An Open Letter to Daniel Negreanu
Howard Lederer
I would first like to say that, in the past, I have always rooted for you.
I thought you had the kind of engaging personality and charisma that the
game of poker needs. Sadly, however, you have allowed your desperate need
for public recognition, both for you and your close friends, to turn you
into a mean and vindictive person. You try your best to keep this from you
adoring fans, but tourney regulars know better.
My motivations for making this post are many, and I think I should detail
them now. As most RGPers know, your post from a couple of days ago was
about my sister Annie Duke. You claim you wanted to keep her name out of
it. This is a complete lie. First, you knew I would figure out who the
post was about. You also knew that a lot of other high limit players would
be able to figure it out. You thought it would be cute to continue your
smear campaign against my sister just under the radar. Then in one of your
follow up posts to my "Grow up" thread, you wrote, "The same person that
will tell a player NOT to educate the other players, then five minutes later
ask the player she told not to say anything a poker question?" The use of
the female pronoun seems intentional. I can only conclude that you really
did want to publicly embarrass her. But this post is only a culmination of
a summer full of public attacks on my sister, a campaign that has hurt her
deeply. My sister has been inclined to not fight back. But I can not sit
idly by any longer.
You have also made it clear that you are willing to damage your own
reputation to bring Annie down. I will get into your reasons for this
later. I know that if I can diminish you in any way in the eyes of the
public, you will feel personally diminished. Sad but true.
For me, violence is not an option, so the only thing I can do to make you
pay something for the pain you have caused my sister is to make the public
aware of your true nature. I spoke to you privately about this issue, but
the smear campaign has only intensified. Also, though I admit that I was
extremely steamed when I made my post two days ago, the last couple of days
have only brought me down to a simmer. I need to make this post to feel
better. I don't like feeling angry all the time.
Your reasons for going after my sister's reputation as a poker player are
obvious to anyone who knows you and many others who don't. First, you
simply feel that the only female poker player who deserves any media
attention is Jennifer Harman. Second, you just don't like my sister. There
is something about her personality that rubs you the wrong way. I can't
blame you for this and would never hold that against you. We all have those
people we just can't get along with.
Your obsession with the public's perception of Jennifer's place among the
top women players combined with your general dislike of Annie has caused you
to lose all objectivity where she is concerned. If we only look for the bad
in people, whether it be their conduct or their play, there will always be
something to find. Nobody is perfect. But this obsession is causing great
harm to Annie, and it needs to stop.
I could almost stomach the attacks on her play if that was all you had been
doing. But you have gotten really nasty and personal. You have been heard
at tournaments, where Annie is not present, referring to her as "Annie
Puke." You have also complained that she doesn't have any nice clothes and
she looks disgusting. I am sure your wardrobe would be just amazing after
going through four pregnancies in six years. This is grade school stuff on
your part, but it still hurts. When I ask your friends about why you have
gone berserk on this Annie thing, they just shake their heads and can't
really explain it. I would be surprised if any of your friends think this
has been a good thing for you to do.
I would not have had to make this post if you had been even a little
contrite in response to my post of two days ago. But, instead you showed
your true colors. Your first response to me, at 5:42 P.M., went like this:
"I just thought the post was funny. I didn't name any names did I? All
that stuff REALLY happened. If anything, it's a good advertisement for the
Bellagio game."
We now know this wasn't the real reason for your post. You didn't want your
adoring public to think that your post might have been mean spirited. But
you couldn't stand it and 16 minutes later you posted:
"One more thing 'the self proclaimed 'expert' deserves all the criticism the
expert gets. The expert, is the same person that routinely takes part in
all of the stupid conversation that goes on in those games. All of the,
'how bad does he play' talk. The expert deserves to hear some of that same
criticism. If the expert were a gentle, nice person who wasn't so rude and
obnoxious at the table, I never would have posted any of this stuff. The
expert, is the same person that will look at your hole cards when out of a
hand, but won't let you look at theirs. The same person that will tell a
player NOT to educate the other players, then five minutes later ask the
player she told not to say anything a poker question? The expert is a stuck
up bully, that deserves everything the expert dishes out, ten fold."
It was nice of you to call yourself on your own lie so quickly.
I have also noticed a pattern where outrageous behavior is OK if it is you
who does it. While drunk in a medium stakes poker game, you tried to snatch
a player's toupee off his head. You then told him that he should get it
washed. You now fondly recall this incident as funny, funny perhaps to you.
Your repeated comments calling Henry Nowakowski an idiot during your final
table WSOP web cast where uncalled for and colored by personal issues.
These are just two events, but they show that personal attacks aren't just
reserved for my sister. You seem to be able to justify any action toward
someone if you personally dislike that person. I find this part of your
personality quite distasteful.
I also find it amusing to see how creative you have gotten at trying to call
attention to your poker skills. You couldn't just come out and say, "Look
at me! I have won 7 tournaments this year in only 13 final tables." So you
did the next best thing. You wrote an analysis of the other top players,
with special attention to their finishing skills, hoping that your adoring
fans might look up your finishing record and drool. That these capsules
about your colleagues might upset some of them was of little consequence.
You'll do anything to further the Daniel legend.
I am not trying to change you with this post, as I will never again have
anything to do with you. I will, from now on, ignore you entire existence,
unless, of course I am trying to bust you at the poker table. You have
crossed the line, and I don't really care if you ever come back.
Howard Lederer
David Plastik
eleaticus
he wrote to Russ.
Eleaticus
"Howard Lederer" <how...@lvcm.com> wrote in message
news:6Oal9.81616$S32.5...@news2.west.cox.net...
James L. Hankins
Daniel in their posts here. Something tells me that Daniel and Annie had a
falling out over some specific thing that hasn't been made public here
(UB?); but now I hope Daniel decides to keep it that way.
"Howard Lederer" <how...@lvcm.com> wrote in message
news:6Oal9.81616$S32.5...@news2.west.cox.net...
Jackie Jr.
much different DN than the public.
Send that man AND his sister a drink, on me.
JJ
On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 05:07:14 GMT, "Howard Lederer" <how...@lvcm.com>
wrote:
freak_on_a_leash
"Jackie Jr." <apr...@thegrave.com> wrote in message
news:tvgapuoscadiq05ku...@4ax.com...
D
or discussed calmly and privately are instead made the subject of a public,
heated squabble. It's like kindergarten, only with bigger egos and an
expanded vocabulary.
As a neutral observer, I thought the only interesting thing about HL's post
is what he DIDN'T say. DN alleges that AD deserves the abuse because she:
a) is a self-proclaimed Omaha expert;
b) is arrogant/stuck up;
c) is a bully;
d) runs down other players behind their backs; and
e) engages in other petty, anti-social behavior at the table.
In defending his sister, HL doesn't refute a single one of these
accusations. For all I know, they may be truth or fiction, but let's
suppose they're true. If Phil Hellmuth can be taken to task for his bad
behavior, why should AD be immune from criticism? The fact that your family
still loves you is not a defense for obnoxious, childish behavior.
If everyone makes an effort to behave like polite adults, then maybe we can
all just get along.
"Howard Lederer" <how...@lvcm.com> wrote in message
news:6Oal9.81616$S32.5...@news2.west.cox.net...
Scott N
A Very articulate and well thought post in response to something He
has a problem with. No attacking, name calling, accusations, lay it
all on the table. Just what Usenet USED to be and what it was meant
to be.
Here here!
Scott N
Gary Carson
On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 05:07:14 GMT, "Howard Lederer" <how...@lvcm.com>
wrote:
Gary Carson
http:// garycarson.home.mindspring.com
Churk
>This is all amazingly petty. Things that should be laughed off or ignored
>or discussed calmly and privately are instead made the subject of a public,
>heated squabble. It's like kindergarten, only with bigger egos and an
>expanded vocabulary.
Agreed. The poker community (at least here in rgp) is incredibly
juvenile. It's almost embarrassing to watch.
Daniel Negreanu
>
> I would first like to say that, in the past, I have always rooted for you.
> I thought you had the kind of engaging personality and charisma that the
> game of poker needs. Sadly, however, you have allowed your desperate need
> for public recognition, both for you and your close friends, to turn you
> into a mean and vindictive person. You try your best to keep this from you
> adoring fans, but tourney regulars know better.
DANIEL:
Ok, 'tourney regulars?' Who exactly do you mean? Are you a tourney
regular?
>
> My motivations for making this post are many, and I think I should detail
> them now. As most RGPers know, your post from a couple of days ago was
> about my sister Annie Duke. You claim you wanted to keep her name out of
> it. This is a complete lie.
DANIEL:
Only by your posting, did her name become clear. Had you not
replied, the fact that I was referring to Annie's poor play on the
night would have been known to only a select few.
First, you knew I would figure out who the
> post was about.
DANIEL:
Of course, but you already knew how I felt about your sister. I
already told you that I didn't dislike you, but couldn't possibly deal
with the behaviour of your sister.
You were in my backyard after a party when I explained that to you.
Your response was simply,"That's Annie". A reasonable response coming
from her brother, that I understand, and don't blame you for. You
have virtually no choice but to love her- I on the other hand, have
every right and reason to think of her differently.
Eventually, I decided that if that's Annie, well then I'm gald to
hear it! If she was everthing I percieved her to be, and her only
brother admitted to those faults, then I wanted absolutely nothing to
do with her.
You also knew that a lot of other high limit players woul> be able to
figure it out. You thought it would be cute to continue your
> smear campaign against my sister just under the radar.
DANIEL:
Honestly, I didn't care that much. I knew all along what I was
risking by taking a stand against her, and was more than willing to
suffer the consequences, whatever they may be.
Then in one of your
> follow up posts to my "Grow up" thread, you wrote, "The same person that
> will tell a player NOT to educate the other players, then five minutes later
> ask the player she told not to say anything a poker question?" The use of
> the female pronoun seems intentional.
DANIEL:
I realize that, but I would swear that it was unintentional, not
like it matters much at this point. It was only your replies, that
prompted the obviousness of who the """expert""" was.
I can only conclude that you really
> did want to publicly embarrass her. But this post is only a culmination of
> a summer full of public attacks on my sister, a campaign that has hurt her
> deeply. My sister has been inclined to not fight back. But I can not sit
> idly by any longer.
DANIEL:
Not fight back??? Oh please, you must be joking. That's hardly
true, but I won't include examples that would 'out' innocent
bystanders just to prove my point. She has been doing her fair share
of smearing, and this I know for an absolute fact.
>
> You have also made it clear that you are willing to damage your own
> reputation to bring Annie down. I will get into your reasons for this
> later. I know that if I can diminish you in any way in the eyes of the
> public, you will feel personally diminished. Sad but true.
DANIEL:
I have made it clear for more than a year, that I will not sugarcoat
my feelings about anybody. If I don't like someone- they'll now. I'm
not interested in being a politician that puts on a happy face to get
elected. If I can't stand sonebody, I feel NO shame in letting
EVERYBODY know it. Of course, I'm the one who suffers the most from
theses stands, but as I've said before, I'm more than willing to deal
with the consequences.
>
> For me, violence is not an option, so the only thing I can do to make you
> pay something for the pain you have caused my sister is to make the public
> aware of your true nature.
DANIEL:
Violence is not an option for me either, but apparantly that's not
true of her husband who sent me a private e-mail.
> Your reasons for going after my sister's reputation as a poker
player are
> obvious to anyone who knows you and many others who don't. First, you
> simply feel that the only female poker player who deserves any media
> attention is Jennifer Harman.
DANIEL:
Not true in the least! A reporter asked me for names of SUCCESSFUL
female poker players in both tournaments and live play, and I replied
with Kathy Liebert for tournaments (the most successful female
tournament player 5 years running, and Jennifer Harman, the most
successful,side game player currently). I also included, Susie Issacs
(winner of two consecutive women's titles), Mimi Tran (an excellent
high stakes hold'em player and tournament player). If I included
Annie's name, I would have been lying.
Second, you just don't like my sister. There
> is something about her personality that rubs you the wrong way. I can't
> blame you for this and would never hold that against you. We all have those
> people we just can't get along with.
>
DANIEL:
This is true. From the day I met her when I was 22 years of age
playing at the 4 Queens. She went OUT OF HER WAY to ridicule me and
embarass me, despite the fact that she had no idea who I was. Calling
me 'cupboy', criticizing my play, and overall making me, and all
others not in the 'clique' feel unwelcome. Of course when I'd won
some tournaments her attitude changed towards me... BZZZZT, too late.
> Your obsession with the public's perception of Jennifer's place among the
> top women players combined with your general dislike of Annie has caused you
> to lose all objectivity where she is concerned.
DANIEL:
Obsession? Do YOU doubt the fact that she is the best female player
in the world? If you do you'd be lying. She is the best female
player I've ever seen. Allen Cunningham and Phil Ivey are the two
best young players I've ever seen. John Hennighan, when playing his
best, is the best player I've ever played with. Scotty Nguyen and John
Juanda, are the best pure tournament players I've ever seen. TJ
Cloutier, is the best no limit tournament player I've ever seen. Even
you Howatd, are one of the best short-handed hold'em players I've ever
played with.... These are not obsessions, they are opinions.
If we only look for the bad
> in people, whether it be their conduct or their play, there will always be
> something to find. Nobody is perfect. But this obsession is causing great
> harm to Annie, and it needs to stop.
DANIEL:
She's been causing harm to many (unchallenged) for years, and it's
about time somebody said something about it. Do you REALLY think I'm
alone in thinking that Annie is a horrible person to have in the poker
room? I'd hate to mention names as it's uncalled for, but clearly YOU
understand why she's so unbearable?
>
> I could almost stomach the attacks on her play if that was all you had been
> doing. But you have gotten really nasty and personal. You have been heard
> at tournaments, where Annie is not present, referring to her as "Annie
> Puke."
DANIEL:
Yes, and FOR THE RECORD, that name was originated by the MIRAGE
dealers years ago. It was later coined by Sam Grizzle, after he beat
her heads up and she cried to you on the phone about losing a hand she
was a favorite in (this part is all second hand, I wasn't there). The
Mirage dealers hated her so much, that they would routinely refer to
her as "Annie Puke".
You have also complained that she doesn't have any nice clothes and
> she looks disgusting.
DANIEL:
No, I complained that she wears the SAME dirty clothes, day in and
day out. That she wears no shoes and walks around the poker room, and
then sits on her dirty, sweaty feet in the Bellagio poker room. Other
people then have to sit on these chairs after she's stained them with
athlete's foot over several hours. There are dress codes for poker
rooms (no tank tops), well how much nastier can you get then urinated
foot sweat soaked into $2000 chairs???
I am sure your wardrobe would be just amazing after
> going through four pregnancies in six years.
DANIEL:
Well, I certainly wouldn't start picking the toejam from my feet and
handling the cards, even if I had 15 kids.
This is grade school stuff on
> your part, but it still hurts. When I ask your friends about why you have
> gone berserk on this Annie thing, they just shake their heads and can't
> really explain it. I would be surprised if any of your friends think this
> has been a good thing for you to do.
DANIEL:
I don't doubt it wasn't a 'good thing' for me to do. I'd likely be
much better off keeping my opinions to myself, and 'worrying' about
what others would think of me. I'm not worried. I am who I am, and
those who don't like it... well there is little I can, or would want
to do to change it.
>
> I would not have had to make this post if you had been even a little
> contrite in response to my post of two days ago. But, instead you showed
> your true colors. Your first response to me, at 5:42 P.M., went like this:
>
> "I just thought the post was funny. I didn't name any names did I? All
> that stuff REALLY happened. If anything, it's a good advertisement for the
> Bellagio game."
DANIEL:
Was it not? Did you read the four hands? If that wasn't a good
advertisement for the game, I don't know what is.
>
> We now know this wasn't the real reason for your post.
DANIEL:
Ok, got me there. Did you even hear what she did... that night
alone?? Do you have any clue how rude and obnoxious, and offensive
she was? Yeah, that was the real reason for my post. She behaved
just as she did when I first met her at the 4 Queens, only worse.
Completely out of line, on several occasions.
You didn't want your
> adoring public to think that your post might have been mean spirited.
DANIEL:
'They' have heard it all before, and at this point, I have very
little to hide. I am NOT a yes man, and I don't go with the flow.
When I see a bad apple, I say so- I don't let things like that slide.
But
> you couldn't stand it and 16 minutes later you posted:
>
> "One more thing 'the self proclaimed 'expert' deserves all the criticism the
> expert gets. The expert, is the same person that routinely takes part in
> all of the stupid conversation that goes on in those games. All of the,
> 'how bad does he play' talk. The expert deserves to hear some of that same
> criticism. If the expert were a gentle, nice person who wasn't so rude and
> obnoxious at the table, I never would have posted any of this stuff. The
> expert, is the same person that will look at your hole cards when out of a
> hand, but won't let you look at theirs. The same person that will tell a
> player NOT to educate the other players, then five minutes later ask the
> player she told not to say anything a poker question? The expert is a stuck
> up bully, that deserves everything the expert dishes out, ten fold."
>
> It was nice of you to call yourself on your own lie so quickly.
DANIEL:
What lie are you referring to? I stande behind everything I said in
this post.
>
> I have also noticed a pattern where outrageous behavior is OK if it is you
> who does it. While drunk in a medium stakes poker game, you tried to snatch
> a player's toupee off his head.
DANIEL:
Wow, this is a total lie, and it never happened. I'm surprised at
you, normally you are so careful with things like this...
nonetheless...
You then told him that he should get it
> washed. You now fondly recall this incident as funny, funny perhaps to you.
DANIEL:
OK, you have NO IDEA what the history behind this incident was, and
are making assumptions that are all based on heresay. I'll leave it
at that.
> Your repeated comments calling Henry Nowakowski an idiot during your final
> table WSOP web cast where uncalled for and colored by personal issues.
DANIEL:
Ok, here was a clear mistake in judgement on my part. I f---ed up.
However, Henry himself will admit that he provoked the issue. After
beating me in an extremely significant pot, he yelled out "Geramy!!!
These American Idiots think they can push me around." He will admit
to this day that I didn't provoke him in anyway to make this comment.
Sure I was pissed at the broadcast. I shouldn't have even been
there, that I'll admit. I posted an apology for that whole ordeal,
and felt really bad about it.
> These are just two events, but they show that personal attacks aren't just
> reserved for my sister. You seem to be able to justify any action toward
> someone if you personally dislike that person. I find this part of your
> personality quite distasteful.
DANIEL:
Me too actually, that I can't disagree with. I'm not proud of that
fact either, but accept that it as a part of who I am. However, I
don't think I'll ever be able to let things slide- or people slide for
that matter- when I feel compelled to speak up.
>
> I also find it amusing to see how creative you have gotten at trying to call
> attention to your poker skills. You couldn't just come out and say, "Look
> at me! I have won 7 tournaments this year in only 13 final tables." So you
> did the next best thing.
DANIEL:
You are something else. I've made NUMEREROUS posts about other
players, not involving me in the least. Remember the WSOP Fantasy
pool? Anyway, the ONE time I do a critique the top 20 tournament
players this year in a certain area, you jump on it and say I did it
to call attention to MY poker skills?
I would much prefer someone else doing these types of things on RGP,
but few follow the circuit close enough to be able to add valid
analyisis. I'd planned on covering many areas when I had the time-
many of which would CLEARLY be weaknesses of mine. Why don't you do
it? Certainly RGP readers would be interested in your input.
You wrote an analysis of the other top players,
> with special attention to their finishing skills, hoping that your adoring
> fans might look up your finishing record and drool. That these capsules
> about your colleagues might upset some of them was of little consequence.
> You'll do anything to further the Daniel legend.
DANIEL:
Do you have any idea how much thought went into whether or not I
should even make those posts? Knowing, that some may not be happy
about what I had to say? I've already dealt with a few of them on a
one on one basis, and found that in the end, they were ok with the
critiques I posted. You make these statements about ME here on RGP-
why no mention EVER of your distaste for Phil Hellmuth's articles?
I like Phil, I think he's nuts at times, but overall I like the guy.
He knows what I like, and don't like about him. Does he have any
idea what YOU think of him? Does he have any inkling about the fact
that you (and Annie) have been caught badmouthing HIM in public? You
make claims that I've trashed Annie in public that I'll admit to, but
would you admit to the same type of Phil bashing on your part? It's
not ok for me to trash your sister, but you find it totally ok to
ridicule Phil in public on a regular basis? Do I smell a double
standard here?
>
> I am not trying to change you with this post, as I will never again have
> anything to do with you. I will, from now on, ignore you entire existence,
> unless, of course I am trying to bust you at the poker table. You have
> crossed the line, and I don't really care if you ever come back.
>
DANIEL:
Ok, and I don't blame you. Blood is clearly thicker than water. If
this means we will no longer speak, I'll have to respect, and accept
that.
Daniel Negreanu
kidp...@hotmail.com
www.fullcontactpoker.com
John Harkness
wrote:
Almost?
John Harkness
Gary Carson
wrote: that the
>DANIEL:
>elected. If I can't stand sonebody, I feel NO shame in letting
>EVERYBODY know it.
Then why did you try to hide her identity?
You don't know yourself very well at all, Danny.
eleaticus
"Churk" <nu...@damnbusiness.punk> wrote in message
news:19hbpuo3psev3vmck...@4ax.com...
Sorta kinda like a wreck on the highway.
Eleaticus
eleaticus
"Scott N" <bigs...@linuxmail.org> wrote in message
news:Xns929721AC670DDbi...@68.6.19.6...
> "Post of the year" for me...
> Just what Usenet USED to be and what it was meant
> to be.
Hunnh?!?
> Here here!
Hear! Hear!
> Scott N
Eleaticus
lvdlrs
Gary (...) Philips
GROAN
wrote:
GROAN. I like to read SpeedRacer's mental masturbation article about
"Why poker is the greatest game in the world" juxtaposed to this one.
Where is they high flying glory of playing poker SR? Is it the toe
jammed stained seats or the petty bickering amoung huge egos that
makes you squeal with delight when you enter a poker room? You will
find less 'drama' and name calling in a high school hallway.
SR's article:
Robert James Donald
: As a neutral observer, I thought the only interesting thing about HL's post
: is what he DIDN'T say. DN alleges that AD deserves the abuse because she:
:
: a) is a self-proclaimed Omaha expert;
: b) is arrogant/stuck up;
: c) is a bully;
: d) runs down other players behind their backs; and
: e) engages in other petty, anti-social behavior at the table.
Of course, we know that:
a) Daneil Negreneau is a self-proclaimed Omha expert;
b) he's arrogant and stuck up, see his tournament players post
c) is a bully
d) runs down other players behind their backs AND on public forums
e) engages in petty, antisocial behavior in many places
f) lies often, justifying it for the benefit of poker
So I really don't get danny's pot-kettle-black approach.
Larry W. (Wayno) Phillips
>GROAN. I like to read SpeedRacer's mental masturbation article about
>"Why poker is the greatest game in the world" juxtaposed to this one.
WAYNO: I like to read 'GROAN's hiliarious pyschobabble posts for
general entertainment and then juxtapose them with his endless, but
simple-witted attempts at high-school name-calling.
speedracer
gambling problem, and O.J. Simpson killed his ex-wife but they were
all still great at their chosen sports.
Dwight Eisenhower cheated on his wife, George Patton had an ego
problem, George Washington boffed the servants, and Einstein needed a
competent stylist, but you cannot deny their innate ability, acquired
skills, their accomplishments, and their contribution to improving the
world.
Are you going to complain with Ruth at the plate with bases loaded in
the ninth inning of a close World Series final game, with even money
on a young Tyson in a championship fight, with Patton at the head of
your armoured division during an offensive in a war with the Nazis,
with Eisenhower sitting across the table from Kruschev at a
disarmament conference, or with Einstein designing your atomic bomb?
At the WSOP championship final table, are you going to whine and
snivel about having a piece of Johnny Chan when he picks his nose in
between hands or because his shirt doesn't coordinate with his belt?
You can acknowledge and admire the good things in a person and you can
appreciate the amazing things they do without turning a blind eye to
their faults.
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CanadaKev
is. Maybe it is best that way. It seems however that nothing
physical occurred.
Assuming this is true, I feel this is blowing up unnecessarily.
You guys play poker for serious money, getting pissed at other players
is certianly common and should be mildly acceptable in my opinion. I
get pissed playing at the baby tables. Poker is very competitive, and
like any sport players have there friends and enemies.
I don't know anyone who doesn't talk bad about people behind their
backs, and if Danny's doing it infront of Annie, well people do that
too. Does it make him a bad person??
I understand reputation is important, I know I can't stand when other
people think I'm a bad guy. I don't understand why you guys are
trying to hurt each others. Since only about a handfull or two of the
RGP population play in your guys' games and tournies and might know
what this is all about, why do you need to bring it to us??
Howard you seem to be flaming Daniel out of spite for happenings with
your sister but since we don't know what happened and how serious it
is, I have no choice but to think you aren't being the bigger man
here.
I'm guessing this experience has just got you really upset and you
needed to get it out to someone, so i've lost no respect for anyone
involved, YET.
Kevin
DaveM
wrote:
>Are you going to complain...
<snip>
>... with Einstein designing your atomic bomb?
Yes.
DaveM
KlingvilleBill
> No, I complained that she wears the SAME dirty clothes, day in and
>day out. That she wears no shoes and walks around the poker room, and
>then sits on her dirty, sweaty feet in the Bellagio poker room. Other
>people then have to sit on these chairs after she's stained them with
>athlete's foot over several hours. There are dress codes for poker
>rooms (no tank tops), well how much nastier can you get then urinated
>foot sweat soaked into $2000 chairs???
>
She sounds like a Frenchman's dream woman.
Weesatche kid
>From: DaveM Da...@dmonaghan.fsnet.co.uk
>Date: 09/28/2002 6:09 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <jkdcpuc53linkvb1u...@4ax.com>
There's just no pleasing some people.
Weesatche kid
>Date: 09/28/2002 6:54 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20020928195439...@mb-fc.aol.com>
Joke-
A man gets on an elevator with an attractive, well dressed woman.
He says " Can I smell your pussy?"
She says indignantly "No, of course not."
He says "Oh, I guess it's your feet."
BretONNN
>>foot sweat soaked into $2000 chairs???
Sounds like Annie was angling with her hygiene.
Perhaps, Daniel should try a similar angle and load up on pasta the next time
he's about to play her.
Scott N
$IO5.1...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com:
>
> "Scott N" <bigs...@linuxmail.org> wrote in message
> news:Xns929721AC670DDbi...@68.6.19.6...
>> "Post of the year" for me...
>
>> Just what Usenet USED to be and what it was meant
>> to be.
>
> Hunnh?!?
>
Meaning a place to colaborate, and communicate in intelligent
manners. Not to attack, call others names, or post accusations
without proof.
>> Here here!
>
> Hear! Hear!
Yes, So Sue me..
Churk
wrote:
I don't like the way you said that.
Weesatche kid
>Date: 09/28/2002 10:25 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3hscpu4nd0948cc2b...@4ax.com>
All right, I'll reinterate. There's just no pleasing some people.
Topset72
>Date: 9/28/02 2:26 PM Central Daylight Time
>
>On 28 Sep 2002 08:19:03 -0700, kidp...@hotmail.com (Daniel Negreanu)
>wrote:
>
>GROAN. I like to read SpeedRacer's mental masturbation article about
>"Why poker is the greatest game in the world" juxtaposed to this one.
>Where is they high flying glory of playing poker SR? Is it the toe
>jammed stained seats or the petty bickering amoung huge egos that
>makes you squeal with delight when you enter a poker room? You will
>find less 'drama' and name calling in a high school hallway.
>
Speedracer has posted some of the highest quality hold'em advice on this
newsgroup. Other high limit players even asked him to shut up. What have you
contributed - Ripping on someone for loving the game they play? What are you
following this newsgroup for anyway?
Gary
eleaticus
but probably moderated, if so.
Eleaticus
"Scott N" <bigs...@linuxmail.org> wrote in message
news:Xns9297C5BE5C362bi...@68.6.19.6...
RussGgca
>newsgroup. Other high limit players even asked him to shut up. What have
>you
>contributed - Ripping on someone for loving the game they play? What are you
>following this newsgroup for anyway?
>
>Gary
>
Russ Georgiev
Topset72
whocares
Poker is the essence of life is the quintessence of the sublime
is the effervescence of the absurd. To be one with thyself is to be
at peace with the grandeur that is one's psyche while beholding the
beauty of two aces. If anyone should hold as untrue or unworthy of
consideration this eminent possiblility, they would not be privy to
the total convergence of being known only to a select few of
enlightened Budist monks and some RGPers. Notwithstanding the
unconditional surrender of self to which must be succumed
while meditating on the cocktail waitress while between hands,
existing in such a realm must cause precedence to be taken toward
pursuing the knowlege of the understanding of others of all things
poker.
And that goes doubly for Daniel and Howard.
Love,
whocares
Newgca
>
CAN'T
jgm
>When I see a bad apple, I say so- I don't let things like that slide.
You say Annie has been like this since you first met her when you were 22.
It seems you did let it slide for a long time. Why bring it up publicly now?
Chris Constantine
I appreciate that you're trying to defend poker from what you
experience as undesirables.
But perhaps you're being too honest in public, a common "fault" of
youth and naivete.
On the other hand it is a family's duty to keep each other straight
and Howard and Mr Duke should have persuaded Annie to improve her
hygiene and manners years ago. I suppose they excuse it because she's
of the hippie generation and, gosh, she's been pregnant and barefoot
all these years.
If you were influenced by New Yorkers, as we are in Atlantic City, you
might have communicated more directly and kept reminding Annie that
her manners and hygiene were offensive to some or many. Perhaps you
feel you tried enough but based on your bad history with her I suspect
you didn't.
In the future please consider airing everyone's dirty laundry in their
back yards. I suggest you meet Mr Annie and apologize for not talking
directly with him or his wife. And then ask him to buy her shoes that
stay on and to do her laundry. Heck, if you can convince the Dukes to
clean up then Howard might talk to you again.
bradws...@gmail.com
On Saturday, September 28, 2002 at 1:07:14 AM UTC-4, Howard Lederer wrote:
> Daniel,
>
> I would first like to say that, in the past, I have always rooted for you.
> I thought you had the kind of engaging personality and charisma that the
> game of poker needs. Sadly, however, you have allowed your desperate need
> for public recognition, both for you and your close friends, to turn you
> into a mean and vindictive person. You try your best to keep this from you
> adoring fans, but tourney regulars know better.
>
> My motivations for making this post are many, and I think I should detail
> them now. As most RGPers know, your post from a couple of days ago was
> about my sister Annie Duke. You claim you wanted to keep her name out of
> it. This is a complete lie. First, you knew I would figure out who the
> post was about. You also knew that a lot of other high limit players would
> be able to figure it out. You thought it would be cute to continue your
> smear campaign against my sister just under the radar. Then in one of your
> follow up posts to my "Grow up" thread, you wrote, "The same person that
> will tell a player NOT to educate the other players, then five minutes later
> ask the player she told not to say anything a poker question?" The use of
> the female pronoun seems intentional. I can only conclude that you really
> did want to publicly embarrass her. But this post is only a culmination of
> a summer full of public attacks on my sister, a campaign that has hurt her
> deeply. My sister has been inclined to not fight back. But I can not sit
> idly by any longer.
>
> You have also made it clear that you are willing to damage your own
> reputation to bring Annie down. I will get into your reasons for this
> later. I know that if I can diminish you in any way in the eyes of the
> public, you will feel personally diminished. Sad but true.
>
> For me, violence is not an option, so the only thing I can do to make you
> pay something for the pain you have caused my sister is to make the public
> aware of your true nature. I spoke to you privately about this issue, but
> the smear campaign has only intensified. Also, though I admit that I was
> extremely steamed when I made my post two days ago, the last couple of days
> have only brought me down to a simmer. I need to make this post to feel
> better. I don't like feeling angry all the time.
>
> Your reasons for going after my sister's reputation as a poker player are
> obvious to anyone who knows you and many others who don't. First, you
> simply feel that the only female poker player who deserves any media
> attention is Jennifer Harman. Second, you just don't like my sister. There
> is something about her personality that rubs you the wrong way. I can't
> blame you for this and would never hold that against you. We all have those
> people we just can't get along with.
>
> Your obsession with the public's perception of Jennifer's place among the
> top women players combined with your general dislike of Annie has caused you
> to lose all objectivity where she is concerned. If we only look for the bad
> in people, whether it be their conduct or their play, there will always be
> something to find. Nobody is perfect. But this obsession is causing great
> harm to Annie, and it needs to stop.
>
> I could almost stomach the attacks on her play if that was all you had been
> doing. But you have gotten really nasty and personal. You have been heard
> at tournaments, where Annie is not present, referring to her as "Annie
> Puke." You have also complained that she doesn't have any nice clothes and
> she looks disgusting. I am sure your wardrobe would be just amazing after
> going through four pregnancies in six years. This is grade school stuff on
> your part, but it still hurts. When I ask your friends about why you have
> gone berserk on this Annie thing, they just shake their heads and can't
> really explain it. I would be surprised if any of your friends think this
> has been a good thing for you to do.
>
> I would not have had to make this post if you had been even a little
> contrite in response to my post of two days ago. But, instead you showed
> your true colors. Your first response to me, at 5:42 P.M., went like this:
>
> "I just thought the post was funny. I didn't name any names did I? All
> that stuff REALLY happened. If anything, it's a good advertisement for the
> Bellagio game."
>
> We now know this wasn't the real reason for your post. You didn't want your
> adoring public to think that your post might have been mean spirited. But
> you couldn't stand it and 16 minutes later you posted:
>
> "One more thing 'the self proclaimed 'expert' deserves all the criticism the
> expert gets. The expert, is the same person that routinely takes part in
> all of the stupid conversation that goes on in those games. All of the,
> 'how bad does he play' talk. The expert deserves to hear some of that same
> criticism. If the expert were a gentle, nice person who wasn't so rude and
> obnoxious at the table, I never would have posted any of this stuff. The
> expert, is the same person that will look at your hole cards when out of a
> hand, but won't let you look at theirs. The same person that will tell a
> player NOT to educate the other players, then five minutes later ask the
> player she told not to say anything a poker question? The expert is a stuck
> up bully, that deserves everything the expert dishes out, ten fold."
>
> It was nice of you to call yourself on your own lie so quickly.
>
> I have also noticed a pattern where outrageous behavior is OK if it is you
> who does it. While drunk in a medium stakes poker game, you tried to snatch
> a player's toupee off his head. You then told him that he should get it
> washed. You now fondly recall this incident as funny, funny perhaps to you.
> Your repeated comments calling Henry Nowakowski an idiot during your final
> table WSOP web cast where uncalled for and colored by personal issues.
> These are just two events, but they show that personal attacks aren't just
> reserved for my sister. You seem to be able to justify any action toward
> someone if you personally dislike that person. I find this part of your
> personality quite distasteful.
>
> I also find it amusing to see how creative you have gotten at trying to call
> attention to your poker skills. You couldn't just come out and say, "Look
> at me! I have won 7 tournaments this year in only 13 final tables." So you
> did the next best thing. You wrote an analysis of the other top players,
> with special attention to their finishing skills, hoping that your adoring
> fans might look up your finishing record and drool. That these capsules
> about your colleagues might upset some of them was of little consequence.
> You'll do anything to further the Daniel legend.
>
> I am not trying to change you with this post, as I will never again have
> anything to do with you. I will, from now on, ignore you entire existence,
> unless, of course I am trying to bust you at the poker table. You have
> crossed the line, and I don't really care if you ever come back.
>
> Howard Lederer
joeturn
So Daniel if you recall that "There's no Shame in Folding" I think you can beat Annie if you let her buy a few hands off of you.Keeping her honest is your downfall, not hers for beating you,with foolish calls.
You and the dealers know her play is to bluff at all hands,but all her hands are not losers.