recipie for awesome pumpernickel?
Ted berman
year. Try as I might, I can't quite get the pumpernickel bread down right.
Do any of you know a great recipie that tastes like the pumpernickel served
at Jewish Deli's in NYC , or the pumpernickel that I;ve had at the German
restaurant in Chicago called the Berghoff??
Teddy B up in Minneapolis MN
Mike Avery
This is probably my favorite rye bread. It's a Bohemian
style rye. I got the recipe from Beatrice Ojakangas'
book "Great Whole Grain Breads". It's out of print, but
always seems to be available at half.com. It's the best
book I've found on whole grain breads.
Her recipe wasn't sourdough, so I converted it. The
recipe below is for 1 loaf.
1.00 cups Starter
1.43 Cups Water
2.76 Cups White Flour
2.71 Cups Rye Flour
4.00 tsp Salt
2.00 tbsp butter
1.00 tsp Caraway seeds
0.25 cups sugar
Mix liquid ingredients and melted butter. Mix in sugar,
salt, caraway seeds, and rye flour. Mix, and then mix in
the white flour a 1/2 cup at a time.
Turn out the bread onto a lightly floured work surface,
cover it, and let it rest 15 minutes. Then knead it 10
minutes or so. Add more flour with caution if you think
it's necessary. Go easy on added flour though as rye
tends to be pretty sticky and it's easy to add enough
flour to turn this into a doorstop.
Once the dough is shiny and satiny, put it in a bowl with
a tbsp of oil in the bottom, turn the dough to coat it
with oil, cover the bowl and let rise until doubled.
Punch down, knead again, form a loaf, and let rise again.
I prefer to use a brotform or banneton. You can also
line the mixing bowl with a floured tea-towel.
Let rise until almost doubled, and then preheat the oven
to 450F.
If you have a pizza stone, quarry tiles, or other brick
lining to your oven, invert the dough onto a baker's peel
that has been dusted with corn meal. Otherwise, invert
the dough onto a rim-less baking sheet, that has been
dusted with cornmeal.
Beatrice Ojankangas suggested that moistening the tea
towel might help release the towel from the bread, but
I haven't found that to be necessary.
She also suggests passing the handle of a wooden spoon
through from the top center of loaf to the bottom to
deflate any big bubbles in the bread. I didn't find that
necessary either, but you might keep it in mind.
At this point, you may want to slash the bread.
Pop it into the oven. If you are using the peel, slide the
loaf onto the tiles. If not, then put the baking sheet
into the oven.
Bake at 450F for 10 minutes with steam, then turn the
oven down to 350F and bake for another 45 minutes, or
so. She likes the thump test. I prefer to use a quick
reading thermometer to test the bread. I live at 7,700
feet where the boiling point is under 200F. I measure
the bread and shoot for a temperature of around 190F.
At sea-level, I think I'd look for something closer to
110.
Let the bread cool before slicing. As with many rye
breads, this one is better the second - or third - day.
Enjoy!
Mike
Samartha
interesting,
what I picked up pretty recently was that pumpernickel breads
are baked for long times - 16 to 24 hours on a low temperature
210 - 250 F ( 100 - 120 C) with fermantation going on for
longer time while being baked and additions put in the
dough, like sugar or so.
( I can't find the original source righ now).
It may be that the places you got the bread was
produced in that fashion whereas the recipes you use
are going by different pumpernickel idea since none
of Mr. Wood's pumpernickel recipes use the long
baking time with low temperature.
It appears that in super markets here any bread
with a darker color made by theri in store bakery
can be called pumpernickel.
The real pumpernickel breads are like brick stones,
square, dense, moist, dark, ususally imported and
expensive.
Samartha
Mike Avery wrote:
> On 14 Nov 2001 at 6:37, Ted berman wrote:
>
> > I have been baking bread with Ed Wood's sourdough starters now for
> > almost 1 year. Try as I might, I can't quite get the pumpernickel
> > bread down right. Do any of you know a great recipie that tastes like
> > the pumpernickel served at Jewish Deli's in NYC , or the pumpernickel
> > that I;ve had at the German restaurant in Chicago called the
> > Berghoff??
>
> This is probably my favorite rye bread. It's a Bohemian
[snip] - please see prev. post w/recipe
ginger
I have not made it since converting to no commercial yeast though.
Sourdough Jewish Rye
Starter
2 c. rye flour
1 c. yogurt
3/4 c. water
1 1/2 Tb cider vinegar
1 Tb yeast
1/2 t. crushed caraway seed
1/2 t. ground cardamom
combine for 24 hrs. the next 3 days add 1 c. rye flour, 3/4 c. water and 2
Tb brown sugar.
Dough
1 1/2 c. old rye bread that has been soaked and squeezed dry
3 c. starter
1 pkg yeast
1 T. salt
4 c. flour
3 T. caraway
Mix, knead, rise, shape, rise, bake 450* about 40 min or until done.
I have read that a old trick for NY bakers was to use this old bread method,
so maybe the addition of that to your current recipe would make your recipe
more to your liking. Possibly a pinch of cardamom too!
Good Luck
Ginger
Monica
this is the first time I write in this group even if it's at least two
months I have been reading your interesting discussions here.
Please let me introduce myself first: my name is Monica, I am Italian
(born in Siena) but I have been living in Germany for 6 years. Baking
bread is my passion and my therapy against stress.
Since I have noticed you like to bake European breads, I believe I
have one thing or two to say in this matter: you will never get the
real "Pumpernikel" unless you use 100% whole rye flour. I have noticed
sometimes you call "whole wheat bread" a bread with just 2 cups whole
wheat flour and perhaps 4 cups white flour. In Germany this is not a
whole wheat bread but a "Mischbrot" a mixed bread.
If you are interested in the real Pumpernikel (the one you eat in
Munich) I have lots of recipes to give you but, as already Samantha
wrote, it has a very long knead/rising phases and baking (10-12 hours
257-300 F). The result is a very dark, heavy and chewy bread... Please
let me know if you are interested and, just in case, give me a couple
of days to translate the recipes in English.
Monica
NAVL-290
Monica wrote
Hi everybody,
This is the first time I write in this group even if it's at least two
Monica
Joe's Reply
Thanks Monica for your input. Yes I would like to see your recipes for
Pumpernikel
Looking forward to your recipes, Joe Umstead
Peter Westh
news:1120e4db.01111...@posting.google.com...
> ... Please
> let me know if you are interested and, just in case, give me a couple
> of days to translate the recipes in English.
I certainly am! I have been experimenting with pumpernickel for some time,
but it is a difficult process; it gets too sour, too soft, too hard etc. You
are welcome to post the recipes in german, if that is easier for you.
Thanks in advance.
Peter,
Denmark
Kenneth Sole
Hello Monica,
Yes, yes, please post!
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
Dick Adams
news:%ioI7.468768$ME2.56...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
> recipie for awesome pumpernickel...
Why not go for *adequate* pumpernickel to start. "Awesomeness"
belongs to persistence or dumb luck (or quite possibly,
overreaction).
> I have been baking bread with Ed Wood's sourdough starters now
for almost 1 year.
Wholegrain rye breads are usually self soured. This disclosure
would not be conducive to sales of sourdough starters.
> Try as I might, I can't quite get the pumpernickel bread down
right.
Katrine Kirk's fine long piece on Vollkorn bread should be
required reading. Unfortunately I have lost track of it. Google
Groups does not apparently go back far enough. That piece has the
considerable advantage (for me, anyway) of being written in
English. Maybe Darrell will tell once again where it has been
tucked away?
After messing around for a while with Ms. Kirk's procedure, I came
up with a brief approximation to it and posted it here at r.f.s.
("Vollkorn without Tears", 1998.) Google has that.
For those persons offering to post articles in the German
language, that seems fine to me, since one can get a very good
start on translation with BabbleFish. Persons offering to
translate might save some time by starting with BabelFish:
http://babel.altavista.com/
--
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com
Bob Gibson
I would very much be interested in your recipe for your Pumpernickel bread.
Bob Gibson
monic...@gmx.de (Monica) wrote in message news:<1120e4db.01111...@posting.google.com>...
Mike Avery
> interesting,
> what I picked up pretty recently was that pumpernickel breads
> are baked for long times - 16 to 24 hours on a low temperature
> 210 - 250 F ( 100 - 120 C) with fermantation going on for
> longer time while being baked and additions put in the
> dough, like sugar or so.
Apologies..... I misread Ted's note and thought he
wanted a pumpernickel, or failing that a good deli-style
rye. The Bohemian rye recipe I posted is *not*
pumpernickel, but it is a killer deli-style rye.
Mike
--
Mike Avery
MAv...@mail.otherwhen.com
Voice: (970)-642-0282 (home)
(970)-642-0244 (office)
FAX: (970)-642-0282
ICQ: 16241692
AOL IM: MAvery81230
* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
way *
A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
"Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!
*<BOINGG!>*"
Monica
This bread comes from Westfalen (north west of the country) and it
goes back to the 7 years war. It is the darkest bread you can find in
Germany. It's colour (real black) is due to the molasses. The very
peculiarity of this bread is its long baking (10-12 hours) at a very
low temperature, covered with an aluminium foil. Actually it is proper
to say that the bread is not baked but cooked. The result is a heavy,
moist bread with almost no crust.
A further comment about the measures: my recipes are in German and the
measures are metric. I hope you have a conversion table because I have
none.
Ingredients:
1000 grams coarse rye meal
500 grams whole rye meal
500 grams sourdough starter
750 ml water 60 F. (I guess it is more or less 3 and 3/4 cups)
2 Tbls Salt
150 ml (more or less 3/4 cup) molasses
Put together all the ingredients in a bowl and knead the dough until
the rye has absorbed all the water. If you have a kneading machine
(not a bread machine) you'll save yourself good 15 minutes hard work,
but if you like to put you hands in the dough, just like I do, then
put all your energy and passion in it. The dough is very sticky at the
beginning and becomes a bit less toward the end, but don't add any
white flour. I quote a comment form the King Arthur recipe for
pumpernickel. Although the recipe is not at all like the original, it
gives good advices, such as this one:
"When you knead a dough that contains rye flour, it will never
completely lose its tacky feel. You want to knead it enough so you can
take your hands away from it without bits of dough sticking to them.
Don't keep adding flour to try to eliminate the "tacky" feel because
you'll end up with something to feed the birds"
Cover the bowl in a damp towel and leave it to rest at least 3-4 hours
in a warm place (55°F to 60°F). When the dough has started to rise
(don't expect this dough to double its size. It won't) knead once
again and place it in a large bread pan. Spray the dough with some
water and wrap it an aluminium foil and let it to rise again (at least
1 hour). In the meantime you can heat the oven (150° C -> 300° F). Put
the dough in the oven and let it bake for 10-12 hours leaving the
hatch of the oven open (just a little bit).
Try the dough with a toothpick, if it is dry you can take the foil off
and turn off the oven, but leave the bread still inside for 1 hour.
Wait until it is cool and enjoy.
Get ready to disappointments because this bread is rather different
from the American version which is familiar to you. Unfortunately I
cannot send you a picture of my bread because I have no scanner, but
perhaps you can take a look at this page (in German) to have an idea
http://www.erzeugermarkt.de/monat/pumpernickel.html
Good work,
Monica
Ron
collection of German bread recipes, including pumpernickel, though you
have to go through a free registation process. Although in German,
it's not too hard to understand. Anyway, here's their pumpernickel
recipe:
(Reference: http://www.sauerteig.de/deutsch/rezepte_und_service/rezepte/pumpernickel.html)
Pumpernickel
1-stufige Sauerteigführung mit Reinzucht-Sauerteig mit
Pumpernickel-Restbrot
(für 10 kg gesamte Schrotmenge berechnet)
50 % Roggenschrot fein
50 % Vollkorn-Roggenschrot mittel
Sauerteig: 0,05 kg Anstellgut Teigausbeute: 200 (ca.)
0,50 kg Roggenschrot mittel Teigtemperatur: 28-30 °C
0 50 l Wasser Stehzeit: 15-20 Stunden
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1,05 kg Sauerteig
Anstellgut vom reifen Sauerteig abnehmen oder
mit Reinzucht-Sauerteig neu starten
Pumpernickel- 1,00 kg Pumpernickel-Restbrot
Restbrot: 3,00 l Wasser Temperatur: 30-40 °C) Stehzeit: 4-6 Stunden
Brotteig:
1,00
kg
Sauerteig
4,00 kg Pumpernickel-Restbrot
4,50 kg Roggenschrot mittel Teigknetung:
5,00 kg Roggenschrot fein Hubkneter:15-20 Min. langsam
3,50 l Wasser (ca.) Spiralkneter:15 Minuten langsam
0,10 kg Salz Teigausbeute: 170 (ca.)
0 10 kg Hefe Teigtemperatur: 28-30 °C
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18,20 kg Brotteig Teigruhe: 30-45 Minuten
Nach der Teigruhe den Teig nochmals kurz durchkneten und in
doppelwandige Backkästen legen. Nach der Gärzeit in die Backkästen
Wasser geben und in den Ofen schieben. Während der Backzeit öfter
Wasser nachfüllen, damit immer feuchte Backhitze herrscht.
Backtemperatur: 160 °C, fallend auf 120 °C
Backzeit: 20-24 Stunden
Scott
"ginger" <gin...@qtpie.net> wrote:
> Sourdough Jewish Rye
> Starter
> 2 c. rye flour
> 1 c. yogurt
This wouldn't be a true Jewish rye, since a Jewish sandwich bread would
not contain dairy products (combining meat and dairy is not kosher).
Jim
spricken.
When in America, speak American..............
Can someone please translate for me?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
To e-mail remove the 'nospam'
"No man who is not willing to bear arms
and to fight for his rights can give a good
reason why he should be entitled to the
privilege of living in a free country."
-- Theodore Roosevelt
"For those who have fought for it, freedom
has a flavor the protected will never know."
(Reported to have been found a piece of
cardboard after the Siege of Khe Sanh -- 1968)
Combat Medic
HHC, 1st Bgde., 2/327th Inf.
101st Airborne Division, 3/69-3/70
Mike Avery
> Huh?!?!?!?!? What?!?!?!?!? I don't parly vous, or is that nein
> spricken.
> When in America, speak American..............
> Can someone please translate for me?
Given that news groups are international, using English
is a courtesy, but hardly required. We all need to get
used to the notion that over the next 10 years or so
native English speakers will become a minority on the
net.
That said, I looked at the recipe and the pointers and
found my high school German wasn't up to the task.
However, going to google and looking for babelfish
pointed me to a alta-vista site,
http://www.altavista.com/sites/babelfish which can
translate text you cut and paste, or web sites you point
to. The translation isn't great, but it is good enough
that you can figure out what is going on.
Mike
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
> rec.food....@mail.otherwhen.com
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/listinfo/rec.food.sourdough
>
--
Mike Avery
MAv...@mail.otherwhen.com
Voice: (970)-642-0282 (home)
(970)-642-0244 (office)
FAX: (970)-642-0282
ICQ: 16241692
AOL IM: MAvery81230
* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
way *
A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Experiments should be reproducable,
they should all fail in the same way.
ginger
"Scott" <Heim...@spamless.invalid> wrote in message
news:Heimdall-CEF522...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
Who Knew?? I just copied it years ago, say you mean to say eating lox and
cream cheese on a bagel isn't kosher either?? Thanks for the info.
Thanks for sharing the recipe Monica if you read this
Ginger
Ed B.
That's hardly an encouraging thought in this group!
--
~)- Love & Peace Ed B.
"We covenant to affirm and promote a free and responsible search for
truth and meaning."
Unitarian Universalist 4th Principle
NAVL-290
Love your Brother, Joe Umstead
Ed B.
But I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I was not referring
to Mike Avery's response concerning language. I was referring to his "A
Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Experiments should be reproducable,
they should all fail in the same way."
In this newsgroup, where experimenting with sourdough and various types
of bread baking is encouraged the thought expressed seemed to me to be
discouraging. ;-)
Ophelia
"Ed B." <huma...@cts.com> wrote in message
news:3BF5E959...@cts.com...
> Yes, it is opening the whole world and yes, that is good.
>
> But I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I was not referring
> to Mike Avery's response concerning language. I was referring to his "A
> Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
> Experiments should be reproducable,
> they should all fail in the same way."
>
> In this newsgroup, where experimenting with sourdough and various types
> of bread baking is encouraged the thought expressed seemed to me to be
> discouraging. ;-)
>
Mike always puts new thoughts at the end of his mail.. I often collect
them:))
O
Ophelia
>
> this is the first time I write in this group even if it's at least two
> months I have been reading your interesting discussions here.
>
> Please let me introduce myself first: my name is Monica, I am Italian
> (born in Siena) but I have been living in Germany for 6 years. Baking
> bread is my passion and my therapy against stress.
Hi Monica
Welcome to the best ng on the net:))
Ophelia
Scotland
Ophelia
"Peter Westh" <pwe...@hum.ku.dk> wrote in message
news:9t0f2p$13oks3$1...@ID-62221.news.dfncis.de...
Ackkkkkkkkkkkkkk noooooooooooooooooooooo English please:)
Ophelia
Samartha
> On 16 Nov 2001 at 20:24, Jim wrote:
>
> > Huh?!?!?!?!? What?!?!?!?!? I don't parly vous, or is that nein
> > spricken.
>
> > When in America, speak American..............
>
> > Can someone please translate for me?
> ...
> pointed me to a alta-vista site,
> http://www.altavista.com/sites/babelfish which can
> translate text you cut and paste, or web sites you point
> to. The translation isn't great, but it is good enough
> that you can figure out what is going on.
- tried it &&
can't tell if this makes any sense, looks pretty
messy:
http://samartha.net/SD/recipes/PumpernickelBBF.html
>
With manual translating, I have a couple of issues:
1.) "Schrot" this came back as "bruised grain"
from a translation web site.
The material is a very rough broken grain flour - can't even
call it flour. The only thing removed from the grain
is the germ part and the kernels are broken in pieces,
more or less big chunks.
This comes in very coarse, coarse, medium, fine.
I don't know the English word for it and used the
term "bruised grain".
If somebody knows the English word, please let
me know.
2.) "Reinzucht Sauerteig" - this are sourdough products
sold by the company running the web site where the
recipe comes from. I suspect they have pure cultures
of organisms and use them to make up sourdoughs.
I left this term out where adequate and otherwise used
"pure culture sourdough" as translation.
3.) The recipe mentions something to do after fermentation
time, but there is no fermentation time given!
I saw a similar recipe recently and can't find it right now
but think to remember that the fermentation time
was astonishingly long too.
The first translation attempt is there:
http://samartha.net/SD/recipes/Pumpernickel.html
Samartha
Kerstin Geiger
My dictionary sais bruised grain too. Never heard of the term. Maybe its
British. The other one is *grist*, which makes a whole lot more sense.
*Schrot* is coarsely ground whole grain of any kind. I think another
English term is *coarse meal*.
Kerstin
Kerstin Geiger
Mike Avery wrote:
>
> On 16 Nov 2001 at 20:24, Jim wrote:
>
> > Huh?!?!?!?!? What?!?!?!?!? I don't parly vous, or is that nein
> > spricken.
>
> > When in America, speak American..............
>
> > Can someone please translate for me?
Ummm, did I miss some posts here? I don't remember seeing the original
one.
People who don't speak any foreign language are often ignorant of the
fact that it takes quite some time to make a good translation. Usually
you get stumped on technical terms, etc., which makes the process three
times as long as one might expect. I've done it before on many
occasions. I'm more than willing to help if a term or phrase is
confusing. But to ask for a whole translation in this venue is just a
tad over the top. Please be considerate.
>
> Given that news groups are international, using English
> is a courtesy, but hardly required. We all need to get
> used to the notion that over the next 10 years or so
> native English speakers will become a minority on the
> net.
Mike, this is a good point you make. We all need to be tolerant of the
fact that English is not the only language in this world, even though
one could easilly get that impression. A little kindness goes a long
way.
Kerstin
Hartmut W. Kuntze
> can't tell if this makes any sense, looks pretty
> messy:
>
> http://samartha.net/SD/recipes/PumpernickelBBF.html
Hi Samartha. You are right, it's comicasl;-)
> With manual translating, I have a couple of issues:
>
> 1.) "Schrot" this came back as "bruised grain"
> from a translation web site.
> The material is a very rough broken grain flour - can't even
> call it flour. The only thing removed from the grain
> is the germ part and the kernels are broken in pieces,
> more or less big chunks.
> This comes in very coarse, coarse, medium, fine.
> I don't know the English word for it and used the
> term "bruised grain".
Schrot is cracked grain, meal when it is finer.
I have not seen it in the marketplace but you could mill your own.
Cracked Rye is commonly used in rustic german breads.
That would be Roggenschrot.
> 2.) "Reinzucht Sauerteig" - this are sourdough products
> sold by the company running the web site where the
> recipe comes from. I suspect they have pure cultures
> of organisms and use them to make up sourdoughs.
> I left this term out where adequate and otherwise used
> "pure culture sourdough" as translation.
Some (most) bakers there use commercial sourdough cultures rather than
nurturing their own.
This has the benefit that the bakteria stays true.
Your translation is correct.
> 3.) The recipe mentions something to do after fermentation
> time, but there is no fermentation time given!
The fermentation time for the Anstellsauer ( first part of recipe,
1-stufige Sauerteigführung ) is given as 12-15 hours.
The rest (Teigruhe 30-45 minutes) after mixing is normal.
And the dough is then folded over itself, divided and filled into
pumpernickel boxes.
These boxes are double walled, into the walls goes water that is
frequently replenished during the 20-24 hour baking time.
Ringelpietz mit Anfassen.
I don't know any customary baker in Germany who bakes true pumpernickel
him/herself, this is usually left to people who specialise.
I love this stuff and believe me, would bake it if I possibly could.
It would be a bear trying to tend the ovens for 24 hours.
Then you would need to have the pumpernickel pans.
Refill the water for 24 hours.
Mill the Schrot, etc.
That's probably why our "pumpernickel" here in the US is the caramel
colored, rye flavored wonderbread variety.
Sincerely.
--
--C=¦-)§ Hartmut W. Kuntze, CMC, S.g.K. (_o_)
" Die einfachsten Dinge sind sehr kompliziert " Morgenroete
"http://home.earthlink.net/~hans48/index.html" --
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
Brian Mailman
>
> "Scott" <Heim...@spamless.invalid> wrote in message
> news:Heimdall-CEF522...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> > In article <h6AI7.1237$tg4....@eagle.america.net>,
> > "ginger" <gin...@qtpie.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Sourdough Jewish Rye
> > > Starter
> > > 2 c. rye flour
> > > 1 c. yogurt
> > This wouldn't be a true Jewish rye, since a Jewish sandwich bread would
> > not contain dairy products (combining meat and dairy is not kosher).
> Who Knew??
Lots of folks, mostly the observant Jews.
> I just copied it years ago, say you mean to say eating lox and
> cream cheese on a bagel isn't kosher either?? Thanks for the info.
Fish are animals but they not considered to be meat (rather, fish are
"neutral" foods and can be served at either dairy or meat meals, same as
vegetables). Poultry is in the meat classification. So make sourdough
bagels or pumpernickel, but be aware the "Jewish" breads don't contain
dairy products.
If you want more information, ask in rec.food.cuisine.jewish or read the
Kosher FAQ posted on occasion (not intended to be definitive, just
informative) http://www.cyber-kitchen.com/rfcj/kosherfaq.htm
B/
Ron
recipe, I attempted a translation. Later, I read that Samartha had
also done so. Being in the language field, I think that another
translation never hurts, since none are perfect. So, for what it's
worth, you can see mine at:
http://www.angelfire.com/vt2/rff64/files/Pumpernickel.htm
Jim <jgpullen...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<tctavtsb6bhjgcj0a...@4ax.com>...
Samartha
>
> A further comment about the measures: my recipes are in German and the
> measures are metric. I hope you have a conversion table because I have
> none.
the conversion from kg to US lbs is a non-brainer:
1 lb is 453 grams
in your head:
divide the kg by two, you get an approximate value
substract 10 % you are more accurate
with a calculator, multiply by 0.453
the other way around, from lbs to kg:
rough: multiply the lbs by 2
add 10 % to be more accurate
with a calculator, divide by 0.453
Samartha
Ed B.
Yes, I have noticed that. I just thought this one was especially
humorous in the context of this NG.
Samartha
> After reading about how angry I made Jim by posting a foreign language
> recipe, I attempted a translation. Later, I read that Samartha had
> also done so. Being in the language field, I think that another
> translation never hurts, since none are perfect. So, for what it's
> worth, you can see mine at:
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/vt2/rff64/files/Pumpernickel.htm
great! Mine sure is not perfect.
Since English is not my native language, I am trying to
get the stuff right, in particular the SD terms. Maybe
somebody can help me.
- translation of "Schrot" with rye meal - is that correct?
Rye meal as being equivalent to "Schrot" - coarsely
broken pices of grain with the germ part removed?
Another poster suggested grit (can't find the post anymore
dammn news server! #$%#$%!!). Grit may be more
correct.
- litertal translation of "Teigausbeute" as dough yield -
is dough yield a common term for the hydration of a dough, i. e.
would an American baker understand hearing "dough yield is 168"
as a 68 % dough hydration?
- translation of "Pumpernickel-Restbrot" as "Pumpernickel crumbs"
The German term seems to refer to a recycling process of leftover,
remaining (not sold) bread. If I hear "crumbs", I associate breading
of things for frying with it. Maybe "recycled Pumpernickel" would
be better?
Thanks,
Samartha
Hartmut W. Kuntze
> - translation of "Schrot" with rye meal - is that correct?
>
> Rye meal as being equivalent to "Schrot" - coarsely
> broken pices of grain with the germ part removed?
Yes Samartha, but Schrot is coarser than meal.
Consider it like Shotgun Pellets, what it also translates to.
If it is Roggenschrot, than the translation would be cracked rye.
Of course, the caliber if the Schrot would have to be specified, in baking
as in sotgunning.
Here we would translate it as pellets, but that would be wrong for Schrot
from Grains.
They are not formed like pellets, but cracked, part of the milling process..
Rye meal in the US is just a rye flour ground from whole rye, just like
whole wheat flour.
But Schrot is definitely more like Grits, Polenta, Corn meal, etc.
Not a flour, just cracked grains.
> - litertal translation of "Teigausbeute" as dough yield -
>
> is dough yield a common term for the hydration of a dough, i. e.
> would an American baker understand hearing "dough yield is 168"
> as a 68 % dough hydration?
Yes.
The weight of the flour is, as always, 100%
The weight of the Liquid is the other Percentage.
We call that here Hydration.
They call that TA, hydration % plus the flour % = Teigausbeute.
> - translation of "Pumpernickel-Restbrot" as "Pumpernickel crumbs"
Yes, actually it is unutilized (left over) Pumpernickel.
But they mix it per Kilo with 3 Kilos (3 Liters) of water.
Basically like Desem.
Sincerely.
--
--C=Ś-)§ Hartmut W. Kuntze, CMC, S.g.K. (_o_)
Meg
<fkge...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>Samartha wrote:
>> If somebody knows the English word, please let
>> me know.
>
>My dictionary sais bruised grain too. Never heard of the term. Maybe its
>British. The other one is *grist*, which makes a whole lot more sense.
>*Schrot* is coarsely ground whole grain of any kind. I think another
>English term is *coarse meal*.
>
>Kerstin
The coarse version is what we call "cracked" grain. I have sometimes
been able to buy cracked wheat in the wholefood shop and have seen
cracked rye (sometimes also called cut rye) in mail-order catalogues,
also in British recipe books for german pumpernickel. If you have a
hand mill you could get the same effect by milling at the loosest i.e.
coarsest setting - "bruised" grain is a good description. Also
sometimes known as groats.
Meg
ginger
> > Who Knew??
>
> Lots of folks, mostly the observant Jews.
I sort of figured that, just implying that I did not.
>but be aware the "Jewish" breads don't contain dairy products.
I know many "Jews" that eat pork, I do not believe that is kosher either,
does that mean they are not Jews?? Maybe the key word here could be
observant?
Is it possible that kosher=Jewish but, Jewish does not necessarily =
kosher?
Thank you for a most intersiting link
Ginger
Brian Mailman
>
> "Brian Mailman" <bmai...@sfo.invalid> wrote:
>
> >but be aware the "Jewish" breads don't contain dairy products.
> I know many "Jews" that eat pork, I do not believe that is kosher either,
> does that mean they are not Jews?? Maybe the key word here could be
> observant?
Yes, exactly. "Observant" is the key word.
> Is it possible that kosher=Jewish but, Jewish does not necessarily =
> kosher?
In food terms, no, it isn't.
And especially if you're talking about something like a traditional
"Jewish Rye" definitely no dairy. Ever. Some breadlike cakes like
babka (see my site,
http://www.jewishfood-list.com/recipes/cakes/babkachocolate01.html )
yes, but for "bread" breads, no.
Now, this is getting offtopic and if you wish to continue, write me
privately, replace .invalid with .com.
B/
Ellen
. Some breadlike cakes like
> babka (see my site,
> http://www.jewishfood-list.com/recipes/cakes/babkachocolate01.html
Thank you! thank you! thank you! I have been looking for a babka recipe and
this looks like exactly what I want!
Ellen
David Cohen
>> - translation of "Pumpernickel-Restbrot" as "Pumpernickel crumbs"
>
>Yes, actually it is unutilized (left over) Pumpernickel.
>But they mix it per Kilo with 3 Kilos (3 Liters) of water.
>Basically like Desem.
>
Interesting. Similarly, in making so-called traditional New York
Jewish rye, leftover sour rye bread which has been soaked in water and
squeezed dry (known as altus) is added to the dough. See, Greenstein,
Secrets of a Jewish Baker. This bread is very different from
pumpernickel--it containins both rye and white flour, but much more
white than rye.
--
David Cohen
david...@myrealbox.com
Kerstin Geiger
Meg wrote:
> The coarse version is what we call "cracked" grain. I have sometimes
> been able to buy cracked wheat in the wholefood shop and have seen
> cracked rye (sometimes also called cut rye) in mail-order catalogues,
> also in British recipe books for german pumpernickel. If you have a
> hand mill you could get the same effect by milling at the loosest i.e.
> coarsest setting - "bruised" grain is a good description. Also
> sometimes known as groats.
>
Cracked grain and groats, I hadn't thought of those terms.
Thanks, Meg
Kerstin
Meg
means "Devil's wind", a reference to its causing flatulence?! I am
afraid it does, too, which is why I don't eat it as much as I would
like!
I'd love to try making it but it is easier to buy the real stuff in
the deli. One day, perhaps.
Meg
Hartmut W. Kuntze
> Talking of translation, did you know that apparently Pumpernickel
> means "Devil's wind", a reference to its causing flatulence?! I am
> afraid it does, too, which is why I don't eat it as much as I would
> like!
? Who came up with that one, Meg?
There is nothing in that word, from a german perspective, to even
remotely suspect that possibility.
Even the Germans don't have a firm grip or explanation on the meaning of
the word.
Some suggest that it originated from the napoleonic wars, Napoleon
feeding it to his horse Nicole.
Therefore "pain pour Nicole" became Pumpernickel.
Possibly not nearly as funny as devils wind, though.
Samartha
see here:
http://www.snopes2.com/language/stories/pumper.htm
http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19970815
funny, haven't noticed yet, will be more watchful in future or
- maybe what I got was not the true pumpernickel being brought
to it's true potential by fermenting/cook/baking for 24 hours.
Sounds really intriguing - with the almost black color of
the bread coming out of this process.
Samartha
Carl West at home
>
> Huh?!?!?!?!? What?!?!?!?!? I don't parly vous, or is that nein
> spricken.
>
> When in America, speak American..............
Ah, but this is the internet, there is no country here. No particular language requirements except to be polite.
--
Carl West ei...@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/eisen
"Everyone generalizes from a single case. I do it."
- Vlad Taltos in _Issola_ by Steven Brust
Scott
Jim <jgpullen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> When in America, speak American..............
Who says that the poster was in America?
Hartmut W. Kuntze
> May well be that the fart origin is true
> see here:
> http://www.snopes2.com/language/stories/pumper.htm
> http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19970815
Well, Samartha, I have learned not to believe everything I read in print *or*
on the internet.
You don't argue with people who buy ink by the barrel, now they don't even
need to buy the ink.
Much less stuff I hear, unless I can independently verify it.
According to the "German Standards Institute", they don't know, can only
guess, but neither true is a guess at devils fart.
Who in their right mind would name it like that and expect people to eat it
with relish?
Pumpern is not farting in old german, but making noise.
Well, I guess if you pull long enough, you could use the word "pumper" for
that, but it was not commonly used for that, if you ever read Goetz von
Berlichingen or some period acounts from Martin Luther (the real one, not the
King).
What the Institute says, that it could come from a name for "Poltergeist"
(rumbling ghost) because it is hard to digest (whole grains), one of many
guesses.
And believe me, the linguist have been researching that and other word origins
in Germany for eons.
But devils fart is a far fetch, although crude/rude enough to be intrigueing,
and sometimes crude/rude will get peoples attention.
http://www.deutsche-standards.de/out/marken_des_jahrhunderts/pumpernickel/
<Weniger klar und einfach als die Herstellung und Zusammensetzung
des Schwarzbrotes ist die Entstehung des Wortes "Pumpernickel"; als
gesichertes Wissen gilt lediglich die
erstmalige Nennung und Erwähnung des Begriffs während des Westfälischen
Friedens im 1 7. Jahrhundert;
der Rest ist Anekdote und ungesicherte Spekulation: So erzählt etwa eine
Geschichte von einem französischen
Soldaten, der das dunkle Brot mit dem Hinweis abgelehnt habe, dass es
lediglich gut für sein Pferd namens
"Nickel" sei ("C'est bon pour Nickel"); eine andere Version glaubt zu
wissen, dass ein Osnabrücker Bischof für
die hungernde Bevölkerung ein schwarzes Brot habe backen lassen, welches
er "bonum panicum" (gutes
Brötchen) nannte, woraus sich dann ebenfalls im Laufe der Zeit das Wort
"Pumpernickel" entwickelt habe. Von
Sprachforschern eindeutig favorisiert wird allerdings die Variante, nach
der sich "Pumpernickel" zurückführen
lässt auf "polternder Geist" - semantisch verweisend und hindeutend auf
die nicht nur verdauungsfördernde
Wirkung des Brotes. Wesentlich zuverlässiger (und auch seriöser) als
vorstehende etymologischen
Überlegungen sind die Informationen über die Firma W. Mestemacher GmbH
aus dem westfälischen
Gütersloh, welche seit inzwischen mehr als 125 Jahren mit der Geschichte
des Pumpernickels aufs Engste
"zusammengebacken" ist, nachdem der Bäckermeister Wilhelm Mestemacher im
Jahr 1871 seine Bäckerei
eröffnete, in der von Anfang an der Pumpernickel zu finden war. >
> funny, haven't noticed yet, will be more watchful in future or
> - maybe what I got was not the true pumpernickel being brought
> to it's true potential by fermenting/cook/baking for 24 hours.
Yes, that is how long it takes to "bake" it, more a steaming in the way Boston
brown bread is made.
> Sounds really intriguing - with the almost black color of
> the bread coming out of this process.
Yes, the grains go through a starch-dextrose conversion and a very delayed
maillard reaction.
Creating the almost black color and natural sweetness.
Sincerely.
--C=¦-)§ Hartmut W. Kuntze, CMC, S.g.K. (_o_)
Monica
Some of you suggested "cracked rye" as a possible translation. This is
partly true. As Samartha said, in Germany you have more or less four
stages of mill: "groß", "mittelgroß", "mittelfein" and "fein". Those
of you who have a hand mill are more familiar with the these terms. In
Germany, most of the families who bake bread at home have a hand mill.
My one has 10 degrees of milling (with stone mechanism): from 1-4 you
can call it "cracked", as to say very similar to bulgur. From grade
4-6 it is "mittelgroß" (I suggest very coarse), which looks like
cuscous that hasn't been cooked yet. From grade 7-9 is "mittelfine"
(coarse), and looks like polenta. Grade 10 is the finest you can get,
but is not like the commercial flour, actually it looks like corn
meal. All of them have one common property: they are 100% whole grain,
included germ and bran. I normally buy the berries, not the flour.
The meaning of milling yourself the flour is that, when it is milled
short before using it, the flour is "stronger" and reacts better with
the sourdough and water. It's the same with coffee beans: the real
coffee lover buys coffee beans instead of powder because fresh ground
coffee tastes better. Old milled flour isn't strong enough to react
with water and sourdough (besides, it's much healthier).
Hope it helps a bit,
Monica
Mike Avery
> Let me give one more explanation to the German term "Schrot".
> Some of you suggested "cracked rye" as a possible translation. This is
> partly true.
Another possibility would be "rye chops". In "The
Bread Builders" they talk about using rye chops for
vollkorn brot and comment that the millers say "for
every two grains in you get three pieces out". A very,
very coarse grind. Probably the 2/3 story is an
exaggeration, but, it's more than cracked, but hardly
ground.
Mike
--
Mike Avery
MAv...@mail.otherwhen.com
Voice: (970)-642-0282 (home)
(970)-642-0244 (office)
FAX: (970)-642-0282
ICQ: 16241692
AOL IM: MAvery81230
* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
way *
A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Users are always right...until they're out of earshot.
Dick Adams
My choice for an explicative.
z.b. (Dropped the soap on my toe) ... "Oh, schrot!"
This grain grinding gadget that plugs into my Kitchen Aid mixer
can make any cracked- or milled grain size except extremely fine.
I suppose I could call any particular size by any name I wished.
The big problem I have is in getting rye berries.
Combining cracked wheat with whole grain rye flour from the
supermarket, I can make a bread that passes with most people for
pumpernickel. I posted about that several years ago under the
title "Vollkorn without tears" at r.f.s. That post can be found
at Google Groups.
---
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com
Dick Adams
My choice for an explicative.
z.b. (Dropped the soap on my toe) ... "Oh, schrot!"
This grain grinding gadget that plugs into the Kitchen Aid mixer can make any cracked or milled grain size except extremely fine. I suppose I could call any particular size by any name I wished. The big problem I have is in getting rye berries.
Samartha
>
> The big problem I have is in getting rye berries.
>
>
Depending where you live - here (CO/Boulder area)
the local health food stores have it or can order it
in bulk (25/50 lbs) to be delivered from their
warehouse to the local store nearby. I called around
and found three sources right away. With $ .46/lb
(6 month ago) for organic rye berries it is not worth
shipping over longer distances.
The only problem is that there is no indication of
bakeability of the material.
In the supermarket, they have "dark rye flour" and the
bulk order guy from the store I bought it from was
not able to associate this name with anything on
his grain list. He had only rye berries without any
additional attributes.
Samartha
Samartha
> > what is "schrot"?
>
> My choice for an explicative.
>
> z.b. (Dropped the soap on my toe) ... "Oh, schrot!"
Interesting custom, there are words (is it nine or so?)
which can't be used and then one uses a different word
to name the same object. Then, it is ok to make that
expression.
Or, on the radio or TV comedies, they make
a beep or honk when one of the words is mentioned and
one feels frustrated because there are several possibilities
to chose from and jealous because the audience at the
performance gets to hear the words live and they are
laughing like mad about it.
In movies, they synchronize the words over with something
sounding similar (freaking, for example) but at least, everyone
knows what is being said.
How did Asterix say? Die spinnen...
Well, the GE word for the toe dropping soap event
would be totally different from the grain quality denomination.
In the southern part of Germany, it would be like:
HIMMEHARGOTNAKREIZKRUZEFIXSAKRAMENTHALLELUJA!!!
involving a male individual and bigger piece of soap, of cause - or a
previous event having caused some irritation.
I strongly suspect this may have to do with the higher rye content
of the breads consumed in that area and be well worth doing more
research on it, possibly on site.
Samartha
Kerstin Geiger
Samartha wrote:
> In the southern part of Germany, it would be like:
>
> HIMMEHARGOTNAKREIZKRUZEFIXSAKRAMENTHALLELUJA!!!
LOL!!!!!!
This brings back memories of "Ein Münchner im Himmel". I haven't thought
of that in ages! - This is a hilarious story of a guy from Munich dying
and going to heaven. He has all kinds of trials and tribulations
adjusting to his new surroundings. The entire story is told in Bavarian
dialect.
Kerstin
Mark Preston
"crushing" that occurs before the barley is decocted. As the Germans
also make weissebier, or what beer, I find the term easily accessable.
Jim
an American. A Proud one at that.
On Sun, 18 Nov 2001 19:21:18 GMT, Scott <Heim...@spamless.invalid>
wrote:
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Jim
being funny. I'll go off and crawl back into my "Crazy Vietman Vet"
fox hole and be on alert for the slings and arrows that will be coming
my way.
On Sun, 18 Nov 2001 17:57:34 GMT, Carl West at home
<ei...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Jim wrote:
>>
>> Huh?!?!?!?!? What?!?!?!?!? I don't parly vous, or is that nein
>> spricken.
>>
>> When in America, speak American..............
>
>Ah, but this is the internet, there is no country here. No particular language requirements except to be polite.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Jim
On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:07:28 -0700, Samartha
<sdnews...@samartha.net> wrote:
>Monica wrote:
>
>>
>> A further comment about the measures: my recipes are in German and the
>> measures are metric. I hope you have a conversion table because I have
>> none.
>
>the conversion from kg to US lbs is a non-brainer:
>
>1 lb is 453 grams
>
>in your head:
>
>divide the kg by two, you get an approximate value
>substract 10 % you are more accurate
>
>with a calculator, multiply by 0.453
>
>the other way around, from lbs to kg:
>
>rough: multiply the lbs by 2
>add 10 % to be more accurate
>
>with a calculator, divide by 0.453
>
>Samartha
Jim
According to the Jewish dietary laws found in Leviticus 11, fish is a
"flesh" food (meat) just like beef and poultry. The neutral food idea
comes from the Catholic church so they could eat it on Fridays until
the Pope decided he could change their dietary laws.
On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:39:44 -0800, Brian Mailman
<bmai...@sfo.invalid> wrote:
>ginger wrote:
>>
>> "Scott" <Heim...@spamless.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:Heimdall-CEF522...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
>> > In article <h6AI7.1237$tg4....@eagle.america.net>,
>> > "ginger" <gin...@qtpie.net> wrote:
{{{{{{{{ Great Gobs and Bunches Cut }}}}}}
>Fish are animals but they not considered to be meat (rather, fish are
>"neutral" foods and can be served at either dairy or meat meals, same as
>vegetables). Poultry is in the meat classification. So make sourdough
>bagels or pumpernickel, but be aware the "Jewish" breads don't contain
>dairy products.
>
>If you want more information, ask in rec.food.cuisine.jewish or read the
>Kosher FAQ posted on occasion (not intended to be definitive, just
>informative) http://www.cyber-kitchen.com/rfcj/kosherfaq.htm
>
>B/
Samartha
> I always thought that 1 kilo was equal to 2.2 pounds.
That depends how you want your bread to taste,
factors 0.454 0.453 0.450 are all good numbers
to use and may produce exellent taste when
used in connection with sourdough in the right
way.
Of cause, if you ask a numerologist, s/he may
give you another perspective on this. And based
on their input you may want to prefer one or
the other factor when making bread to please
the kitchen gods and make your bread rise
higher.
Go there:
http://www.onlineconversion.com/weight.htm
and convert your 2.2 lbs into grams
my dictionary said 453 grams - until I read it,
I thought it was 454 grams - now, looking again,
it seems to be 453.6 grams, so I was closer
with my 454 before looking at the dictionary.
then, if you go to NIST:
http://ts.nist.gov/ts/htdocs/200/202/conv.htm
they have a yet another idea and round away 1 %
without a comment which I think is wrong - but it's
NIST giving that number, what do you do?
Take their number......?
sure beats me.
I am doing grams anyway - and my scale
does whole grams only - the real value may be
200.09 or 200.01, with 5 ingrediences, I
may have a total max. error of 2.5 grams with
this, although higly unlikely.
Grams to lbs is easy - cups to grams, lots of
guess work!
Samartha
Samartha
> All you have to do is look at MY Signature at the bottom to know I'm
> an American. A Proud one at that.
Excellent! I encourage you to be proud and feel good - America
needs you to! It would not exist without many feeling that
way.
Also, continue to play with sourdough, it is much better than
the stuff other "proud" Americans are chosing to play with
these days, "needing to do a Job"!
I find that playing with sourdough, watching the bubbles
grow, dough rising silently by itself, the excitement to find
out how the bread turned out, really caring for the bacteria
growing in the sourdough makes one more quiet and peaceful.
May there be sourdough piece and quietness
with many more Proud Americans - this planet needs it!
Samartha
Meg
<han...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Samartha wrote:
>
>> May well be that the fart origin is true
>> see here:
>> http://www.snopes2.com/language/stories/pumper.htm
>> http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19970815
>
Well well, what fun! I found it in Tom Jaine's 'Making Bread at Home'
and it seemed very plausible to me. I still think it is a better
suggestion than a french horse called Nicole. My Middle High German
dictionary gives for 'pumpern' : hammer, knock, fall with a noise,
while my 'modern' Flugel dict (1880s) gives roll or rumble. Maybe
instead it refers to the noise it makes when you drop it....
However, given that the dandelions which make the diuretic dandelion
tea are called pis-en-lit in French and still sometimes pissabed in
Engglish, and that no-one in the UK seems to mind eating a supper dish
called Toad in the Hole, I don't think we need worry that people mught
have been put off by such a meaning.
I'm sorry - at the back of my mind it will always be for me Devil's
wind. It is so appropriate!
Meg
Darrell Greenwood
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
In article
<zeQI7.187132$W8.67...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Dick
Adams <bad....@nonexist.com> wrote:
> Katrine Kirk's fine long piece on Vollkorn bread should be
> required reading. Unfortunately I have lost track of it. Google
> Groups does not apparently go back far enough.
I found Katrine's posting to rec.food.cooking, which is virtually
identical, but as you noted the one to this group must predate
Google's current cutoff. (Google are apparently trying to get archives
of pre-1995 postings and it may turn up in the future)
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&selm=445bvm%24jd7%40news.uni-c.dk
> That piece has the
> considerable advantage (for me, anyway) of being written in
> English. Maybe Darrell will tell once again where it has been
> tucked away?
Done, and pleased to be of service Dick.
Cheers,
Darrell
p.s., if you misplace this URL again, it is on the main page of the
sourdough faq site, http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html
--
To reply, substitute .net for .invalid in address, i.e., darrell.usenet1 (at)
telus.net
Allan
The Internet is "American" now? When did that happen?
Oh, by the way, you speak English, not American.
Allan
Jim wrote:
>
> Huh?!?!?!?!? What?!?!?!?!? I don't parly vous, or is that nein
> spricken.
>
> When in America, speak American..............
>
> Can someone please translate for me?
>
> On 16 Nov 2001 06:05:56 -0800, rf...@hotmail.com (Ron) wrote:
>
> >By guessing the address www.sauerteig.de, I chanced upon a great
> >collection of German bread recipes, including pumpernickel, though you
> >have to go through a free registation process. Although in German,
> >it's not too hard to understand. Anyway, here's their pumpernickel
> >recipe:
> >
> >(Reference: http://www.sauerteig.de/deutsch/rezepte_und_service/rezepte/pumpernickel.html)
> >
> >Pumpernickel
> >1-stufige Sauerteigführung mit Reinzucht-Sauerteig mit
> >Pumpernickel-Restbrot
> >(für 10 kg gesamte Schrotmenge berechnet)
> >
> >50 % Roggenschrot fein
> >50 % Vollkorn-Roggenschrot mittel
> >
> >Sauerteig: 0,05 kg Anstellgut Teigausbeute: 200 (ca.)
> > 0,50 kg Roggenschrot mittel Teigtemperatur: 28-30 °C
> > 0 50 l Wasser Stehzeit: 15-20 Stunden
> >
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > 1,05 kg Sauerteig
> >
> >
> >Anstellgut vom reifen Sauerteig abnehmen oder
> >mit Reinzucht-Sauerteig neu starten
> >Pumpernickel- 1,00 kg Pumpernickel-Restbrot
> >Restbrot: 3,00 l Wasser Temperatur: 30-40 °C) Stehzeit: 4-6 Stunden
> >
> >Brotteig:
> >1,00
> >kg
> >Sauerteig
> > 4,00 kg Pumpernickel-Restbrot
> > 4,50 kg Roggenschrot mittel Teigknetung:
> > 5,00 kg Roggenschrot fein Hubkneter:15-20 Min. langsam
> > 3,50 l Wasser (ca.) Spiralkneter:15 Minuten langsam
> > 0,10 kg Salz Teigausbeute: 170 (ca.)
> > 0 10 kg Hefe Teigtemperatur: 28-30 °C
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > 18,20 kg Brotteig Teigruhe: 30-45 Minuten
> >
> >
> >Nach der Teigruhe den Teig nochmals kurz durchkneten und in
> >doppelwandige Backkästen legen. Nach der Gärzeit in die Backkästen
> >Wasser geben und in den Ofen schieben. Während der Backzeit öfter
> >Wasser nachfüllen, damit immer feuchte Backhitze herrscht.
> >Backtemperatur: 160 °C, fallend auf 120 °C
> >Backzeit: 20-24 Stunden
Mike Avery
> Huh?!?!?!?!?!? What?!?!?!?!?!?
> The Internet is "American" now? When did that happen?
> Oh, by the way, you speak English, not American.
Without getting into any comments about the Internet,
I think any Englishman or Englishwoman would agree
what the original poster wrote and undoubtedly speaks
was American rather than English.
George Bernard Shaw, I think it was, once commented
that Great Britian and the United States are two
countries forever held apart by a language held in
common.
Mike
Hartmut W. Kuntze
> Huh?!?!?!?!?!? What?!?!?!?!?!?
> The Internet is "American" now? When did that happen?
>
> Oh, by the way, you speak English, not American.
Its been so, Allan, since what's his face, oh, the guy whose followers couldn't punch right,
invented the internet.
All the inet traffic is routed through the US.
And as to the language, the roots might be anglaise, but the vine (not whine, I know my
doubleyou's) is definitely americaine.;-)
Nothing a good graft couldn't accomplish.
Sincerely.
--
Allan
laboratory. :-) That loser probably can't even spell internet.
You are correct Hartmut, the dialect that most Americans speak, is
certainly not The Queens English. However, it is still called English,
unless you are referring to Ebonics.
You have an awesome webpage. I finally figured out why my pie crust
sucks. Thanks.
Allan
"Hartmut W. Kuntze" wrote:
>
> Allan wrote:
>
> > Huh?!?!?!?!?!? What?!?!?!?!?!?
> > The Internet is "American" now? When did that happen?
> >
> > Oh, by the way, you speak English, not American.
>
> Its been so, Allan, since what's his face, oh, the guy whose followers couldn't punch right,
> invented the internet.
> All the inet traffic is routed through the US.
>
> And as to the language, the roots might be anglaise, but the vine (not whine, I know my
> doubleyou's) is definitely americaine.;-)
> Nothing a good graft couldn't accomplish.
>
> Sincerely.
> --
> --C=Ś-)§ Hartmut W. Kuntze, CMC, S.g.K. (_o_)
Ophelia
"Allan" <aldo...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:3C001415...@shaw.ca...
> Huh?!?!?!?!?!? What?!?!?!?!?!?
> The Internet is "American" now? When did that happen?
>
> Oh, by the way, you speak English, not American.
>
> Allan
*mutter* *mutter* *mutter*
I don't care so long as I get the info I need.. and the people in US have
been more than helpful to explain when I have problems
Ophelia
Scotland
ps I am back now Mike.. will send comments later:)
Ron
(I think the consensus was that it's not a crime to give a reference
to a non-English article.)
monic...@gmx.de (Monica) wrote in message news:<1120e4db.01111...@posting.google.com>...
Hartmut W. Kuntze
> [....]It is a cracked grain without the germ coming in different
> sizes (the Krauts have everything standardized and grain
> products must be categorized to be tradable):[....]
Hi.
I talked to a baker friend (just a Kraut, sorry we can't all be perfect)
and he feels that the correct term for Schrot is fractioned grain.
It is not the whole grain cracked, but only the outer parts of the
grain.
First stage of the patent milling process.
The endosperm (interior) falls away, is sifted out and processed for
Gries (grits) and the dust for flour.
That is why the schrot numbers are so high, e.g.1700, 1800.
This indicates a 1700 - 1800 mg Ash per 100 g of Schrot.
A first clear, milled from the outer regions of the endosperm only has a
Typenumber of 1040 for wheat, 1200 for very dark Rye.
Sincerely.
--
Samartha
"Hartmut W. Kuntze" wrote:
> Samartha wrote:
>
> > [....]It is a cracked grain without the germ coming in different
> > sizes (the Krauts have everything standardized and grain
> > products must be categorized to be tradable):[....]
>
> Hi.
>
> I talked to a baker friend (just a Kraut, sorry we can't all be perfect)
?? what do you mean? Krauts being imperfect?
I hope you are not taking the "Kraut" krumm.
I think that the flour type classification is a great thing to
have.
>
> and he feels that the correct term for Schrot is fractioned grain.
Interesting - this may well be the correct denomination. The high
type numbers make sense with the process described.
But is the word "fractional grain" used in the English
language to name the "Schrot" so it is understood.
I trust the translation efforts which was made translating the
Baking: Art and Science book from German which is the source
of the table Ron posted before, denominating Schrot as meal.
If you look at the google search results below on the different
name combinations, not a single one of the fractioned
grain comes up in the correct context whereas the cracks
and meals have plenty of hits.
Searched the web for fractioned rye
Results 1 - 8 of about 12. S
fractioned grain
Results 1 - 80 of about 98
fractioned wheat
Results 1 - 59 of about 80.
rye meal.
Results 1 - 100 of about 43,500
wheat meal.
Results 1 - 100 of about 175,000
grain meal.
Results 1 - 100 of about 165,000
cracked rye.
Results 1 - 100 of about 8,270
cracked wheat.
Results 1 - 100 of about 27,000
cracked grain.
Results 1 - 100 of about 33,800
Also interesting - the minimum durability for meal is 2 to 3 month
and full grain meal and flours should not be stored for longer
than 4 to 6 weeks with normal temperature and humidity.
That was there:
http://www.baeckerei-buchmann.de/info.html
(this came up when I looked for flour types)
I wonder what the shelf life of full grain flours
in stores is. 4 to 6 weeks is short.
Samartha
Aubrey Mitchell
Hartmut W. Kuntze
> "Hartmut W. Kuntze" wrote:
>
> > I talked to a baker friend (just a Kraut, sorry we can't all be perfect)
>
> ?? what do you mean? Krauts being imperfect?
> I hope you are not taking the "Kraut" krumm.
Hi Samartha.
Personally I don't.
It has no negative (exept funny) connotations attached for me, but than, I've
been here for a while.
But I am always railing the guys in de.rec.mampf for using the the term "Amis"
to describe US citizens.
I think we can do without these terms, fat chance though.
> I think that the flour type classification is a great thing to
> have.
I think so too, but we have that too, just different.
> > and he feels that the correct term for Schrot is fractioned grain.
>
> Interesting - this may well be the correct denomination. The high
> type numbers make sense with the process described.
>
> But is the word "fractional grain" used in the English
> language to name the "Schrot" so it is understood.
No.
Schrot is not a product used much over here, except maybe as Graham type
flours.
Since it is not traded much in the US, if at all, that would explain the
absence.
Although the use of Schrot in our breads would greatly benefit national
health.
The difficulty might be in trying to convince the populace.
If you grew up with certain types of breads, that what you will most likely
stick with, in general.
> I trust the translation efforts which was made translating the
> Baking: Art and Science book from German which is the source
> of the table Ron posted before, denominating Schrot as meal.
Translators are never cooks or bakers.
That is why Escoffiers "Le Guide" was such a disaster translated to english.
Until they got a couple of chefs (Cracknell/Kaufman) to translate the
subtelties.
> If you look at the google search results below on the different
> name combinations, not a single one of the fractioned
> grain comes up in the correct context whereas the cracks
> and meals have plenty of hits.
True, if you go by popularity.
If the term and product are not used here, they won't show up in search
engines.
Maybe professional millers would use the term.
> I wonder what the shelf life of full grain flours in stores is. 4 to 6 weeks
> is short.
From the time of milling, 3 month.
After that, the ground germ (fatty) turns rancid.
But there are now flours that have been treated with BHT to prevent that
rancidity.
Nuts sold in this country are notorious too for being sold rancid, especially
hazelnuts and walnuts.
But I think they should have a "best if used before date" on the package.
Brian Mailman
HTML-encoded messages/articles*
Samartha wrote:
>
> Ron wrote:
>
> > Here's a long German thread that discusses how to use "Schrot."
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=889078434.701345%
> > 0frankfurt3.pop.metronet.de&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DQuellstueck%26hl%3Den%26rnum%3D1%26selm%3D889078434.701345%2540frankfurt3.pop.metronet.de
>
> hmh - there is a lot of chit-chat about using self milled flour in
> contrast
> to supermarket flour. Some talk about using additives (gluten,
> lecithin,
> ascorbic acid and - gypsum ) but no real effects nor results,
> if not self milling, buy flour from small mills which deliver to
> bakeries
> and quality is apparently better than supermarket standard flours.
>
> The thread starts with Karin wanting help with pumpernickel bread
> she is trying to make despite additives without success.
> One post (6) she talks about her attempt and the recipe (similar
> to the one translated here and she actually had it 10 hours cooking
> instead of the 16 shown on the recipe, tasted and smelled like a
> pumpernickel but had a structure like a shoe sole.
>
> post # 16 is interesting, he suggests to soak for one hour if cracked
> (Schrot) or full kernels are used. But then he bakes it for 1 1/2
> hours
> and uses bakers yeast :-(
>
> Although the thread is titled "baking with Schrot (cracked grain)"
>
> the word Schrot occurs only in about three posts.
>
> Even if you get the whole thread translated, the ultimate truth
> about Schrot is not revealed - actually, there is none.
>
> It is a cracked grain without the germ coming in different
> sizes (the Krauts have everything standardized and grain
> products must be categorized to be tradable):
>
> There, the denomination of Schrot grain products is as follows:
>
> Type number, fineness and milling type.
>
> Type number
>
> a.) wheat 1700
> b.) rye 1800
>
> the type number denominates the mineral contents and is
> the approximate ash weight in grams of 100 kg water free
> flour burned Lower = whiter flour, higher = darker flour.
>
> Fineness
>
> very coarse, coarse, medium and fine
>
> Milling type
>
> soft or sharp
>
> soft is crushed, sharp is cut
>
> And according to Ron's link:
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~ggda/flour_classification_of.htm
>
> You would find the equivalent US standards there or on the
> labels of the health food store packages.
>
> I had a hard time relating to the flour numbers on German
> bread mixture packages - is the higher number flour better
> than the lower number, what does it mean? Where would
> I get the equivalent flour for a rye T 1370 and wheat T 812
> in US to duplicate the recipe?
>
> Luckily, I am now beyond that ;-)
>
> Samartha
>
>
>
>
>
>
Samartha
"Hartmut W. Kuntze" wrote:
> Samartha wrote:
>
> > "Hartmut W. Kuntze" wrote:
> >
> > > I talked to a baker friend (just a Kraut, sorry we can't all be perfect)
> >
> > ?? what do you mean? Krauts being imperfect?
> > I hope you are not taking the "Kraut" krumm.
>
> Hi Samartha.
>
> Personally I don't.
> It has no negative (exept funny) connotations attached for me, but than, I've
> been here for a while.
Thinking over this term again - me being a "Kraut" myself, it depends on the
context and intonation/voice emphasis how it is used which is hard to
accomplish in written words. My intention was a funny/complimentary
connotation with a grain of cynicism into German "perfectionism" which
I thought this term would be good for.
If somebody would call me a "Kraut", my perception would depend
on many factors most important probably who is saying it and
what his/her intentions are and probably to a great factor in which
space I am.
"S/he looks fucking good!" could be an admiring compliment and
if some purist takes offense on this, s/he sure can EFF her/himself
and would probably even more affected by the second term without
having the word explicitly used.
(no offense intended, for demonstration only)
> But I am always railing the guys in de.rec.mampf for using the the term "Amis"
>
> to describe US citizens.
I don't see it this way. "Ami" was a standing abbreviation for "Amerikaner"
without any negative connotation whatsoever and definitely used more
often than the long form where I lived in GE which was/sill is? occupied
by US.
Maybe the Russian sector population would see and use it as something
negative?
>
> I think we can do without these terms, fat chance though.
>
> > I think that the flour type classification is a great thing to
> > have.
>
> I think so too, but we have that too, just different.
It appears to be less refined and less common in use.
Maybe bakers and millers deal with this but the flour package
in the supermarket sure are not labeled as "Top Patent" or
"First Clears" rather than "Hungarian High Altitude",
"General Purpose" and I think also no restriction to
trade goods in certain categories only, I think.
Instead of category/type names, which would be interchangeable
to some degree, fantasy brand names are used:
http://www.bsm.com/rockymountainmilling/prodlist.htm
>
>
> > > and he feels that the correct term for Schrot is fractioned grain.
> >
> > Interesting - this may well be the correct denomination. The high
> > type numbers make sense with the process described.
> >
> > But is the word "fractional grain" used in the English
> > language to name the "Schrot" so it is understood.
>
> No.
> Schrot is not a product used much over here, except maybe as Graham type
> flours.
> Since it is not traded much in the US, if at all, that would explain the
> absence.
and the absence of good native pumpernickel bread.
>
> Although the use of Schrot in our breads would greatly benefit national
> health.
> The difficulty might be in trying to convince the populace.
> If you grew up with certain types of breads, that what you will most likely
> stick with, in general.
That is definitely true. As for the motivation of the people in the
positions to allow changes towards more health, I don't want to even start.
- bleaching of flours leaving toxic chlorinated hydrocarbons and dioxins
US common, Germany - banned since 1958
- labeling of transgenic goods on shelves - US - nil, Germany probably enforced
- cattle industry feeding hormones and antibiotics to animals to increase growth
-
US apparently common practice, Germany banned
public interest in US - potentially there but open discussion in press amazingly
absent. Priorities are different, that's for sure.
> > I trust the translation efforts which was made translating the
> > Baking: Art and Science book from German which is the source
> > of the table Ron posted before, denominating Schrot as meal.
>
> Translators are never cooks or bakers.
true - but good translations go into the "subtleties" and hire the necessary
special knowledge in order to do the job right.
This book is out now in it's 2nd edition - do you or anyone know it, and
is it any good?
>
....
>
> Nuts sold in this country are notorious too for being sold rancid, especially
> hazelnuts and walnuts.
>
> But I think they should have a "best if used before date" on the package.
>
Yes - about 1 year with walnuts and they are sitting on a regular room
temperature shelf at CostCo whereas the local health food store
has it in a cooler (I have not checked if they have an expiration date,
they make their own packaging from bulk).
The starter calls, happy rises,
Samartha
Doug Weller
mav...@mail.otherwhen.com says...
[SNIP]
> Without getting into any comments about the Internet,
> I think any Englishman or Englishwoman would agree
> what the original poster wrote and undoubtedly speaks
> was American rather than English.
>
difference!
Doug
--
Doug Weller member of moderation panel sci.archaeology.moderated
Submissions to: sci-archaeol...@medieval.org
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk
Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details
Doug Weller
> Oh right, I forgot that Al Gore invented the Internet in his
> laboratory. :-) That loser probably can't even spell internet.
>
Internet? Or don't you think facts count?
Anyone interested in the facts on this can look here:
http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue5_10/wiggins/
http://commons.somewhere.com/rre/2000/RRE.Al.Gore.and.the.Inte1.html
Apologies for being so OT, but this slur on a decent American politician,
coupled with the disenfranchisement of voters in Florida, probably cost him the
election.
Ophelia
"Doug Weller" <dwe...@ramtops.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.167c1cb69...@news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> In article
<mailman.1006640356.44...@mail.otherwhen.com>,
> mav...@mail.otherwhen.com says...
> [SNIP]
> > Without getting into any comments about the Internet,
> > I think any Englishman or Englishwoman would agree
> > what the original poster wrote and undoubtedly speaks
> > was American rather than English.
> >
> As an American living in England, I can assure people that there is a
> difference!
>
> Doug
Agreed! I often have to ask the meaning of things :)
Ophelia
Scotland
Samartha
I am following up on this ancient thread.
Recently, two individuals let me stump into
pumpernickels again - one stuck my nose on to a soft
supermarket bread labeling and another pointed me
towards PBS video clips with coffee as ingredient
for incorrectly labeled bread showed off by
"master chefs".
A search on the internet on this subject
turned up unbelievable procedures and ingredients
and only three pointing into the right direction
without giving much detail.
Somehow corn got in - maybe it is a name
mixup - corn may have been mistaken for
the German name for grain kernels: Korn, which are
the kernels of any type of grain but in connection
with pumpernickel, it is rye kernels which are
very coarsly broken in the coarse rye meal "Schrot".
So, I had to try this.
To make this bread the way it should be made
is a rewarding experience worth every minute
and the result worth every bite.
However, if you have never tasted real pumpernickels,
be warned, the taste and smell sensations are
very unique. For me, one of the strongest bread
tastes ever.
Have you baked bread for 24 hours?
Maybe you want or should and this
could help you:
http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/PPN01/
Enjoy!
Samartha
> Mike & Ted,
>
> interesting,
> what I picked up pretty recently was that pumpernickel breads
> are baked for long times - 16 to 24 hours on a low temperature
> 210 - 250 F ( 100 - 120 C) with fermentation going on for
> longer time while being baked and additions put in the
> dough, like sugar or so.
>
> ( I can't find the original source righ now).
>
> It may be that the places you got the bread was
> produced in that fashion whereas the recipes you use
> are going by different pumpernickel idea since none
> of Mr. Wood's pumpernickel recipes use the long
> baking time with low temperature.
>
> It appears that in super markets here any bread
> with a darker color made by their in store bakery
> can be called pumpernickel.
>
> The real pumpernickel breads are like brick stones,
> square, dense, moist, dark, ususally imported and
> expensive.
>
> Samartha
>
>
> Mike Avery wrote:
>
> > On 14 Nov 2001 at 6:37, Ted berman wrote:
> >
> > > I have been baking bread with Ed Wood's sourdough starters now for
> > > almost 1 year. Try as I might, I can't quite get the pumpernickel
> > > bread down right. Do any of you know a great recipie that tastes like
> > > the pumpernickel served at Jewish Deli's in NYC , or the pumpernickel
> > > that I;ve had at the German restaurant in Chicago called the
> > > Berghoff??
> >
> > This is probably my favorite rye bread. It's a Bohemian
>
> [snip] - please see prev. post w/recipe
Dick Margulis
The word pumpernickel (I believe the literal translation is "fart
devil") can be applied to any of a number of breads made with rye meal.
The type you describe is a Westphalian style, but there are other types
that are more common in other parts of Europe.
I'm not defending the prepackaged, sliced, soft-as-Wonderbread so-called
pumpernickel you see in the supermarket (Yuck!). But I've had some great
pumpernickels that are more on the model of a corn rye (yes, the "corn"
means whole-grain and has nothing to do with maize), and even some
decent ones that are more similar to a white rye in composition (except
made with a substantial fraction of rye meal).
Bakers do often add something to darken their pumpernickels, anything
from black dutch cocoa to blackstrap molasses to caramel color, And if
you consider this cheating, I guess that's your right. But I take
exception to your suggestion that there is only One True Way to
pumpernickel.
Dick
Hartmut W. Kuntze
> Have you baked bread for 24 hours?
>
> Maybe you want or should and this
> could help you:
>
> http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/PPN01/
My God, Samartha.
Do you want to get slaughtered, like Bonifazius, by the heathens?
The Pumpernickel looks great.
Now you might want to experiment with hermethically sealed Brotformen, to get
it even juicier.;-)
Gruesse.
--
C=¦-)§ Hartmut W. Kuntze, CMC, S.g.K. (_o_)
" Die einfachsten Dinge sind sehr kompliziert " Morgenroete
"http://www.cmcchef.com" -"http://www.chefdirect2u.com" --
Dick Adams
"Samartha" <sdnews-inbo...@samartha.net> presented:
http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/PPN01/
Thanks, Samartha, for the fine pumpernickel picture show.
Alan Zelt
Before I lost my HD about a year ago, I had this fantastic recipe for
Moscow rye bread. It was a pure sourdough. One of the steps said that
you know the sour is ready when you open up the oven where it has
quietly been building and smell the distinct aroma of vomit! My kind of
rye.
I have finally got around to reading some of the goodie left by Santa.
Can you believe, the Baking book by the Finnish "guru" Beactrice
Whatever, had not one serious rye recipe. Just breads that were mostly
white bread flour. Go figure. Must be for Finns who have lived in the
states for at least 100 years. On the other hand, I read, with rapt
attention, the description of the sourdough rye in Reinhart's " The
Bread Bakers Apprentice." Pure rye, both light and dark. Can't wait to
give that one a try.
As for corn bread, I would have to say that my favorite would be
Greenstein's version. Real heavy. Not for wimps.
--
Alan
"It's a wine's duty to be red."
........ Harry Waugh
Alan Zelt
>
> Samartha,
>
> The word pumpernickel (I believe the literal translation is "fart
> devil") can be applied to any of a number of breads made with rye meal.
> The type you describe is a Westphalian style, but there are other types
> that are more common in other parts of Europe.
>
> I'm not defending the prepackaged, sliced, soft-as-Wonderbread so-called
> pumpernickel you see in the supermarket (Yuck!).
Hey Dick, you have to put the lox on something for the cocktail parties.
Not everyone uses those cute miniature, soft as wonder bread, bagels for
it.
Beth Hinkle
It looks as though all of your research, experiments and hard work have
paid off!
And thank you for sharing so much of your on-going process with us, we
all get to learn something through it.
The bread looks marvelous. I'm thrilled that you've come up with
something that resonates "Pumpernickel" to you.
Beth
Dick Margulis
Alan Zelt wrote:
> Dick Margulis wrote:
>
>>Samartha,
>>
>>The word pumpernickel (I believe the literal translation is "fart
>>devil") can be applied to any of a number of breads made with rye meal.
>>The type you describe is a Westphalian style, but there are other types
>>that are more common in other parts of Europe.
>>
>>I'm not defending the prepackaged, sliced, soft-as-Wonderbread so-called
>>pumpernickel you see in the supermarket (Yuck!).
>>
>
> Hey Dick, you have to put the lox on something for the cocktail parties.
> Not everyone uses those cute miniature, soft as wonder bread, bagels for
> it.
>
Alan, yes, there are also some decent pumpernickels to be bought in the
supermarket. Many of the so-called "cocktail" pumpernickels in the deli
department are pretty decent and work fine for that purpose. A lot of
them are Westphalian-style; so even Samarta might approve. But I was
referring to the big squishy imitation pumpernickels in the bread aisle.
"You don't have to be Jewish to love Levy's"--in fact it probably helps
if you're not ;-)
Dick
Scott
Alan Zelt <alz...@worldnet.att.netFINNFAN> wrote:
> Before I lost my HD about a year ago, I had this fantastic recipe for
> Moscow rye bread. It was a pure sourdough. One of the steps said that
> you know the sour is ready when you open up the oven where it has
> quietly been building and smell the distinct aroma of vomit! My kind of
> rye.
Hi Alan. Is this something like it?
<hhttp://www.nursehealer.com/SD4.htm>
From _The Art of Russian Cuisine_ by Anne Volokh.
Moscow-Style Dark Rye Bread
Starter:
1 tbsp active starter
2 1/2 cups warm water
2 cups dark rye flour
Mix ingredients and let proof at a LOW temperature for about 12 hours
(this low temperature is VERY important if you're using the russian
culture as it can often smell like vomit when it's fed whole grains)
Bread:
All the starter
3 1/4 cup dark rye flour
1 tbsp shortening (oil is easier)
6 1/2 tbsp dark malt syrup
1/4 tsp corn syrup
1 tsp salt
1/2 tsp caraway (optional)
Ok. This takes work. You knead, knead, knead,..... It also acts
like the monster that wants to eat the world's supply of rye flour.
Knead at least 30 minutes if you're kneading vigorously. More
if not. Shape into a slightly flattened ball.
Be prepared. This won't rise a whole lot.
Place a pan of water in the bottom of an oven heated to 425. Bake
bread for 5 min then reduce heat to 375 and bake another 1 1/4 hours.
Age bread 6 hours before eating.
Scott
Russian rye:
<http://russianfestival.bizland.com/bread_contest.htm>
Alan Zelt
Thank you, thank you. This is exactly the one that I was looking for. :)
:) I will admit that my liking for a 100% sourdough rye bread is not
matched by my MIL's passion for rye. I generally prefer one that
contains some lite rye and clear flour.
I will, however be trying out Reinhart's new 100% rye sourdough bread
because my wife wants me to see if I can re-create the type of buns that
she likes. Shaped and scaled like a english muffin, it is even fork
split like one. The only differences that I will be trying out for her
are:
addition of caramel coloring to approximate the color that she is used
to seeing in Finland.
Baking the buns at 500F. She is convinced that Finnish bakers bake this
kind of bun/muffin at a high temp to ensure the darker color.This is not
normal to baking most rye breads, which are generally done at about 375F
for a prolonged period. I will keep all informed because I think it is
kind of neat to try and replicate these buns, which can work as bread,
sandwich rolls, etc.
As for Ms. Volokh's recipe, I will try it to see what actually happens.
I am not seeking out the vomit smell, but do hope the finished bread can
be safely eaten, not just be crumbled up to become bird food in our back
yard. :)
Samartha
just count how many recipes called pumpernickels are
baking for less than 16 hours and use instead sweeteners
and coloring ingredients.
Samartha
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