Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

GARY CARSON: PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS

6 views
Skip to first unread message

Alannschoonmaker

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 11:21:09 AM4/5/01
to
For several months I have read your cheap shots at me, my book ("The Psychology
of Poker"), and my publisher (Mason Malmuth). I ignored them, but you've done
it too often.

It is time to call you. If you seriously believe your book is better than mine,
you can make an easy $25,000.

As a psychologist, understanding people is my business, and I did my homework.
You have made THOUSANDS of posts, and they clearly reveal your severe problems
with jealousy and self-esteem.

Your typical post has an adolescent tone, even when you are technically
correct. You say, in effect, "I'm smarter than you are." I used to say the same
sort of thing, but I was a teenager at the time. You are very old to be acting
so childishly.

Your anger at Mason and me has one primary source: You deeply resent that we
are successes, while you're a failure. He is the most respected poker
publisher; I've written a book that has sold well and been very positively
reviewed (plus several others in seven languages), but no respected company
will publish your work.

To protect your bruised ego you knock me and other successful writers and
insist that the only reason you can't get published is prejudice. You
apparently have found some tiny firm that will produce your book (or are you
using a bogus firm to cover up that you are paying to publish it?). I doubt
very much that it will sell well.

The gambling world has a simple expression: "Put up or shut up." I'll bet you
any amount you like up to $25,000 (which we must put in "escrow") that my sales
exceed yours. We will let the market decide which book is better since you
don't believe the reviewers or publishers.

You have ignored the other reviewers and repeatedly put down my book. If you
seriously think yours is better, you can show your confidence by accepting this
challenge. If you don't accept it, you're admitting that your your book is not
as good as mine. The good publishers don't want it. The reviewers have ignored
it. And the readers won't buy it.

Serious publishers make their decisions on one simple criterion: Will the book
sell? Writers who claim that their books are good, but nobody will buy them are
like poker players who claim to play well, but lose consistently. The rules for
measuring success in both writing and publishing are very clear, and by those
rules, you're a loser.

Several publishers have told you that, but you can't accept it, and you express
your frustration by attacking successful authors and publishers.

Instead of venting your anger at the successes, you should learn from us. Work
closely with a tough editor. "Put your ego in your pocket," and accept
criticism. I did not like Mason's demanding hundreds of changes in my
manuscript, but making them produced a successful book. A tough editor might
convert your unmarketable manuscript into a worthwhile book.

Before submitting it to Two Plus Two, I had several other people criticize it,
and I made many of their suggested changes. I do it before submitting anything
for publication. Virtually all other professional writers do it, which is why
our work gets published and read.

If and when you produce a good book, I will welcome you as an equal. Until
then, I and many other people will regard you as just a pathetic wannabe.

Alan Schoonmaker, Ph.D. >>
alansch...@hotmail.com
alannsch...@cs.com

Jaeger T. Cat

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 11:39:29 AM4/5/01
to
In article <20010405112109...@ng-cj1.news.cs.com>,

Alannschoonmaker <alannsch...@cs.com> wrote:
>For several months I have read your cheap shots at me, my book ("The Psychology
>of Poker"), and my publisher (Mason Malmuth). I ignored them, but you've done
>it too often.
>

[various dick waving rants snipped]

Alan:

I don't think anyone would seriously dispute whether your book, or
Gary's book has (as of now) sold more copies. I'm sure it's yours.

So fucking what?

That just means it sold more copies. Which means that more people
bought yours than his. It means nothing as far as relative merits
vis-a-vis poker are concerned.

People buy shit everyday. It doesn't mean the shit smells good.
It just means that, sometimes, people are stupid.

I'd be very very wary of deciding to rate "how good a book is" by
"how much it sells".

But, of course, you're a Ph.D., so you already knew these things.

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 11:43:11 AM4/5/01
to
Grow up Alan.

I didn't like your book.

I'm sorry you can't cope with that.

I'm happy for your interest in my book, however.

It's supposed to be out April 20th. The delay had nothing to do with
any difficulties I'd had in selling the book but has been the result
of bankruptcy proceedings invovling Carol Publishing, the previous
owner of the Lyle Stuart imprint.

I'm sure Mason Malmuth is a great editor and 'm sure your book
profited from that a great deal. His literary skills are well known
in the publishing industry. I just don't think it was enough to
overcome the limitations of your simplistic, rigid, two-dimensional
view of player behavioral characteristics.

Again, I'm sorry that your having difficulty coping with that. You
mgith want to consider seeking professional counseling help in
overcoming that.

Again, thanks for the interest in my book. I'm sure that you'll be
able to find many flaws in it.


Gary Carson
www.garycarson.com


On 05 Apr 2001 15:21:09 GMT, alannsch...@cs.com
(Alannschoonmaker) wrote:

Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 11:48:25 AM4/5/01
to
I think John Patrick is the best selling author of gambling books.

I don't know, because I don't have access to audits of sales figures
of his books (or of Shoonmaker's book, which is one of the many things
that makes his proposed bet as silly as his book is). But, Patricks
editor has told me that they sell well.

Gary Carson

On 5 Apr 2001 11:39:29 -0400, jae...@pluto.njcc.com (Jaeger T. Cat)
wrote:

Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

A. Prock

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 12:33:26 PM4/5/01
to
According to Alannschoonmaker <alannsch...@cs.com>:

>For several months I have read your cheap shots at me, my book ("The Psychology
>of Poker"), and my publisher (Mason Malmuth). I ignored them, but you've done
>it too often.
>
>It is time to call you. If you seriously believe your book is better than mine,
>you can make an easy $25,000.
>
>As a psychologist, understanding people is my business, and I did my homework.
>You have made THOUSANDS of posts, and they clearly reveal your severe problems
>with jealousy and self-esteem.
>
>Your typical post has an adolescent tone, even when you are technically
>correct. You say, in effect, "I'm smarter than you are." I used to say the same
>sort of thing, but I was a teenager at the time. You are very old to be acting
>so childishly.

[snip]

>The gambling world has a simple expression: "Put up or shut up." I'll bet you
>any amount you like up to $25,000 (which we must put in "escrow") that my sales
>exceed yours. We will let the market decide which book is better since you
>don't believe the reviewers or publishers.

I think that there is another expression I've heard.
It has something to do with a pot a kettle and a
particularly dark and depressing color. I've also
heard of a Psychology term called "projection".

While I'm certain that Gary Carson isn't the most
diplomatic fellow, I'm not certain that the best
thing to is to get into an argument with him. He
may not be the most mature person in the world, but
he does know how to do two things very well.

1) play poker
2) debate on RGP

Both those qualities make him much more of an asset
to RGP than your book will ever be.

For the record, I tend to agree with Gary with respect
to your book. It's overly simplistic, and written
in a color by numbers kind of style. This makes
it a good book for beginning players, but not very
useful to advanced players. There are three books
which do a much better job of dealing with the issue
of player types than your book does. John Feeney's
book "Inside the Poker Mind" does a great job of
doing just that. Roy Cooke's "Cooke Collection" is
another book which accomplishes the same thing very
well. And then there is Laryy Phillps' "Zen and
the Art of Poker". While it is a bit simplistic in
its presentation, that is part of it's beauty.

Cheers,

- Andrew

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 12:44:46 PM4/5/01
to
On 5 Apr 2001 16:33:26 GMT, jeffy...@yahoo.com (A. Prock) wrote:

>According to Alannschoonmaker <alannsch...@cs.com>:
>


>For the record, I tend to agree with Gary with respect
>to your book. It's overly simplistic, and written
>in a color by numbers kind of style. This makes
>it a good book for beginning players, but not very
>useful to advanced players. There are three books
>which do a much better job of dealing with the issue
>of player types than your book does. John Feeney's
>book "Inside the Poker Mind" does a great job of
>doing just that. Roy Cooke's "Cooke Collection" is
>another book which accomplishes the same thing very
>well. And then there is Laryy Phillps' "Zen and
>the Art of Poker". While it is a bit simplistic in
>its presentation, that is part of it's beauty.

I thought the presentation in the Zen book was a little jumbled,
reducing it's usefullness somewhat. I thought the material was pretty
good, but just not well organized at all.

I havn't read the Cooke book, but have heard nothing but good things
about it.

I agree that Feeney's book is very good.

I got my copy of Shoonmaker's book by trading an ebook copy of my
book with someone. Mason won't send me review copies of 2+2 books. I
don't know why.


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

RazzO

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 12:50:09 PM4/5/01
to
> I don't know why.

You're kidding? :)

razzo

Gary Carson wrote:

--
_____________________________________________
POKERWORLD.COM
http://www.pokerworld.com
ADVERTISE IN FLASH in 2001
http://www.pokerworld.com/flashinfo1.html

My Pic ->> http://www.razzo.com/razz994.gif


Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 1:11:27 PM4/5/01
to
On Thu, 05 Apr 2001 16:44:46 GMT, garyc...@mindspring.com (Gary
Carson) wrote:

>On 5 Apr 2001 16:33:26 GMT, jeffy...@yahoo.com (A. Prock) wrote:
>
>>According to Alannschoonmaker <alannsch...@cs.com>:
>>
>>For the record, I tend to agree with Gary with respect
>>to your book. It's overly simplistic, and written
>>in a color by numbers kind of style. This makes
>>it a good book for beginning players, but not very
>>useful to advanced players. There are three books
>>which do a much better job of dealing with the issue
>>of player types than your book does. John Feeney's
>>book "Inside the Poker Mind" does a great job of
>>doing just that. Roy Cooke's "Cooke Collection" is
>>another book which accomplishes the same thing very
>>well. And then there is Laryy Phillps' "Zen and
>>the Art of Poker". While it is a bit simplistic in
>>its presentation, that is part of it's beauty.
>
>I thought the presentation in the Zen book was a little jumbled,
>reducing it's usefullness somewhat.

I thought it was a little jumbled myself.
Wayno


RMITCHCOLL

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 2:03:52 PM4/5/01
to
>If and when you produce a good book, I will welcome you as an equal. Until
>then, I and many other people will regard you as just a pathetic wannabe.

There is an old saying in America that partisanship ends at the shore line. I
guess it means that we can bicker among each other but when an outsider attacks
us, we stand together. Gary Carson may be an opinionated smartass(I mean that
in the nicest way Gary), but he is OUR opinionated asshole. You might be a
great author and poker mind, but on RGP you are an outsider. Please dont attack
our Gary.

Have a nice day.
Randy Collack

Terrence Chan

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 2:15:32 PM4/5/01
to
On 05 Apr 2001 15:21:09 GMT, alannsch...@cs.com
(Alannschoonmaker) wrote:

>'ll bet you
>any amount you like up to $25,000 (which we must put in "escrow") that my sales
>exceed yours. We will let the market decide which book is better since you
>don't believe the reviewers or publishers.

Well, purely in the interest of fairness and gamesmanship, I think
Gary's book would have to be published by 2+2.

Mason? Gary? Thoughts?


--
Terrence Chan
http://www.sfu.ca/~tchand/

"It profiteth the wise, to be deemed a fool."
-Oceanus, Aeschylus' _Prometheus Bound_

Barbara Yoon

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 2:16:29 PM4/5/01
to
Alannschoonmaker:
> ...cheap shots at me, my book, and my publisher (Mason Malmuth).
> ...clearly reveal your severe problems with jealousy and self-esteem.
> ...adolescent tone... ...acting so childishly. ... Mason and me...

> You deeply resent that we are successes, while you're a failure.
> "Put up or shut up." I'll bet you any amount you like up to $25,000
> (which we must put in "escrow") that my sales exceed yours. ... If and

> when you produce a good book, I will welcome you as an equal. Until
> then, I and many other people will regard you as just a pathetic wannabe.

"I will welcome you as an equal?!" Whaaa?! Do you mean here that
writing a book somehow makes you 'superior?!'

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 2:30:52 PM4/5/01
to
On Thu, 05 Apr 2001 11:15:32 -0700, Terrence Chan
<terren...@telus.net> wrote:

>On 05 Apr 2001 15:21:09 GMT, alannsch...@cs.com
>(Alannschoonmaker) wrote:
>
>>'ll bet you
>>any amount you like up to $25,000 (which we must put in "escrow") that my sales
>>exceed yours. We will let the market decide which book is better since you
>>don't believe the reviewers or publishers.
>
>Well, purely in the interest of fairness and gamesmanship, I think
>Gary's book would have to be published by 2+2.

I think Mason is already on record on that subject.

But, wouldn't we need to have the same publication date also?


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 2:32:29 PM4/5/01
to
On Thu, 5 Apr 2001 14:16:29 -0400, "Barbara Yoon" <by...@erols.com>
wrote:

Some guys, when they get a little older, they start losing their hair
and exibit other signs of aging. When that happens, they'll do
whatever it takes to get it hard again, even writing a book.


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 2:37:21 PM4/5/01
to
On 05 Apr 2001 18:03:52 GMT, rmitc...@aol.com (RMITCHCOLL) wrote:

>>If and when you produce a good book, I will welcome you as an equal. Until
>>then, I and many other people will regard you as just a pathetic wannabe.
>
>There is an old saying in America that partisanship ends at the shore line. I
>guess it means that we can bicker among each other but when an outsider attacks
>us, we stand together. Gary Carson may be an opinionated smartass(I mean that
>in the nicest way Gary),

That's much better than what Matt told me last night, knowi-it-all
asshole is what he said. But, he was drunk.

Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Linda Sherman

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 3:27:17 PM4/5/01
to
"Alannschoonmaker" <alannsch...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20010405112109...@ng-cj1.news.cs.com...

> For several months I have read your cheap shots at me, my book ("The
Psychology
> of Poker"), and my publisher (Mason Malmuth). I ignored them, but you've
done
> it too often...

Do you have a chapter about letting opponents get you on tilt?


Linda


Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 3:26:09 PM4/5/01
to

It's the best chapter in the book, Linda. That chapter alone is worth
the price.


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Jan Suchanek

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 3:53:56 PM4/5/01
to
The idea that just because something sells more in quantity means that it is
better in quality is laughable. First example that comes to mind is the
operating system most of us are using to read this newsgroup.

Alannschoonmaker <alannsch...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20010405112109...@ng-cj1.news.cs.com...

HrgSmes

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 6:09:13 PM4/5/01
to
I don't personally know Alan Schoonmaker, and think his stuff is a bit thin. I
have written here and there about poker, but most of my publications -- 5
books, several hundred articles -- have been in the area of child and
adolescent and general psychiatry and -- mostly -- film reviews and
scholarship.

I think it vastly inappropriate to attack someone on the basis of inferred
psychology, particularly when one hasn't personally met them, but in general it
shouldn't be done in a public forum. Our APA guidelines are very specific about
this.

In any case, I have followed Gary's writing closely, and have recently used his
expertise at high low poker to very good effect. I think he is a very
knowledgeable gent, and far more interesting than many of the pooh-bahs writing
about poker today.

Schoonmaker is certainly entitled to his opinions, but an ad hominem argument
is always vastly offputting, and generally suspect.

Those who know me and or my posts will recognize that I don't usually respond
so strongly to other RGP folks, so please presume there is good reason to do
so, both pokerwise and from the viewpoint of appropriate professional behavior.


HR Greenberg MD
Clinical Professor of Psychiatry,
Albert Einstein College of Medicine at Yeshiva University
New York

Paul E. Stine

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 6:22:47 PM4/5/01
to
I thought the offical term was "... some smartass know-it-all from
Texas."

Or was that me?

Paul Stine
College Station, TX

Paul E. Stine

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 6:27:49 PM4/5/01
to
Wow, one psychiatrist (MD) and two PhD psychologists on one poker
newsgroup.

We are seriously fucked, people.

Paul Stine
College Station, TX

Bjgkaraoke

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 7:27:57 PM4/5/01
to
I don't know either of these professional gentlemen; however, if I ever needed
psychiatric help, I know I would trust the doctor who wrote this letter more
than the original poster. Barbara G.

Alannschoonmaker

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 7:31:18 PM4/5/01
to

My post has had exactly the effect I hoped for: It has started a controversy.
Since so many responses have been made, I'll deal with several of them at once.

One of his friends wrote:
There is an old saying in America that partisanship ends at the shore line. I
guess it means that we can bicker among each other but when an outsider attacks
us, we stand together. Gary Carson may be an opinionated smartass(I mean that

in the nicest way Gary), but he is OUR opinionated asshole. You might be a
great author and poker mind, but on RGP you are an outsider. Please dont attack
our Gary.

Have a nice day.
Randy Collack

It's nice that his friends want to defend him, but doing so just because he is
an insider obscures my central issues, the quality of our respective books and
his repeated attacks on me.

I ignored Gary's attacks for months. Every author learns to live with
criticism, but Gary was clearly engaged in a vendetta, even though I had never
met him or said one word about him. After more than five attacks, I responded.

There are three standard ways to evaluate books.

First, by the reputation of the publisher. Mine has been published by Two Plus
Two, the most respected poker publisher, while not one quality publisher will
publish his.

Second, by the reviews. I had not met Andy Glazer when he said "The Psychology
of Poker" was "The poker book of the year 2000." Has any respected writer said
anything remotely as positive about Carson's book?

Third and most important, by sales. Mason published enough books to cover the
anticipated demand for the first two years. Less than four months later he
ordered a second printing. Despite everything Gary has done to kill the sales,
people are buying it, and they will continue to do so because it helps them.

In my post I referred to the adolescent tone of many of Gary's posts. Let me
quote one of his responses:

Some guys, when they get a little older, they start losing their hair
and exibit other signs of aging. When that happens, they'll do
whatever it takes to get it hard again, even writing a book.

How can anyone take him seriously when he refuses my challenge, ignores the
substantive issues I have raised, and comments on my hair and penis?
Incidentally, I published my first book more than 30 years ago. His remarks
aren't adolescent; they are childish.

Several posters raised a much more legitimate criticism, the book's simplicity.
I agree with that criticism, and I said so months ago so in a "Poker Digest"
column titled "Why you lose in cardrooms." My exact words were:

"Several professionals have told me that my own system is too simple, and I
always respond: ‘You're right. I didn't develop it for professionals because
you don't need it. You know how to read players. But most people don't have
your gifts, and they need some simplistic system that lets them do a little or
what you do naturally.'"

Every well crafted book is aimed at a clearly defined target audience. My book
is a textbook for "Poker Psychology 101," and it is written for people who need
help with the basic principles. I have told many advanced players: Don't read
my book because it wasn't written for you. Read John Feeney's "Inside the poker
mind."

Mason published the two simultaneously so that readers would have a choice
between basic and advanced textbooks.

Why have I repeatedly admitted that my book is simplistic? Because I'm an
honest man, and I want my readers to get value for their money. If you are
already good at reading and adjusting to players and you understand your own
limitations, don't buy my book.

However, if you want help with these subjects, the objective reviewers and a
lot of readers say my book can be helpful.

Alan Schoonmaker
alannsch...@cs.com
alansch...@hotmail.com

PS. If you have been frustrated by your inability to reach me at the email
address in my book, I apologize. I had trouble with Juno and changed to the two
addresses listed above.

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 7:29:23 PM4/5/01
to

Maroon carrots.

Gary Carson

On Thu, 05 Apr 2001 22:27:49 GMT, pa...@gerg.tamu.edu (Paul E. Stine)
wrote:

Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Badger

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 8:29:12 PM4/5/01
to
"Alannschoonmaker" <alannsch...@cs.com> wrote...

> My post has had exactly the effect I hoped for: It has started a
controversy.

That is called "trolling" in newsgroup parlance.

> It's nice that his friends want to defend him, but doing so just because
he is
> an insider obscures my central issues, the quality of our respective books
and
> his repeated attacks on me.

Have you read Gary's book? (I haven't.) Perhaps you should consider
posting something about his book, after you read it.

> I ignored Gary's attacks for months. Every author learns to live with
> criticism, but Gary was clearly engaged in a vendetta, even though I had
never
> met him or said one word about him. After more than five attacks, I
responded.

I don't always read Gary's posts. What were these five "attacks"?

> There are three standard ways to evaluate books.

[publisher, reviews, sales]

I would have included "reading".

> Second, by the reviews. I had not met Andy Glazer when he said "The
Psychology
> of Poker" was "The poker book of the year 2000." Has any respected writer
said
> anything remotely as positive about Carson's book?
> Third and most important, by sales. Mason published enough books to cover
the
> anticipated demand for the first two years. Less than four months later he
> ordered a second printing. Despite everything Gary has done to kill the
sales,
> people are buying it, and they will continue to do so because it helps
them.

Gary is Gary when it comes to everybody else. It is self-absorbed to think
he has some special thingee for you. he has a special thingee for mason,
but it is quite self-absorbed for anyone else (possible exception of David,
but I don't think so) to think Gary has some special interest in them.

> However, if you want help with these subjects, the objective reviewers and
a
> lot of readers say my book can be helpful.

Cool. Gary doesn't think so.

Next.
--
Steve Badger
http://www.playwinningpoker.com


AuthorAndy

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 8:29:49 PM4/5/01
to
Alan Schoonmaker, writing of Gary Carson, wrote:

>
>For several months I have read your cheap shots at me, my book ("The
>Psychology
>of Poker"), and my publisher (Mason Malmuth). I ignored them, but you've done
>it too often.

(counterattacks snipped)

I haven't read all the alleged attacks. If there were as many as Alan alleges,
I could see where it could get tiring.

Nonetheless, I was disappointed in Alan's answer/counterattack.

I think that when Gary Carson sticks to analyzing poker, his work is very
valuable, and I look forward to seeing his book published.

I have read Alan's book, and indeed did call it "the poker book of the year for
2000." I think it will help a great many poker players, although (as Alan
himself freely admits) the help will be greater for those who are getting
started than for those who are successful veterans.

When Gary departs from poker analysis and gets into personal attacks, I'm
disappointed, just as I am with Alan here (although had I been the subject of
many attacks, I might have found it difficult to resist counterattacking
myself).

I think anytime anyone here tries to make a point via a personal attack, he
diminishes his credibility, rather than enhancing it. It's hard to resist
counterattacking (as I found out when KidPoker decided I would be his target of
the month a few months ago), but ultimately, sinking to the level of one's
attackers is self defeating.

I think each of these two writers has made useful and important contributions
to the poker literature. I don't see any reason why either has to tear down or
attack the other to build up his own work. Pointing out a specific error, or
bringing up a writer's specific opinion for debate, can be a useful process.
General attacks, especially when they get personal, aren't very useful.

Gary and Alan write about completely different subjects. There is room in this
world for more than one kind of good poker book.

Andy Glazer

Barbara Yoon

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 8:54:27 PM4/5/01
to
Alannschoonmaker:

>> My post has had exactly the effect I hoped for:
>> It has started a controversy.

Badger:


> That is called "trolling" in newsgroup parlance.

Alannschoonmaker:
>> I ignored Gary's attacks for months. Gary was clearly engaged in
>> a vendetta. After more than five attacks, I responded.

Badger:


> I don't always read Gary's posts. What were these five "attacks"?

Yes...some "attack" quotes for better perspective would be helpful
to those of us trying to make sense of this (for examples what I mean
by such quotes, see my own "yet another 'promotion' by Dsklansky..."
post earlier today...

Alannschoonmaker:


>> There are three standard ways to evaluate books.
>> [publisher, reviews, sales]

Badger:


> I would have included "reading".

Virtuoso display of profundity (or in other words, "BINGO!")...

Alannschoonmaker

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 9:43:00 PM4/5/01
to
Since I am unfamiliar with posting procedures, this message and one very
similar to it may appear in more than one place. I tried to post it, but did
not seem to succeed.

Dr. Greenberg is correct that ad hominum attacks are inappropriate, and Andy's
good will is appreciated, but I posted my messages after several months of
attacks by a complete stranger.

I ignored Gary's attacks for months. Every author learns to live with
criticism, but Gary was clearly engaged in a vendetta, even though I had never

met him or said one word about him. After more than five attacks, I responded.

Since so many responses have been made to my post, I'll deal with several of
them at once.

One of his friends wrote:
There is an old saying in America that partisanship ends at the shore line. I
guess it means that we can bicker among each other but when an outsider attacks
us, we stand together. Gary Carson may be an opinionated smartass(I mean that
in the nicest way Gary), but he is OUR opinionated asshole. You might be a
great author and poker mind, but on RGP you are an outsider. Please dont attack
our Gary.

Have a nice day.
Randy Collack

It's nice that his friends want to defend him, but doing so just because he is


an insider obscures my central issues, the quality of our respective books and
his repeated attacks on me.

There are three standard ways to evaluate books.

First, by the reputation of the publisher. Mine has been published by Two Plus


Two, the most respected poker publisher, while not one quality publisher will
publish his.

Second, by the reviews. I had not met Andy Glazer when he said "The Psychology


of Poker" was "The poker book of the year 2000." Has any respected writer said
anything remotely as positive about Carson's book?

Third and most important, by sales. Mason published enough books to cover the
anticipated demand for the first two years. Less than four months later he
ordered a second printing. Despite everything Gary has done to kill the sales,
people are buying it, and they will continue to do so because it helps them.

In my post I referred to the adolescent tone of many of Gary's posts. Let me
quote one of them which is part of this thread.

However, if you want help with these subjects, the objective reviewers and a
lot of readers say that my book can be helpful.

MichaelBadeaux

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 9:52:51 PM4/5/01
to
carson, is that the best you can do? I mean you talk a bunch of crapola,
badmouthing Schoonmaker like you are some sort of GOD, and all you can do is
try to make some sort of comparison between him and John Patrick? Any poker
player worth a tenth of his salt will be able to tell within two sentences that
Patrick's books are written for morons, by a moron. Any poker player who knows
stuff will obviously be able to tell that Schoonmaker's book is well written
and well edited and contains sound, logical, well thought out advice. If you
want to be up on some sort of high horse, you should at least be able to tell
us WHY YOU DESERVE TO BE THERE, without just spouting off some irrelevant
dribble of a comparison between apples and oranges. I tell you what, if your
book EVER ACTUALLY GETS PUBLISHED, I will buy it, then I can comment on whether
it deserves to be in the same category with either Schoonmaker, or Patrick.
Until then, I have read Schoonmaker's book. It deserves to have been published
by 2+2, who OBVIOUSLY AND BY FAR PUBLISHES THE BEST GAMBLING BOOKS AVAILABLE.
Get published by 2+2, or perhaps at all, then perhaps you will impress me even
as much as John Patrick does. At least his books got published.


Lee Munzer

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 10:18:35 PM4/5/01
to

"HrgSmes" wrote ...

> In any case, I have followed Gary's writing closely, and have recently
used his
> expertise at high low poker to very good effect. I think he is a very
> knowledgeable gent, and far more interesting than many of the pooh-bahs
writing
> about poker today.

Hey, Badger ... is you or is you not gonna respond to the Doc here calling
you a "Pooh-bah?"

Lee

DrToast

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 10:22:32 PM4/5/01
to
On Thu, 05 Apr 2001 12:50:09 -0400, RazzO <ra...@pokerworld.com>
wrote:

>> I don't know why.
>
>You're kidding? :)
>
>razzo

Razzo, I think Gary's holding out for an autographed copy of the book.

DrToast

"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue."

DrToast

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 10:25:00 PM4/5/01
to
On Thu, 05 Apr 2001 19:27:17 GMT, "Linda Sherman"
<she...@KILLTHESPAM.com> wrote:

Yes, but it's only 1/2 a page.

DrToast

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 10:33:47 PM4/5/01
to
On Thu, 5 Apr 2001 19:18:35 -0700, "Lee Munzer" <luck...@lvdi.net>
wrote:

Pooh-bah? That's the nicest thing anyone has called Badger in years.

Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 10:52:29 PM4/5/01
to


It's French for Grand Exalted Mystic Ruler
Best, Ralph K.

Creepshow

unread,
Apr 5, 2001, 10:55:34 PM4/5/01
to


>Wow, one psychiatrist (MD) and two PhD psychologists on one poker
>newsgroup.
>
>We are seriously fucked, people.

Paul, make that 2 physicians...does that mean that you are double-.......?
Gary Furness,MD (but staying away from this wee-wee contest)

HrgSmes

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 12:22:32 AM4/6/01
to
Actually, didnt have Badger in mind. HRG MD ENDIT

Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 12:45:04 AM4/6/01
to

>>>Hey, Badger ... is you or is you not gonna respond to the Doc here calling
>>>you a "Pooh-bah?"
>>>
>>>Lee
>>
>>Pooh-bah? That's the nicest thing anyone has called Badger in years.
>>
>>DrToast
>
>
> It's French for Grand Exalted Mystic Ruler
> Best, Ralph K.

Correction:

I now think it was "grand HIGH exalted mystic ruler"
in Ralph Kramden's racoon lodge.

Reference:
The episode where Ralph is trying to get Norton's vote for
him as "Racoon of the Year".

RALPHIE BOY: "C'mon, Norton, you gotta vote for me. Who took
you to the hospital when you got hit in the head with a
baseball bat? I did!"
NORTON: "Oh, yeah? Who HIT me in the head with a baseball
bat? YOU did!"

greatbrit

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 2:06:28 AM4/6/01
to
MichaelBadeaux wrote:

> carson, is that the best you can do? I mean you talk a bunch of crapola,
> badmouthing Schoonmaker like you are some sort of GOD, and all you can do is
> try to make some sort of comparison between him and John Patrick? Any poker
> player worth a tenth of his salt will be able to tell within two sentences that

> Patrick's books are written for morons, by a moron....

The way I read Gary's response, that was his whole point, i.e. that the moron John
Patrick has sold many more books than any of the reputable poker writers. He was
responding to Alan Schoonmaker's asinine argument that Alan's book must be better
than Gary's because he has had sold more books than Gary has.

Paul
not afraid to use dangling participles.

Kings Over

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 2:12:21 AM4/6/01
to
Why don't you two just get together and compare Dick sizes, I am sure
that you would both feel much better :~|


On 05 Apr 2001 23:31:18 GMT, alannsch...@cs.com
(Alannschoonmaker) wrote:

>always respond: 塑ou're right. I didn't develop it for professionals because


>you don't need it. You know how to read players. But most people don't have
>your gifts, and they need some simplistic system that lets them do a little or
>what you do naturally.'"
>
>Every well crafted book is aimed at a clearly defined target audience. My book
>is a textbook for "Poker Psychology 101," and it is written for people who need
>help with the basic principles. I have told many advanced players: Don't read
>my book because it wasn't written for you. Read John Feeney's "Inside the poker
>mind."
>
>Mason published the two simultaneously so that readers would have a choice
>between basic and advanced textbooks.
>
>Why have I repeatedly admitted that my book is simplistic? Because I'm an
>honest man, and I want my readers to get value for their money. If you are
>already good at reading and adjusting to players and you understand your own
>limitations, don't buy my book.
>
>However, if you want help with these subjects, the objective reviewers and a
>lot of readers say my book can be helpful.
>
>Alan Schoonmaker
>alannsch...@cs.com
>alansch...@hotmail.com
>
>PS. If you have been frustrated by your inability to reach me at the email
>address in my book, I apologize. I had trouble with Juno and changed to the two
>addresses listed above.

KK/AA

May you have the hindsight to know where you have been, the foresight to know where you are going, and the insight to know when you have gone too far...

Mason Malmuth

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 5:02:16 AM4/6/01
to
I can't say for sure but I believe that Patrick's sales figures are far lower than you
think. There are two reasons I believe this. First, if you go to either Amazon.com or
Barnes & Noble.com and look at sales rank numbers of his titles, you will see that
they are very high which reflect poor sales. Second, I have been told that his company
went bankrupt. To be fair, I'm not sure that is the case, but we use to occasionally
hear from them and we haven't heard from them in years.

MM

greatbrit

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 5:39:58 AM4/6/01
to
Mason Malmuth wrote:

> I can't say for sure but I believe that Patrick's sales figures are far lower than you

> think....

I'm sure you could well be correct (I have no idea), but remember he has been around for
many years and has always had tremendous visibility on bookshelves in every well known
bookstore, plus he also used to have TV infomercials so was probably extremely well known
back when his clothes were still in style, which makes me think he might have sold a lot
of books in the old days before people realized what a load of twaddle he wrote (I'm going
back to England in several fortnights, I have to practice the expressions).

Paul
not afraid of one sentence paragraphs

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 7:26:39 AM4/6/01
to
On 06 Apr 2001 01:52:51 GMT, michael...@aol.com (MichaelBadeaux)
wrote:

>carson, is that the best you can do? I mean you talk a bunch of crapola,
>badmouthing Schoonmaker like you are some sort of GOD,

I don't like his book. I don't recall having previously saying
anthing about Schoonmaker at all.

> and all you can do is
>try to make some sort of comparison between him and John Patrick?

Actually, I didn't do that.

>Any poker
>player worth a tenth of his salt will be able to tell within two sentences that
>Patrick's books are written for morons, by a moron.

And?

Thjey sell. I'm not the one that suggested sales is a sign of
quality. Schoonmaker did that.

Personally, I don't really care whether my book is better or worse
than Schoonmaker's, or Patrick's for that matter. My work is either
good or it's not. That doesn't really have much to do with whether
Schoonmaker's work is any good or not.


>Any poker player who knows
>stuff will obviously be able to tell that Schoonmaker's book is well written
>and well edited and contains sound, logical, well thought out advice. If you
>want to be up on some sort of high horse, you should at least be able to tell
>us WHY YOU DESERVE TO BE THERE, without just spouting off some irrelevant
>dribble of a comparison between apples and oranges.

I didn't make a comparision.

> I tell you what, if your
>book EVER ACTUALLY GETS PUBLISHED, I will buy it, then I can comment on whether
>it deserves to be in the same category with either Schoonmaker, or Patrick.

You might want to read it. But, maybe you don't need to do that.

>Until then, I have read Schoonmaker's book. It deserves to have been published

I'm sure that makes Alan happy.

>by 2+2, who OBVIOUSLY AND BY FAR PUBLISHES THE BEST GAMBLING BOOKS AVAILABLE.
>Get published by 2+2, or perhaps at all, then perhaps you will impress me even
>as much as John Patrick does. At least his books got published.

I'm sure it's important to Alan to impress you. It's not really that
important to me though.

April 20th, btw, is the planned publication date. Lyle Stuart. You
might want to look them up. But, then again you might not want to.


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 7:30:29 AM4/6/01
to
On Fri, 06 Apr 2001 02:02:16 -0700, Mason Malmuth
<masonm...@twoplustwo.com> wrote:

>I can't say for sure but I believe that Patrick's sales figures are far lower than you
>think. There are two reasons I believe this. First, if you go to either Amazon.com or
>Barnes & Noble.com and look at sales rank numbers of his titles, you will see that
>they are very high which reflect poor sales. Second, I have been told that his company
>went bankrupt. To be fair, I'm not sure that is the case, but we use to occasionally
>hear from them and we haven't heard from them in years.

As has been pointed out to you before, my book was ranked in something
like the top 1/3 in sales of all books listed by Amazon when the book
didn't even exist.

Not exactly what I'd call reliable data.

I was told that you were invovled in a publishing venture that went
bankrupt Mason? Is that true?


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 7:51:51 AM4/6/01
to
On Fri, 06 Apr 2001 00:29:12 GMT, "Badger"
<PlayWinningPoker(NOSPAM)@earthlink.net> wrote:


>
>I don't always read Gary's posts. What were these five "attacks"?

I'm pretty sure that I've never said anything about Schoonmaker other
than what I may have said in this thread. My previous comments where
about his book, not him.

I think the last time I said somelthing about his book I said
something to the effect that I didn't like it, didn't think it was of
any value, but that I'd been told by more than one person whose
opinion I respect that they think the book is useful for beginners, so
it was possible I was mis-evaluating the book.

Howver, I've recently become convinced that I did not misevauluate it.

>Gary is Gary when it comes to everybody else. It is self-absorbed to think
>he has some special thingee for you. he has a special thingee for mason,
>but it is quite self-absorbed for anyone else (possible exception of David,
>but I don't think so) to think Gary has some special interest in them.

Actually I like David. Until this thread I don't think I'd ever given
any thought to Shoonmaker at all.

I can't imagine why he'd think I give him any thought at all and I
can't imagine why he cares what I think of his book. I guess I must
just be more important than I would have thought I am.


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 8:04:14 AM4/6/01
to
On 05 Apr 2001 23:31:18 GMT, alannsch...@cs.com
(Alannschoonmaker) wrote:

>First, by the reputation of the publisher. Mine has been published by Two Plus
>Two, the most respected poker publisher, while not one quality publisher will
>publish his.

The ignorance displayed by this statement overwhelms me.

Lyle Stuart has been publishing gambling books long before Mason
Malmuth started up 2+2 as a vehicle to self-publish his work. Just a
few of the works they've published might fall under the catogory of
classic. Poker players may be familiar with Caro's Book of Tells.

I have no idea how you managed to be so completely misinformed. I'm
guessing it was by paying attention to Malmuth however.

Why don't you just give it a rest and take a nap? I'm sure you'll
feel better tomorrow.


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 8:16:31 AM4/6/01
to
On 05 Apr 2001 23:31:18 GMT, alannsch...@cs.com
(Alannschoonmaker) wrote:

>First, by the reputation of the publisher. Mine has been published by Two Plus
>Two, the most respected poker publisher, while not one quality publisher will
>publish his.

In addition to Caro's Book of Tells, they published some of Ken
Uston's work, such as On Blackjack.

Your ignorance just floors me.



Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

TIGER123

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 8:55:00 AM4/6/01
to
sorry, gang.

the reference is to gilbert and sullivan's "the mikado", where ko-ko is the
lord high executioner and pooh-bah is the lord high everything else.

tiger

------------------

Lee Munzer

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 10:38:12 AM4/6/01
to

"greatbrit" <pwes...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3ACD8EED...@pacbell.net...

Not disagreeing with visibility leading to sales, but anyone with a modicum
of gambling savvy would never have bought a Patrick book after listening to
one mistake after another coming out of his mouth on TV. His football
handicapping attempts were laughable ... not the results (which were poor)
as much as the "logic" he used.

Lee

Lee Munzer

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 10:44:41 AM4/6/01
to

"HrgSmes" ...

> Actually, didnt have Badger in mind. HRG MD ENDIT

Yeah, but it's so much more fun picturing Badger in a giant turbin than
David.

Lee

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 3:56:10 PM4/6/01
to
On Fri, 6 Apr 2001 07:38:12 -0700, "Lee Munzer" <luck...@lvdi.net>
wrote:

>

>Not disagreeing with visibility leading to sales, but anyone with a modicum
>of gambling savvy would never have bought a Patrick book after listening to
>one mistake after another coming out of his mouth on TV. His football
>handicapping attempts were laughable ... not the results (which were poor)
>as much as the "logic" he used.

What are you saying Lee?

Are you saying that even if my books has higher sales than Alan's that
he'll win becuase his book will be bought by more people with high
SATs?


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 5:07:51 PM4/6/01
to

My book was originally listed in Carol Publishing Groups Fall 1999
catalog. The publishing imprint Carol used for gambling books is Lyle
Stuart, which much like 2+2 was an imprint originally developed as a
self-publishing venture. In this case by a guy named Lyle Stuart.

To that degree Lyle Stuart has some simulatires to 2+2. But, only
minor superficial ones. Mason had not been successful in placing his
work with mainstream publishers, Stuart had done some gambling books
for publishers such as Bonus Books.

I'm not sure of the details of how Carol came to aquire Lyle Stuart, I
think Carol was the name of Stuart's wife, there was a divorce and
some kind of property dispute, whatever, whatever.

Someplace, buried under mounds of rotting manuscript paper, I have a
copy of the Fall 1999 Carol catolog that lists the wide range of
gambling books published by Carol. Most, but not all used the Lyle
Stuart imprint. They also published a series that was one of the many
ripoffs of the "Dummies" series. Idiot's Guide to Whatever is I think
what Carol published. And, as an example of the range of books, below
is a list of Carol travel books I ran across on the internet. Note
that a couple of them are gambling related.

During the Carol bankruptcy, the entire Carol catalog was purchased by
Kensington Publishing. They are the ones bringing my book out in a
couple of weeks, still under the Lyle Stuart imprint.

What relevance to anything does all this have? Well, none really. At
least no relevance to whether your book is any good or not. (I don't
think I've ever tried to compare your book to mine, that seems
pointless to me).

It's just striking to me how ignorant your rant about me not being
able to find a publisher is. That's a claim that Mason has made many
times in the last year and a half, but I knew that Mason was aware
that it wasn't true and he was just saying that as a way to dig at me
about my misfortune in my publishers bankruptcy. You, however, appear
to think it's actually true.

The history of my book is that in about August 1998 I decided to write
a hold'em book. In early September I sent out about 20 query letters
to various publishers who had a history of publishing gambling books
to see if they were interested in seeing a proposal. (2+2 was not one
of the publishers I approached, they were all mainstream houses, I
avoided specialty publishers). As expected, most said no. Five of
the 20 said yes. I only sent a proposal to four of them, Cardoza
indicated an interest but I decided not to pursue that. I finished
the proposal in late September and sent it to the four houses. I
don't recall which ones (I have it written down someplace). The games
and puzzles editor at Sterling was one, and they responded quickly
that they didn't have an interest.

While all this was going on I was also trying to dig up an agent with
a track record in placing gambling books. I sent out a few letters to
some agents.

In November I got a call from an acquisitions editor at Carol. They
were interested, they were going to mail me a contract. After I got
off the phone with him I called an agent that I'd written, told her I
had an offer and if she wanted to negotiate the contract. Of course,
as all the books say, getting an agent when you have an offer in hand
is not real tough. (I found out later that she had placed Andy
Glazer's book also).

Anyway, I signed a contract with them in December 1998. That's 4
months between deciding to write a book and signing a publishing
contract. That's not a time frame that suggests a hard time finding a
publisher.

I finished the book in August 1999, but they went bankrupt while the
book was in production, production stopped until December 2000 when
the Carol catolog was sold (Carol is still in bankruptcy court).
Although I did make a feeble attempt to break the contract during the
bankruptcy so I could seek another publisher, that didn't work so the
delay in publication has had nothing to do with lack of a publisher.

Mason knows all that. If you, Alan, relied on Mason's bullshit to
make your statements about my inablility to find a publisher, then
that's just an indication why my previos statements that no real
writer would do a book for 2+2. Mason just can't be trusted to be
truthful.

I got to this in a real roundabout way, but I've been thinking about
what you meant when you said I've insulted you. It occured to me that
whan I've said that no real writer would do a book for 2+2 that you
took that as a personal insult.

Well,maybe that is an insult. But, the sad thing is that it's true.
No real writer would do a book for 2+2. The reason I've said that is
that Mason demands you do the book as a work-for-hire, giving him
copyright. That's just crap, no real writer would do that for a
serious book. You've managed to give other support for my claim in
with your ignorant statements about my publisher problems. If just
demonstrated that it's a mistake to believe anything Mason says.

You might not be aware that Mason did ask me to submit some work to
him at one time. And David told me that he was sure he could help me
convince Mason to offer me a book rights contract rather than an all
rights contract.

Of course when I turned them down they started making public
announcements that nothing I did would be worth publsihkng. That's
just the kind of people you're doing business with Alan. I wish you
luck.

Here's that list of travel titles. This ended up being a lot longer
than I'd intended. But, I don't have time to write short right now.

Adventure Vacations: A 50-State Guide to Rock Climbing, Horseback
Riding, Spelunking, Whitewater Rafting, Snorkeling, Hang Gliding, and
Ballooning
America's Strangest Museums: A Traveler's Guide to the Most Unusual
and Eccentric Collections
Beer Here: A Traveler's Guide to American Brewpubs and Microbreweries
Casinos Coast to Coast: A Complete Guide to the Best Hotels, Food,
Comps, Gambling, and Entertainment Across the Country
Cheapskate's Guide to Las Vegas: Hotels, Gambling, Food, Shows, and
More
Cheapskate's Guide to London: Hotels, Food, Shopping, Shows, Day
Trips, and More
Cheapskate's Guide to Paris: Hotels, Food, Shopping, Day Trips, and
More
Cheapskate's Guide to Rome and Venice: Hotels, Food, Shopping,
Museums, and More
Cheapskate's Guide to San Francisco: Where to Go, What to See, Where
to Shop, Where to Stay – All on a Limited Budget
Cheapskate's Guide to Vacations: How to Save Thousands of Dollars No
Matter Where You're Going
Cheapskate's Guide to Weddings and Honeymoons: Doing It right Without
Spending a Fortune
Cheapskate's Unauthorized Guide to Walt Disney World: Time Saving
Techniques and the Best Values in Lodging, Food, and Shopping
Gay Vacation Guide: The Best Trips and How to Plan Them
Infamous Manhattan: A Colorful Walking Tour of New York's Most
Notorious Crime Sites
International Dictionary: The Words You Need in 21 Languages
Opera Lover's Guide to Europe
Roller Coaster Lover's Companion
Shot on This Site: A Traveler's Guide to the Places and Locations Used
to Film Famous Movies and Television Shows
Where the Ghosts Are: The Ultimate Guide to Haunted Houses

>
>
>
>Gary Carson
>http://www.garycarson.com

Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 5:18:07 PM4/6/01
to
On 06 Apr 2001 01:43:00 GMT, alannsch...@cs.com
(Alannschoonmaker) wrote:


>There are three standard ways to evaluate books.
>
>First, by the reputation of the publisher. Mine has been published by Two Plus
>Two, the most respected poker publisher, while not one quality publisher will
>publish his.

Here is a link to a publisher's weekly story written about Carol when
they stopped production of my book in August 1999.

http://www.publishersweekly.com/articles/19990823_79920.asp

That story says they aren't being liquidated and aren't in bankruptcy.
The bankruptcy filing came two months later.

Here's a quote fromt he story.

"Carol Publishing, 10 years old, includes Birch Lane Press, Lyle
Stuart, Carol Paperbacks and Citadel Press. Its list concentrates on
such areas as entertainment, with strong movie, New Age, Judaica and
gambling lines. "

The Lyle Stuart imprint is older than Carol, originating in the late
70's I think.

I just thought that was cute that Publisher's Weekly thinks my
publisher has a strong gambling line but Alan Shoonmaker doesn't think
so.

How big is my dick?

Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 5:30:37 PM4/6/01
to
Here's a link for a publisher's weekly story about the new owner of
Lyle Stuart. As you can tell from the story, gamling is a new line
for this publisher.

http://www.publishersweekly.com/index_articles/20010205_94235.asp

You really should learn to do your homework, Alan. Maybe invest a
little time into learning something about the publishing business.


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 5:37:04 PM4/6/01
to
Another publisher's weekly article. This one indicates some
protectionsI have in my contract that someone who signs a contract
with 2+2, giving them copyright to the book, probably would not have.

It's why NWU, who was involved in the Carol Bankruptcy court
proceedings suggests that a writer never sign an all rights contract,
or a contract transferring copywrite or a work-for-hire contract.

NWU suggest that writers not sign the contract offered by 2+2.

Just something to think about when comparing publishers.


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Steve Jewett

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 10:53:20 PM4/6/01
to
After reading all these posts, I feel like I have been transported
back to my grade school playground and am watching two
6 year olds calling each other names.

I doubt I'll ever undertand the ego's of you creative types,
whether you're an actor ,a writer an artist or whatever.

In almost every instance, criticizing a competitor is
counterproductive.

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 6, 2001, 8:05:40 PM4/6/01
to
On Sat, 07 Apr 2001 02:53:20 GMT, fla...@bellsouth.net (Steve Jewett)
wrote:

>After reading all these posts, I feel like I have been transported
>back to my grade school playground and am watching two
>6 year olds calling each other names.

LOL

I know.

>
>I doubt I'll ever undertand the ego's of you creative types,
>whether you're an actor ,a writer an artist or whatever.

I'm sure my ego is involved a little bit, But, I'm pretty sure not
nearly as much as you think.

>
>In almost every instance, criticizing a competitor is
>counterproductive.

I know. I agree the whole things is really silly and that includes my
part also.

But, isn't at least part of it funny?


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

HrgSmes

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 1:24:04 AM4/7/01
to
Hey, and you know what, piss on Shakespeare, too.

Sir Francis Bacon

iamnotspamsamiam

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 5:23:27 AM4/7/01
to
I've never read your book, but it's a good thing you have a editor
Gary!

>My previous comments where
>about his book, not him

>I think the last time I said somelthing about his book I said

>Howver, I've recently

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 8:25:41 AM4/7/01
to
On Sat, 07 Apr 2001 02:23:27 -0700, iamnotspamsamiam <sp...@hormel.com>
wrote:

>I've never read your book, but it's a good thing you have a editor
>Gary!
>

That's why the bankruptcy was good -- I got two editors that way. I
think I needed them.


>>My previous comments where
>>about his book, not him
>
>>I think the last time I said somelthing about his book I said
>
>>Howver, I've recently
>
>>As you can tell from the story, gamling is a new
>
>
>

Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 9:38:28 AM4/7/01
to
On 05 Apr 2001 15:21:09 GMT, alannsch...@cs.com
(Alannschoonmaker) wrote:



>
>The gambling world has a simple expression: "Put up or shut up." I'll bet you
>any amount you like up to $25,000 (which we must put in "escrow") that my sales
>exceed yours.

LOL
ROFLMAO

I was bored this morning and took a look at the BN website. Take a
look at the sales ranking of this book ---

http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=57E3AXZQDP&mscssid=XVR8FS7EMK068P86V703RQ3F9S133RDD&isbn=0818406054

Realize that although they say it will ship in 1-2 weeks, that's based
on a projected publication date -- the book doesn't actually exist.

Now look at this other book, that's been in print for a year or so.

http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=57E3AXZQDP&mscssid=XVR8FS7EMK068P86V703RQ3F9S133RDD&isbn=1880685256

You're right, Alan. Your book has sold more than mine.

LOL


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 11:13:21 AM4/7/01
to
On Sat, 07 Apr 2001 14:43:24 GMT, to...@svanstrom.com (Tony L.
Svanstrom) wrote:

>The Psychology of Poker 
>Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D
>sales rank: 40,011
>
>The Complete Book of Hold 'EM Poker: A Comprehensive Guide to Playing
>and Winning
>Gary Carson
>sales rank: 40,635

All such book figures by internet book sales ranking is
pretty inaccurate- an inexact science at best- and not
really indicative of much at all. (With the exception of
books ranked, say, 1st in the country, or 4th, etc). To see
how misleading these figures can be, take any two books
and check their sales ranking on Barnes & Noble, and then
go do the same thing on Amazon.com and compare figures
-- note the huge discrepancies that sometimes exist.
Because of the different ways the numbers are arrived at
(due to distribution, reserved-for-returns, when listed, when
where available, etc), such sales ranking figures are best
viewed as just a rough guide.
Wayno


Lee Munzer

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 11:40:36 AM4/7/01
to

"Gary Carson" <garyc...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3ace1f15....@news.mindspring.com...

No, I haven't thought much about catalysts for book sales and the publishing
business is not one of my areas of knowledge, so I was just commenting on
Patrick's visibility factor leading to sales ... his knowledge could not.

Lee

Lee Munzer

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 11:44:26 AM4/7/01
to

"iamnotspamsamiam" <sp...@hormel.com> wrote in message
news:itvOOnkGy6bEs5...@4ax.com...

LOL. I was in PD's office a few months ago watching our former editor pull
her hair out and wear her red pencil out as she ripped article after article
apart (not mine of course cause I right good :<).

Lee

Lee Munzer

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 11:55:31 AM4/7/01
to

"Tony L. Svanstrom" wrote:

> The Psychology of Poker
> Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D
> sales rank: 40,011
>
> The Complete Book of Hold 'EM Poker: A Comprehensive Guide to Playing
> and Winning
> Gary Carson
> sales rank: 40,635
>
>

> Gary, if you get a Ph.D maybe you too can get to 40.011:th place. ;)

To back up Wayno's point, bn.com says, "Customers who bought Gary's book
also bought:
- Chicken Soup for the Sports Fan's Soul:
- Hawk: Occupation Skateboarder, Tony Hawk,Sean Mortimer"

Lee

timmer

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 12:31:02 PM4/7/01
to
Lee Munzer wrote:

> LOL. I was in PD's office a few months ago watching our former editor pull
> her hair out and wear her red pencil out as she ripped article after article
> apart (not mine of course cause I right good :<).
>
> Lee

u so funny .... ha !

timmer
study, play, analyze, repeat....

Barbara Yoon

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 12:37:17 PM4/7/01
to
Alannschoonmaker:
> I ignored Gary's attacks for months. ...but Gary was clearly
> engaged in a vendetta... After more than five attacks, I responded.

For those of us who are trying to make sense of this, but who are
unfamiliar with these "attacks," please post the text of some of them,
so we can see for ourselves... Thanks...

Barbara Yoon

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 12:38:20 PM4/7/01
to

Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 12:57:09 PM4/7/01
to
On Sat, 07 Apr 2001 16:31:02 GMT, timmer <timme...@earthlink.net>
wrote:


>u so funny .... ha !
>
>timmer
>study, play, analyze, repeat....

I'm worried about timmer.
He seems to be going thru a minimalist phase.


Boojumhunter

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 1:04:59 PM4/7/01
to

Gary Carson wrote:
>


>
> But, isn't at least part of it funny?

I've had a blast reading this thread. Funniest stuff I've read in a
long time. Reminds me of two novices going on tilt.

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 3:58:01 PM4/7/01
to
On Sat, 7 Apr 2001 12:37:17 -0400, "Barbara Yoon" <by...@erols.com>
wrote:

I think my comment in this thread about his lack of hair and limp dick
would qualify, Barbara. But, that was after this thread started. I
don't know what the five prior to this thread are.

Him being a psycholgist, and being able to predict human behavior and
all, maybe he'd included those two.

Maybe the third one was calling him a psychologist.

I'm sure the fourth and five will be along shortly.


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Badger

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 5:56:13 PM4/7/01
to
"Gary Carson" <garyc...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3acf173b....@news.mindspring.com...

> I was bored this morning and took a look at the BN website. Take a
> look at the sales ranking of this book ---
>
>
http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=57E3AXZQDP&
mscssid=XVR8FS7EMK068P86V703RQ3F9S133RDD&isbn=0818406054
>
> Realize that although they say it will ship in 1-2 weeks, that's based
> on a projected publication date -- the book doesn't actually exist.
>
> Now look at this other book, that's been in print for a year or so.
>
>
http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=57E3AXZQDP&
mscssid=XVR8FS7EMK068P86V703RQ3F9S133RDD&isbn=1880685256
>
> You're right, Alan. Your book has sold more than mine.

Pretty funny, the race is on, but...

Nice cover, but yuck on the spelling of "Hold' Em". And then the title is
awful. It's not the complete book of Holdem poker. It's the complete book
of Texas Holdem poker, not Omaha Holdem or Pineapple Holdem.
--
Steve Badger
http://www.playwinningpoker.com


Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 6:02:50 PM4/7/01
to
On Sat, 07 Apr 2001 21:56:13 GMT, "Badger"
<PlayWinningPoker(NOSPAM)@earthlink.net> wrote:

>"Gary Carson" <garyc...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:3acf173b....@news.mindspring.com...
>

>Nice cover, but yuck on the spelling of "Hold' Em". And then the title is
>awful. It's not the complete book of Holdem poker. It's the complete book
>of Texas Holdem poker, not Omaha Holdem or Pineapple Holdem.
>--
>Steve Badger
>http://www.playwinningpoker.com

I know. I didn't do the cover. I didn't do the title. And, I
actually didn't do the spelling of Hold'em either.

Maybe if I'd had a professional editor like Alan did those things
would have turned out differently.


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Bill

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 6:40:14 PM4/7/01
to

"Barbara Yoon" <by...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:9anfq2$gf0$2...@bob.news.rcn.net...
----------------------------------------

My guess is it's the "attacks" on his publisher that has his shorts in a
knot. He is joining the battle in support of his friend - "your enemy is my
enemy" sort of thing. Schoonmaker's "response" to Gary Carson doesn't seem
to be related to anything recent - it certainly wasn't part of an on-going
thread. Schoonmaker should provide the latest post by Gary (along with the
date) - not just ANY post either, the one that forced his response.

Whether or not this was Schoonmaker's intention, he has taken the spotlight
off of Malmuth's arrogant deletion of Abdul's post - something even Sklansky
wasn't able to do.

Bill Pitcher

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 8:25:33 PM4/7/01
to
On Sat, 7 Apr 2001 16:40:14 -0600, "Bill" <bpit...@cablerocket.com>
wrote:


>Whether or not this was Schoonmaker's intention, he has taken the spotlight
>off of Malmuth's arrogant deletion of Abdul's post - something even Sklansky
>wasn't able to do.
>

I'm pretty sure he was egged on by Mason. The stuff he said about my
not being able to get a publisher was something no one had said before
other than Mason. Most people knew it wasnt true and ignored it, so I
assume Alan made those statements only becuase he'd recently heard
them from Mason.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Alan really is stupid. But, I think he's just
gullible and was egged on by Mason


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

Paul Gennaro

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 10:40:33 PM4/7/01
to
I heard Patrick is coming out with a new series.
"So You Wannabe A Used Car Salesman"

Should be good. I'm sure he knows his topic.

-Paul

"Mason Malmuth" <masonm...@twoplustwo.com> wrote in message
news:3ACD8618...@twoplustwo.com...
> I can't say for sure but I believe that Patrick's sales figures are far
lower than you
> think. There are two reasons I believe this. First, if you go to either
Amazon.com or
> Barnes & Noble.com and look at sales rank numbers of his titles, you will
see that
> they are very high which reflect poor sales. Second, I have been told that
his company
> went bankrupt. To be fair, I'm not sure that is the case, but we use to
occasionally
> hear from them and we haven't heard from them in years.
>
> MM
>
> greatbrit wrote:
>
> > MichaelBadeaux wrote:
> >
> > > carson, is that the best you can do? I mean you talk a bunch of
crapola,
> > > badmouthing Schoonmaker like you are some sort of GOD, and all you can
do is
> > > try to make some sort of comparison between him and John Patrick? Any
poker
> > > player worth a tenth of his salt will be able to tell within two
sentences that
> > > Patrick's books are written for morons, by a moron....
> >
> > The way I read Gary's response, that was his whole point, i.e. that the
moron John
> > Patrick has sold many more books than any of the reputable poker
writers. He was
> > responding to Alan Schoonmaker's asinine argument that Alan's book must
be better
> > than Gary's because he has had sold more books than Gary has.
> >
> > Paul
> > not afraid to use dangling participles.
>


Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 10:51:14 PM4/7/01
to
On Sat, 7 Apr 2001 19:40:33 -0700, "Paul Gennaro"
<pgen...@pacbell.net> wrote:

>I heard Patrick is coming out with a new series.
>"So You Wannabe A Used Car Salesman"
>
>Should be good. I'm sure he knows his topic.
>

I'm waiting for his "So you wanna be a psychologist" series.


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

greatbrit

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 11:35:56 PM4/7/01
to
"Tony L. Svanstrom" wrote:

> The Psychology of Poker
> Alan N. Schoonmaker, Ph.D
> sales rank: 40,011
>
> The Complete Book of Hold 'EM Poker: A Comprehensive Guide to Playing
> and Winning
> Gary Carson
> sales rank: 40,635

This is much too close to call, does anyone know the count procedure? Do they
count books bought by pregnant people, people named Chad, and people with
dimples?

Paul

Paul Gennaro

unread,
Apr 7, 2001, 11:54:45 PM4/7/01
to

"Gary Carson" <garyc...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3acfd202...@news.mindspring.com...

This just cracked me up.
You really are a smart ass like they say. :-)


-Paul

PS: and you didn't misspell anything. :-)


Barbara Yoon

unread,
Apr 8, 2001, 12:50:15 AM4/8/01
to
Gary Carson:
> I'm pretty sure [Alan Schoonmaker, Ph.D.] was egged on by Mason.

> The stuff he said about my not being able to get a publisher was
> something no one had said before other than Mason. Most people
> knew it wasnt true and ignored it, so I assume Alan made those
> statements only becuase he'd recently heard them from Mason.
> Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Alan really is stupid. But, I think he's
> just gullible and was egged on by Mason

I'm not usually in such agreement with RGP's cantankerous curmudgeon
Gary Carson, but his theory above really does make a lot of sense...
...unless Dr. Schoonmaker here can show something to the contrary...

Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 8, 2001, 12:49:23 AM4/8/01
to
On Sat, 7 Apr 2001 20:54:45 -0700, "Paul Gennaro"
<pgen...@pacbell.net> wrote:

>
>"Gary Carson" <garyc...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:3acfd202...@news.mindspring.com...
>> On Sat, 7 Apr 2001 19:40:33 -0700, "Paul Gennaro"
>> <pgen...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>> >I heard Patrick is coming out with a new series.
>> >"So You Wannabe A Used Car Salesman"
>> >
>> >Should be good. I'm sure he knows his topic.
>> >
>> I'm waiting for his "So you wanna be a psychologist" series.
>>

>This just cracked me up.

Thank you.

>You really are a smart ass like they say. :-)

Hey. Watch that.

>
>PS: and you didn't misspell anything. :-)

I had Mason check it before I posted it.

Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

res07anz

unread,
Apr 8, 2001, 3:27:32 AM4/8/01
to
I was sort of intrigued by the list of books listed as "bn.com customers who
bought this book also bought: "

For one book it says they bought:

Zen and the Art of Poker: Timeless Secrets to Transform Your Game, Larry W.
Phillips
The Theory of Poker, David Sklansky
Gambling Theory and Other Topics, Mason Malmuth,Foreword by David Sklansky
Inside the Poker Mind, John Feene, Ph.D
Poker for Dummies, Richard D. Harroch,Lou Krieger

The people that bought the other book bought:

Chicken Soup for the Sports Fan's Soul: 101 Stories of Insight, Inspiration
and Laughter from the World of Sports, Jack Canfield,Chrissy Donnelly,Mark
Victor Hansen,Jim Tunney,Mark Donnelly
Dave Pelz's Putting Bible: The Complete Guide to Mastering the Green, Dave
Pelz,With James A. Frank


Hawk: Occupation Skateboarder, Tony Hawk,Sean Mortimer

Take Me out to the Ballpark: An Illustrated Tour of Baseball Parks past and
Present, Josh Leventhal
Take Me out to the Ballpark: An Illustrated Tour of Baseball Parks past and
Present, Josh Leventhal

Is that weird, or what?

At Amazon, the people that shopped for one of the books also shopped for:
Customers who shopped for this item also shopped for these items:

Texas Hold'em Poker Series by G. Ed Conly
Serious Poker by Daniel Kimberg
Intelligent Poker by Sam Braids
The Winner's Guide to Casino Poker by Edwin Silberstang


And for the other book:

Inside the Poker Mind: Essays on Hold 'em and General Poker by John Feeney
Ph.D., John Feeney
Zen and the Art of Poker : Timeless Secrets to Transform Your Game by Larry
W. Phillips
Poker Tournament Strategies by Sylvester Suzuki, Paula Cizmar
Poker Essays by Mason Malmuth


The Amazon references make better sense, at least to my untrained eye,
although it seems odd that none of the "other people" happened to shop for
any of the same books. It seems to me that if you were looking for poker
books you'd turn up at least ONE book in common no matter which one of the
books you started out looking at, unless the casino hucksters or the
snake-oil-selling con men have something to do with the way the book-sellers
display other titles you might like.

"Badger" <PlayWinningPoker(NOSPAM)@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:12Mz6.14102$Kr1.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

foldem

unread,
Apr 8, 2001, 3:35:11 AM4/8/01
to
On 05 Apr 2001 15:21:09 GMT, alannsch...@cs.com
(Alannschoonmaker) wrote:

>For several months I have read your cheap shots at me, my book ("The Psychology
>of Poker"), and my publisher (Mason Malmuth). I ignored them, but you've done
>it too often.

This has been the best thread in months, started by a guy who
professes not to read RGP than complains about being "attacked".

Let me make it simple, so you can understand it Alan: I own both
books, yours and Gary's.

Your book sucks. Gary's doesn't.

That doesn't mean anything about either of you personally. Just what
I thought about your respective books.

Grow up.


Best,

Peter

Chuck Humphrey

unread,
Apr 8, 2001, 9:56:59 AM4/8/01
to
And, how about Omaha Hold 'em, Steve.

Chuck Humphrey
Hump...@TOCpoker.com

On Sat, 07 Apr 2001 21:56:13 GMT, "Badger"
<PlayWinningPoker(NOSPAM)@earthlink.net> wrote:

Chuck Humphrey
Hump...@TOCpoker.com

Lee Munzer

unread,
Apr 8, 2001, 10:51:39 AM4/8/01
to

Barbara Yoon:

For those of us who are trying to make sense of this, but who are unfamiliar
with these "attacks," please post the text of some of them, so we can see
for ourselves... Thanks...

Gary Carson:


I think my comment in this thread about his lack of hair and limp dick would

qualify ...

Hmm, I was unaware you two had previous, personal contact.

Lee

Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips

unread,
Apr 8, 2001, 1:04:09 PM4/8/01
to
On Sun, 08 Apr 2001 07:27:32 GMT, "res07anz" <res0...@gte.net> wrote:

>I was sort of intrigued by the list of books listed as "bn.com customers who
>bought this book also bought: "
>
>For one book it says they bought:
>
>Zen and the Art of Poker: Timeless Secrets to Transform Your Game, Larry W.
>Phillips
>The Theory of Poker, David Sklansky
>Gambling Theory and Other Topics, Mason Malmuth,Foreword by David Sklansky
>Inside the Poker Mind, John Feene, Ph.D
>Poker for Dummies, Richard D. Harroch,Lou Krieger
>
>The people that bought the other book bought:
>
>Chicken Soup for the Sports Fan's Soul: 101 Stories of Insight, Inspiration
>and Laughter from the World of Sports, Jack Canfield,Chrissy Donnelly,Mark
>Victor Hansen,Jim Tunney,Mark Donnelly
>Dave Pelz's Putting Bible: The Complete Guide to Mastering the Green, Dave
>Pelz,With James A. Frank
>Hawk: Occupation Skateboarder, Tony Hawk,Sean Mortimer
>Take Me out to the Ballpark: An Illustrated Tour of Baseball Parks past and
>Present, Josh Leventhal
>Take Me out to the Ballpark: An Illustrated Tour of Baseball Parks past and
>Present, Josh Leventhal
>
>Is that weird, or what?


This is probably a comment on "pre-orders" for the latter book
(where sales are being assigned- for the moment- to a non-specific
general entertainment category), while the other book is already
established within a specific genre and has a track record within that
genre. Just guessing tho. But it's another example of why this stuff
is an unreliable measure of anything. This is especially true when it
comes to the sales ranking numbers. For instance, a book could be
ranked 7,043 on Amazon and 69,988 on Barnes & Noble. Or a book could
be ranked different from day to day on the same system- being 9,000
one day and 34,000 the next. And so on. Anything that is "all over
the map" like this ought to be an immediate tip-off that it is
unreliable as a measure. For this reason, if a 'pissing contest' is
going to be held, I wouldn't use this as a guide. Better to be safe
than sorry: get out the ruler.
Wayno


Gary Carson

unread,
Apr 8, 2001, 1:11:25 PM4/8/01
to
On Sun, 08 Apr 2001 17:04:09 GMT, Larr...@charter.net (Larry W.
(Wayno) Phillips) wrote:

>On Sun, 08 Apr 2001 07:27:32 GMT, "res07anz" <res0...@gte.net> wrote:
>

>
> This is probably a comment on "pre-orders" for the latter book
>(where sales are being assigned- for the moment- to a non-specific
>general entertainment category), while the other book is already
>established within a specific genre and has a track record within that
>genre. Just guessing tho.

More likely it's that whoever bought my book (no reason to think it's
more than one person) is named Mason Malmuth who's said he doesn't
read many poker books anymore, sticking to only the good ones.

At least that's my interpretation.


Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com

jimdh...@webtv.net

unread,
Apr 8, 2001, 2:10:19 PM4/8/01
to
Barbara, please dont encourage them :-)

Between this battle of the authors and that one "doogle" character, the
great posts on this board fly off into cyber space at the rate of 2-300
per day.....Jim

David Baugh

unread,
Apr 9, 2001, 11:23:42 AM4/9/01
to
You know, it really does grow tiresome reading a POKER newsgroup and having to
get through the hundreds of posts concerning Gary Carson and his detractors and
the same for mason Malmuth and his detractors. Something to think about.

Dave

Eyewitness

unread,
Apr 9, 2001, 9:00:22 PM4/9/01
to
On Sat, 07 Apr 2001 20:35:56 -0700, greatbrit <pwes...@pacbell.net>
wrote:

I was in the process of counting, but they barred me.

"I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."
George W. Bush--Greater Nashua, N.H., Chamber of Commerce,
Jan. 27, 2000

0 new messages