GCA "Russ & Abdul discuss the Rule of 7"
RussGe...@aol.com
Subject: Rule of Seven (was Re: Barry Shulman editorial...)
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Newsgroups: rec.gambling.poker
Date: 2002-10-26 18:34:36 PST
"James L. Hankins" <jhan...@cox.net> writes:> I'd still like for
someone like Badger or Caro or Sklansky or Abdul, etc.,> to explain
Russ's "rule of seven" betting and whether it's valid.
ABDUL:An excellent limit hold'em player, Mike McClain, commented on
Russ'rule of seven, so you can look up his post in
groups.google.com,though he was pretty vague.
RUSS: I know Mike and he is indeed an excellent limit holdem player.
ABDUL:I read two rule of seven posts by Russ, and I discussed it with
another excellent limit hold'em player, Angelina. (I think Angelina is
a bit out of her element here, though, since she is accustomed to4-bet
caps heads up on-line.) We agree that Russ sounds like he is
experienced, and likely a superior limit hold'em player compared to a
lot of the folks who get labeled hold'em experts on the net.
RUSS: Likely a superior limit holdem player? I am a superior player
in all games. Thank you for the compliment though.
ABDUL:Here is the gist of the rule of 7... Russ assumes that you will
go 3bets on the flop pretty much as a given with any kind of hand or
draw.
RUSS: IT is the most common concept applied today. It is a standard
of play that is used. The Rule of 7 takes you past this concept,
providing
you can grasp it and apply it. This is the solution to the check, bet,
check-raise, re-raise, call concept. This destroys this concept.
ABDUL: Past, that, if you go up to 7 bets, you'll probably get to see
theriver card for no additional cost. So, that's four extra small
betsto play that way versus two big bets if you back off early and
callyour opponent on the turn and river, and that's the same cost.
RUSS: Correct
ABDUL:Here is the reality and how the rule of 7 attempts exploit
it...Action on the flop is "discounted" by higher stakes players.
Raises onthe flop heads up are almost negatively correlated with
handstrength. However, very large numbers of bets, like 7, are
generallyviewed as indicating extreme strength even on the flop. So,
you canbuy yourself a free card by going 7 bets on the flop, and
sometimesmake up a big bet on the river when you suck out.
RUSS: The "KEY WORD" here is generally. When everyone is GENERALLY
expecting
something, you have them brainwashed and guessing on your holdings. In
other
words, you control the betting, and will get your way.
ABDUL:Mostly Russ' rule of seven raises a lot of questions...
ABDUL:What happens when the out of position guy does not cooperate with
Russand backs off early on the flop, with the intention of either
bettingout or check-raising on the turn?
RUSS: I counter with, what happens when I have the nuts and he does
this?
I made it three bets to slow the action down, if the person checks, I
have
accomplished my objective. What happens when I have the nuts and he
does this?
As I have stated, this 3 betting thing is standard. Don't expect bets
on the turn,
as this concept was made to stop the action, which it does when the
person doesn't bet.
If he comes out betting, I raise, getting my free card on the river and
we still have
the same 7 bets in the pot, but with a different format. 7 one way, or
7 the other way,
they still add up to 7. The part is the deception and the fact those
not realizing
or being able to grasp this concept is this, the Rule of 7 has you
controlling the betting.
ABDUL:Similarly, when Russ is out of position, does he let himself
getsucker punched by the rule of seven (giving a free card on the
turn)?
RUSS: Can't happen as I apply the Rule of 7. Certainly I will run into
the nuts on
occasions, as certainly as they will. One thing is certain, I will
extract FULL VALUE
while my opposition may not or will not. The Rule of 7 is not for
marginal hands, but for large ones.
Marginal hands are used for advertising and diversion to get the bets
way up when you indeed have
a very strong hand. The Rule is applied with other abilities, something
SUPERIOR players
possess. Obviously the term SUPERIOR means better than excellent. This
means knowing and
reading players in this category far better than they read you. This is
why you have these terms.
ABDUL:What happens when the out of position guy 8-bets Russ?
RUSS: When this happens, this is either another superior player I am
facing,
or just another excellent player I am facing. Being the SUPERIOR player
using this concept, I can
get rid of my hand losing the 7 bets, knowing I would of lost this
anyway I played the hand, or I
may have the REAL GOODS and punish the person to the maximum. Excellent
players don't make this
play without a giant hand, though not always the nuts. The reason is if
they did, they would be
categorized as being superior players. When facing superior players
with this concept, both know
after the 7 bets what can happen. This is what you earn as anyone can
make the 7 bets.
By knowing the class of your opposition, you also know you have outs,
for when facing these
players,both of you know the
bluffing potential of the other. The one who reads the other best will
prevail.
ABDUL:Doesn't he lose when a flush draw 6-bets him on the flop
(notunusual), he 7-bets with his modest pair, takes free card on the
turn,and then the missed flush draw fires on the river, putting Russ on
abigger missed flush draw? (I assume I'm inferring correctly thatthere
Russ will fold second pair good kicker or top pair weak kicker.I'm not
saying that's a good play... I'm saying I think that's whatRuss is
saying.)
RUSS: This is not what I am saying. Besides the Rule of 7 doesn't apply
to drawing hands only.
In theory, a calling hand from the beginning is needed to apply the
rule of 7. I have given examples
here of both good hands and weak hands. The theory behind the Rule of 7
is to get people playing a
style when they don't know what to do. It is hard for even excellent
players to grasp this concept.
The hand I first described was Johnny Chan going 9 bets. All he had was
bottom set against a 3 flush
board. Perhaps he will explain why he did this. But he did do this, and
this is correct. I have
never stated Johnny Chan isn't a superior player, yet he adapted this
rule of 7 to the hand.
In most probability he would of checked the hand on the river.
ABDUL:I didn't like the example in Russ' second rule of seven post.
Youhave K9s and go 7 bets on a flop of T92 with two of your suit?
Good,but few players would fail to do so, never mind the rule ofseven.
K9s here is a favorite over AT, JJ, and QQ. K9s here is afavorite over
AA when is of other suits - a slight dog againsta random AA. Jam the
flop while you still have your edge and thenconsider taking a free card
on the turn... that's the only way to playit.
RUSS: You may not of liked the example,but the fact remains I wasn't
drawing dead no matter
what the opposition held. The hand was a very good example as I had
outs no matter what, and
not just a few. The crux of this is this, it pays to advertise. Just
like the laws of Physics:
for every action there is an equal and positive reaction.I think this
is correct. Just as ONE HAND
doesn't mean much, image means an awful lot. Most superior players are
hard to distinguish,
at least to the non professional. The excellent professionals know
these players because they have
very difficult troubles reading them. The excellent players never
really know where they stand in
the hand unless holding the nuts, which we all know how hard it is in
holdem. The fact
excellent players have difficult times with superior players is these
players control the betting.
This is what SUPERIOR players do. Most will slow down the opposition
when they have the worst of it
speend them up when they have the best of it. Things will equal out as
one hand doesn't mean much
during a session of limit poker when heads-up. You can never be 100%
correct on when your hand is best.
But you can always play or execute the playing of the hand correctly.
Just like other venues in
life, execution of the way you play is what counts. No one can make the
correct play all the time.
However, they can always play the hand correctly.
ABDUL:Russ' first example was more unique to the rule of 7. There
Russsuggests 7-betting with JT on a board of T92, then taking a free
card,and then presumably mucking on the river when he gets bet into
thereif unimproved. I think those lay-downs of top pair when getting
9:1odds to see the showdown are going to catch up to him. If he
doesn'tintend to make those lay-downs, then he needs to back off his
statementthat it doesn't cost extra bets to use the rule of seven.
RUSS: Though you may think the first example was more unique, they are
all examples. They are
done to exploit situations found later on, when holding very strong
hands and having the opposition
go to war. In theory, I don't believe in being bluffed often. I try to
portray an image as being
NON BLUFFABLE. This image is really beneficial in reality. Having an
image you can't be bluffed,
forces others to change styles and allows for you to steal. Being NON
BLUFFABLE or having the
image are two totally different things. Have you ever faced a SUPERIOR
calling station,one that
picks off every bluff you try, with seemingly nothing and when you hold
the nuts, the person folds,
having you wish he had the nothing then. It remains who reads who
better in poker. Mano vs. Mano.
I will lay down hands on a drop of a pin with 7 bets in the pot. I will
also attack and re-raise
with a K high if I suspect it is best
ABDUL:I'll reserve making any final conclusions at this time, given all
the open questions.
-- Abdul
Mort
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San Te of the 36 Chambers
> of play that is used. The Rule of 7 takes you past this concept,
> providing
> you can grasp it and apply it. This is the solution to the check, bet,
> check-raise, re-raise, call concept. This destroys this concept.
Why is this the standard concept rather than bet, raise, re-raise? Or the
check, bet, check-raise, re-raise, re-raise?
Is check-raising in a heads-up situation the preferred method of
initiating action?
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Px2z7
<RussGe...@aol.com> wrote:
>Russ's "rule of seven" betting and whether it's valid...
More repeat dribble from the master take up the ass dribbler himself.
Russ Georgiev.
John Forsberg
what happens.