How to get a thick crust?
jason molinari
have previously made them regular, instead of sourdough, and i have
the same problem). The flavor was excellent, but i can't seem to get
my crust thick. I had a pan of water in the bottom of the oven, as
well as spritzing ever couple minutes for the first 8-10 mins. The
crust is very thin. What can i do to increase it?
jason
Kenneth
wrote:
>I had a pan of water in the bottom of the oven, as
>well as spritzing ever couple minutes for the first 8-10 mins.
Hi Jason,
Each of those cools the oven significantly... It takes an incredible
amount of energy to change water to steam. If that happens inside the
oven, it just takes heat energy that you want to go into the bread. To
get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven, and
conveyed into the oven. That is (usually) easy to do. Just let me know
if you would like to know more about the method...
All the best,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
Dick Adams
"Kenneth" <use...@SPAMLESSsoleassociates.com> wrote in message news:0i51i0l4aklnl1vr8...@4ax.com...
> [ ... ]
> To get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven, and
> conveyed into the oven. That is (usually) easy to do. Just let me know
> if you would like to know more about the method...
Presumably a reference to the pressure-cooker trick. Kenneth, how does
the crust obtainable with Bongard steam compare with what may be gotten
with pressure-cooker steam? (Digital photos of a slice or cut loaf would be
really good for a comparison.)
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ko0cus8g8qclqggb0...@4ax.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=m30lduc9bvl284bjn...@4ax.com
Would one who had achieved satisfaction with the pressure-cooker trick be advised to
further invest in a commercial, steam-fitted, bakery oven?
Many thanks in advance for your attention to this inquiry.
--
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html
jason molinari
Hey Ken, i would like to hear how to steamify the oven externally. Is
steam generation definitely my thin-crust problem?
thanks
jason
Dave Bell
> Kenneth <use...@SPAMLESSsoleassociates.com> wrote in message news:<0i51i0l4aklnl1vr8...@4ax.com>...
> > Each of those cools the oven significantly... It takes an incredible
> > amount of energy to change water to steam. If that happens inside the
> > oven, it just takes heat energy that you want to go into the bread. To
> > get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven, and
> > conveyed into the oven. That is (usually) easy to do. Just let me know
> > if you would like to know more about the method...
> >
> > All the best,
>
> Hey Ken, i would like to hear how to steamify the oven externally. Is
> steam generation definitely my thin-crust problem?
>
> thanks
> jason
Unles it' sin a FAQ somewhere I missed it, I'd also like ot see it, and it
would probably bee good to re-post it here, for the other newcomers.
Thanks!
Dave
Steve B
news:0i51i0l4aklnl1vr8...@4ax.com...
Pardon me, Kenneth, but IMHO that's a bunch of hooey. Many commercial deck
ovens (Bongards included) generate their steam inside the oven by spraying
water on heated metal plates (how does your Bongard generate steam?). Why
shouldn't the same technique work well for the home baker? In fact, it
works quite well for me. At the bottom of my oven, I have a roasting pan
full of cleaned landscaping stones that is heated when the oven preheats
(with apologies to D. Adams). When I load my loaves into the oven, I toss
1/2 - 1 cup of extremely hot water onto the stones and quickly close the
door, thus producing voluminous amounts of steam. The result is a nice,
shiny crisp crust (photos previously posted).
- Steve Brandt
Dave Bell
> works quite well for me. At the bottom of my oven, I have a roasting pan
> full of cleaned landscaping stones that is heated when the oven preheats
> (with apologies to D. Adams). When I load my loaves into the oven, I toss
> 1/2 - 1 cup of extremely hot water onto the stones and quickly close the
> door, thus producing voluminous amounts of steam. The result is a nice,
> shiny crisp crust (photos previously posted).
> - Steve Brandt
To better understand this for my own kitchen, I assume you have a
"conventional" home-type oven. Gas or electric? How long do you preheat
the oven, particularly since you're heating a large box of rocks, as well?
Dave
Dick Adams
"Steve B" <steve...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Bg8Uc.21375$mD.3847@attbi_s02...
> (with apologies to D. Adams). When I load my loaves into the oven, I toss
> 1/2 - 1 cup of extremely hot water onto the stones and quickly close the
> door, thus producing voluminous amounts of steam. The result is a nice,
> shiny crisp crust (photos previously posted).
Why not say where the photos are posted? Why are you apologizing to me?
---
DickA
P.S. The pictures at the Yahoo Group archive are hard to get to for most people
because signing-up is required. www.zippyimages.com is much easier. A slice
image, or one of a cut loaf, is good for appreciating the crust.
Kenneth
wrote:
>Pardon me, Kenneth, but IMHO that's a bunch of hooey. Many commercial deck
>ovens (Bongards included) generate their steam inside the oven by spraying
>water on heated metal plates (how does your Bongard generate steam?). Why
>shouldn't the same technique work well for the home baker?
Hi Steve,
No, the Bongard, (mine and others) generates steam _outside_ the oven
by spraying water on heated steel plates.
Indeed, as you go on to say, that same technique does work as well for
the home baker.
Kenneth
wrote:
>Kenneth <use...@SPAMLESSsoleassociates.com> wrote in message news:<0i51i0l4aklnl1vr8...@4ax.com>...
>> On 15 Aug 2004 19:48:46 -0700, jasonm...@usa.net (jason molinari)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I had a pan of water in the bottom of the oven, as
>> >well as spritzing ever couple minutes for the first 8-10 mins.
>>
>> Hi Jason,
>>
>> Each of those cools the oven significantly... It takes an incredible
>> amount of energy to change water to steam. If that happens inside the
>> oven, it just takes heat energy that you want to go into the bread. To
>> get the benefits of steam, it must be generated outside the oven, and
>> conveyed into the oven. That is (usually) easy to do. Just let me know
>> if you would like to know more about the method...
>>
>> All the best,
>
>Hey Ken, i would like to hear how to steamify the oven externally. Is
>steam generation definitely my thin-crust problem?
>
>thanks
>jason
Hi Jason,
Here you go:
I bought a cheap (about $15) pressure cooker, and drilled a hole in
the top. I got appropriate copper fittings that allowed me to run a
tube from the cooker lid down the back of the oven, and into the vent.
Please note that I used the pressure cooker as a boiler only because
it seemed a convenient way to have a lid (with the tube) that could be
easily removed while still not leaking steam. The name "Pressure"
cooker sometimes rattles folks, but let us remember that the tube is
open at the other end so there is no pressure buildup at all.
If you need further information I will be happy to provide, but for
now, this may be enough to get you started.
HTH,
Roy Basan
Ciabatta whether made by bakers yeast, or sourdough culture requires
proper baking sequence:
Preheat the oven to 250 deg C.Mist the atmosphere with lots of steam.
Load the proofed dough on the oven floor.
1)250 degree C ( with lots of steam for crust formation) for first
5-10 minutes of baking.
2)Then reduce the heat to 225-230 deg C( to help stabilize the crust)
and bake for 20-25 minutes.
3)Finally at 200 deg C for 15 minutes ( to maintain the crust and dry
excess moisture out).
The bread will usually come out well with a thick crust that is really
stable but with a normal open crumb texture typical of ciabatta.
Roy
Fred
"jason molinari" <jasonm...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:a2ef46b6.04081...@posting.google.com...
Avoid doing what you did. Steaming thins crusts.
Fred
Foodie Forums
http://www.foodieforums.com
Steve B
"Dave Bell" <db...@TheSPAMFREEBells.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.58.04...@shell2.bayarea.net...
> To better understand this for my own kitchen, I assume you have a
> "conventional" home-type oven. Gas or electric? How long do you preheat
> the oven, particularly since you're heating a large box of rocks, as well?
I do, indeed, have a conventional home gas oven. The oven is preheated for
approximately 1 hour prior to the bake.
- Steve Brandt
Steve B
news:KX8Uc.215311$OB3....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Why not say where the photos are posted? Why are you apologizing to me?
The pictures were posted on Dusty's website, the URL of which I don't
currently have at hand. A search of the r.f.s archives should provide the
URL, for those interested. Apologies were provided in jest, knowing of your
previously professed indifference to (some might even call it disdain for)
oven preheating.
- Steve Brandt
Samartha
at one point, I had a disgustingly thin crust for some time because I
sprayed water on top of the loafs during baking a couple of times, mostly
in the beginning. My reasoning at this point was to allow better rise by
keeping the crust soft. (Don't know if this was right, the thin crust sure
was not worth it.)
Then I figured that the effect of cooling the loafs by spraying was the
cause - I stopped it and went better - thicker crust.
Nowadays, I close the vent holes of the oven with duct tape and keep a
metal bowl with boiling water between the heat coils on the bottom
(electrical oven) during baking.
When the water gets low in the bowl, I replenish with boiling water and let
the oven heat up again; this happens between batches - one comes out, water
in, reheat the oven until max and when it's reached, next batch goes in.
The oven is so full of hot steam that I get almost burnt in the face by
opening the door and the steam comes out. There is a lot of better heat
transfer to the loafs from the steam.
I have been thinking about the external steam generation but currently,
there is no need for it. I get pretty thick crusts especially by increasing
the heat for the last 5 - 10 minutes to max temperature again to get ready
for the next batch.
Your case may be somewhat different because you have a gas oven and can't
close the vent but I think that the burning gas produces some steam as well.
I think you could benefit from using baking stones (if you don't) - 1" clay
tiles - two layers heated up with a small bowl of boiling water in a bottom
corner of your oven and no spraying could do the trick.
For what it's worth.
Samartha
>_______________________________________________
>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>Rec.food....@www.mountainbitwarrior.com
>http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/mailman/listinfo/rec.food.sourdough
remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address
Dick Adams
> Apologies were provided in jest, knowing of your previously professed
> indifference to (some might even call it disdain for) oven preheating.
Well, when it comes to approaching energy independence, it is a step
backwards. And then, there is the matter of contaminating the atmosphere
with greenhouse gases ...
---
DickA
williamwaller
At the risk of repeating the content of an earlier posting...
I found that using covered ceramic or iron pots, similar to the La Cloche
bakers, works very well. And simplifies the process. There is no need for
steaming as the dough releases all the moisture it needs for oven
development during the covered bake phase and also, no need for preheating
the oven. The stone or iron will transmit plenty of heat over the course of
the total bake. You can realize plenty of spring (if that is an objective)
and are guaranteed a wonderfully developed crust: dark, thick, chewy etc...
A typical bake schedule:
1) cold oven start, dough proofed in ceramic pot, coarse corn meal to
release (no oil for seasoned bakeware)
2) set oven to 500 F.
3) remove lids after 20 minutes.
4) remove breads after a further 15 minutes.
I was very skeptical about this method initially. It suggested "Betty
Crocker" to me. I like inverting baskets, slashing loaves and going into a
really hot oven. But it works! The principle difference between this method
and the baking stone is that the finished loaves have a shiny surface...
which typically takes a lot of waterworks to achieve.
Will
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
> rec.food....@mail.otherwhen.com
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/listinfo/rec.food.sourdough
jason molinari
did have a pan of water boiling away in the bottom (after i preheated
for 45 minutes or so at 500 deg.), and i also spritzed. Next time i'll
tyr without spritzing and just having a tray of water. If that doesn't
work i might consider a cheap pressure cooker method ala Kenneth.
I ask again, are we SURE that my problem is from lack of steam? I'd
hate to be futzing with the steam if that isn't the problem.
thanks
jason
Samartha
At 12:31 PM 8/17/2004, you wrote:
>[..]
>I ask again, are we SURE that my problem is from lack of steam? I'd
>hate to be futzing with the steam if that isn't the problem.
I surely don't know for "SURE" what the full cause of your situation could
be. Only thing I know for sure that in my case, the frequent spraying of
the bread in the oven caused thin crust and not doing it with lots of hot
steam in the oven with higher temperature gives me crusts I want.
In any case, don't futz, if you don't enjoy, that makes bad bread karma and
who wants to eat bread made by unhappy bakers anyway? Who knows, maybe the
real cause of stomach ulcers is from eating bread made by unhappy bakers?
Samartha
Dick Adams
"jason molinari" <jasonm...@usa.net> wrote in message news:a2ef46b6.04081...@posting.google.com...
> I'd hate to be futzing with the steam if that isn't the problem.
One should witness the steaming process in a wood-fired- or
commercial deck oven. It is not something which is easy to
re-create in a home oven. (Kenneth could help us a lot with
understanding that difference since it would appear that he has
both an ordinary- and a commercial (steamed) oven in his
kitchen.)
I could get pretty good steam in our Kenmore gas oven, but
it did not seem worth the inconvenience. Please left-click on
the line(s) below to bring up some evidence for that:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=FBMv8.33991$Rw2.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net
But very fine bread can be made without any "steam" at all, nor
preheated stone (nor preheated anything). See, for instance:
http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/EZSDLoaves/index.html
Of course, that is not for the huge holes and the real thick
chewy crusts. That is where the heat and steam of a commercial
or artisanal oven comes in very handy.
Dusty
Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply
"Steve B" <steve...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hJfUc.22925$mD.16172@attbi_s02...
williamwaller
>
> "jason molinari" <jasonm...@usa.net> wrote in message
> news:a2ef46b6.04081...@posting.google.com...
>
>> I'd hate to be futzing with the steam if that isn't the problem.
>
> One should witness the steaming process in a wood-fired- or
> commercial deck oven. It is not something which is easy to
> re-create in a home oven. (Kenneth could help us a lot with
> understanding that difference since it would appear that he has
> both an ordinary- and a commercial (steamed) oven in his
> kitchen.)
>
> I could get pretty good steam in our Kenmore gas oven, but
> it did not seem worth the inconvenience. Please left-click on
> the line(s) below to bring up some evidence for that:
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=FBMv8.33991$Rw2.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops
> .worldnet.att.net
>
> But very fine bread can be made without any "steam" at all, nor
> preheated stone (nor preheated anything). See, for instance:
> http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/EZSDLoaves/index.html
>
> Of course, that is not for the huge holes and the real thick
> chewy crusts. That is where the heat and steam of a commercial
> or artisanal oven comes in very handy.
I had thought about buying a steam oven but it seemed:
1) too Republican
and
2) too much like replicating (on a much larger scale) the environment of a
smaller ceramic pot placed in a very hot oven. Get a Romertopff at a yard
sale. This is what they look like...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/kitchen/B0000DDVOY/qid=
1092838992/sr=ka-2/ref=pd_ka_2/103-3299965-9316651
Dick Adams
"williamwaller" <willia...@charter.net> wrote in message news:mailman.7.1092839371.1...@mail.otherwhen.com...
> I had thought about buying a steam oven but it seemed:
> 1) too Republican
You are a true Republican when you go to the corner store for 5 pounds
of flour in your SUV.
> 2) too much like replicating (on a much larger scale) the environment of a
> smaller ceramic pot placed in a very hot oven. Get a Romertopff at a yard
> sale ...
Not much hope for that. Most people smash 'em in the first week or two.
---
DickA
Ron Anderson
a cold oven. My thought was placing a soaked non fired clay pot in a hot
oven will shatter it.
Have you done this in a hot oven?
I tried one time a loaf in it with a cold start and was not happy at all
with the result.
--
Ron Anderson
A1 Sewing Machine
PO Box 60
Sand Lake, NY 12153
518-469-5133
http://www.a1sewingmachine.com
"williamwaller" <willia...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.7.1092839371.1...@mail.otherwhen.com...
williamwaller
> Interesting the Romertopff. I have one and it tells me to always start with
> a cold oven. My thought was placing a soaked non fired clay pot in a hot
> oven will shatter it.
> Have you done this in a hot oven?
> I tried one time a loaf in it with a cold start and was not happy at all
> with the result.
>
Ron,
The way I do it is:
1) be sure the finished bread will release. I use corn meal, if the pot is
not well seasoned it may require oil (as in lightly spread Crisco ((frankly,
lard is healthier)) + corn meal)
2) proof bread covered in pot. Do not soak pot...
3) place pot in COLD oven, set temp to 500
4) bake for about 20 minutes (this obviously depends on oven, slow oven will
be longer) by the end of 20 minutes the oven should be very hot...
5) after this initial 20 minutes, REMOVE THE TOP and bake the bread for
another 15 minutes or until the crust is well browned. I prefer mine very
dark but fine tuning will be your call...
What you have done is recreate the environment of a small steam oven within
your larger oven. The dough will release enough water vapor to fully develop
the bread and set the stage for an excellent crust when it finally hits the
hot dry air. The finished bread will not be dense or damp. The crust may
crackle as it cools. A good sign...
As I write this, I've got two rye breads waiting to go...
Will
Kenneth
<willia...@charter.net> wrote:
>What you have done is recreate the environment of a small steam oven within
>your larger oven. The dough will release enough water vapor to fully develop
>the bread and set the stage for an excellent crust when it finally hits the
>hot dry air.
Hi Will,
My comment is not to suggest that there is anything wrong with you
approach, but, assuming that I am understanding your comments
correctly, it is not "recreating" the environment of a small steam
oven at all.
In an oven with steam, the cool dough is put in the hot oven and then
steam is injected. The injection of steam allows the stored heat of
the oven to move into the surface of the loaf much more rapidly than
if the loaf were surrounded by dry air.
Your technique is analogous to putting the dough into a cold oven,
heating the oven for twenty minutes or so, and then injecting steam.
I am sure that you would agree that for the first many minutes that
the ceramic container is in the oven there is no steam created inside
because it is far too cool.
All the best,
williamwaller
Agreed. There is no relevant "steam" created for a while because the ceramic
pot needs to heat.
My message needs to be clarified, since I am using the word "steam" loosely.
Water vapor is being released. And the water vapor is keeping the dough's
surface moist allowing the both the dough and it's surface to develop
further. The dough begins to heat, begins to bake, without drying out on the
surface. This allows the dough to release more water and more efficiently
too, since it's not "sealed". I think of this aspect as heat conditioning. I
think the dough's interior cooks more completely when it's dry crust
formation is delayed. The interior of the crumb, for example, become more
glossy, not dull off-white.
Steam, obviously, is a specific state of water vapor. There is no rule that
says to me that "steam" is inherently better for bread than water vapor at a
different temperature. Both delay the hardening crust, both allow the bread
to outgas more thoroughly. And both convect heat into the bread. But we
know, or should, that convected energy is only surficial. Radiant energy is
what penetrates the loaves. That would be the from oven walls, the deck ,the
stone, or in my example, the sides of the clay pot. Not the steam.
Perhaps we need a physicist to address the "steam as carrier of oven energy"
issue. My infra-red sauna heats me a lot quicker than those old hot rock and
water numbers.
Will