pokerbot.com - winholdem - user warning
WinHoldemSupport
it seems Party Poker and Paradise Poker have both decided to yet again
invade your rights and have implemented a new detection method which seems
to reside on the client (your pc). we have had several customers over the
past few hours complaining that their Party and Paradise Poker accounts
have been suspended and funds seized. we apologize for the inconvenience
but as it is out of our control what an OPC does with your funds or
install on the client we can not be held responsible for their actions.
we hope to have a fix available soon.
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com
Wm. Bradley
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3v3Ic.458448$ef4....@news.easynews.com...
> everyone -
>
> it seems Party Poker and Paradise Poker have both decided to yet again
> invade your rights and have implemented a new detection method which seems
> to reside on the client (your pc). we have had several customers over the
> past few hours complaining that their Party and Paradise Poker accounts
> have been suspended and funds seized. we apologize for the inconvenience
Is that what it is? An inconvenience...lol?
> but as it is out of our control what an OPC does with your funds or
> install on the client we can not be held responsible for their actions.
Are you responsible your actions (i.e. marketing a cheating device)?
> we hope to have a fix available soon.
I advise you in the very strongest terms to stop spamming this NG with your
cheating software.
Bryan S. Slick
[Sun, 11 Jul 2004 04:38:35 GMT]
:everyone -
:
:it seems Party Poker and Paradise Poker have both decided to yet again
:invade your rights and have implemented a new detection method which seems
:to reside on the client (your pc). we have had several customers over the
:past few hours complaining that their Party and Paradise Poker accounts
:have been suspended and funds seized. we apologize for the inconvenience
:but as it is out of our control what an OPC does with your funds or
:install on the client we can not be held responsible for their actions.
:we hope to have a fix available soon.
On behalf of the HONEST players out there, may I just say..
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
WOOT! GO PARADISE! GO PARTY!
Thanks for telling us all this.. I mailed both sites THANKING them for
rooting out the SCUMBAG CHEATERS and taking their money away.
--
Bryan S. Slick, usenet at slick-family dot net
"To those who have fought for it,
freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
Bryan S. Slick
[Sun, 11 Jul 2004 04:47:49 GMT]
:> we hope to have a fix available soon.
:
:I advise you in the very strongest terms to stop spamming this NG with your
:cheating software.
Probably a good idea.. you never know if a hacker, even a retired
hacker, is reading and getting very very annoyed.
ruylopez
Enough with your stupid rationalizations Ray. Using your program is
against the rules. And the vast, vast majority of us players like the
rules the way they are. Stop ripping people off. Your a worthless
salesman.
CJ Wheelock
considered cheating?
WinHoldemSupport
some poser here posting as an official winholdem rep.
cant stop them from doing it.
they cant stop us from pointing out their bluff.
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
WinHoldemSupport
you just responded to a bogus post.
make sure you look at the email address of the poster
if it doesn't say '@winholdem.net'
then it isn't us.
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
_________________________________________________________________
WinHoldemSupport
you responded to a bogus post.
our email address is the winholdem.net domain not yahoo.
you got all excited over nothing.
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
_________________________________________________________________
Bryan S. Slick
[Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:53:21 GMT]
:bryan,
:
:you responded to a bogus post.
:our email address is the winholdem.net domain not yahoo.
:you got all excited over nothing.
Hrm, well.. various people bitching and moaning on here as well as other
locales seem to indicate that you're a liar.
Nice try, though, thief.
C06777
>I don't know anything about winholdem. Whats does it do, and why is it
>considered cheating?
>
This spamming guy Ray made it up.
Software you install and for which you need a graduate degree to figure out how
to program properly.
You run it on your computer and it plays Texas Hold 'Em for you. It's a bot
and therefore you can keep it running 24/7.
A few problems with it, however. The online poker sites have developed
detection software. When they find out you are running WinHoldEm on your
computer, it locks you out of the site. Freezes your account. Confiscates
your funds.
There may even be some sort of code embedded within the program which reveals
your hole cards back to Ray.
There's been a lot of discussion in this newsgroup about the whle deal. Search
the archives if you want to do several hours' worth of reading about it.
88Countach
>
>everyone -
>
>it seems Party Poker and Paradise Poker have both decided to yet again
>invade your rights and have implemented a new detection method which seems
>to reside on the client (your pc). we have had several customers over the
>past few hours complaining that their Party and Paradise Poker accounts
>have been suspended and funds seized. we apologize for the inconvenience
>but as it is out of our control what an OPC does with your funds or
>install on the client we can not be held responsible for their actions.
>we hope to have a fix available soon.
Geez, your software doesn't even work that well. Why not give it up
already?
WinHoldemSupport
pfft!
is that supposed to frighten me!?
I''m the best hacker/cracker in the world.
look at my software and website for an
example of my skills.
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
WinHoldemSupport
you got suckered by a cheap spam trick being done by a few people here
where they post as us from an anonymous account on yahoo or hotmail etc.
our email domain is 'winholdem.net'
and as to your 'liar' comment, please provide a single instance where we
have done this.
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
_________________________________________________________________
James Campbell
You have said you are just one of many support techs that work along side
numerous developers when in reality your whole organization is made up of
one person name Ray Edward Bornert who lives at 4143 Red Laurel Way
Snellville, GA 30039. Your personal email is ray.b...@hixoxih.com.
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:UsbIc.19505541$Of.32...@news.easynews.com...
ematz
I'm sorry for these cheaters too.
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3v3Ic.458448$ef4....@news.easynews.com...
WinHoldemSupport
i am a support grunt.
the person you are referring to is the owner.
so are you saying you want me to pretend that im him when im not?
im not allowed to do that.
there is more than one support person here.
we do not use our first names.
we post as winholdem support.
from time to time you will see posts on here from winholdem management -
the source of which is either him or one of the managing developers.
if there is a post that we need to respond to but we dont have all the
answers then we forward that to the people here who can provide an answer.
we dont represent any one single person.
we represent a product.
like it or not that is the way it is.
we have been open and honest and truthful about winholdem and online
holdem in general.
why dont you take the time to enlighten everyone here about why you hate
us so much? what is it about winholdem that just pisses you off so badly
james? are you jealous? do you wish you'd produced this product first or
differently? or do you just hate people that do unique things? or do you
hate people that publically stand behind their hard work? whatever the
reason, there is no doubt that something about this product just provokes
something deep within you. so what exactly is your real problem man?
tell us how you feel man ... go ahead ... purge ... we can take it ...
we're here to help. we're not your enemy.
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
James Campbell
You hide post using WinHoldemSupport anon...@winholdem.net and then brag
that you publically stand behind your hard work? That is funny. Ray, I do
not hate you or your product but I will state the facts everytime you post
and the facts are people using your software had their accounts closed.
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:tqeIc.19515918$Of.32...@news.easynews.com...
Raider Fan
> james,
>
> i am a support grunt.
> the person you are referring to is the owner.
> so are you saying you want me to pretend that im him when im not?
> im not allowed to do that.
>
> there is more than one support person here.
> we do not use our first names.
> we post as winholdem support.
> from time to time you will see posts on here from winholdem management -
> the source of which is either him or one of the managing developers.
> if there is a post that we need to respond to but we dont have all the
> answers then we forward that to the people here who can provide an answer.
Yes, you are clearly a very large enterprise. Congratulations on your
success. There are millions of people that aspire to accomplish what you
have managed to do. Forget ethics, make a buck. Back in the day, I
noticed that many people could support their pot smoking by buying in
volume. They'd sell some and smoke the rest off their profits. You are
even better. You get suckers to pay for your worthless product and then
get the benefit of seeing their hole cards when they sit at a table.
Kudos to you!
WinHoldemSupport
i personally cannot stop you from using whatever name you want to refer to
me (us).
i am not even allowed to give you my initials.
we have suggested that you refer to the support people as (whs).
we would prefer this; you obviously cannot be forced to comply.
we are in complete agreement that the opc's have indeed suspended accounts
of winholdem users. we have not once disagreed with this. we only take
issue with statements like this when the statement also implies that the
opc confiscated the account funds. there is a big big difference between
barring a player and returning their funds vs. closing an account and
conscripting the entire balance.
we obviously would prefer that you were disgruntled with the opc behavior
instead of ridiculing us for providing a product that has the ability to
help players win money (and im not talking about the team edition here - i
am referring to the pro edition and the speed edition).
we have not once attempted to assert that a winholdem user did not incur
risk - not once. our license agreement, in fact, makes full disclosure of
the risks involved. our home page has notices posted clearly to inform
potential users about the risks.
having said this, we take issue with any statement that overstates the
risk involved. here are the facts:
1) right now any winholdem user can play hassle free at either stars or
party using a single computer.
2) right now any winholdem user can play hassle free at paradise if they
are willing to use two computers via winpp.
if you are a person that views computer assistance as not very valuable
then pretty much nothing will convince you to use assistance software.
however, if you are a person who understands how well computers play games
then you are probably willing to use computer assistance even if you have
to pay for it, even if you have to jump through some hoops to avoid
detection and even if you risk getting your account closed.
we also take issue with the fact that it seems like you have the view that
you and you alone are enlightening the world as to the reality of the
situation. and my point is that you haven't reported any fact that we did
not report first.
so to sum up, if anybody makes statements about the risks of using
winholdem, then we want those statements to accurate;
we do not want the risk to be understated;
we do not want the risk to be overstated;
regards,
whs,
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
WinHoldemSupport
you are a liar.
winholdem does not share card info with anyone other than the end-user.
if the end-user has the team edition, they can share their card info with
a private channel of their choosing (privately selected 10 digit number).
they can then tell a friend the channel number and if that friend also has
the team edition then they can connect to the private channel and share
cards; abolutely nobody other than these two people see the card info.
now just so we're perfectly clear here we invite you to do the following
(put up or shutup):
1) find an independent third party network specialist to review winholdem
security.
2) have them send a request to us to for independent verification.
3) we will either provide the key to them under non-disclosure or we will
provide a way to disable the encryption such that they can examine every
single byte that travels to/from the channel server.
4) they can download/install in the normal way using the exact executable
that everybody else is using; they can do this at a time and place of
their choosing such that we cannot be accused of mucking with their
installation.
if he can prove that we are stealing card info from end-users, we will
give you ten thousand in cash (usd). i repeat - $10k (usd).
he must prove the following:
1) that sensitive information other than the end-user license key and
end-user card info travels to the channel server.
we fully admit that he will be able to prove that the license key travels
there and that the end-users card info travels there (if the end-user has
decided to publish that info to the channel)
phase 2
after he proves that only the product key and the user card info travels
to the channel server we propose the following:
your analyst will get a team of two people to sit and share at the same
table somewhere online. the analyst will then tell you the channel number
they chose such that you can see the card info of the two players. you
will not be told at which opc they are playing nor will you be told the
table where they are playing nor will you be told anything about what kind
of game they are playing; all you will know is that they will be playing
somewhere online at one of the winholdem supported sites.
the players will play for exactly one hour; if you can find them and sit
and play and win a river pot from one of them in less than 1 hour we will
give you $10k; if you cannot then you have to give us $10k.
put up or shutup little girl.
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
James Campbell
version you present...
http://express.dnbsearch.com/compInfo.asp?callback=yes&source=lookup&compName=HIXOXIH+SOFTWARE&key=135877533&DunsCountry=US&foldertype=10&selection=credrep
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:tqeIc.19515918$Of.32...@news.easynews.com...
wamplerr
"i am a support grunt."
On the other hand, you say:
"I''m the best hacker/cracker in the world."
"why dont you take the time to enlighten everyone here about why you
hate us so much? what is it about winholdem that just pisses you off so
badly james? are you jealous? do you wish you'd produced this product
first or differently? or do you just hate people that do unique things?
or do you hate people that publically stand behind their hard work?
whatever the reason, there is no doubt that something about this product
just provokes
something deep within you. so what exactly is your real problem man?
tell us how you feel man ... go ahead ... purge ... we can take it ...
we're here to help. we're not your enemy."
I can enlighten you. This is very sad...you are like a kid in high
school who cheats on every test, gets straight A's, and then thinks he's
the smartest kid on earth. I don't doubt that you're doing unique
things, and that you've worked hard to do them. But you still don't
know why everyone here hates you? It's because many of us put a lot of
our own hard work into learning to beat poker. Due to the nature of
poker, the players are the first line of the defense in making sure the
games are straight. Online, if nobody ever reports collusion or all-in
abuse, nothing would ever get done about it. So don't take it 100%
personally that people here hate you. If you honestly don't know what
it is about winholdem that "pisses us off" then like I said, it is very
sad.
I don't know which is worse...either you know this is cheating and
ignore any moral sense of obligation to stop it, or you somehow can
rationalize it to yourself and still think you are the "smartest kid in
high school". Either way, may God have mercy on your soul(s)...
* Posted via RGP ACCESS at http://www.liveactionpoker.com
* Free $30 for Pacific Poker at http://www.liveactionpoker.com/free30
James Campbell
> of winholdem users. we have not once disagreed with this. we only take
> issue with statements like this when the statement also implies that the
> opc confiscated the account funds. there is a big big difference between
> barring a player and returning their funds vs. closing an account and
> conscripting the entire balance.
You can't show proof that their funds weren't confiscated just as I can't
show proof they were. Since you continue to hide the fact that your real
identity then I am inclined to lean away from the version you present.
> we obviously would prefer that you were disgruntled with the opc behavior
> instead of ridiculing us for providing a product that has the ability to
> help players win money (and im not talking about the team edition here - i
> am referring to the pro edition and the speed edition).
Hmmm $2 an hour playing $3/$6 is not much help is it?
> 1) right now any winholdem user can play hassle free at either stars or
> party using a single computer.
Hassle free at Stars? You can't even guarantee your program can read the
Poker Stars screen.
Hassle free at Party Poker? Anyone with a screen that has WinHoldem in the
title bar has their client closed after 2 hands and is put on a watch list.
Again this is a poor attempt by you to hide the truth.
> if you are a person that views computer assistance as not very valuable
> then pretty much nothing will convince you to use assistance software.
I view computer assistance as valuable, I do not view computers being used
in place of a player as ethical and have stated so. Not because your bot
has proven to be something one should worry about, $2 an hour playing $3/$6
is nothing to be afraid of.
> however, if you are a person who understands how well computers play games
> then you are probably willing to use computer assistance even if you have
> to pay for it, even if you have to jump through some hoops to avoid
> detection and even if you risk getting your account closed.
If you think your Poker Bot is good, sit it down at a table with me. You
name the time and table at Poker Stars, Party Poker, or Paradise Poker and I
will be there with bells on.
> we also take issue with the fact that it seems like you have the view that
> you and you alone are enlightening the world as to the reality of the
> situation. and my point is that you haven't reported any fact that we did
> not report first.
When have any of your announcements included risks? or your real identity?
James Campbell
(still man enough to use my real name)
WinHoldemSupport
> > we are in complete agreement that the opc's have indeed suspended accounts
> > of winholdem users. we have not once disagreed with this. we only take
> > issue with statements like this when the statement also implies that the
> > opc confiscated the account funds. there is a big big difference between
> > barring a player and returning their funds vs. closing an account and
> > conscripting the entire balance.
>
> You can't show proof that their funds weren't confiscated just as I can't
> show proof they were. Since you continue to hide the fact that your real
> identity then I am inclined to lean away from the version you present.
>
we cannot report information that we do not have and neither can you.
> > we obviously would prefer that you were disgruntled with the opc behavior
> > instead of ridiculing us for providing a product that has the ability to
> > help players win money (and im not talking about the team edition here - i
> > am referring to the pro edition and the speed edition).
>
> Hmmm $2 an hour playing $3/$6 is not much help is it?
>
so are you saying that the end-user made more or less than this before
using winholdem?
> > 1) right now any winholdem user can play hassle free at either stars or
> > party using a single computer.
>
> Hassle free at Stars? You can't even guarantee your program can read the
> Poker Stars screen.
james, have you actually tried using winholdem at pokerstars?
because we have/do regularly (it works just fine).
you're like this onlooker afraid to get in the pool or the ocean because
of the temperature or the possibility of sharkes.
> Hassle free at Party Poker? Anyone with a screen that has WinHoldem in the
> title bar has their client closed after 2 hands and is put on a watch list.
> Again this is a poor attempt by you to hide the truth.
>
james, james, james, look at our home page ... go look at the note in our
home page (front and center) what more do you want ... also, in case you
didnt know, winholdem itself does not have the text 'winholdem' in the
title bar any longer so what exactly is your point here dude???? you dont
have the facts and you claim that you do. end-users can still change the
title bar if they want to but they dont have to anymore.
> > if you are a person that views computer assistance as not very valuable
> > then pretty much nothing will convince you to use assistance software.
>
> I view computer assistance as valuable, I do not view computers being used
> in place of a player as ethical and have stated so. Not because your bot
> has proven to be something one should worry about, $2 an hour playing $3/$6
> is nothing to be afraid of.
>
wonderful. fine. i personally think it is wrong for an opc to use bots
but i dont think it is wrong for them to employ table shills as long as
the shills have no additional advantage above a normal player. i think it
is personally just fine for any player to use computer assistance and even
an auto-player; an auto-player is just a convenience - the player still
had to tell the bot what to do so what is the problem here.
> > however, if you are a person who understands how well computers play games
> > then you are probably willing to use computer assistance even if you have
> > to pay for it, even if you have to jump through some hoops to avoid
> > detection and even if you risk getting your account closed.
>
> If you think your Poker Bot is good, sit it down at a table with me. You
> name the time and table at Poker Stars, Party Poker, or Paradise Poker and I
> will be there with bells on.
>
james, we'be been through this over and over again. there is no way for
anybody to publically accept that challenge without jeopardizing their
account; (not that you would squeal or anything, although based on your
public statements here i certainly believe that is a possibility; my point
is that a winholdem user cannot trust you to play against them at an open
table without sending an email to the host casino revealing their
identity) ... why do you keep bringing this up? if you really want to
play against winholdem you can easily do it on your own without our help;
we suggest you do that.
> > we also take issue with the fact that it seems like you have the view that
> > you and you alone are enlightening the world as to the reality of the
> > situation. and my point is that you haven't reported any fact that we did
> > not report first.
>
> When have any of your announcements included risks? or your real identity?
>
so you're saying you want us to iterate our entire license agreement and
disclosure each and every time we post?
> James Campbell
> (still man enough to use my real name)
you know when i first started working here i didnt see the sense of not
being allowed to at least use my first name or initials; i was told that
it was for my protection because it would provide a psychological shield;
when i post here i am representing a product (for better or worse) and
that has zero to do with me personally; it is just my job. and i have to
admit that they were right; it is kind of like wall that protects me from
taking things personally. when people get pissed they want to throw stones
at another human and the experience is better when there is a personal
name to slander and hate and crucify.
nobody made you use your real name here james. you chose to do that. we
choose not to. but then again you dont have a job that requires you to
meet the public head on even when some of that public has malice toward
you.
have you actually tried winholdem?
have you actaully downloaded it and looked under the hood?
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
WinHoldemSupport
On Jul 11 2004 7:58PM, wamplerr wrote:
> On one hand, you say:
> "i am a support grunt."
>
yes this is true. i call myself a grunt ... my employer doesnt.
> On the other hand, you say:
> "I''m the best hacker/cracker in the world."
>
never said this not once.
>
> "why dont you take the time to enlighten everyone here about why you
> hate us so much? what is it about winholdem that just pisses you off so
> badly james? are you jealous? do you wish you'd produced this product
> first or differently? or do you just hate people that do unique things?
> or do you hate people that publically stand behind their hard work?
> whatever the reason, there is no doubt that something about this product
> just provokes
> something deep within you. so what exactly is your real problem man?
> tell us how you feel man ... go ahead ... purge ... we can take it ...
> we're here to help. we're not your enemy."
>
<snip highly inaccurate fantasy>
> But you still don't know why everyone here hates you?
of course we do. never ever ever have we misunderstood this.
we assert that the basis of the malice is no longer logical in an internet
environment.
> It's because many of us put a lot of our own hard work into learning to beat
poker.
understood. however, the online environment changes things dramatically
regardless of whether or not you choose to accept this fact. we too have
put in a lot of hard work adapting to the new environment. you are
wasting time and energy trying to control something beyond your reach.
> Due to the nature of poker, the players are the first line of the defense in
making sure the games are straight. Online, if nobody ever reports collusion
or all-in abuse, nothing would ever get done about it.
understood. however, you assume that you have the ability to detect online
collusion and what we have been saying is that you absolutely do not have
this ability given team players that know what they are doing. we agree
that its possible to catch reckless players.
> So don't take it 100% personally that people here hate you.
i dont take it personally. but i take issue with your logic and your
adaptive skills. you are mad at something beyond your control yet you
refuse to adapt to the new environment. in darwinian terms you are
risking extinction. the prudent online players are adapting (with
computer assistance and cardsharing both of which offer advantages that
outweigh the risks); and there is no crime in adapting to a new
environment; we have said over and over again we gladly welcome the
classic form of holdem in an online environment as long as you can
guarantee (100%) that nobody can collude against us while we're playing.
if you cannot provide this guarantee (and you cannot possibly do this)
then i am going to adapt my behavior to the new environment. you have the
same choice. adapt or dont adapt. and if there is a business in helping
players adapt then so be it. things change man.
> If you honestly don't know what it is about winholdem that "pisses us off"
then like I said, it is very sad.
>
as said above, we certainly understand your feelings. however, they are
no longer logical in an internet environment; now why dont you
demonstrate some logic here and honestly consider the possibility that you
are just plain wrong. because that is exactly what we are doing, willing
to admit that we are wrong (however winholdem sales indicate that we are
right).
> I don't know which is worse...either you know this is cheating and
> ignore any moral sense of obligation to stop it, or you somehow can
> rationalize it to yourself
it is wrong for a poker casino to promote the idea that they can protect a
player from online card sharing. this in our view is radically unethical
and very near criminal. most players just magically assume that their
host casino has some black box that can detect all forms of cardsharing -
this is absolutely false. no doubt, such a box would have value, but then
again so would a fountain of youth. the most healthy thing that could
happen to online holdem is for the opcs to admit that they cannot
guarantee that a player will not be subjected to players that are
cardsharing and to simply focus on dealing an honest game and incorporate
all forms of cardsharing directly into the definition of online holdem (it
simply goes with the territory).
the most ethical thing to do is to get everybody playing the same game.
and it is logical to select a game that can be policed properly. classic
holdem on the internet cannot be properly policed ever - therefore it
should not be played on the internet. and you are 100% deluded if you
believe it can be policed in an internet environment. and you are wrong
to tell other players that it can be.
we dont fault you for wanting to play classic holdem. we dont fault you
for wanting to play it online. we dont fault you for wanting others to do
the same and we dont fault you for telling others what you want; however,
we do fault you if you publically assert that the game can be policed
properly. and the burden of proof is squarely on you here.
you either provide proof that it can be policed or you provide an honest
answer as to what a shrewd player should do knowing that a collusion free
/ bot free / computer assistance free zone does not exist online.
you also have the option to shutup.
put up or shut up dude.
the burden is on you.
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
James Campbell
> > > we are in complete agreement that the opc's have indeed suspended
accounts
> > > of winholdem users. we have not once disagreed with this. we only
take
> > > issue with statements like this when the statement also implies that
the
> > > opc confiscated the account funds. there is a big big difference
between
> > > barring a player and returning their funds vs. closing an account and
> > > conscripting the entire balance.
> >
> > You can't show proof that their funds weren't confiscated just as I
can't
> > show proof they were. Since you continue to hide the fact that your
real
> > identity then I am inclined to lean away from the version you present.
> >
> we cannot report information that we do not have and neither can you.
So here are the facts. A) Players using your product have had their
accounts closed. B) You do not know if they have had their funds
confiscated.
> > > we obviously would prefer that you were disgruntled with the opc
behavior
> > > instead of ridiculing us for providing a product that has the ability
to
> > > help players win money (and im not talking about the team edition
here - i
> > > am referring to the pro edition and the speed edition).
> >
> > Hmmm $2 an hour playing $3/$6 is not much help is it?
> >
> so are you saying that the end-user made more or less than this before
> using winholdem?
I am saying that making $2 an hour while risking my entire bankroll is not a
+EV proposition.
> > > 1) right now any winholdem user can play hassle free at either stars
or
> > > party using a single computer.
> >
> > Hassle free at Stars? You can't even guarantee your program can read
the
> > Poker Stars screen.
> james, have you actually tried using winholdem at pokerstars?
> because we have/do regularly (it works just fine).
If you use it regularly on Pokerstars why does your site read...
"Poker Stars is very fussy about window focus in their poker client. You may
need to make sure that the poker stars poker client window is in focus (blue
title bar) in order to get the winholdem autoplayer to begin. Once the
autoplayer begins you should be fine."
I have taken it upon myself to make sure your potential customers understand
the difference between "Works with PokerStars" and "At PokerStars you should
be fine".
> you're like this onlooker afraid to get in the pool or the ocean because
> of the temperature or the possibility of sharkes.
>
> > Hassle free at Party Poker? Anyone with a screen that has WinHoldem in
the
> > title bar has their client closed after 2 hands and is put on a watch
list.
> > Again this is a poor attempt by you to hide the truth.
> >
> james, james, james, look at our home page ... go look at the note in our
> home page (front and center) what more do you want ... also, in case you
> didnt know, winholdem itself does not have the text 'winholdem' in the
> title bar any longer so what exactly is your point here dude???? you dont
> have the facts and you claim that you do. end-users can still change the
> title bar if they want to but they dont have to anymore.
So now you are saying "Hassle free if ....", again I am doing a customer
service by pointing out your product is flawed out of the box.
> > > we also take issue with the fact that it seems like you have the view
that
> > > you and you alone are enlightening the world as to the reality of the
> > > situation. and my point is that you haven't reported any fact that we
did
> > > not report first.
> >
> > When have any of your announcements included risks? or your real
identity?
> >
> so you're saying you want us to iterate our entire license agreement and
> disclosure each and every time we post?
If you don't I will :) Actually even if you do I will. You are free to
post to this newsgroup and I am free to post after each and every one of
your posts the consequences of using your product. I will also continue to
state that the only person who has any ties to WinHoldem is Ray Bornett.
Looking at a D&B report of Hixoxih Software it shows 0 employees so unless
you are paying your people under the table you have 0 warm bodies on the
payroll. Until you can provide alternative proof of the size of your
organization I will make the determination to refer to these posts as Ray
Bornett being ashamed of his product to the point he must assume an alter
ego.
James Campbell
wamplerr
and it is logical to select a game that can be policed properly. classic
holdem on the internet cannot be properly policed ever - therefore it
should not be played on the internet. and you are 100% deluded if you
believe it can be policed in an internet environment. and you are wrong
to tell other players that it can be."
I wouldn't tell a player that internet poker is 100% cheater free, but I
do think what cheating does go on can be overcome by not playing insane
stakes and by being vigilant.
"you either provide proof that it can be policed or you provide an
honest answer as to what a shrewd player should do knowing that a
collusion free/ bot free / computer assistance free zone does not
exist online."
You're asking me for logic? You are saying that you know it's wrong,
but since you can't rid online poker of cheating, it's best to make it
100 times worse?
I play fair, and I beat the games. I will not resort to cheating.
You think it's ok to cheat since some internet players do.
We will always disagree on that point on that point as a matter of
ethics.
I just don't understand you coming on and asking "why people hate
winhold'em" and "what it is that pisses them off."
It's obviously because most people are not willing to make the moral
compromises you and the people who buy this program have made.
WinHoldemSupport
> winholdem support wrote:
"
> the most ethical thing to do is to get everybody playing the same game.
> and it is logical to select a game that can be policed properly. classic
> holdem on the internet cannot be properly policed ever - therefore it
> should not be played on the internet. and you are 100% deluded if you
> believe it can be policed in an internet environment. and you are wrong
> to tell other players that it can be."
"
>
>
> I wouldn't tell a player that internet poker is 100% cheater free, but I
> do think what cheating does go on can be overcome by not playing insane
> stakes and by being vigilant.
>
once again you are asserting that you can wipe out all forms of
cardsharing in an online environment.
>
> "you either provide proof that it can be policed or you provide an
> honest answer as to what a shrewd player should do knowing that a
> collusion free/ bot free / computer assistance free zone does not
> exist online."
>
> You're asking me for logic? You are saying that you know it's wrong,
> but since you can't rid online poker of cheating, it's best to make it
> 100 times worse?
i didn't say that at all. i am asking everyone to pull their head out of
the sand. dont tell new players that cardsharing doesnt exist. be
honest. tell them straight up that it does exist and that it is impossible
to prevent. and if you are an ethical person then you will have no problem
if that new player declines to play poker online. however, i suspect that
many players that read rgp do already know this yet decline to bring
attention to it because they do not want to discourage the new fish from
becoming food for any reason. it is these so called online "pro" players
that we take issue with. they downplay the realities of online poker and
in so doing they do harm to new players coming into the game.
> I play fair, and I beat the games. I will not resort to cheating.
>
here is an example of an honest statement on your part:
"it is impossible to prevent cardsharing in an online environment; i
personally choose to play because i can still beat the current game; and i
choose not to cardshare because that is the way i want the game to be
played;"
> You think it's ok to cheat since some internet players do.
>
wrong. it is absolutely not cheating in an online environment. it is
simply an alternate way to play that has more reward than risk ... period.
if you really want to close the hole then you need to provide a way to
police the game such that it is impossible to cardshare online. if you
will not or cannot do this then your only basis for asking a player to
decline to use computer assistance and/or cardshare is because you have
better chances if they play the way you want them to.
i congratulate you if you can beat the game (consistently) without
computer assistance and without cardsharing; you probably spent a lot of
time and effort getting to where you are now and as such you want to enjoy
the fruits of your labor (which means you want to feed on the new fish and
the dumb fish the same way the sharks fed on you when you first started
playing) ... tell me if im wrong.
im not mad at you; i dont fault you in anyway; however there is a good
business in helping poker players skip the entire
pay-my-dues-by-being-fish-food-phase ... my point is that a new player
using winholdem with a strong formula set has a much better chance of not
losing to a player as good as you are and in fact his ev may in fact be
better than yours.
what i am telling you (and everyone here) is that eventually your current
+ev is going to dry up (because of high quality computer assistance); if
you dont see this or cant see this then you are beyond help. so what are
you going to do if you can no longer beat the game (because if you dont do
something to get ahead of those using computer assistance your days of
beating the game are numbered). please take this as shrewd observation on
my part. this isnt a mean spirited attempt on my part to twist the
proverbial knife; i am simply stating things as i see them.
if everyone on the net eventually resorts to some form of computer
assistance and that assistance is state of the art then nobody will be
able to beat a raked game. at this point, the only way to get ahead of
strong software will be to learn how to cardshare and learn how to do it
better than anybody else.
right now there is precious little information about how to play high
quality team poker ... mostly because nobody wants to discuss it ...
because the very subject itself is taboo. we say screw the taboo ... its
time to learn how to do it and learn to do it well. and its time to start
discussing the subject openly instead of ranting and crying like children.
things change.
> We will always disagree on that point on that point as a matter of
> ethics.
>
no. you are wrong. it is no longer a matter of ethics ... not on the
internet ... not in an environment where you cannot possibly police the
actions of players you cannot see. you can shout ethics all day long but
it is meaningless because there is no way to enforce the ethics you are
espousing therefore your ethics are worthless and cannot protect the
innocent ... as we've said before ... the gazelle thinks that it is
terribly unethical of the lion to eat him ... the lion simply does not
care. what i am telling you is that if you do not adapt you are
eventually going to get eaten and there is nothing you can do to stop this
from happening.
> I just don't understand you coming on and asking "why people hate
> winhold'em" and "what it is that pisses them off."
>
no no. we completely understand why. we just want people to actually type
the words and then logically think about what they are saying ... similar
to what you did.
we dont understand why you would choose to be a gazelle when you could be
a lion. (i of course understand that right now you are beating the game
and as such, for the purposes of this analogy, you yourself are a lion ...
what are you going to do when there are no more gazelles and lions are now
being eaten by machines)
i dont understand why anybody would not want to live at the top of the
food chain. please explain this to me.
> It's obviously because most people are not willing to make the moral
> compromises you and the people who buy this program have made.
>
just for the record, will you please state which of the 4 winholdem
editions you feel are moral compromises ... the reason i ask is because i
dont think you would assert this about all 4.
http://www.winholdem.net/wh_pricing.php
thanks,
James Campbell
lying.
Now would you like to retract your statement that you aren't Ray? Or would
you like to explain how Hixoxih, parent company of Winholdem, shows 0
employees yet you claim you are just one of many?
"James Campbell" <jame...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:pwjIc.58569$%_6.41857@attbi_s01...
Wm. Bradley
> wrong. it is absolutely not cheating in an online environment. it is
> simply an alternate way to play that has more reward than risk ... period.
Last chance pal.
wamplerr
"I wouldn't tell a player that internet poker is 100% cheater free, but
I do think what cheating does go on can be overcome by not playing
insane
stakes and by being vigilant."
You said:
"once again you are asserting that you can wipe out all forms of
cardsharing in an online environment."
I did not say that. I said a good player can still win despite the
current amount of cheating that goes on.
You said:
"i didn't say that at all. i am asking everyone to pull their head out
of the sand. dont tell new players that cardsharing doesnt exist. be
honest. tell them straight up that it does exist and that it is
impossible to prevent."
I don't tell new players this. I tell them the games are still beatable
at the current level of cheating.
You said:
"wrong. it is absolutely not cheating in an online environment. it is
simply an alternate way to play that has more reward than risk ...
period."
Let me ask this. Why are online sites freezing the accounts of players
when they detect winhold'em. Don't the sites know that people are
sharing cards over IM, and the unsophisticated players can only overcome
this by using your software?
You said:
"im not mad at you; i dont fault you in anyway; however there is a good
business in helping poker players skip the entire
pay-my-dues-by-being-fish-food-phase ... my point is that a new player
using winholdem with a strong formula set has a much better chance of
not losing to a player as good as you are and in fact his ev may in fact
be better than yours."
I'm so glad you aren't mad at me for choosing not to cheat. You think
you deserve a reward for helping new players out against sharks like me?
Here's another question. How do most people find out about your
program? I haven't seen any advertisements. I only see the buzz on
RGP. What about the thousands of "new" players showing up on sites that
have never heard of winhold'em. Don't the majority of the alleged
winnings that winhold'em players 'earn' come from them? Those are the
people getting hurt.
You said:
"what i am telling you (and everyone here) is that eventually your
current +ev is going to dry up (because of high quality computer
assistance);"
And I'm telling you that this is your fault. You seem to have some kind
of immunity from this fact.
You said:
"no. you are wrong. it is no longer a matter of ethics ... not on the
internet ... not in an environment where you cannot possibly police the
actions of players you cannot see. you can shout ethics all day long but
it is meaningless because there is no way to enforce the ethics you are
espousing therefore your ethics are worthless and cannot protect the
innocent"
So if I want to beat my wife and feel no ethical problem with it, all I
need to do is get on a boat, and row 3 miles into international waters,
where policing such a thing is impossible? As long as other people rob
banks, it makes it ok for me to rob banks. In fact, it is more
neccessary that I rob a bank to keep up with everyone else's wealth.
And if you can't get caught, there is nothing wrong with committing the
crime? (For simplicity you can ignore the fact that many of your
customers HAVE been caught).
Anyone with a sense of moral obligation would not do what you're doing.
John S. Price
is nothing that can be done to stop it is telling the truth.
"Wm. Bradley" <w...@bogus.ca> wrote in message
news:OtmIc.74703$WB5.62982@pd7tw2no...
WinHoldemSupport
it is understandable that you want info.
however, you're not going to get it other than what is publically
available on the net. you are simply not entitled to know.
you are also assuming too much about the information you have found.
we are not a public company and as such we have no reporting
responsibilities to you or any other person here on rgp.
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
_________________________________________________________________
James Campbell
available to anyone.
Nice try.
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:LhnIc.534472$ef4....@news.easynews.com...
James Campbell
called my friend, and your 72o isn't going to cut it :)
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:LhnIc.534472$ef4....@news.easynews.com...
Bryan S. Slick
[Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:07:02 GMT]
:> You think it's ok to cheat since some internet players do.
:>
:
:wrong. it is absolutely not cheating in an online environment. it is
:simply an alternate way to play that has more reward than risk ... period.
:
:if you really want to close the hole then you need to provide a way to
:police the game such that it is impossible to cardshare online. if you
:will not or cannot do this then your only basis for asking a player to
:decline to use computer assistance and/or cardshare is because you have
:better chances if they play the way you want them to.
That's about the deepest dive into self-delusion I've ever seen on
Usenet.
Wow. What a worthless waste.
WinHoldemSupport
and so let me get this straight ...
you are asserting that all of their info is 100% accurate?
and how would you know if it is accurate or not?
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
James Campbell
Should I go with the guy who uses the lions eating gazelles analogy or D&B a
multi-million dollar corporation. This may take a while, I will have to get
back to you.
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:kEnIc.19561300$Of.32...@news.easynews.com...
WinHoldemSupport
i am told that some of the d&b info is very inaccurate.
i am also told that management does not mind that it is inaccurate.
winholdem support
http://www.pokerbot.com
James Campbell
You have gone from sad to pathetic, you have been called and found
bluffing... You need to try a different angle here are some suggestions:
1) You were experiencing periods of Schizophrenia over the past few months
but this in no way effects your ability to program and should not be used as
a decision factor in purchasing your software.
2) Your dam kids were using your computer to look at porn and pretend to be
support grunts for your software. They have been beaten and are back to
their usual chores of spamming the appropriate Risk newsgroups.
3) You never said there were multiple support grunts, any such references
are figments of everyone's imagination.
"WinHoldemSupport" <anon...@winholdem.net> wrote in message
news:0zoIc.19564748$Of.32...@news.easynews.com...
Buck Fush
> I play fair, and I beat the games. I will not resort to cheating.
If you use programs like Poker Tracker, Poker Office, or any other
cheating program to assist you, then this statement is false.
> You think it's ok to cheat since some internet players do.
And you think it's ok to cheat because you can justify to yourself
that Poker Tracker and Poker Office are not cheating programs.
> We will always disagree on that point on that point as a matter of
> ethics.
>
> I just don't understand you coming on and asking "why people hate
> winhold'em" and "what it is that pisses them off."
What I don't understand is why people hate WinHoldem so much and don't
say a word about the other cheating devices. Maybe because these
players are using these cheating devices to clean out the fish, and
don't need a program like WH, and because they are scared to play
against other players who may be using it (the cheaters cheating the
cheaters LOL).
> It's obviously because most people are not willing to make the moral
> compromises you and the people who buy this program have made.
Words like "moral" don't belong on a poker newsgroup.
Buck Fush
> I did not say that. I said a good player can still win despite the
> current amount of cheating that goes on.
I'll bet the idiots who play 3 card monte dealt out by some Times
Square crack nigger say the same thing, before reality hits them
square in the nuts.
> I don't tell new players this. I tell them the games are still beatable
> at the current level of cheating.
Of course, it is in YOUR BEST INTEREST to tell new players that they
can win even if they're being cheated, because YOU are one of the ones
cheating them!
> Let me ask this. Why are online sites freezing the accounts of players
> when they detect winhold'em.
Because they want to maintain the APPEARANCE that their players won't
be cheated. Meanwhile they do nothing about the other cheating
programs that their players use. This is because they are afraid that
these cheaters (so-called pro players) will run from their sites (and
thus quit paying rake).
> Anyone with a sense of moral obligation would not do what you're doing.
You're a poker player. What do you give a shit about "moral"?
Jacob Johannsen
All this boils down to saying that "If you can't make sure that people
obey a particular rule, then everyone is allowed to break it."
Absolute nonsense.
Other people may have problems with their logic, but you clearly have
problems with ethics.
--
/Jacob Johannsen aka CNN
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