Sour pickles and vinegar mother?

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

The sour pickles turned out quite well. I'm not sure whether I like the
ones with or without pickling spices, they are both good. :-)

They are resting comfortably in my refrigerator.

Are the bacteria that makes them pickle the same ones that turn wine
into Vinegar? I have several liters of undrinkable wine that a friend
made. It was from very sweet grapes with a high acid content and he did
not notice how high the acid was until he fermented the juice and the
sweetness was gone.

I thought they would make good vinegar. What I lack is the "mother",
the bacterial colony that does the job. Can I put a little bit of
juice from the pickles in it to start it?

Thanks,

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel g...@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

[Kathi Jones]

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <g...@mendelson.com> wrote in message
news:slrnfc523...@cable.mendelson.com...

while I'm not totally knowledgeable about turning wine in to vinegar and the
science behind it all, I can say that I've tried it. I too had undrinkable
home brew in the basement and thought this would be a good idea. I actually
bought a vinegar mother from a brewing shop and followed the directions. I
didn't get good vinegar and ended up tossing the whole lot.

From what I have learned, you can't make good vinegar out of bad wine.

That's just my experience, and my 2 c worth,

Kathi

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

Kathi Jones wrote:
> while I'm not totally knowledgeable about turning wine in to vinegar and the
> science behind it all, I can say that I've tried it. I too had undrinkable
> home brew in the basement and thought this would be a good idea. I actually
> bought a vinegar mother from a brewing shop and followed the directions. I
> didn't get good vinegar and ended up tossing the whole lot.

Thanks, I won't be able to get a mother, no one here sells it and it
can not be shipped. That's why I was hoping to use the pickle juice
for the mother.

> From what I have learned, you can't make good vinegar out of bad wine.

Even if it comes out badly, it would be a good start for the mother (I
hope). If not, it was a "biology experiment". :-)

> That's just my experience, and my 2 c worth,

Thanks. Who knows, I may be lucky and come out with decent vinegar. :-)

[Kathi Jones]

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <g...@mendelson.com> wrote in message

news:slrnfc6kf...@cable.mendelson.com...

well, I hope someone can answer your question about the pickle
juice....couldn't hurt to try it with some of that bad wine anyway, right?
It's not like you're drinking it!! ;-)

Good luck! If you do try it, let me/us know how it turns out,
Kathi

[Brian Mailman]

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> The sour pickles turned out quite well. I'm not sure whether I like the
> ones with or without pickling spices, they are both good. :-)
>
> They are resting comfortably in my refrigerator.
>
> Are the bacteria that makes them pickle the same ones that turn wine
> into Vinegar?

Same whatchacallit (counting down kingdom, phylum, class, family,
however it goes).... lactobacillus. But different species.

Don't try it unless you want pickle-flavored vinegar.

I tried the something similar with kim chi/chee once. I had the sours
fermenting and started fermenting the napa cabbage. Then the weather
turned and I was afraid of it not catching. I put in a couple
tablespoons of brine from the cukes into the cabbage.

Yuck, yuck yuck.

B/

[mme...@nospam.iglou.com]

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:04:01 +0000 (UTC), g...@mendelson.com (Geoffrey
S. Mendelson) wrote:

>The sour pickles turned out quite well. I'm not sure whether I like the
>ones with or without pickling spices, they are both good. :-)
>
>They are resting comfortably in my refrigerator.
>
>Are the bacteria that makes them pickle the same ones that turn wine
>into Vinegar? I have several liters of undrinkable wine that a friend
>made. It was from very sweet grapes with a high acid content and he did
>not notice how high the acid was until he fermented the juice and the
>sweetness was gone.
>
>I thought they would make good vinegar. What I lack is the "mother",
>the bacterial colony that does the job. Can I put a little bit of
>juice from the pickles in it to start it?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Geoff.

Geoff,

I don't how it would work.

The bacteria in fermented pickles are turning the sugars in the
cucumbers into lactic acid

For vinegar, a differnet bacterium is converting alcohol into acetic
acid.

Are there any "health food" or "natural food" stores available that
might have unfiltered, unpasteurized apple cider vinegar that has the
mother in it? Might be the same, or similar enough, bacterium.

Alternatively, expose the wine to air and see what settles on it.

- Mark

[mme...@nospam.iglou.com]

After a little googling -

Leuconostoc mesenteroides is most likely the bacterium fermenting your
(and my) pickles.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e10.htm

Here's a link to an article on the cultivation and preservation of
vinegar bacteria (have to pay to see the entire article)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3C-3TDHK4B-6&_user=10&_coverDate=02%2F26%2F1998&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=990873c13e368a2250708f6cde61fe4b

Here's a link to Wikipedia's article on acetic acid bacteria with tips
on where to find it in nature (disclaimer - Wikipedia is NOT an
authoritative soucre of information on any subject!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid_bacteria

Another link

http://www.honeyflowfarm.com/newsletters/2006/winter/vinegarpage.htm

Hope some of this hepls!!

- Mark

[Robert Uhl]

g...@mendelson.com (Geoffrey S. Mendelson) writes:
>
> Are the bacteria that makes them pickle the same ones that turn wine
> into Vinegar?

Vinegar is created by acetobacter (literally, 'vinegar bacterium'); most
vegetable ferments are done by lactobacillus, leuconostoc, pediococcus &
streptococcus. The acid produced by acetobacter is acetic acid
(vinegar); that produced by lactobacillus is lactic acid. I'm not
certain if the other bacteria produce other acids, or also lactic acid.

> I have several liters of undrinkable wine that a friend made. It was
> from very sweet grapes with a high acid content and he did not notice
> how high the acid was until he fermented the juice and the sweetness
> was gone.
>
> I thought they would make good vinegar. What I lack is the "mother",
> the bacterial colony that does the job. Can I put a little bit of
> juice from the pickles in it to start it?

I doubt it. Try this: put half a cup of the wine into a wine bottle or
other glass container with a narrow mouth and shake it over an over
until you've aerated the hell out of it. Maybe even put in a teaspoon
of wine vinegar (not for the bacteria--it's probably pasteurised--but to
make the environment nice and acidic and inhospitable to anything but
acetobacter). Let it sit for about a week and then smell it; if it
smells vinegary, then it should be on its way. Add 1/2 cup of wine and
let sit for another week; by that time there should be a clear mother
forming on top. Add 1 cup of wine and let sit for a week. You should
now have two cups of vinegar in the bottle; top off and let sit however
long you like.

What I do is have two bottles: one is that starter bottle and one is the
ageing bottle. When the starter bottle gets full, I pour half the
ageing bottle off (into my normal vinegar bottle), then replace it with
half the starter bottle, doing my best not to get bits of mother or
sediment into it. In this way I come up with a decently clear vinegar.

You can start a white wine vinegar from a red wine; just use a small
amount of vinegar and/or vinegar mother. 1 ounce of red wine in 24
ounces of white wine isn't really noticeable--and four years from now
the amount still in the start bottle will be non-existent.

Watch out when making malt vinegar! Beer doesn't have a lot of alcohol
in it, and I don't believe it's as acidic as wine is either, so molds
will out-compete acetobacter unless you are careful. Start with half a
cup of white wine vinegar and add 1 oz. (1/8 cup) beer, wait a week or
more, add another oz. of beer, wait a week or more. Never add more beer
than _half_ the amount of vinegar in the bottle; never add beer too soon
after another addition. Once you have two cups of malt vinegar, it's
obviously a lot more forgiving if you're adding 1/2 cup at a time.

Make & age vinegar in a dark place without too many air currents. I
keep it on the top shelf of my pantry. Once you have a vinegar plant
going, you can just feed it the dregs every time you drink. I would not
recommend buying cheap wine to feed it, as cheap wine often has
sulfites, which inhibit microorganisms like acetobacter. I just toss in
a shot from each bottle of wine I drink--yup, that means my vinegar is
spendy stuff, but oh-so-good.

--
Robert Uhl <http://public.xdi.org/=ruhl>
`They didn't call him Erik Bloodaxe because he was good with children.'
--National Geographic, May 2000