Oven Spring
Alanjarret
I consistently get so much oven spring from my sourdough that it really splits
and distortes the shape of the rond loaf. I'm wondering if I need to let it
ferment longer to avoid the tearing of the loaf?
Alan Jarrett
The Breadmaker's Oven
Alanj...@aol.com
slki...@aol.com
alanj...@aol.com (Alanjarret) wrote:
>
> I consistently get so much oven spring from my sourdough that it
> really splits and distortes the shape of the rond loaf. I'm wondering
> if I need to let it ferment longer to avoid the tearing of the loaf?
It is possible that the extreme oven spring could be due to under-
proofing. The only thing you can do is extend the proof and see if
that helps.
That said, most of us want *more* oven spring, not less. I would
suspect that you are getting the tearing and distortion either because
you are not making slashes in the loaf, the slashes you make are
not extensive enough, or the slashes are not in a good configuration
for the loaf shape you are baking.
One technique that I find works particularly well for boules is
to make four slashes that form a large square on the bread surface
with the ends of the slashes overlapping by a couple of inches.
Another way to think of it would be as a "tic-tac-toe" design where
the central square is much larger and occupies most of the surface
of the bread. (Note, this is different than a normal "tic-tac-toe"
pattern where the lines would be much closer together.) This pattern
focuses the oven spring directly up and you end up with a dramatic
presentation that looks like the interior has blown the top off of the
loaf.
My prediction is that experimentation and refinement of your dough
slashing system will give you the result you want.
Sam Kinsey
slki...@aol.com
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Alanjarret
>you are not making slashes in the loaf, the slashes you make are
>not extensive enough, or the slashes are not in a good configuration
Actually that is the very design I used. I also use the design of a large leaf
with the vein down the middle and three smaller veins off each side of the
larger vein. The boule tends to give me a large "poof" out one end or on the
top to one side. I get this pretty consistently, so I am at the point of
believing I need to let it proof just a little longer. It may be possible that
the slashes are not deep enough to really focus the spring to the top.
Kate Wrightson
Alanjarret <alanj...@aol.com> wrote:
>believing I need to let it proof just a little longer. It may be possible that
>the slashes are not deep enough to really focus the spring to the top.
This is what I've come to believe is my problem. I get a great spring,
but often with a crack across the loaf at about the 1/3 dividing line.
I'm just too tentative to slash deeply enough; on the few occasions where
I've really taken the blade to the loaf decisively, I got a great spring
and a picture-perfect loaf.
--
___________________________________________________________________________
ka...@eyrie.org Kate Wrightson www.eyrie.org/~kate
Just another psycho bitch elf maiden, let loose on an unsuspecting USENET.
Steve Wallace
Alanjarret <alanj...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980918111719...@ng146.aol.com>...
>
> I consistently get so much oven spring from my sourdough that it really
splits
> and distortes the shape of the rond loaf. I'm wondering if I need to let
it
> ferment longer to avoid the tearing of the loaf?
I had exactly this problem with my first couple of attempts. I increased
the proofing time and I am now getting beautiful high-rising round loaves.
My final rise is about 2 hours and the total time from mixing the dough to
oven is a little over 4 hours. However I am using an extremely fast
culture (SDI Russia purchased from the Woods) your times will probably be
somewhat longer.
By the way, today I used the pattern of slashes described by Sam and
yourself earlier in this thread. It worked wonderfully! Thanks.
--
Steve Wallace
scw...@worldnet.att.net
slki...@aol.com
alanj...@aol.com (Alanjarret) wrote:
>
> >you are not making slashes in the loaf, the slashes you make are
> >not extensive enough, or the slashes are not in a good configuration
> >as a "tic-tac-toe" design
>
> Actually that is the very design I used.
As I suggested in my previous post, try making the center square
of the "tic-tac-toe" much larger. What you're really making is
a large square with the ends of the lines overlapping a little.
-!---!- _!_!_
! ! Instead of _!_!_
-!---!- ! !
hous...@hotmail.com
> and distortes the shape of the rond loaf.
Alan,
I had this problem with my round loaves also, even though I was using the
slash design that Sam recommended to you. I was using a bleached and
bromated flour with a protein percentage of about 11.5%. Since I've changed
to a ~13% protein flour and made sure that I get very good gluten development
and steam the oven really well (as opposed to a light misting), I don't have
the problem anymore.
Beth
-----
Matt
>
>That said, most of us want *more* oven spring, not less.
Too much of a good thing can be bad. It's the age of the dough not the cuts
Matt
Matt
Alanjarret wrote in message <19980918111719...@ng146.aol.com>...
>
>I consistently get so much oven spring from my sourdough that it really
splits
>ferment longer to avoid the tearing of the loaf?
>
period.
One other note: If your dough is cool and it proofs cool, it may feel ready,
but it may have too much "force" as the fresh like to say. The potential
yeast activity will be too intense at that point to bake wait a little.
As far as your cuts go. It is not only the pattern, but also the depth that
is important. A young dough will need a deeper cut do that the cut doesn't
close up before the dough is done with the oven spring period. An old dough
will need to have a shallow cut.
Also are you baking with steam? this will help with the blowouts.
Matt
Alanjarret
>My final rise is about 2 hours and the total time from mixing the dough to
>oven is a little over 4 hours. However I am using an extremely fast
>culture (SDI Russia purchased from the Woods)
I am using my own culture but have been using the same times you seem to be
using now, 4 1/2 hours total with one 30 minute rest period.
>By the way, today I used the pattern of slashes described by Sam and
>yourself earlier in this thread. It worked wonderfully! Thanks.
The Euorpean bakers use this method to individualize their breads as well as
for practical purposes of allowing the bread to expand. It certainly adds
character to what would otherwise be an ordinary looking loaf of bread. Glad it
worked out for you.
Alanjarret
> Since I've changed
>to a ~13% protein flour and made sure that I get very good gluten development
>and steam the oven really well (as opposed to a light misting), I do
Beth
I use organic flour that as a rule is 12-13 % protein. I place a cake pan on
the bottom rack with a cup of water a leave it 10 minutes after i put the bread
in. I put the water in 5 minutes before the bread to create a good steam. The
dough is mixed for 15-17 minutes in my KA with the dough hook at a medium
speed, and my gluten development is great. Even with all the aforementioned I
am still having the splitting, "tumor-like" bulges. I tend to believe the
ferment is probably the where I need to make an adjustment at this point.
Alanjarret
>I am 90 % sure that you problem will be solved with extending your proofing
>period.
>
That's where I'm at too Matt.
>it may feel ready,
As to feel, I'm not necessarily certain how the dough should feel when it's
ready.
>As far as your cuts go. It is not only the pattern, but also the depth that
>is important.
That's good to know. I have been making rather shallow cuts which may be
causing the problem also.
>Also are you baking with steam? this will help with the blowouts.
>
Yes. I don't think my problem is steam but I may need to use a different pan
that allows it to spread better. I have been using a cake pan that goes on the
bottom rack. I have to place my stone in the bottom 1/3 of my oven to keep the
top of the bread from burning, so it is right over the pan of water. This may
be restricting the amount of steam in the oven.
Rosemarie
gluten is damaged by overkneading, so it won't hold the shape.
try slow speed, I use speed "2" for 8-10 mins, then sprinkle a small handful of
flour and knead with speed "1" for about 1 mins.
Rosemarie
Alanjarret wrote:
> Alan Jarrett
> The Breadmaker's Oven
> Alanj...@aol.com
--
Rosemarie
<good luck, good health and God bless you!>
Steve Wallace
Alanjarret <alanj...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980921090324...@ng97.aol.com>...
> I am using my own culture but have been using the same times you seem to
be
> using now, 4 1/2 hours total with one 30 minute rest period.
First, I should have told you that I am using a proofing box and keeping
the temperature very close to 85 degrees F. I chose this temperature based
on the recommendations of Dr. Wood in his book "World Sourdoughs from
Antiquity". This may or may not be optimal, my experience is very limited
so far. Other bakers/authors I am familar with recommend longer rise times
at lower temperatures. You said you are familar with Dan Leader's "Bread
Alone", I believe he uses a temp. of 74-80 F. If this is the temp you are
using and you are using a wild yeast only culture (I believe D.L. adds
baker's yeast) you will probably need longer rise times than he uses.
Nancy Silverton "Breads from the La Brea Bakery" uses very long rise times
at a low temp (about 50 F I think), this is an excellent book using wild
yeast only sourdough cultures.
Anyway, rise times are apparently very dependent on temperature so you must
adjust accordingly. The other factor is the culture itself, activation
and leavening times vary a great deal depending on the particular culture
used. Dr. Wood gives an excellent test on page 154 of his book mentioned
above. The section is called "Determining a Culture's Peak Leavening
Rate". Perform this test at the temperature you will use and plan to use a
consistent temp. all the time if possible. The culture I am using peaks
between 3-5 hours at 85 F so I try to have my bread in the oven in no more
than 4 1/2 hours after I begin mixing. Again your mileage will vary
according to the speed of your culture and temperature but I believe this
test will give a good guideline (worked for me!).
If you find your culture works well then fine! If not, I would recommend
obtaining a proven starter from SDI or other source. Not because they are
necessarily superior to anything you can produce yourself but because they
have proven their stability over extended periods of time. If you are
going to invest a large amount of time perfecting your technique isn't it
worth investing in a proven starter? According to the FAQ there is even a
reliable culture available for free!
Good luck.
--
Steve Wallace
scw...@worldnet.att.net
Matt
>
>First, I should have told you that I am using a proofing box and keeping
>the temperature very close to 85 degrees F. I chose this temperature based
>on the recommendations of Dr. Wood in his book "World Sourdoughs from
>Antiquity". This may or may not be optimal, my experience is very limited
>so far. Other bakers/authors I am familar with recommend longer rise times
>at lower temperatures. You said you are familar with Dan Leader's "Bread
>Alone", I believe he uses a temp. of 74-80 F. If this is the temp you are
>using and you are using a wild yeast only culture (I believe D.L. adds
>baker's yeast) you will probably need longer rise times than he uses.
>Nancy Silverton "Breads from the La Brea Bakery" uses very long rise times
>at a low temp (about 50 F I think), this is an excellent book using wild
>yeast only sourdough cultures.
We use a bakery proofing temp of about 70-72 degs to get there results that
we like. I feel that 85 deg is too high. The longer, slower proof is better,
for both favor and for texture. You must be careful when you proof below 65,
because you are beginning to move into the area of retarding a dough, and
unless you know what you are doing there is a tendency to bake too young and
getting too much oven spring, thus causing blow outs. I am not a big fan of
retarding doughs 50-60 deg. However, I have had to do it from time to time
at the bakery and if the timing is right, it bakes off well.
>If you find your culture works well then fine! If not, I would recommend
>obtaining a proven starter from SDI or other source. Not because they are
>necessarily superior to anything you can produce yourself but because they
>have proven their stability over extended periods of time. If you are
>going to invest a large amount of time perfecting your technique isn't it
>worth investing in a proven starter? According to the FAQ there is even a
>reliable culture available for free!
I would recommend to someone to keep trying to make there own starter. That
I believe is the essence of sourdough baking. Stalking and capturing your
own wild yeast developing it and using it to bake bread. Once you get your
own starter going, it doesn't matter what recipe you use, that loaf of bread
that comes out of the oven is all yours. Your own distinct bread. I don't
have a problem with getting a starter from another source, but in this news
group there seems to be a tendency to give up on getting starters on your
own and promotes to buying or having someone send one to you.
Matt
D. Schauer
> >If you find your culture works well then fine! If not, I would recommend
> >obtaining a proven starter from SDI or other source. Not because they are
> >necessarily superior to anything you can produce yourself but because they
> >have proven their stability over extended periods of time. If you are
> >going to invest a large amount of time perfecting your technique isn't it
> >worth investing in a proven starter? According to the FAQ there is even a
> >reliable culture available for free!
>
> I would recommend to someone to keep trying to make there own starter. That
> I believe is the essence of sourdough baking. Stalking and capturing your
> own wild yeast developing it and using it to bake bread. Once you get your
> own starter going, it doesn't matter what recipe you use, that loaf of bread
> that comes out of the oven is all yours. Your own distinct bread. I don't
> have a problem with getting a starter from another source, but in this news
> group there seems to be a tendency to give up on getting starters on your
> own and promotes to buying or having someone send one to you.
> Matt
I think you are mis-interpreting what a lot of us say. Mostly the advice
to get an established starter is given to people who have no experience
baking with sourdough. The idea being: How can you know how to treat a
wild culture you've just caught if you don't know how a healthy starter
behaves? Established starters help you learn how healthy starters
behave, and they are very forgiving to your inevitable lapses.
Secondly, How can you bake bread with your wild culture (which may or
may not be adequate for bread baking) if you don't know how sourdough
behaves? When you are new at something, it is best to remove as many
variables which could reduce your chance for success. Once you have had
success, the next fun step (if you desire taking it) is to go hunting
for that wild starter.
Dan Schauer
Matt
>
>I think you are mis-interpreting what a lot of us say. Mostly the advice
>to get an established starter is given to people who have no experience
>baking with sourdough. The idea being: How can you know how to treat a
>wild culture you've just caught if you don't know how a healthy starter
>behaves? Established starters help you learn how healthy starters
>behave, and they are very forgiving to your inevitable lapses.
>Secondly, How can you bake bread with your wild culture (which may or
>may not be adequate for bread baking) if you don't know how sourdough
>behaves? When you are new at something, it is best to remove as many
>variables which could reduce your chance for success. Once you have had
>success, the next fun step (if you desire taking it) is to go hunting
>for that wild starter.
I said that I don't have a problem with buying starters. Some people like
having starter from all over the world. My problem is that there are people
who post messages here who are looking for starter help, and many times, not
all, but many times the advice is "you are wasting your time now get an
established starter from "x". Then a couple of semi helpful comments follow.
Learning how to bake with sourdough takes time like a starter needs time to
mature. People who really want to become SD bakers have got to make a ton of
mistakes on their own. How will someone know if a dough is overproofed
unless they let one overproof? Or what does a dough taste like if salt is
not added, etc. It is all a learning experience. I tell people that are just
starting out SD baking without knowing how bread bakes to go ahead and start
your starter, but bake a few times with yeast to get the idea of how a well
kneaded dough is supposed to fell, or what oven spring is. While they are
doing that, they can also be working on there starter. If the starter
doesn't rise the dough , is too sour, or smells bad, begin again. Keeping
track of everything that you have done. This is how people learn and how
some one can learn to maintain a home starter and bake with confidence every
time. This whole process takes a very long time. I think buying or borrowing
a starter short cuts the process. I think that it should be up to the person
to decide whether it's time to punt and get a starter or to keep trying. One
way to check how you are doing is to go and buy some genuine artisan SD and
taste it look at it. If you are still experiencing difficulties post a
detailed message, that describes everything you are doing. Most bakers with
experience can at least narrow down the problem.
Again, I have absolutely no problem with people getting SD cultures from
other sources, but if someone is really trying to get there own, they should
be nurtured not told to forget it kid. If someone wants their own SD a they
should spend the time and effort to make themselves. It's worth it.
Matt
D. Schauer
I agree for the most part. However, if you were to look at the same
approach with something like beermaking, you would get very different
advice. A novice wanting to start creating his own recipe for homebrew
would be strongly advised to stick with tried and true recipes for the
particular genre of beer he/she wanted to brew. This is not to say that
creating your own beer recipe is not a goal to aspire for, rather it is
for the novice to get his/her feet wet, understand the technique and
procedures (as well as the pitfalls) before becoming more adventurous.
I think it is the same with SD. It is the best way to learn how SD
behaves, what it can and cannot tolerate, etc. When you know this
(maybe like after a few weeks of looking at an established starter), you
will be more than capable to catch a wild starter and know what to do
with it.
There are many failures and pitfalls lurking for people who try to
create a starter on their own. Problems that can arise that have nothing
to do with technique, skill, or expertise. If a person new to the game
cannot bake a decent loaf of bread without using commercial yeast
because the wild SD culture they are growing isn't healthy enough yet,
what will they do? A lot will either give up frustrated, or possibly
use commercial yeast and say 'Bread cannot be made without storebought
yeast'. I say give people the best shot they can to get a few successes
under their belt, then start on the quest to 'make your own'.
I will, however, take your comments to heart. I will still recommend
that newcomers use an established starter, but I will also give some
info as to how you go about making your own (or maybe I'll refer them
to you ;).
Dan
sharo...@ibm.net
>
>>snip>
In my experience, a "tumor-like" buldge results from poor formation of the loaf.
That is, the loaf hasn't been rolled tight enough, so the tension of the gluten
is not consistant throughout the shell of the loaf. Try forming your boules
in a different way. Might help?
Sharon in LA
"Play with your dough"
Alanjarret
>I am using a proofing box and keeping
>the temperature very close to 85 degrees F.
I have been proofing at 70-75deg F. I have World Sourdoughs and remember the
test you mention. Guess I need to review it. I was trying to duplicate what I
would probably use in my bakery. Since I did not want to be dependent of proof
boxes and I know temperature will always be a factor in Florida I have been
proofing in baskets or canvas covered with a damp cloth.>"Bread
>Alone", I believe he uses a temp. of 74-80 F. If this is the temp you are
>using and you are using a wild yeast only culture (I believe D.L. adds
>baker's yeast) you will probably need longer rise times than he uses.
>
I have been using his formulas but without the baker's yeast. Just yesterday at
Matt's suggestion I proofed an hour longer on the 1st and last proof. I did not
notice a difference in the flavor except it seemed milder. I did not have the
problem with oven spring as I also reduced the starter by 25% at Matt's
suggestion. Even so, one boule rounded up nicely and there was some splitting
on top which is where it should be, the other did not round up much at all.
I'll need to try this formula several more times before I can determine if it's
working right. Moisture and holes are good, crust is good.
>Nancy Silverton "Breads from the La Brea Bakery"
Good suggestion. I'll add it to my growing collection.
Alanjarret
>this news
>group there seems to be a tendency to give up on getting starters on your
>own and promotes to buying or having someone send one to you.
>
YOU GO MATT!
You already know my determination by now about growing my own starter. I am
somewhat surprised at the number of people taht are so ready to get a starter
from someone else because it is an "established" starter. Well, how did it get
that way? It sure wasn't from someone giving up on it. I know, I'm probably
preaching tho the choir.
Alanjarret
> How can you know how to treat a
>wild culture you've just caught if you don't know how a healthy starter
>behaves?
Point well taken Dan. I must admit to listening to the more adventerous side of
my character along with the intellectual challenge this offers. Those before us
did not necessarily have the advantage of "established starters," and I would
like to know the stages of learning that I will go through. In doing so, I
will, over time, get to the point of experience where I will know what I had to
go through to get to the point of having that "established" starter. I will
never know what made that "established " starter what it is. I will know what
makes mine through experience. Yhe bread will be the proof.
Do not mistake this for "disdain" for establishedstarters.
slki...@aol.com
alanj...@aol.com (Alanjarret) wrote:
>
> >there seems to be a tendency to give up on getting starters on your
> >own and promotes to buying or having someone send one to you.
>
> from someone else because it is an "established" starter. Well, how did it get
> that way? It sure wasn't from someone giving up on it.
Well, it all depends on whether you are interested in sourdough baking
because you want to make good bread or whether you are also interested
in the challenge of creating your own sourdough starter. Even with a
predictable starter culture, sourdough baking can be occasionally tricky.
For someone who has never baked sourdougb bread before and may be experiencing
trouble, beginning with a predictable starter eliminates one possible
source of trouble.
How do "established" starters get that way? They are propagated for years
and years, generations and generations. Also, "established" starters are
the end result of selective disposal. For every 100-year-old starter there
were countless starters that thrown away because their properties were
simply not special enough to merit saving. People did, in fact, give up
on all those other starters. Further, it is a relatively well-accepted fact
that certain special properties in sourdough cultures don't come into
being until a certain amount of time has passed. For example, one can
reasonably expect that the symbiotic relationship between microorganisms
that have coexisted in a starter for several decades will be much stronger
than what is found in a months-old starter culture. This is one reason
why these old, established sourdough cultures are such consistent performers
and are often quite resistant to change/invasion by other sourdough
microorganisms.
So the question becomes whether you want to learn how to surf or whether
you want to learn how to make your own surfboard. Most people would
agree that it makes a lot more sense to learn how to surf first, rather
than doing both at the same time. Billyfish illustrates this well in his
posting at: <http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=395370712>. Here is a
guy who has been struggling for a long time with various starter recipes.
He finally gets some satisfaction, finally feels like he can experiment with
his technique and concentrate on making the kind of bread he wants *after*
acquiring a proven starter from SDI. I think he sums it up perfectly by
saying "I now have a starter that is sufficiently predictible to allow
experiments to proceed."
*This* is why so many of us recommend starting with an established sourdough
culture.
Sam Kinsey
slki...@aol.com
Baker63
>Well, it all depends on whether you are interested in sourdough baking
>because you want to make good bread or whether you are also interested
>in the challenge of creating your own sourdough starter.
I really don't think that making your own starter is that big of deal. I can
set out to make a starter and within six weeks I can have a working starter
with good flavor. Almost every time. I really isn't difficult. The person
has to be patient, that's it. Patience and a little vigilance for the first
6 weeks. It is not a CHALLENGE.
I honestly believe that it is a mistake to try to bake SD first off. Learn
how yeasted bread bakes then go the SD. Bread baking in general takes years
to learn and get right, so that you can make consistent bread time and time
again. The entire SD process takes time to learn. The starter is the most
important part, granted, but anyone who really wants to bake SD and has the
drive , can succeed.
>Even with a predictable starter culture, sourdough baking can be
occasionally >tricky. For someone who has never baked sourdough bread before
and may be >experiencing >trouble, beginning with a predictable starter
eliminates one >possible >source of trouble.
Have you ever thought about the knowledge lost by not trying and failing.?
There are more lessons in a failure than in success. As far as the
frustration factor goes, well I believe a little frustration never hurt
anyone.
>How do "established" starters get that way? They are propagated for years
>and years, generations and generations. Also, "established" starters are
>the end result of selective disposal. For every 100-year-old starter there
>were countless starters that thrown away because their properties were
>simply not special enough to merit saving. People did, in fact, give up
>on all those other starters. Further, it is a relatively well-accepted
fact
>that certain special properties in sourdough cultures don't come into
>being until a certain amount of time has passed. For example, one can
>reasonably expect that the symbiotic relationship between microorganisms
>that have coexisted in a starter for several decades will be much stronger
>than what is found in a months-old starter culture. This is one reason
>why these old, established sourdough cultures are such consistent
performers
>and are often quite resistant to change/invasion by other sourdough
>microorganisms.
Once you get your starter going. After a 3 months it's activity and flavor
are fairly well established, with maybe some slight changes over the next
year. You don't need 100 years old starter to bake great bread. This is
beginning to sound elitist. "Well, your new starter is nice, son, but my 100
year starter has a much more full bodied taste." This is bread not wine.
>So the question becomes whether you want to learn how to surf or whether
>you want to learn how to make your own surfboard.
You want to be a great baker learn how to bake one step at a time. (Take the
surfboard track, you'll reap the rewards later.)
>Most people would
>agree that it makes a lot more sense to learn how to surf first, rather
>than doing both at the same time
Speak for yourself. If you learn how to make the surf board you will be
better able to predict how the board is going to react in the water.
OK, OK I'm done. I hope I got some people interested, it's been too, too
quiet lately.
Sam how are you doing I hope you had a great summer . Are you mad at me.
:-)
Matt
Joan Ross
Alan,
I really think that experience in the long run, will dictate a
person's preference to either establishing their own culture or using
a prior established culture. Nothing wrong with either.
My own personal philosphy is never to discourage any person's desire
of how they go about making their bread.
I enjoy sourdough baking because every culture has different
characteristic qualities. Sourdough baking is very challenging.
Even though I encourage using reliable starters in my sourdough
primer, especially for beginners,
I have always advocated "bake bread the way you like ".
My other feeling about baking in general is that the total experience
should be enjoyable and educational as well.
I enjoy all the posts to this group- peruse everyone's opinion and
continue to bake and enjoy..
regards
Joan
--
Joan Ross
The Ross Family Homepage: personal and culinary topics:
baking primers, food photos, recipes, culinary advice!
http://www.pipeline.com/~rosskat/
Alanjarret
>Well, it all depends on whether you are interested in sourdough baking
>because you want to make good bread or whether you are also interested
>in the challenge of creating your own sourdough starter.
Guilty on both counts Sam!
>Even with a
>predictable starter culture, sourdough baking can be occasionally tricky.
Right again! As is often the case, I have been "hung by my tongue," or in this
case by my fingers since this is typed!
I was rather proud, to say the least, that I seemed to have a good, somewhat
reliable, culture that was producing what I would call good sourdough. Notice
the emphasis on "was."
I have not been storing the culture in the "frige" because I wanted to try and
duplicate, as much as possible, the way I would be using the culture in a
bakery scenario, since this is my ultimate goal. I have been making SD every
other day, allowing the culture to feed and refresh. Just recently I got a
little careless with the feeding and all of a sudden my culture seemed to have
lost it's vitality. I have suspected all along that my experience was far from
complete as I continue to read posts from so many others, like yourself, who
obviously have been at this far longer than I.
>For someone who has never baked sourdougb bread before and may be
>experiencing
>trouble, beginning with a predictable starter eliminates one possible
>source of trouble.
>
As I consider your comments, I suppose it seems like trying to reinvent the
wheel, or in this case, something like bakers yeast.
>Billyfish illustrates this well in his
>posting at:
Yes, I agree. I read his post just before yours. Even before reading either and
just before my "discovery" I had pretty much determined I was over my head and
am sending for the Russian culture from SDI.>*This* is why so many of us
recommend starting with an established sourdough
>culture.
>
Again, point well taken. I sincerely appreciate the patience you and others in
the group have demonstrated by your postings to my comments, efforts and
"passion" to this consuming art of sourdough. As someone else once said, don't
remember who, "I have only just begun!" Now before you take a collective deep
breath, I am still determined to work on my own culture. I just realize I will
spend many years doing so.
Alanjarret
>My other feeling about baking in general is that the total experience
>should be enjoyable and educational as well.
>
Right on!
>I really think that experience in the long run, will dictate a
>person's preference to either establishing their own culture or using
>a prior established culture.
The light is beginning to shine through.
> Sourdough baking is very challenging.
>
Now that's a fact! It would not hold my interest if it were otherwise.
Thanks for the encouragement Joan.
Alan Jarrett
The Breadmaker's Oven
Matt
>
>I have not been storing the culture in the "frige" because I wanted to try
and
>duplicate, as much as possible, the way I would be using the culture in a
>bakery scenario, since this is my ultimate goal. I have been making SD
every
>other day, allowing the culture to feed and refresh.
Alan, we refrigerate all our starter after it has had time to become fully
active. If you don't wish to use refrigeration you are going to have to have
someone refresh the starter a couple of times a day, and you really must
watch the starter temp. Down in FL, I know that can be a problem. I strongly
recommend refrigeration on a commercial level.
>Just recently I got a
>little careless with the feeding and all of a sudden my culture seemed to
have
>lost it's vitality.
I hope that you didn't give up on it. Put it on an aggressive feeding
program. Feed, let it go active and feed again. You may be able to save it.
Also, don't feel bad if you lost it. We have a separate starter for our 100%
spelt bread that is started from our main starter. Sometimes the boys forget
to put it away and leave out in 90+ temps and kill it. I just have to start
it again. It happens on the commercial level. Chin up and keep the faith.
:-)
Matt