Why did Five Card Draw change over the years?
John A. Fish
in the original Super System. Good stuff. However, most of the
chapter covers a game with a joker (bug), antes, and jacks or better to
open. From what I can tell from the online sites I have seen, the game
of today is played with blinds and no joker.
My question has not to do with strategic adjustments but rather why the
change. It seems to me that the presence of the joker would make for a
more interesting and challenging game. And what is so bad about antes?
Could someone tell me why the game has evolved the way that it has. Do
you think that the joker will return? Or are my perceptions just wrong?
Thanks.
- John Fish
Omaha8_Beach
draw played in Casinos, especially California card rooms. Online card
rooms probably offer the regular version cause that's what is more
common in home games.
The way 5 card draw is normally played only has two betting
rounds and does not make it easy to infer anything about your
opponents' holdings. I think making it Jacks or Better and the use of
a bug was supposed to correct this.
Ken
playe...@telus.net
etc. Many still pop up in home games where the boys get bored. Jacks
or Better is just one of them that became quite popular in card rooms.
Cheers!
George
The Players Club
playe...@telus.net.
bjgka...@aol.com
Omaha8_Beach wrote:
> I think Jacks or better is the more common version of five card
> draw played in Casinos, especially California card rooms. Online card
> rooms probably offer the regular version cause that's what is more
> common in home games.
> The way 5 card draw is normally played only has two betting
> rounds and does not make it easy to infer anything about your
> opponents' holdings. I think making it Jacks or Better and the use of
> a bug was supposed to correct this.
>
> Ken
Jacks or better was played in the California rooms, along with lowball,
because they were the only legal forms of poker at that time. Later,
open blind high was played, but wasn't as popular as jacks or better
because the weaker players got busted too fast and thus became
discouraged. Also, colluders broke them faster in this game.
Jacks or better enabled the weaker players to survive longer, thus
paying collection longer
Once other games became legal, draw poker died. Lowball took a little
longer to go, but a couple games can be found occasionally at the
Normandie and Commerce; however, as the jokes goes, "the average age of
a lowball player is dead."
Barbara Gallamore
garycarson
In northern california it was mostly guts played with blinds.
You can't really play jacks or better with blinds becuase you can't
check predraw
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Barbara Gallamore
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bjgka...@aol.com
garycarson wrote:
> Jacks or better with antes was playijng in southern california.
>
> In northern california it was mostly guts played with blinds.
>
> You can't really play jacks or better with blinds becuase you can't
> check predraw
That's true. My post concerned the games in Gardena, in So. Calif.
Barbara Gallamore
garycarson
already had the software for a 52 card deck and draw was just an
afterthought anyway.
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Tom Bayes
> Could someone tell me why the game has evolved the way that it has. Do
> you think that the joker will return? Or are my perceptions just wrong?
> Thanks.
>
> - John Fish
I'm an online draw afficionado although I'm too young to have been around during
the heyday of draw poker in California casinos. I'll throw out a few reasons
why I think online draw is "guts to open" w/blinds.
1. Most younger poker players are used to playing games like holdem with blinds
rather than games like stud, and if a site wants to attract curious holdem
players into their draw games, they want the structure to be familiar. As Gary
Carson mentioned, you really can't play "jacks or better" with blinds.
2. Many of the online sites that offer draw are sites that have a substantial
European player base. My understanding is that draw poker is still popular in
some European countries, but that they are used to the "open with anything" form
with blinds & no joker, and that the "Jacks or better" game with the joker as
bug and antes (popular in Southern California) would be unfamiliar to most
European draw players. If I am wrong about this, let me know.
3. Planet Poker did make the attempt to re-introduce the single joker as a bug a
few years ago after they revamped the software. I personally liked the bug
(even though it was being used in a "guts to open" game with blinds rather than
jacks-or-better) because the bad players would not properly adjust to its use.
A few months later, the joker was dropped. I asked why and apparently a lot of
the regulars hated the joker and complained. I don't know why.
_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
John A. Fish
imagine that a bug would make the software all that more complex but you
never know. Maybe the name is enough to scare them away from the idea
(a bug is a term we programmers use as slang for a defect).
Omaha Chris
> of today is played with blinds and no joker.
The online structure is crap, lazily thrown together by the sites. People
should demand better and pressure the sites to take the time to do it right.
Five card draw was not designed to be played with blinds. Blind bets were
created to force early-position action in flop games. Position (while
important) has different ramifications in draw. Jacks-or-better to open is
lame too. A joker/bug (or not) is fine either way.
Draw poker should go back to what it was a hundred years ago - always
guts-to-open, always with an ante of between 10 and 20 percent of the
minimum bet, and with a liberal betting structure. Anything else is at odds
with the nature of the game. Draw wasn't broke but people keep "fixing" it.
--
Chris P.
http://www.omaholics.com
garycarson
blinds, and with blinds only. The blinds only version was played with
3 blinds. When blinds where used the minimum bring in was twice the
big blind, all games where no limit.
I much prefered the blinds only game, 3 blinds. That game went much
faster.
btw, we paid time, the room had no interest in how fast the game went.
___| reply |__________________________________________________________
--
Chris P.
http://www.omaholics.com
Omaha Chris
> blinds, and with blinds only. The blinds only version was played with
> 3 blinds. When blinds where used the minimum bring in was twice the
> big blind, all games where no limit.
That's different than the online games. I'd have to think about that one. I
think blinds would make more sense if the game were something other than
fixed limit, and if (like you say) you had to pay at least some additional
amount to complete the first round bet and draw cards.
What I don't like about the online structure of SB-BB-fixed limit is the
fact that the blinds are live, and the BB is equal to the first round bet.
That means, if nobody raises, the SB draws to his final hand cheap, and the
BB has a total freeroll to draw to his final hand. And even if there IS one
raise, the BB can draw for half price. The key thing (one of the key things)
is that the players in the blinds only have to withstand two rounds of
betting out of position, as opposed to four rounds out of position in a flop
game (or triple draw). So, for that reason and others, being out of position
in draw high isn't as bad, thus blinds aren't serving one of the two main
functions they were designed to serve.
In other words, the blinds buy you too much, relative to the other players.
They heighten the overall luck factor. They create weird imbalances. The
blind players have too many ways of getting free or cheap shots at sucking
out on better hands.
Antes put everybody on a more level playing field. No forced full bets with
random crap, or free draws with hands that should have been folded (you want
bad players *voluntarily* paying bets to draw to hands they should have
folded, not getting to draw for free). With an ante, anybody who wants to
draw against a player who voluntarily puts more money in the pot will have
to pay for the privilege.
Plus, if there are five players at fixed limit, even an ante as high as 25%
means each player will invest far less forced money overall. Less forced
money = less forced gambling to keep up with the antes = more selective play
= much easier for skilled players to kill the fish.
The decision of whether or not to draw in a game that only gives you one
chance to improve your hand is very important. That decision is simplified
too much for the blind-position players in a fixed limit game.
garycarson
Nothing more.
There is no such thing as a "luck factor".
The odds a a worse hand sucking out on a better hand in draw are pretty
long.
There is always a level playing field, the blinds go around and
everybody gets them.
Most people think the extra action induced by blinds is a good thing.
If you don't like action maybe you should find something besides
gambling to fill you time with.
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in draw high isn't as bad, thus blinds aren't serving one of the two
main
functions they were designed to serve.
In other words, the blinds buy you too much, relative to the other
players.
They heighten the overall luck factor. They create weird imbalances.
The
blind players have too many ways of getting free or cheap shots at
sucking
out on better hands.
Antes put everybody on a more level playing field. No forced full bets
with
random crap, or free draws with hands that should have been folded (you
want
The decision of whether or not to draw in a game that only gives you
one
chance to improve your hand is very important. That decision is
simplified
too much for the blind-position players in a fixed limit game.
--
Chris P.
http://www.omaholics.com
k...@kjo.net
wrote:
>with blinds & no joker, and that the "Jacks or better" game with the joker as
>bug and antes (popular in Southern California) would be unfamiliar to most
In the 1970's and early 80's, and probably previous decades, Jacks or
Better was played in Gardena. The rest of California, including the
San Diego area, mostly played California Draw, which has the bug and
you can open on anything. Some versions of California Draw, you could
check raise before the draw with no pair. No limit California Draw
was very popular in places like San Diego.
The original purpose of blinds was to reduce dealer errors, where a
card would hit an ante and bounce the wrong way. Or at least that's
the way it was explained to me when blinds first became popular.
Sometime in the 1970's, Lowball became legal in the San Diego area,
and that might have been the beginning of the end for California Draw.
Lowball was already legal in Gardena long before San Diego, I think.
Back in the days when California Draw was the only game played in a
particular city, it was extremely easy to make a living from it. It's
a game of skill, far more than most other poker games. All the fish,
whales, etc., who would rather play lowball or blackjack or craps or
some other high-variance gambling game, would be forced to choose
California Draw because it was the only game spread. They were fish
out of water. Good and even mediocre players made fortunes. For
example it was very common to check a pat straight under the gun, get
lots of action such as bet raise call call call, and go all in with
the pat straight, and get called by everyone, some of them drawing 3
to a pair of sevens etc.
an
> 2. Many of the online sites that offer draw are sites that have a substantial
> European player base. My understanding is that draw poker is still popular in
> some European countries, but that they are used to the "open with anything" form
> with blinds & no joker, and that the "Jacks or better" game with the joker as
> bug and antes (popular in Southern California) would be unfamiliar to most
> European draw players. If I am wrong about this, let me know.
You are right! But even here in Europe TV has made "Texas Fold'em" the
ONLY game, what a SHAME!
A-N
Old Wolf
> That also crossed my mind - lol. As a programmer type, I really can't
> imagine that a bug would make the software all that more complex but you
> never know. Maybe the name is enough to scare them away from the idea
> (a bug is a term we programmers use as slang for a defect).
How's the fishpaging going?