pokerbot.com - winholdem - team edition - request for comments
WinHoldemSupport
to all online holdem players everywhere:
as you know pokerbot.com manufactures and markets a pokerbot called
winholdem to the online poker playing community.
we want to know if the opcs will discontinue their anti-bot policies if we
pull the team edition from the market. (we would refund the $100
difference to the existing players).
we want to know how many players out there are declining to become
winholdem customers because of the team edition.
we want to know how many players out there do think a player has the right
to use computer assistance in an online holdem game.
we want to know how many players out there do not want players using bots.
we would also like to hear from the opc's themselves.
the opc's claim that nearly 100% of players do not want other players
using computer assistance.
based on the response we are seeing to our product we do not believe that
the opc claims are accurate in the least.
however, we do believe that the large majority of players would favor a
game where collusion was impossible. (we would too).
we want to be responsive to the market and we are willing to pull the team
edition and dismantle the channel server if the opcs will admit that the
vast majority of players do indeed favor solid holdem assistance software.
we await your response.
winholdem management.
http://www.pokerbot.com
_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com
FL-
Go to hell.
John Forsberg
ethics, I don't think there's anything you can do to redeem yourself.
But, if you never had included the collusion enabling features we
probably would have gone a lot easier on you. Mind you, we still would
have mocked you for the poker content of your writings, but I for one
wouldn't have been so inclined to refer to you as a scamming a**hole.
Also there is the issue of the software "phoning home", if that hadn't
been there I also would have considered you to be less likely to be a
scammer.
Dave's Fridge
" I hate you OPCs, read my abuse, but hey please help me by answering some
questions "
Ha ha.
*we* = Ray and his hamster.
Loser. How many have you sold then? He he. I can't stop laughing. What a
tosspot.
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:7Sk6c.11035109$Of.18...@news.easynews.com...
Born Stoopid
"WinHoldemSupport"
>
> we want to know how many players out there do think a player has the right
> to use computer assistance in an online holdem game.
Computer assistance in the form of advice...I can't see a problem with that.
Computer assistance in the form of playing unattended..I have a HUGE problem
with that.
>
> we want to know how many players out there do not want players using bots.
If they want to play in a bot only environment, fine..Otherwise, not a
chance.
WinHoldemSupport
it is time for you to publically state whether you are for or against
online holdem players using computer assistance while they play.
this will allow others here to color your comments based on your political
position.
winholdem support.
http://www.pokerbot.com
_________________________________________________________________
thedudeoflife
in programming a bot to play poker. I want to actively play in poker games
against other humans.
I do not want to play poker vs bots and will leave a table that has bots
playing in the game.
I think a player has a right to use a bot at an OPR if said OPR allows
them. I do not think a player has a right to use a bot at an OPR that has
policies that prohibit them.
Mr. Winholdemsupport
I applaud this marketing survey. It is the first instance of business
acumen you have shown. Normally, though, businessmen will conduct a
preliminary marketing survey before they go full throttle with research
and development.
John Forsberg
> Computer assistance in the form of advice...I can't see a problem with that.
> Computer assistance in the form of playing unattended..I have a HUGE problem
> with that.
against. But that will probably change. Anyway I don't really see the
distinction between advising and playing for. It's not like in sports
when there might be a difficulty in translating advice into correct actions.
Dave's Fridge
pretending to be someone else. Your business idea is totally fucked now Ray.
Give up.
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:7Sk6c.11035109$Of.18...@news.easynews.com...
EL GAUCHO
Translation:
Paradise (or some other site) found a way to block our software from
being used and we have no technical solution to this problem. (or our
customers are tired of downloading an upgrade every day with a
contermeasure to the contermeasure) Our business will be F...ed, so I am
now playing a nice guy saying we don't want collusion (before it was,
collusion already exists so what is the problem).
If players want to play a computer, they will buy your software like they
do a chess engine.
So please go away and I hope all the anti-bot policies are succefull. If
the Poker sites have policies about using Bots and any player is caught
using one, I hope they realize they could lose their deposits. This is
probably the best incentive to keep your software a failure (other than
for rersearch purposes).
OnlinePlayer
First, because no bot will ever be better than the best players. This isn't
chess where a computer can out-think Gary Kasparov. It's poker. Cards are
only part of the game. Psychology and social behavior are as much a part of
a winning strategy as statistics and probabilities.
Also because it has never been proven that your software doesn't include a
trojan horse or some other virus that will allow you to see my computer when
I am playing cards.
Dave's Fridge
scam.
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:Q5l6c.88182$iA2....@news.easynews.com...
John Forsberg
> john,
>
> it is time for you to publically state whether you are for or against
> online holdem players using computer assistance while they play.
Ray, I don't mind it personally. However if it is against the rules it's
still cheating, I don't condone _any_ form of cheating. I don't like
cheating, I don't like scamming, I don't like willful ignorance. Also
I'd like World Peace for christmas. I've no idea what that has to do
with anything though.
P.S. You should enquire with someone at the company about purchasing a
shift-key.
WinHoldemSupport
the fact the we have demonstrated publically that holdem cannot be
protected 100% from collusion has zero bearing on our ethics. we are very
angry with an industry that advances itself as one safe from collusion in
the minds of new player everywhere. we are proving a point that needs to
be proven once and for all.
we want to send a message loud and clear to innocent players entering the
game that it is impossible for anybody to offer you protection from
colluders and that we view any entity that would assert such a thing is
possible with the expectation that you believe it, is about as unethical
as you can get. and we find nothing unehtical about drawing attention to
this fact. we have done nothing but attempt to draw attention to it while
the opcs and other suspect players have tried to hide it and ignore it.
the point is that it is very clear from responses here and on 2+2 that
many players enter the game believing that they are somehow magically
protected from collusion when they in fact are not.
we want the opcs to own up to this and draw attention to it instead of
hiding deep inside a tos that may or may not be easy to find on their site.
we also suspect any player who would not be in favor of such a public
notice as one who wants to advance this illusion to incoming players in
order to keep the fishy food supply alive and well.
we want the entire industry to own up in this regard.
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
On Mar 18 2004 12:28PM, John Forsberg wrote:
_________________________________________________________________
WinHoldemSupport
we appreciate your honest response.
thank you.
winholdem support.
http://www.pokerbot.com
_________________________________________________________________
Dave's Fridge
themselves....
or will you now claim another set of respondents representing the majority
of poker players have replied in private?
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:7Sk6c.11035109$Of.18...@news.easynews.com...
John Forsberg
> I'm declining to use your software for two reasons:
>
> First, because no bot will ever be better than the best players.
That statement doesn't seem very well thought through. If poker ever
becomes a subject that AI-researchers start putting a lot of effort in,
there's only a question of time before machines completely out-perform
humans in poker. I do think that such results would require a lot of
resources, so I'm not particularly worried that someone will build a
powerful poker engine on their own. It's my belief that serious
researchers will crack the game eventually.
If you want to research the subject you could start by reading the
articles from the reserchers behind poki-poker, they can be found at
their home page.
Dave's Fridge
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:ajl6c.11036739$Of.18...@news.easynews.com...
WinHoldemSupport
we thank you for your honest reply.
please clarify 'bot'. we're sure we understand you but please clarify
anyway.
http://www.winholdem.net/wh_pricing.php
the basic and speed editions do not qualify as bots.
the pro edition is certainly a bot
the team edition could certainly be renamed SuperColluderPro.
normally we would agree with your recommended strat. in going forward,
however in this particular case there was no way to proceed without
providing a very very demonstrable frame of reference for everyone. there
were just too many factors that we could not possibly expect the entire
market to firmly understand without some kind of hard example and real
frame of reference. it is one thing to talk about hypothetical
possibilities it is another thing entirely to discuss a 'real' thing that
can be publically verified by one and all. so yes we stepped on a few
toes but that was absolutely necessary to get some to rethink through some
issues.
once again thank you for your response,
winholdem support.
http://www.pokerbot.com
WinHoldemSupport
yes we do have a countermeasure.
counter measures are a non-issue.
we are just taking this opportunity to address the public in an honest
fashion.
winholdem support.
http://www.pokerbot.com
thedudeoflife
effort in, there's only a question of time before machines completely
out-perform humans in poker.
I think what will happen is that in a long running raked pot limit HE
game, which is the game being discussed in this case, made of of expert
bots and expert human players the net p&l for each player over time will
become more and more negative thus rendering participation a big financial
waste of time.
WinHoldemSupport
unless you trust the person providing the proof,
there is no way for you to truly verify that winholdem is not a trojan
unless you actually use it in conjunction with a firewall where all out
going connections are blocked so that you can see that winholdem never
under any circumstances does anything but be a holdem computer for you.
this test would have to allow winholdem to contact our license server one
time on startup to verify your license ... after that you could close
firewall and winholdem will run perfectly fine and you will never see it
attempt to send anything whatsoever.
others have already verified this on their own, and they have posted
results but if you do not know the poster then you only have their word on
the subject.
winholdem support.
http://www.pokerbot.com
_________________________________________________________________
WinHoldemSupport
so that is a no vote for you on bots.
you are publically against them as of this moment.
do you agree with everything the opcs do?
would you be in favor of a required popup on launch that draws attention
to the fact their player cannot be given a guarantee that one or more
opponents are not using a bot and/or colluding against them?
or would you prefer that the opcs not draw attention to this fact?
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
_________________________________________________________________
thedudeoflife
is given the inputs as to the player's hole cards, the community cards on
the board and the other players' actions in the hand being played, and
then makes or suggests a course of action.
WinHoldemSupport
please clarify?
http://www.winholdem.net/wh_pricing.php
given the definitions of the basic and speed editions
would you personally permit players to use these while they play?
thanks,
winholdem support.
thedudeoflife
or all of the criteria which I specified to define a bot..Are you
deliberately trying to be obtuse? I mean a 10 year old could have answered
your question based on my answer to your previous question. I don't know
why I am giving you free consultation. I just can see that with regards to
this project "your toe is on the trigger" and maybe I can lead you towards
more constructive endeavors...
WinHoldemSupport
im just a support grunt. not trying to be obtuse.
trying to remove all doubt as to your view.
your desire is that online holdem afford the player nothing more than they
would have in a live game. (obviously assuming they cannot use any
electronic assistance while at a b&m table).
do you not see this as an unreal expectation given what you know about how
internet users feel about their sovereignty within their own home and on
their own machine?
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
John Forsberg
> john,
>
> so that is a no vote for you on bots.
> you are publically against them as of this moment.
Why not. Are you going somewhere with this?
>
> do you agree with everything the opcs do?
No, I think disconnect protection is bad for instance.
>
> would you be in favor of a required popup on launch that draws attention
> to the fact their player cannot be given a guarantee that one or more
> opponents are not using a bot and/or colluding against them?
No, that would be annoying. It's also quite redundant, if someone thinks
they are 100% not to be cheated, they won't be bright enough to
understand the pop-ups anyway. You never have 100% on anything in life,
the only thing you can hope for is that the sites will do their best to
enforce their policy. If you don't think that's enough you have the very
real option of not playing. That's what I choose to do in regards to any
game I don't think I can beat.
thedudeoflife
Well, as a support grunt you tell your boss' that I said you deserve a
promotion. I think you should be made VP of marketing.
Jen
Shouldn't your marketing department be responsible for this? How does this
fall under technical support? Besides, from some of the stuff you've said on
here, you would be the LAST person I'd give an outward-facing position to,
since you're quite insane.
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:P4m6c.10948568$Id.18...@news.easynews.com...
James Campbell
and you don't have a way to side step it...
If you are selling so many copies of WinHoldEm, why even ask this question?
If there is nothing wrong with "team play" why ask this question?
One version down, 3 to go!
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:7Sk6c.11035109$Of.18...@news.easynews.com...
James Campbell
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:P4m6c.10948568$Id.18...@news.easynews.com...
knode89
I do NOT want computer assistance on online sites.
I want MORE anti-bot policies in place.
NO, I do not want your crap programs.
So Leave Poker and never come back.
Is that plain enough for you?
faque
we thank you for your honest reply.
please clarify 'crap'. we're sure we understand you but please clarify
anyway.
once again thank you for your response,
winholdem support.
http://www.pokerbot.com
PocketKings
That's interesting... management might be upset if they saw how you signed
the initial post.
>winholdem management.
>http://www.pokerbot.com
I suppose since management has a grunt doing their marketing they probably
aren't reading this and you should be fine.
-Trevor
Nuts4daNuts
You claimed in another thread that PartyPoker, in responding to an inquiry
of yours, divulged very detailed inside information on the playing habits
and strategy of an opponant. You're obsessed with winholdem and what you
percieve to be the potential damage that this product could cause.
However, I believe that (assuming you were telling the truth, and you
swear to God that you are) employees feeding this sort of information to
its players is 10 times worse than anything WH can come up with... but you
don't express any outrage at all over this situation, in fact it appears
that you found it humorous.
Which is why I truly believe that all the gnashing of teeth over WH is not
about "playing against bots" or some other bogus excuse, but because a
product like WH exposes just how corrupt and unpoliceable (if that's a
word) online poker is. I sure don't want to sit at a table where one of my
opponants can just call "Betty" and get a detailed portfolio of my playing
strategy (using information that would ONLY be available to an insider in
the company, as you would never get to see someone else's hole cards
unless you show down your cards). "Hey Betty, FishFood666 just sat down at
my table, can you tell me a little bit about him?" "Sure, he never bluffs,
plays only solid starting hands, and can be pushed out of a pot by an
all-in bet unless he's got the absolute nuts." "Thanks Betty!" And that's
assuming that there is only one opponant at your table with this
information, rather than 3 or 4 of them ganging up on you as a team. AND
not even assuming that an insider doesn't have access to your hole cards
in REAL TIME.
Aren't you outraged that such detailed information on how you play poker
could be floating around?
John Forsberg
perform online, you probably don't belong on a poker table regardless of
any collusion or cheating.
thedudeoflife
revealed. I did find it a bit amusing because I think that the
investigations department lady was just trying to do her job and
unwittingly (probably because she truly doesn't understand the value of me
knowing how another player plays his hands) provided me with insight into
how the player in question had been playing his hands for the last 30
days. The fact that she did reveal this is why I posted the email on this
formum. I actually don't think what she told me was all that valuable
because I think that anyone who had played for over 200 hands (as I had)
with this player would have been able to figure out that this guy was a
major ROCK. I believe that the PP investigations department manager may
want to instruct his staff to refrain from revealing too much about how
opposing players play their hands.
Nuts4daNuts
> Ok. I must say that I did not ask PP for the information that they
> revealed. I did find it a bit amusing because I think that the
> investigations department lady was just trying to do her job and
> unwittingly (probably because she truly doesn't understand the value of me
> knowing how another player plays his hands) provided me with insight into
> how the player in question had been playing his hands for the last 30
> days. The fact that she did reveal this is why I posted the email on this
> formum. I actually don't think what she told me was all that valuable
> because I think that anyone who had played for over 200 hands (as I had)
> with this player would have been able to figure out that this guy was a
> major ROCK. I believe that the PP investigations department manager may
> want to instruct his staff to refrain from revealing too much about how
> opposing players play their hands.
So the mere fact that there are people with access to this information
doesn't strike you as disturbing, to say the least?
And whether you could figure out another player's habits is not the point.
Nuts4daNuts
Actually, many players are oblivious to the true extent of the corruption
and cheating that goes on in an online poker room. Or they wouldn't play.
Jen
"we want to be responsive to the market and we are willing to pull the team
edition and dismantle the channel server if the opcs will admit that the
vast majority of players do indeed favor solid holdem assistance software."
Where is this "vast majority" you speak of? They must be the most silent
majority in world history. In another post, I asked if you had market
numbers, you know, the sort of fundamental market research one would think a
smart individual would base a business model on? Instead of giving me any
statistics, numbers, references, you merely when on this narrative of happy
gazelles and lions romping on the savannah in your lame attempt to draw an
analogy to online poker. But you DID NOT answer my question in any way
resembling a worthwhile response about sound, solid, business planning.
I guess I'm bewildered. Did you go down the rabbit hole and invest your time
and money in a product that is, it would seem, failing to find a niche? I
would LOVE to see your sales numbers. How many people have actually BOUGHT
winholdem? How much traffic is the cheating channel....errrr....collusion
channel seeing?
Sounds like you got caught with your pants down. You can't supply any
information regarding your market research. You can't tell us who your
marketing VP is. You can't tell us who your CEO is. You are the only public
figure that anyone has had contact with in regards to your phantom company
and you are an admitted "support grunt." A "support grunt" addressing the
public and getting market feedback? I don't get it! Isn't sales and
marketing getting a little mad that you're horning in on their job
responsibilities? Shouldn't you be manning your call center when people use
your handy 1-800 to get the answers they need regarding winholdem, the
world's latest "killer app?" Oh wait, you guys don't have a phone number.
Never mind.
You're merely a shylock with a house-of-cards "company" and a bad
e.e.cummings complex.
Jen
:: killing people and burning down trees :: http://douglas.min.net/essay/
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:7Sk6c.11035109$Of.18...@news.easynews.com...
Jen
dork or you're his best friend.
Anyone but me caught onto this act? I must say, you sure are throwing us all
off the scent. Very wily using intial caps while winholdem support dork
thinks he's e.e.cummings.
Jen
:: killing people and burning down trees :: http://douglas.min.net/essay/
"Nuts4daNuts" <anon...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1Po6c.10959159$Id.18...@news.easynews.com...
thedudeoflife
hole cards and their check/bet/fold/call/raise actions. I figured that the
investigations department would have emloyees who have access to this.
This really doesn't disturb me. Here are some other possibilities that may
freak you out some more.If you funded your party poker account with your
credit/bank card then there are people who have access to your name,
address, bank card number. What if "Mary" in the Partypoker cashiering
department decided to send this information to another customer in a email
reply. What if "Chuck" in the systems support department is having sex
with your wife when you are at work?
Nuts4daNuts
> "Betty" works for PP and has access to historical data which show player's
> hole cards and their check/bet/fold/call/raise actions. I figured that the
> investigations department would have emloyees who have access to this.
> This really doesn't disturb me. Here are some other possibilities that may
> freak you out some more.If you funded your party poker account with your
> credit/bank card then there are people who have access to your name,
> address, bank card number. What if "Mary" in the Partypoker cashiering
> department decided to send this information to another customer in a email
> reply. What if "Chuck" in the systems support department is having sex
> with your wife when you are at work?
Chuck having sex with my wife (I'm not married BTW) wouldn't cause me to
lose money by getting cheated at a poker table.
And if someone used my banking information to cheat me, not only would
they be prosecuted but the bank would make me whole (as I would be a
victim of fraud).
What recourse would I have when an unregulated internet poker room cheats
me?
Nuts4daNuts
> Seriously, you are either a phantom account created by winholdem support
> dork or you're his best friend.
Chalk it up to a bad habit of defending the underdog and those who are
attacked in internet message boards by trolls defending corrupt online
poker.
> Anyone but me caught onto this act? I must say, you sure are throwing us all
> off the scent. Very wily using intial caps while winholdem support dork
> thinks he's e.e.cummings.
Have you considered getting help for your paranoia?
Octo
> we want to send a message loud and clear to innocent players entering the
> game that it is impossible for anybody to offer you protection from
> colluders and that we view any entity that would assert such a thing is
> possible with the expectation that you believe it, is about as unethical
> as you can get.
It's unethical to assert that collusion is impossible (which nobody does,
btw), but it's ethical to sell a colluding bot.
The only thing I find interesting about your "arguments" is whether you
actually believe them, in which case you are self-deluding idiot, or whether
you don't, in which case you are a particularly shameless liar.
I just can't figure it out. If I had to guess I'd say.... yes, you are
actually stupid enough to believe you are making a valid point? Am I right?
WinHoldemSupport
we are taking a course of action with the intent to put pressure on the
opc's to popup a dialog on program launch that draws attention to the fact
that they cannot protect players from bots or collusion.
think of us like the truth.com tobacco ads. the ones that get right in
your face, down and dirty and bold with the tobacco companies and users.
we do the same thing only with online poker casinos and players.
nothing unethical about it, just a different tactic.
are you in favor of drawing attention to this or do you want to hide it?
winholdem support.
http://www.pokerbot.com
_________________________________________________________________
C06777
> truly believe that all the gnashing of teeth over WH is not
>about "playing against bots" or some other bogus excuse, but because a
>product like WH exposes just how corrupt and unpoliceable (if that's a
>word) online poker is.
You want to know what *MY* major gripe is about winholdem? It's Ray's posts to
RGP.
Seriously, I might have been one of his customers. Brand new to poker. Didn't
have a clue. Wasn't really aware of the ethical ramifications of bot play.
Was out there buying every book I could get my hands on. Probably would have
purchased his product, just thinking it might be something I needed. Might
never have gotten around to even trying to figure out how to USE it but
probably would have "collected" it nonetheless.
But then I started paying attention to Ray's posts. How rude, obnoxious,
unprofessional he was. How illogical, argumentative and contradictory his
posts.
So you're partially right. It wasn't about playing against bots. It was
simply the human who represents the product.
Deep Throat
here.
Thank you.
C06777
>
> I did not ask PP for the information that they
>revealed. I think that the
>investigations department lady was just trying to do her job and
>unwittingly (probably because she truly doesn't understand the value of me
>knowing how another player plays his hands) provided me with insight into
>how the player in question had been playing his hands for the last 30
>days.
If she is this dimwitted, she should not be working in that position in the
first place.
Apparently she knew enough to be able to interpret the data to say that "He
NEVER bluffs." Even *I* as a complete moron about this game of poker, would
recognize the potential value/danger of revealing such information.
Just my two cents ;)
Deep Throat
> Seriously, you are either a phantom account created by winholdem support
> dork or you're his best friend.
>
> Anyone but me caught onto this act? I must say, you sure are throwing us all
> off the scent. Very wily using intial caps while winholdem support dork
> thinks he's e.e.cummings.
You mean Nuts? No, he's been around here babbling his incoherent nonsense
for a lot longer than this WinHoldem Sleazebag has been peddling his
trojan crap-ware here. I can see how you might think that though, they're
both birds of a feather.
Deep Throat
>
> It's unethical to assert that collusion is impossible (which nobody does,
> btw), but it's ethical to sell a colluding bot.
>
> The only thing I find interesting about your "arguments" is whether you
> actually believe them, in which case you are self-deluding idiot, or whether
> you don't, in which case you are a particularly shameless liar.
>
> I just can't figure it out. If I had to guess I'd say.... yes, you are
> actually stupid enough to believe you are making a valid point? Am I right?
Of course there are some fools somewhere, gullible enough to buy into this
crap. I think he's both a self-deluding idiot *and* a shameless liar.
Nuts4daNuts
> On Mar 18 2004 2:00PM, Jen wrote:
>
> > Seriously, you are either a phantom account created by winholdem support
> > dork or you're his best friend.
> >
> > Anyone but me caught onto this act? I must say, you sure are throwing us
all
> > off the scent. Very wily using intial caps while winholdem support dork
> > thinks he's e.e.cummings.
>
> You mean Nuts? No, he's been around here babbling his incoherent nonsense
> for a lot longer than this WinHoldem Sleazebag has been peddling his
> trojan crap-ware here. I can see how you might think that though, they're
> both birds of a feather.
This is how the criminal poker shill gang trashes anyone who exposes
online poker for what it really is... a cesspool of corruption, cheating,
and rigged hands.
Nuts4daNuts
I don't ever think I'll buy this product either. But you may notice that
it is the same poker shills who clog up this board flaming WH. But the
fact that there are poker sites divulging inside information on your
playing strategies to your opponants doesn't bother them at all. This
proves that these posters are nothing but a gang of trolls whose sole
purpose is to pass off online "poker" as honest and corruption free, which
is as far from the truth as you can get. And to discredit anyone who
either dares post the truth about online poker or sells a product that
exposes exactly what the suckers are up against.
Vodkaputtputt
Maybe its her cousin and he bluffs all the time?
Mark
Deep Throat
> On Mar 18 2004 8:47PM, Deep Throat wrote:
>
> >
> > You mean Nuts? No, he's been around here babbling his incoherent nonsense
> > for a lot longer than this WinHoldem Sleazebag has been peddling his
> > trojan crap-ware here. I can see how you might think that though, they're
> > both birds of a feather.
>
> This is how the criminal poker shill gang trashes anyone who exposes
> online poker for what it really is... a cesspool of corruption, cheating,
> and rigged hands.
Whew, thanks for the heads-up! Now I'll know what to look for. I'm sure
we'll be safe now that the dynamic duo of Nutso and WinTrojan Support are
on the job, I feel much safer already.
Deep Throat
Jen
nonsense
> > > for a lot longer than this WinHoldem Sleazebag has been peddling his
> > > trojan crap-ware here. I can see how you might think that though,
they're
> > > both birds of a feather.
> >
> > This is how the criminal poker shill gang trashes anyone who exposes
> > online poker for what it really is... a cesspool of corruption,
cheating,
> > and rigged hands.
>
> Whew, thanks for the heads-up! Now I'll know what to look for. I'm sure
> we'll be safe now that the dynamic duo of Nutso and WinTrojan Support are
> on the job, I feel much safer already.
Do you think they were spandex costumes and call themselves The Wonder
Twins?
"Wonder Twin powers activate! Form of a usenet troll!"
"No fair! I was gonna be a usenet troll! You took my idea!"
"Well, you can be a useless bag of flesh."
"What a tremendous idea! Form of a useless bag of flesh!"
Ah...the beauty of it boggles the mind.
Paramecium T. Nougat
>
> think of us like the truth.com tobacco ads. the ones that get right in
> your face, down and dirty and bold with the tobacco companies and users.
truth.com tobacco ads aren't selling cancer
/joe
--
GTJETSKI fails to impress angry bob. In the Moral Minority discussion
forum, Graham Coleman interestingly falls off the back of a UPS truck near
the Rich building!! A stereo from Burger King is optimized.
Deep Throat
>
> Do you think they were spandex costumes and call themselves The Wonder
> Twins?
I can't say it would surprise me.
>
> "Wonder Twin powers activate! Form of a usenet troll!"
>
> "No fair! I was gonna be a usenet troll! You took my idea!"
>
> "Well, you can be a useless bag of flesh."
>
> "What a tremendous idea! Form of a useless bag of flesh!"
>
> Ah...the beauty of it boggles the mind.
>
> Jen
> :: killing people and burning down trees :: http://douglas.min.net/essay/
LOL
WinHoldemSupport
we just want a warning on the pack of cigs ok.
not that much to ask.
we want a popup dialog to appear every time anybody launches casino
software that draws attention to the fact that the user cannot be given a
100% guarantee that bots and or collusion will not be used against them.
why?
to keep innocent ethical people away from the game who would choose not to
play if they knew the truth ...
online poker is only as ethical as the people participating in it.
we are fed up with an industry that promotes itself as ethical and safe,
so we thought we'd prove that it is impossible to guarantee that everyone
will be ethical when money is involved.
we're not asking that the industry go away - thats impossible.
we just want the opcs to do more to draw attention to a weakness.
they do not have to feel sorry about it either.
you cannot blame an opc because they cannot guarantee a safe game.
it is not their fault. it is the characteristics of the internet combined
with human nature when real money is involved.
so what is the big deal here?
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
_________________________________________________________________
James Campbell
collusion is possible, but I think they should continue to do their best to
stop WinHoldEm type devices.
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:Q4w6c.10989564$Id.18...@news.easynews.com...
WinHoldemSupport
we want more than this.
we want them to draw attention to the security weakness.
and stop pretending that it does not exist.
just draw attention to it and absolve themselves.
they will be able to say to any customer that ever complains about either
a bot and/or collusion.
"hey you were warned plain and simple and with a dialog box too;
it is just not physically possible to provide 100% security"
there is no shame in this.
there is only honor.
what is so terrible about this?
if paradise,party and stars all added this popup to their software our
management would pull the winholdem team edition tomorrow.
winholdem support.
http://www.pokerbot.com
James Campbell
Too bad! If you don't like their rules don't play at their sites, no one is
forcing you.
Ray - What happened to our heads up match? You talk a good bit but fail to
support your claims. Also I see you finally changed your website like I
told you to, good boy!
James
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:isw6c.11083105$Of.18...@news.easynews.com...
Jen
that is thus: "tell people they COULD be cheated and we'll stop cheating."
I'm sure the online poker rooms are quaking in their boots, terrified that
the international conglomerate known as WinHoldEm Corp, LLC and Partners has
found out their conspiracy to keep ignorant poker players in the dark
regarding the inherent flaws in any internet system. Aw shucks....
Cracka, please. You guys have a full supply of kool-aid there, you know the
kind with the "special sauce?" Do y'all dance with snakes or believe the
mother ship is hovering behind the moon?
You don't have any fucking "management." You seem oblivious to the fact that
most people here make fun of your "company" because it's a SHAM. It's
nothing more than you sitting in your parent's basement or garage (you tell
us, you're the loser after all) trying to use your "l33t" programing
"skillz" to get some poor dope's money.
We laugh when you talk about "management." Or "marketing." Or "departments."
Or "company." You have fucking NONE of this. You have no phone number, so we
can't all call your massive customer support call center and get assistance
and get the chance to actually talk to the almighty WINHOLDEM support dork.
I can't even call you unprofessional. You're not even at level! You're
actually, yes, less than unprofessional. I don't even know what to call the
absolute bottom-out level of suck-ness you occupy.
Jen
:: killing people and burning down trees :: http://douglas.min.net/essay/
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:isw6c.11083105$Of.18...@news.easynews.com...
WinHoldemSupport
WinHoldemSupport
think what you will.
your expectations are unreasonable and unecessary,
when it comes to deciding on using our product.
the things that you are asking for are completely irrelevant.
we do not want customers with your expectations.
(also we do not presume to be persuing a relationship with you in any
other context - regardless of any delusions you have otherwise)
your expectations are stupid, unreasonable and unecessary,
to become a customer of ours.
you dont need to see an entire business/marketing/ipo plan in order to
make a decision on whether or not to use a pokerbot.
also your use of expletives is ... well - unprofessional -
as trump would say "you're fired"
also, we currently market to the end-user the best pokerbot on the planet.
we invite you to show us another comparable product that is publically
available to meet the demand for a bot.
so right now we are looking for the type of person who ...
1) understands the risks involved in online holdem.
2) is not morally conflicted about using a bot.
3) understands that there may be other bots out there
4) understands that there may be colluders out there.
5) is not afraid to learn something new (like how to write a formula set).
6) will not hold us accountable if they screw up their formula set and
lose a bet.
7) understands that our software might have bugs, but that we fix them as
fast as they are discovered.
(http://www.winholdem.net/notices.html)
8) expects good customer service
(but not to the point where they treat us like their 'bitch')
9) reads and understands our license agreement
(http://www.winholdem.net/license_agreement.html)
10) does not care how we choose to treat abusive, stone throwing enemies.
jen, the only relationship we have ever considered persuing with you is
that of one of our customers. our PR campaign (which is what we do right
here) is designed to find people who meet the criteria above. it is also
about repelling people like you who do not meet that criteria.
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
James Campbell
and site. You never emailed me.
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:aEC6c.157590$iA2....@news.easynews.com...
WinHoldemSupport
our oversite, we apologize.
we had a bot seated most of the night expecting you to show up when you
wanted.
there is a bot seated in chair5 right now on poker professional default
table arizona.
you're welcome to play now if you like.
we do not yet have client side game logs in place
(they are being finalized - very nice too html color coded ... very cool)
so the only way to keep score at this point will be just the balances.
winholdem support.
http://www.pokerbot.com
Dave Hitt
>think of us like the truth.com tobacco ads. the ones that get right in
>your face, down and dirty and bold with the tobacco companies and users.
That's the first thing you've got right.
thetruth.com are annoying, lying scumbags.
You pick your friends well.
Dave Hitt
----
Quick Hitts - Rapid Rants From the Hittman
http://www.davehitt.com/blog/index.html
James Campbell
said before name the time & table at Party, PokerStars, UB, or Paradise -
oops guess your account on Paradise was closed :)
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:QkF6c.11115744$Of.18...@news.easynews.com...
WinHoldemSupport
as soon as any one of those sites will allow us to publically seat a bot
without being hassled we'll meet you. you apparently do not understand
this.
there is no way we're going to email somebody as hostile as you are a time
and a place and then show up with an account only to have you snitch an
email to casino support.
let us know when you're really serious about meeting wh face to face.
theres a whbot seated at poker professional right now chair5 table
arizona, go for it. for some stupid reason you think this puts you at
risk. the pp server deals a fair game, causing it to deal an unfair game
has zero value to us. we're interested in sites that can deliver the
mechanics of poker in a safe secure manner. we have zero interest in
rigged poker games.
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
Bryan Black
You make it sound like you have some lab set up with a team running
this venture, but based on your moronic posts you sound like some HS
kid that figured out how to program. How old are you? If your
program is so wonderful why are you selling it? I think all of these
questions can in one way or another be answered by the statement "You
are an idiot".
"Jen" <vodki...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<JVo6c.8583$Ph4....@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com>...
> Once again, I will ask you how you come up with a statement such as:
>
> "we want to be responsive to the market and we are willing to pull the team
> edition and dismantle the channel server if the opcs will admit that the
> vast majority of players do indeed favor solid holdem assistance software."
>
> Where is this "vast majority" you speak of? They must be the most silent
> majority in world history. In another post, I asked if you had market
> numbers, you know, the sort of fundamental market research one would think a
> smart individual would base a business model on? Instead of giving me any
> statistics, numbers, references, you merely when on this narrative of happy
> gazelles and lions romping on the savannah in your lame attempt to draw an
> analogy to online poker. But you DID NOT answer my question in any way
> resembling a worthwhile response about sound, solid, business planning.
>
> I guess I'm bewildered. Did you go down the rabbit hole and invest your time
> and money in a product that is, it would seem, failing to find a niche? I
> would LOVE to see your sales numbers. How many people have actually BOUGHT
> winholdem? How much traffic is the cheating channel....errrr....collusion
> channel seeing?
>
> Sounds like you got caught with your pants down. You can't supply any
> information regarding your market research. You can't tell us who your
> marketing VP is. You can't tell us who your CEO is. You are the only public
> figure that anyone has had contact with in regards to your phantom company
> and you are an admitted "support grunt." A "support grunt" addressing the
> public and getting market feedback? I don't get it! Isn't sales and
> marketing getting a little mad that you're horning in on their job
> responsibilities? Shouldn't you be manning your call center when people use
> your handy 1-800 to get the answers they need regarding winholdem, the
> world's latest "killer app?" Oh wait, you guys don't have a phone number.
> Never mind.
>
> You're merely a shylock with a house-of-cards "company" and a bad
> e.e.cummings complex.
>
> Jen
> :: killing people and burning down trees :: http://douglas.min.net/essay/
>
> "WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
> news:7Sk6c.11035109$Of.18...@news.easynews.com...
> > to all online poker casinos
> > to all online holdem players everywhere:
> >
> > as you know pokerbot.com manufactures and markets a pokerbot called
> > winholdem to the online poker playing community.
> >
> > we want to know if the opcs will discontinue their anti-bot policies if we
> > pull the team edition from the market. (we would refund the $100
> > difference to the existing players).
> >
> > we want to know how many players out there are declining to become
> > winholdem customers because of the team edition.
> >
> > we want to know how many players out there do think a player has the right
> > to use computer assistance in an online holdem game.
> >
> > we want to know how many players out there do not want players using bots.
> >
> > we would also like to hear from the opc's themselves.
> >
> > the opc's claim that nearly 100% of players do not want other players
> > using computer assistance.
> >
> > based on the response we are seeing to our product we do not believe that
> > the opc claims are accurate in the least.
> >
> > however, we do believe that the large majority of players would favor a
> > game where collusion was impossible. (we would too).
> >
> > we want to be responsive to the market and we are willing to pull the team
> > edition and dismantle the channel server if the opcs will admit that the
> > vast majority of players do indeed favor solid holdem assistance software.
> >
> > we await your response.
> >
> > winholdem management.
> > http://www.pokerbot.com
James Campbell
Even though you previously agreed to meet me at a real site, now in order to
demonstrate the power of your bot you want me to go to your own poker site
and expect your site to deal a fair game?
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:xGI6c.11128296$Of.18...@news.easynews.com...
John Forsberg
> Let me get this straight:
> Even though you previously agreed to meet me at a real site, now in order to
> demonstrate the power of your bot you want me to go to your own poker site
> and expect your site to deal a fair game?
You could play over IRC, couldn't you?
WinHoldemSupport
well i was in high school not too long ago but im just a support grunt.
there is more than one support grunt. but we're supposed to try and
act like a single entity. if it looks that way then we are doing our job.
sometimes we have interoffice support turing tests where we send everyone
a support question from a customer or here on rgp and the others here are
supposed to try and match the message to the grunt that wrote it, if the
can obviously tell then we're supposed to make adjustments.
the morning crew is generally nicer than the evening crew. the evening
crew will definitely get in your face. all the support people work in
undisclosed locations. we have an agreement with our employer that our
identities be kept secret. most of us would not have accepted this type
of support job without that protection.
others here do the programming.
sometimes if somebody asks a question here that i cannot answer or
i do not know how to answer then i pass it on to the person that
can answer the question.
when i get an answer back i format the message, usually its already worded
with 'we'. in general if you see the word 'we' it is somebody other than
myself who is answering on behalf of pokerbot.com. if i say i then im
obviously talking about myself. sometimes it can be a programmer saying i
if the question was about winholdem formulas or something technical.
also, to all those who complain about us not using caps, it is part of the
single identity thing and also, it is designed to intentionally challenge
those who will get hung up over not obeying the caps law. the idea is
that if a person has a serious emotional problem with breaking the rules
of capitalization or they worry about what others think about that, then
there is a radically high likelihood that they will have a serious problem
with violating a casino EULA by using a bot. it is truly bizarre, almost
like a crystal ball that can tell you who your customers are.
here is a real big clue as to the kinds of customers we have:
they do not care what others think about them.
they do not worry about what the crowd is doing and how to follow along.
they are not conformists.
they are not morally conflicted about using a bot.
as to your question about wonderful ...
winholdem is wonderful it is a holdem computer that runs these things
called formula sets ... without a formula set winholdem cannot play
holdem. that would be like a computer trying to do something without
software.
we laugh at those who say winholdem is trash ... because they are
complaining about the wrong thing ... what they should be saying is "i
dont like that formula set ... i think this one is much better" ...
winholdem is a holdem playing engine. the formulas are the programs and
each user can change formulas anytime they want in a matter of seconds ...
like changing a CD or DVD. if you dont like a video game you dont say
"omg!! that computer sucks" ... no you say "omg!! that game sucks!" your
computer is blameless it just ran the game. the same is true here for
winholdem, it just runs the formula set you give it. when you license
winholdem you get a simple basic default formula set that has +ev at low
limit real money tables.
the formulas are the real gold, the formulas are the AI that plays holdem,
winholdem is just the computer that runs the formulas.
so a lot of people are bitching because they know that others with poker
knowledge and basic math and logic skill can immediately get started
building their bot and they themselves are either too lazy to do this or
they do not have enough ability in the poker and/or math logic area.
our ideal customer is a young intelligent college punk / holdem player / C
programmer ... these kids can crank out a 100 rule formula in a single
night and they dont have even half the hangups that the rgp crowd here
does.
so bryan, what people in general seemed to be miffed at is the fact that
we didn't release a high dollar +ev formula set for $100.
and our simple answer is, you dont sell a formula set that can average
$100 or more a day for just $100 now do you.
one of our customers called winholdem ... "a holdembot kit" and we think
that is somewhat accurate.
winholem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
James Campbell
If this is true then explain Ray Bornert's role in WinHoldEm?
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:b8K6c.11134356$Of.18...@news.easynews.com...
WinHoldemSupport
show us the message where we agreed to publically seat a bot against you
anywhere but poker professional.
btw when we say PP we mean poker professional
winholdem support.
http://www.pokerbot.com
Paramecium T. Nougat
>
> the morning crew is generally nicer than the evening crew.
Holy Jesus, you've got dissociative identity disorder!
> here is a real big clue as to the kinds of customers we have:
> they do not care what others think about them.
> they do not worry about what the crowd is doing and how to follow along.
> they are not conformists.
> they are not morally conflicted about using a bot.
In other words, sociopaths.
> our ideal customer is a young intelligent college punk / holdem player / C
> programmer ... these kids can crank out a 100 rule formula in a single
> night and they dont have even half the hangups that the rgp crowd here
These kids (believe me because I am one of them) don't need your
software, and many of them don't even run Windows. Your real customers
are people not smart enough to do such things on their own.
/joe
--
The herpes from the Moral Minority discussion forum will go to DramaTech.
Yunis celebrates with the cable line from Krispy Kreme, hisses
stewiev("What the deuce??");, and powers down Trey's tool, and then
mentions stewiev("What the deuce??");. Bill 'the Greates... [tape runs out]
WinHoldemSupport
there is only one way that james could be convinced.
he'd have to get a friend to meet him at a 1v1 table somewhere of his
choosing ... the friend would seat the bot against john and john would
play it, that is the only way he will trust it.
this is all so stupid, contact anyone of the big 3, paradise,party,stars
and ask them to grant a bot account to us (hassle free) and we will show
up.
you would think they would do this, since you a customer are requesting to
play against a known bot. but they refuse to honor this request from
their customers.
winholdem support.
http://www.pokerbot.com
_________________________________________________________________
John Forsberg
> john,
>
> there is only one way that james could be convinced.
> he'd have to get a friend to meet him at a 1v1 table somewhere of his
> choosing ... the friend would seat the bot against john and john would
> play it, that is the only way he will trust it.
I'd say that there are plenty of established IRC-operators that James
would consider neutral, the question is if you would?
John Forsberg
> This is by far the funniest and saddest attempt Ray has tried...
>
> If this is true then explain Ray Bornert's role in WinHoldEm?
I agree, it really is funny, too bad it's so bloody long-winded.
WinHoldemSupport
no interface for it.
winholdem support.
http://www.pokerbot.com
_________________________________________________________________
James Campbell
anywhere but poker professional."
I said...
Anytime you want to match your bot against me name the time & table on
Party, PokerStars, Paradise, or UB and I'm there with bells on.
You said...
You can play against winholdem anytime you want at poker professional.
however there is nothing but risk for us to publically tell you
that we will seat a bot against you at an opc. the net result of that would
just be to get one of our accounts closed.
I said...
PokerProfessional.com is just another link to your own site, registered by
one Bornert II, Ray E. ray.b...@hixoxih.com. If your bot is so
superior you don't have to publically tell me you can tell me privately at
jame...@hotmail.com. We will play 30 hands and will post the
results, for all to see. Now either back up your product or cower in the
dark corner
You said...
we will set this up. not tonight obviously.
everyone has gone home.
how bout thr. night?
winholdem support.
Ray - I really believe Paradise has put you on tilt!
James Campbell
"John Forsberg" <forsbe...@yahoo.se> wrote in message
news:c3ftt0$abb$1...@news.island.liu.se...
Dave Hitt
<jame...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Let me get this straight:
>Even though you previously agreed to meet me at a real site, now in order to
>demonstrate the power of your bot you want me to go to your own poker site
>and expect your site to deal a fair game?
It just gets funnier and funnier, doesn't it?
As to their paranoia, why would anyone report them if they believed
they could beat the bot? Google: Goose, golden egg.
John Forsberg
> john,
>
> no interface for it.
>
> winholdem support.
> http://www.pokerbot.com
>
> On Mar 19 2004 5:57PM, John Forsberg wrote:
I'm pretty sure there is a standard interface for bots in irc. Take a
look at the site of the developers of Poki Poker, I think they have that
kind of info. Otherwise google should see you through. At any rate there
shouldn't be any need for screen scraping or anything bothersome like that.
John Forsberg
Here's the specific link:
http://games.cs.ualberta.ca/webgames/poker/bots.html
Bryan Black
one strange company you are working for!
"Paramecium T. Nougat" <r...@moralminority.org> wrote in message news:<c3frek$je3$2...@news-int2.gatech.edu>...