.
Alway...@aol.com
kroniz wrote:
> Mistakes happen.
> >
> > Joan
>
> Mistakes do happen (like writing down the extra eight) but the safeguards in
> place should of caught this simple error before the chip counts were made
> public. It really shouldn't take a "wet hornet" to find them out, and then come
> up with a solution to varify the accuracy.
> ..... Thanks for sharing your WSOP ME trip report. - KroniZ
Well to be fair. Mike was already aware, before the "wet hornet"
showed up. It just couldn't be verified until the chips were unsealed
(they were all bagged and in the vault). He had worked late into the
night, the chip report was made by someone early the next morning and
Mike had just arrived for another long day before the discussion took
place (and the others did not have access to the locked unused chips).
Also as previously mentioned he was a swing manager that was given TD
duties back then. He is now a full time TD in control of the entire
process and nothing is release without his consent. I truly believe
they are doing it right.
As for my WSOP trip report, I played in the Palms tourney last night
(sidenote, great room, floor gets the rulings correct, most dealers
were great - only real complaint is the chips, they are easy to
confuse)and once we got to the money, though I was an average stack it
was muck or move time and I moved utg with QQ to be called by the bb
with 55. 5 on the turn, ighn as he had me by about 900 chips. A profit
of $75 ($50 if you count the dealer tip) for 5 1/2 hours of work. So
today I took up "Let it Ride" and got $650 for my 5 hours of work.
Maybe I will stick with -EV games :-)
Joan