yes, raise with AA UTG!
Paul Phillips
as it turned out. At the Bellagio tournament one of the key hands in
finally getting me off of death's door on day two was this one. I had
played and won several recent hands, including the most recent one, and
probably looked like I was about to try to run over the table.
Then I was dealt AA UTG. I immediately tripled the blind just as I
had the previous hand -- the "immediate" part being significant because
usually I think for a while before playing a hand UTG, but I wanted to
send the vibe that I was just out there firing until someone played back
at me. I was called by the button and then also by Maureen Feduniak in
the small blind.
The flop came Q85, all hearts, and I had the ace of hearts. Maureen
came out betting with a good sized bet! With very high confidence I put
her on AQ and thought I had her drawing close to stone dead, but I knew
the most likely way to double up here was to push it in now and have it
look like the naked ace of hearts, rather than get tricky and risk an
action-killer falling on the turn. So I again acted immediately and
pushed it all-in, another 20K on top of the roughly 20K in the pot.
The button folded, and Maureen thought for a long time and finally called
with AQ. It was that incredibly rare and joyful tournament situation,
where you can get all the money in with a 14-1 favorite. That double-up
was probably the most important hand I played before my big suckout with
JJ vs. AA 11-handed, because it let me play some real poker instead of
just moving all-in. Mostly what it did was let me fold hands when I didn't
like the situation, and I folded in a lot of tough situations because I
didn't want to be the second man into a raised pot with a short stack,
even though I thought I was >50% to have the best hand.
The toughest of all those was at four tables. Meng La was sitting on my
right with a stack about as short as mine, and every time it folded to him
he would put in a big raise. I gave it up every time, and then finally on
the last hand before the dinner break I got 66. He had raised to 10K and
I had about 40K total, as did he. I agonized for several minutes into the
dinner break and finally he started talking, and his talk convinced me that
he had me. I folded and he showed me JJ.
At that point I felt like I was charmed. Here's a can't-miss piece of
advice: when your opponent thinks UNDULY long and finally folds, DO NOT
SHOW HIM YOUR HAND IF IT WAS A GOOD FOLD. It is a mistake of nightmarish
proportions in the meta-game.
--
Paul Phillips | Burgundy makes you think of silly things;
Future Perfect | Bordeaux makes you talk about them,
Empiricist | and Champagne makes you do them.
i'll ship a pulp | -- brillat-savarin
Mark Rafn
>Mostly what it did was let me fold hands when I didn't
>like the situation, and I folded in a lot of tough situations because I
>didn't want to be the second man into a raised pot with a short stack,
>even though I thought I was >50% to have the best hand.
Hmm, doesn't this contradict your offer to gamb00l in the early stages of a
tournament? If by ">50% to have the best hand" you mean ">50% preflop pot
equity" aren't these the chances you're looking to take, at least as long as
you're looking to win rather than move up a few places?
If you really only mean ">50% to have the best hand", where you probably have
a slight favorite but face a significant risk that you're a huge dog, then
it's a clear fold early in the tourney too, I think.
I guess I'm asking your opinion of when the "take risks to collect chips"
imperative gets overtaken by the "survive to find great opportunies" strategy.
>The toughest of all those was at four tables. Meng La was sitting on my
>right with a stack about as short as mine, and every time it folded to him
>he would put in a big raise. I gave it up every time, and then finally on
>the last hand before the dinner break I got 66. He had raised to 10K and
>I had about 40K total, as did he. I agonized for several minutes into the
>dinner break and finally he started talking, and his talk convinced me that
>he had me. I folded and he showed me JJ.
A good fold because you had a read that indicated you were way behind.
If you'd been convinced that he had AKs, would you have called/raised with
your slight advantage?
--
Mark Rafn da...@dagon.net <http://www.dagon.net/>
P.S. Congratulations on ... well, all of 2003!
Paul Phillips
>Hmm, doesn't this contradict your offer to gamb00l in the early stages of a
>tournament?
It wasn't the early stages of the tournament. It was the very late stages.
The "early" part of a tournament is when much less than half the field has
been eliminated.
>I guess I'm asking your opinion of when the "take risks to collect chips"
>imperative gets overtaken by the "survive to find great opportunies" strategy.
The second quote isn't how I'd put it. I avoided those spots because
to take them would mean running the cards out, and I still had enough
chips to take pots without showdowns. If your table will allow it,
stealing your way upward is vastly preferable to putting your chips in
after a raiser and hoping to double up.
Also, let's be clear here that the hypotheticals that have been tossed
around regarding early coin flips involved the other guy showing his hand.
In real life people don't do that very often. Usually there is a degree
of uncertainty about where you stand, and there are hands that might
have you crushed.
A better example of "gambling" early might be calling all-in with a
draw when there is a lot of dead money in the pot. If you know you
can't be worse than 3-1 to win (e.g. nut flush draw vs. probable set)
then call if you're getting 3-1 and it's still very early.
>A good fold because you had a read that indicated you were way behind.
>If you'd been convinced that he had AKs, would you have called/raised with
>your slight advantage?
No; this situation is not at all similar to a first hand matchup. You
should not intentionally pursue an all-in coin flip as a short stack close
to the money when you still have enough chips to put in a real raise.
Rick Nebiolo
From reading this group of "NL Holdem Tournament Aces Open Limping v
Raising" threads the gist seems to be:
- you want to see flops cheaply with small to medium pairs because of
the enormous post flop equity when you flop a set when you and your
aggressive opponent(s) are deep.
- when game conditions (stack sizes, aggressiveness/skill of your
opponents, etc.) merit you should open limp (over folding or making a
"standard" 3 to 4 times the BB raise) with small to medium pairs to
avoid playing them for a relatively big pot out of position.
- often open limp with aces to protect open limps with small to
medium pairs.
Is this enough protection? Let's say small to medium pairs are
roughly deuces thru tens. You are dealt nine times as many of these
small to medium pairs as pocket aces. It appears you would need more
"covering hands" for your strategy to be effective. By using the word
"effective" I'm "divorcing" your terrific results of the last few
years :).
Would it be reasonable to often open limp with additional hands such
as KK and perhaps AK suited? Using both gives you ten additional
combinations. Now every open limp with a small to medium pair has a
very strong "covering hand" 23% of the time as opposed to 10% of the
time. This would provide far more "protection" for the vital small
pairs as it increases the risk for an opponent raising your open
limps. I'm assuming you would be willing to go all in pre flop with
KK and perhaps call or go all in with AK suited if most opponents
raised you behind.
BTW, I'm a mid limit "mostly holdem player" just starting out in NL
and PL and enjoy reading your threads of "unconventional wisdom".
Regards,
Rick
Robert W. Rooney
without a showdown, then you want to raise because they are probably
starting to wonder if you really have all the cards you are representing,
then your opponents would be MORE suspicious of a limp than a raise.
_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com
Paul Phillips
Rick Nebiolo <ricknebiolo...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>It appears you would need more "covering hands" for your strategy
>to be effective.
Yes, I also sometimes open-limp with a wide variety of other hands,
including AKs, smaller suited connectors, and any pocket pair.
If you are confident in your post-flop play and your stack is much
bigger than the blinds, this is not terribly expensive. It's very
game condition and image dependent.
One hand that I particularly like limping up front is JJ because it has
such situational value; it can be a monster or garbage, but when you're
first to act you don't yet know which. By limping with it you can sit
back cheaply and see what the rest of the table does. If it limps
around, great -- because JJ benefits dramatically from seeing the flop.
If one or more players raise, you can fold, call, or play back depending
on the raiser and the stacks.
The year that I had my AA cracked back to back in the WSOP, I actually
made a bit of a comeback, but then busted myself because daniel limped
with JJ in first position and I moved all-in in the small blind thinking
he couldn't take any heat. That was educational.
>I'm assuming you would be willing to go all in pre flop with
>KK and perhaps call or go all in with AK suited if most opponents
>raised you behind.
It depends. I usually wouldn't call with AKs there because I don't
like playing AKs out of position in raised pots, so depending on my
read of the action it's more likely raise or fold.
--
Paul Phillips | Must I accept the axiom of choice?
Moral Alien |
Empiricist |
all hip pupils! |----------* http://www.improving.org/paulp/ *----------