New Twist on 12-hour Sponge
Stephen Peck
the results. I have found, regardless of flour, that my dough tears as if
not fully developed, especially after using a 12-hour sponge. Shortening
the sponge process has helped tremendously and I now have better crust and
crumb than before, but without the mature levain or sourdough flavor that I
am used to. It seems that whatever is developing in the sponge is actually
destroying the gluten bonds that would normally develop. Am I doing
something new and wrong here? Anybody else with such experience?
Kenneth
Hi Stephen,
The long fermentation of the sponge lowers the pH...
The acid destroys the gluten, but increases the flavor.
So, the whole thing is a balancing act.
You already seem to be on the right track of
experimentation, so stay with it.
Keeping careful records will help you to duplicate the taste
and texture you hope to achieve.
All the best,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
Boron Elgar
Nevertheless, I made some really spectacular sourdough English muffins
with a 24 hour preferment.
Boron
Barry Harmon
news:id9jd4purr7rc2gdr...@4ax.com:
> On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 22:24:55 -0400, Kenneth
> <use...@soleSPAMLESSassociates.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:43:32 -0700, "Stephen Peck"
>><stephe...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>>I just recently got back into bread baking and have been disappointed
>>>with the results. I have found, regardless of flour, that my dough
>>>tears as if not fully developed, especially after using a 12-hour
>>>sponge. Shortening the sponge process has helped tremendously and I
>>>now have better crust and crumb than before, but without the mature
>>>levain or sourdough flavor that I am used to. It seems that whatever
>>>is developing in the sponge is actually destroying the gluten bonds
>>>that would normally develop. Am I doing something new and wrong
>>>here? Anybody else with such experience?
You might try a couple of things.
Use less of the sponge in proportion to the total amount of dough.
Refrigerate the sponge after 3 or 4 hours.
Barry
Janet Bostwick
I agree with you, Barry. Refrigeration would be what I would do. Depending
upon your flour, the wetness or dryness of your preferment and the amount of
'starter' used to create the preferment, with refrigeration you can possibly
get away with 3-4 days at least.
Janet
Dick Adams
"Kenneth" <use...@soleSPAMLESSassociates.com> wrote in message news:t19jd4lbrson41pc6...@4ax.com...
> Keeping careful records will help you to duplicate the taste
> and texture you hope to achieve.
Yes, indeed, keeping careful records will remind you what to
not do again.
"Janet Bostwick" <nos...@cableone.net> wrote in message news:x9ednWP8UsUzukfV...@supernews.com...
> Refrigeration would be what I would do. Depending
> upon your flour, the wetness or dryness of your preferment and the amount of
> 'starter' used to create the preferment, with refrigeration you can possibly
> get away with 3-4 days at least.
Hey, with freezing you might go for months, or even years.
"Stephen Peck" <stephe...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:72gCk.2080$eb4...@flpi147.ffdc.sbc.com...
> Shortening the sponge process has helped tremendously and
> I now have better crust and crumb than before, but without
> the mature levain or sourdough flavor that I am used to.
The secret is that sourdough flavors develop during the rise. It
takes better dough to hold together long enough than most people
would bother to learn how to make. Souring preferments is
counterproductive.
Sure, you can get sourdough flavors by souring preferments, but
the dough from that is very fragile (good for baking-soda pancakes,
however, and maybe some kind of quickbread muffins).
I could tell you one secret for making dough that lasts well through
a long sourdough rise, but you would not like it.
Well, it is good to see some activity here again, even though it is
mostly nonsense.
I wonder if the FAQs are still out there ...
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html
--
Dicky
Mike Romain
If I do a 12 hour sponge to bring out sour, I need to give it a second
feed of about 3-4 hours to get it 'lively' again or I have results like
yours.
I also have found the best 'sour' comes from a 8-10 hour final rise. I
can get this pretty much every time by only starting my bread mix with
about a tablespoon of really active starter like Dick does in his
'billowy sourdough' recipe.
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/Instructions_Rev.doc
Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com
Boron Elgar
I have had a lot of success with long pre-ferments. Honest. I really
got into them when I started making Carol Field's coccodrillo, which
calls for 2 separate (yeasted) pre-ferments that each go for 12-24
hours.
Granted, coccodrillo calls for small amounts of yeast, and my usual SD
pre-ferments usually use no more than a cup to a cup and a half of
ripe starter for 3 or more loaves (sometimes less starter), but I am
now wondering if my fun with this is due to the flour I use. My basic
AP is Heckers, although last weekend's 24+ hr pre-ferment for English
muffins used KA. Each of those flours is generally quite good for
breads and can hold up to a lot of abuse. Field's recipe only makes
two loaves but on my concoctions, I prep to bake 4-6 loaves.
I also do long ferments in the fridge, but that is more likely to be
with a finished dough than a pre-ferment.
And I'd wonder about my starters, but I have a lot of them, and
although some of more fast acting than others, none is a gluten killer
at the 12 hour mark. I'd bet a super-fast starter, one that tends to
get hoochy fast, and is used at a higher proportion in the
pre-ferment, might wreck havoc.
Boron
Mary Fisher
"Dick Adams" <bad...@nonexist.net> wrote in message
news:zerCk.49504$Mh5....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
I could tell you one secret for making dough that lasts well through
a long sourdough rise, but you would not like it.
Try us!
Mary
Janet Bostwick
I'm talking about developing flavor, not especially 'sour.' What are you
aiming for? I prefer the nutty, wheaty tlavor over a very sour sourdough.
Janet
Boron Elgar
<nos...@cableone.net> wrote:
>Boron Elgar wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 05:42:36 -0600, "Janet Bostwick"
>> And I'd wonder about my starters, but I have a lot of them, and
>> although some of more fast acting than others, none is a gluten killer
>> at the 12 hour mark. I'd bet a super-fast starter, one that tends to
>> get hoochy fast, and is used at a higher proportion in the
>> pre-ferment, might wreck havoc.
>>
>> Boron
>
>I'm talking about developing flavor, not especially 'sour.' What are you
>aiming for? I prefer the nutty, wheaty tlavor over a very sour sourdough.
>Janet
>
I rarely deliberately seek a sour flavor, either. I, too, go for a
deeper wheat taste. The sour does not seem to arise from my
pre-ferments, but from my final proof. When I want a sour flavor for
the bread, I go for a very long final proof. Even then, only some of
my starters are capable of producing a real tang.
Boron
Stephen Peck
"Stephen Peck" <stephe...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:72gCk.2080$eb4...@flpi147.ffdc.sbc.com...
Janet Bostwick
Just about time for me to begin baking again. The cooler days of Fall are
here.
Janet