Why didn't Farha call?
BlackLabel
Why didn't Sammy Farha call Chris Moneymaker's all in river bluff with a
busted straight and flush draw? He easily made other major calls
during the tournament with top pair and weak to middling kickers
(Thorson, Boyd, Vahedi). And he seemed to have the correct poker read
on the situation, that Moneymaker was following through with a river
bluff after semi bluffing his draw on the turn. My guess is that it
was his read on the psychology of the situation. That this kid would
not dare bluff off all his money holding nothing. I mean how would
Moneymaker feel having to explain that to people. Remember how his
mother sounded almost horrified at his father's speculation on whether
their son was bluffing. No if he had to lose, he would want to go down
with his head held high, having played "correctly". So Farha figured
that Moneymaker must really have two pair, a straight, or a flush and
folded.
I posted this in an another thread, so I apologize for being
repetitive. But I am really curious what others think was behind
Farha's decision to fold.
--
BlackLabel
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EddieRat
Why do people want to second guess professional gamblers decisions? Sam
Farha has played and gambled more money than most people in this forum
would ever dream about. The reason Sammy didnt call is because he is a
professional and he thought it was the right thing to do. Just because
we get to see hole cards now it makes it to easy (for amateurs) to
second guess.
The only way to look at it is this, "The Bluffer got bluffed"
It was a very gutsy move by MM and it was exciting, MM made gutsy calls
all week and his tourney could have ended at several different times.
We all know weird things happen during heads up and we got a helluva
finish last night.
--
EddieRat
The Artist Formerly Known As Your Highness
Farha couldn't read him correctly. Hell, nobody could read Moneymaker
correctly. Look at the laundry list of pros that Moneymaker knocked
out heads-up. The guy was a friggin' F5 tornado on the final table.
Sure MM's an amateur and got lucky in spots, but sometimes you make
your own luck. Farha had plenty of time to observe MM's betting
persona, but when it came time to put up or shut up, Farha blinked.
For Sammy, it was the ol' 50-50-90 rule. Whenever you're faced with a
50/50 decision, 90% of the time you pick the wrong choice.
Robert W. Rooney
in, then he realized that his pair of nines was no good (even though they
really were). Even if he is sure that MM wanted the flush card to come,
how does he know it wasn't a hand like AA's, KK's, JJ's or TT's with a
spade, or a hand like A9 with the A of spades?
I think he just wasn't sure enough to call the pair of nines for all his
chips.
_________________________________________________________________
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Howard Lederer
He had already refused an even split of the money when Moneymaker had him
2-1 in chips at the start of heads-up. If he felt that the call was a close
decision, then waiting to outplay him was right. I suspect that deep down
he knew that Moneymaker had bluffed him, and on the next hand he steamed a
little with the JT call. It was quickly sinking in that he was not going to
be able to run over Moneymaker and he immediately regretted the lay down.
Howard Lederer
"BlackLabel" <BlackLab...@timelimit.pokeritis.com> wrote in message
news:BlackLab...@timelimit.pokeritis.com...
PBae
cheap showdown rather than make an all in bet where if you are called, he
probably has you beat?
-PB
"Robert W. Rooney" <anon...@tenspeed.com> wrote in message
news:3f4d2ec0$0$10465$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
Robert W. Rooney
sell the hand for as much as you can get if you think that a call is
possible. In this case, the pot got so huge, that if I had an overpair
and put my opponent on something like A9, I would bet big hoping for a
call because it's hard to fold with that much money in the pot. If Farha
had a better kicker with his pair, I'm sure he would have called, but he
also had to worry not only about the overpair but also a hand like A9 or
K9 which an aggressive player might have heads up. Two nines with no
kicker isn't much to risk your whole tournament on.
All in all, it was a somewhat insane bluff, but it was so crazy that Farha
didn't believe Moneymaker would try to pull it off and ended up folding
the best hand.
Robert W. Rooney
like he did to me, based on the banter afterwards where Sammy claimed to
have two QQ's and Moneymaker didn't seem to believe him at all.
I wasn't sure about whether Farha had a read or not when he mentioned the
"busted flush draw", I thought perhaps he was just fishing for a tell.
One thing you gotta give MM is that he's hard to read.
BTW, glad to see you made the money, hopefully I'll get to play against
you someday if I can ever win one of these god-forsaken super satellites.
:)
_________________________________________________________________
Jason Root
I noticed you layed down AK when Moneymaker had pkt AA and he made a big
bet at you. Did you fold because of the bet.. or did you pick something up
on him?
On Aug 27 2003 8:30AM, Howard Lederer wrote:
_________________________________________________________________
Debbie in Ohio
final show.
Sammy said that when he plays against whom he considers to be 'Good Players'
(IE: Tight Players), he can play a lot more loose, and call down weaker
hands, and bluff more often, than when he's playing against those whom he
considers to be 'bad players' (IE: Loose players), which he said he has to
have the nuts to go up against them, or go all in against them.
This I suspect it's because someone Like Chris MM is very unpredictable.
Thus, since Sammy only had a Pair of 9's, and there WERE three of the same
suite on the board, it was possible that that Chris MM might of indeed made
his flush, in which case, Sammy would of been creamed and out of the tourney
if he had called Chris MM.
The funny thing is that IMO, Chris MM's style appears to be very much like
Sammy's playing style.
Thus, I found it quite ironic that in effect, Chris pulled a Sammy Farha on
Sammy himself, and was laughing my ass off ... when Chris got away with it.
Chris truly earned that pot, much like Sammy did earlier that day, when he
stole the pot from the two tight players who were pro's (Jason Lester I
think it was) with the exact same move.
Yet, I don't hear anyone dis'ing Sammy for that bluff, and I think Chris MM
should get the same Kudo's that Sammy got, for being the Cat burgler and
stealing the pot.
JMHO, FWIW ....
BlackLabel <BlackLab...@timelimit.pokeritis.com> wrote in message
news:BlackLab...@timelimit.pokeritis.com...
>
Terrell Owens
came two spades and he checkekd if i remember correctly. 4th street came
with a third spade and moneymaker made a huge reraise. And then goes all
in on 5th street.
You can't call all your money with a pair of nines in that situation.
Not with just a Q kicker and it looking like moneymaker had the flush
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Beldin the Sorcerer
"Howard Lederer" <hled...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:nea3b.7125$n94.3808@fed1read04...
> I think that Farha overestimated his chances to beat Moneymaker heads-up.
> He had already refused an even split of the money when Moneymaker had him
> 2-1 in chips at the start of heads-up. If he felt that the call was a
close
> decision, then waiting to outplay him was right. I suspect that deep down
> he knew that Moneymaker had bluffed him, and on the next hand he steamed a
> little with the JT call. It was quickly sinking in that he was not going
to
> be able to run over Moneymaker and he immediately regretted the lay down.
Quick question : Has Binions changed their "No deals" on the WSOP (as
related in Positively Fifth Street) or was this proposed off-site somewhere?
Craig Franck
> Why didn't Sammy Farha call Chris Moneymaker's all in river bluff with a
> busted straight and flush draw?
[...]
> My guess is that it
> was his read on the psychology of the situation. That this kid would
> not dare bluff off all his money holding nothing. I mean how would
> Moneymaker feel having to explain that to people.
That's true. Also, Farha knew himself to be the better player. If he
figured he was a 3 to 1 favorite to out play him as the night wore on,
he would need to be a big favorite to call off all his chips. Top pair 9
with a Q kicker wasn't a good enough hand. An amateur should be
looking to get all in and let the cards decide, while a pro should avoid
that.
This is an interesting aspect to tournament NLHE. A cocky kid who
is willing to constantly shove mountains of chips at you and go all in
can negate decades of poker playing experience. It's just not a normal
situation.
--
Craig Franck
craig....@verizon.net
Cortland, NY
Earl
players with the long hours.
"BlackLabel" <BlackLab...@timelimit.pokeritis.com> wrote in message
news:BlackLab...@timelimit.pokeritis.com...
>
The Dark Alley Asskicker
>busted straight and flush draw?
Because he wasn't watching the hand on ESPN and didn't know what Moneymaker
actually had. That is why.
AnonymousWithReason
flush draw..." but didn't feel confident enough in his read, although
this was his initial thought. He then put MM on a pair of Jacks
(which is why he said he had queens, to gauge his reaction and see if
he was reading his opponent correctly).
When Sam says "you sure you want to do that?" or gives you a certain
look, he usually has a nice hand. Not neccesarily the nuts, but you
should usually proceed with caution. MM made a fine play here. Based
on what I know about Farha, and if I didn't know Sam's cards, I would
have put him on a flopped or turned set. I would not have been able
to make the move that MM did.
Sometimes, it pays not to know your opponent too well. Sam does
strike fear into alot of players, mostly because we never know what
the prick (a term of affection, I assure you) really has. With Sam,
small cards=big headaches. Know that when I am at his table, I am not
playing against him, or trying to break him. I am trying to stay out
of his way, and look for easier money elsewhere on the table.
But Sam, the next time you are gonna appear on national TV, put on
your GOOD suit, will ya?
--Mr. Anonymous.
P.S. as far as that "left handed chip" tell, no, it is not 100%
accurate (I should say WAS not 100% accurate. But there were other
things that went along with it. These things are now completely
useless.
Rich
<anon...@tenspeed.com> wrote:
>Did you think that Moneymaker had a read that Farha had the 9? It seemed
>like he did to me, based on the banter afterwards where Sammy claimed to
>have two QQ's and Moneymaker didn't seem to believe him at all.
I don't think I would have believed him either, even if I hadn't seen
the hold cards. It seemed pretty obvious that he was bullshitting, I
don't think even Sammy thought Chris would believe it.
Rich
Howard Lederer
correctly decided that he would not call without a big hand. Trying to take
an exact read on Farha's hand was not important, guessing how strong his
hand was was more important.
Howard Lederer
"Robert W. Rooney" <anon...@tenspeed.com> wrote in message
news:3f4d3ac2$0$23194$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
Howard Lederer
hand, I simply laid down ace high when I got raised on the flop. No read,
just a value play.
Howard Lederer
"Jason Root" <anon...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:3f4d3d6f$0$10452$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
Howard Lederer
Howard Lederer
"Beldin the Sorcerer" <bel...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:25c3b.13415$jY2....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Beldin the Sorcerer
> I am unaware of a no-deal policy at Binion's.
>
> Howard Lederer
>
and Chris both said they wouldn't go for it anyway, but the morning of the
event, all six players at the final table were cautioned by Binion that no
deals would be allowed for this event.
Now McManus could have made the whole thing up for his book, but since the
deal didn't happen, why would he?
d'Amphoux
> I am unaware of a no-deal policy at Binion's.
> >
> > related in Positively Fifth Street) or was this proposed off-site
> somewhere?
> >
I believe the book stated that they (?Binions or TV Producers?) asked
the final table not to make deals "at the table" so that it wouldn't
be recorded on TV and to maintain to the viewing audience that they
were playing for the win AND the money.
There was also some mention of TJ not wanting to take a deal because
he had a "no-deals at final tables" agreement with his backer at the
time.
Mike d'Amphoux
----
bust-...@hush.spam.com
flopping JJ5 created a pokerstars bad beat last night
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Steve Brecher
>
> "Howard Lederer" <hled...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:Byk3b.7222$n94.110@fed1read04...
> > I am unaware of a no-deal policy at Binion's.
> >
> > Howard Lederer
> >
> "Positively Fifth Street" has a discussion of a deal for the 2000 WSOP. TJ
> and Chris both said they wouldn't go for it anyway, but the morning of the
> event, all six players at the final table were cautioned by Binion that no
> deals would be allowed for this event.
p. 315: "Bob Thompson apparently cornered each of us -- either last night or
this morning -- to strictly proscribe any 'chop,' especially in front of the
cameras. As he told me last night by way of apology for the warning: 'It's
a tough way to make an easy living.'"
--
For mail, please use my surname where indicated:
st...@surname.reno.nv.us (Steve Brecher)
Jester
I think Farha was exactly right to lay down those 9s. Seemed like an
easy decision.
One spot where he screwed up was when he checked his Jack I thought...a
few hands before. Shouldn't he have seen where he was in the hand on
that flop?
--
Jester - River Catcher