Wrong Betting/Dealers

[alex/donna stone]

I've been following the threads on wrong betting and have a few observations
on the subject. By way of background, I've been a craps player for about 20
years. My usual buy-in is around $500 with base bets of $10. I spend more
time on the "wrong" side by a ratio of about 65-35; when betting "wrong" I
establish a don't pass and two don't comes, laying single odds. If the 4
and/or the 10 are involved I will sometimes hedge the don't bets with a
hardway bet. When I hold the dice, or if I have a positive feeling about
a shooter I'll switch to the "right" side taking between 2 & 5 times odds
on the point and on continuous come bets. If the table is cold I often pass
the dice.

In most games my buy-in gets a greeting from the pit boss and I always make
a $5 bet for the boys next to my first bet ("right" or "wrong") and, assuming
good service, whenever I hold the dice. If I'm on the back line and hedge
against the 4 or 10 I put a few dollars on the hardway for the boys and I
occassionally make an "Any 7" bet for them when I have three don't points
working. Now, some observations:

1. As a general rule, "Darksiders" are more experienced players and much
more knowledgeable about the game. I would hazard a gues (based on the
questions I get asked at the table) that as many as a third of "right"
bettors are not even aware that you can bet against the dice, or, if
they are aware of it on a theoretical level, have no idea of the
mechanics involved.

2. From a dealer's point of view, Darksiders are far easier to work with.
The payoffs are simple and there is no pressing of place bets involved.
None of this "take the eight up three units, make the six look like
$54, etc." The darksider lays the correct odds and all the dealerhas to
do is match stack sizes.

3. Because the payoffs are so simple there a far fewer disagreements with
the don't players. In twenty years I have only once had to have the
pit boss review the tape on a disputed payoff.

4. Even from a physical wear and tear point of view the don't bettor is
better for the dealer. First of all most don't bettors station themselves
right next to the dealer so they have easy access to the Don't Come box;
the dealer doesn't need to stretch as much. Second, once the don't points
are established the don't bettor is done until the 7 or point appears;
there are many rolls that have no effect on the don'ts so the dealer
does fewer repetitive movements.

So if I were a dealer I'd welcome the wrong bettor with open arms; easier
to get along with; easier payoffs; less physical and mental stress. And
as far as tipping is concerned I think don't bettors tip as well or better
and, more importantly, make the bets for the boys more on often on the
line then on the props.

Best Regards

Stephen E. Wimbourne
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[Van_...@mk.com]

> mrb...@MCS.COM (alex/donna stone) writes:
>
> 1. As a general rule, "Darksiders" are more experienced players and much
> more knowledgeable about the game. I would hazard a gues (based on the
> questions I get asked at the table) that as many as a third of "right"
> bettors are not even aware that you can bet against the dice, or, if
> they are aware of it on a theoretical level, have no idea of the
> mechanics involved.

My own experience supports this contention, and I have had a few dealers
express a similar sentiment to me as well. I was going to quibble with the
"as many as a third" assessment, but upon reflection I think it may well be
accurate.

> 2. From a dealer's point of view, Darksiders are far easier to work with.
> The payoffs are simple and there is no pressing of place bets involved.
> None of this "take the eight up three units, make the six look like
> $54, etc." The darksider lays the correct odds and all the dealerhas to
> do is match stack sizes.

I will quibble with the last sentence. I think a dealer has to pay more
attention to odds laid that odds taken for the simple reason that incorrect
lays cannot be paid completely (and therefore cannot be taken completely
if lost) whereas any incorrect excess odds taken can be paid at even money.
I would also mention that matching stacks only works with pure single odds.

I'll agree with the rest of this observation; there are far fewer betting
options available to the Don't player and therefore far less movement of
bets once they are set.

> 3. Because the payoffs are so simple there a far fewer disagreements with
> the don't players. In twenty years I have only once had to have the
> pit boss review the tape on a disputed payoff.

I've never had to go to the replay but I have had far more disputes with
dealers over back-side payoffs than over front-side ones. These disputes
are usually brief, however, since they almost always involve an OVERpayment.
I frequently have $15 flat, and when I go behind 5 or 9 I lay $24 (to win
$16). For some reason two dealers out of three, regardless of experience
and city, want to pay me $18 the first time they see that bet.

Forgive the digression, but one such situation became almost ludicrous. The
dealer was obviously inexperienced, and when it was time to pay me she turn-
ed to the pit boss, who was walking by, (no boxman) and asked how much a
$24 lay behind 5 paid. I said, "$16." At the same time the pit boss said,
"$18," and walked away. Faced with what amounted to direct orders to pay a
player MORE than he was about to take, the poor girl's brain overloaded. I
took advantage of a nearby telephone booth to become SuperShooter and re-
solved her dilemma by suggesting she put the extra $2 on the rail. That
way my conscience was clear, she had followed orders, and if the pit boss
realized his error (which he did) HE would be the bad guy if he reclaimed
the excess payoff for the house (which he didn't). Of course I had blown
my secret identity.

> 4. Even from a physical wear and tear point of view the don't bettor is
> better for the dealer. First of all most don't bettors station themselves
> right next to the dealer so they have easy access to the Don't Come box;
> the dealer doesn't need to stretch as much. Second, once the don't points
> are established the don't bettor is done until the 7 or point appears;
> there are many rolls that have no effect on the don'ts so the dealer
> does fewer repetitive movements.

I am constrained to point out that in northern Nevada most layouts have no
separate DC box; the Don't Pass line functions as a Don't Come box also,
which means Don't Pass bets get moved. And when there is a separate DC
box dealers must be ever vigilant to keep a player from making a Don't
Pass bet AFTER a point is established. I'll agree with the second part
though.

> ... And as far as tipping is concerned I think don't bettors tip as well

> or better and, more importantly, make the bets for the boys more on often
> on the line then on the props.

An interesting observation, and one my own behavior and experience supports.
When I'm on the wrong side I put the crew on any craps or ace-deuce on the come-
out (vs. eleven when I'm front side), but once a point is established there
is no back-side equivalent of a hardway, and a bet on Big Red is a little
too ostentatious for the profile I prefer to maintain. I am therefore forced
to take care of the crew by laying some extra odds.

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| The Midnight Skulker
9 * 3 a.k.a. Van_...@mk.com

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