Can anyone make a recommendation to me for a moderately priced Pinot?
I realize that prices vary with region. Here in DC ( and N. VA )
the prices seem to fall between $7.99 and about $18.99 a bottle
for Californian Pinot, and I find that I'm comfortable paying between
$10 and $13 a bottle.
Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thanks.
- Max
------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R. Herndon Security Technical Center
The MITRE Corporation
wher...@mitre.org ( 703 ) 883-6393
Any opinions expressed are my own.
Who else would want them?
I'm sure there are some good pinot noir available in northern America,
but due to a lack of tasting them, I can't comment more on this :>)
(by the way, wasn't there some big promises from Oregon Pinot Noir,
several years ago?)
Philippe
Philippe Bondono bon...@esonvm2.vnet.ibm.com
Dept 1032 Tel. (+33) 1 60 88 50 73
Lab. IBM de Corbeil-Essonnes Fax. (+33) 1 60 88 49 20
BP 58, 91105 Corbeil-Essonnes Cedex
France
Yes there were. I tried several and found most of them too young.
My wife felt that they were too tannic and showed too little fruit.
We recently opened a 1987 Kndusen Erath and I am quite pleased to report
that it was soft and moderately full in the mouth, with good fruit, some
cherry overtones and overall very nice balance. We had it with roast
duck and wild rice, so I'm reasonably sure that it holds up well against
strongly flavored foods. Unfortunately, I don't know the current price;
I believe that the price on this bottle was ~$12.
o
--- --- Lance F. Larsen
| //
| // att!mtfme!lfl
o |// o attmail!llarsen
|/
| (201)576-3346
---
o
- Blaine Stine -
st...@sdbio2.UCSD.edu
I must admit that Pinot Noir can have a special soft structure, clean
blueberry fruit, and complex earthy bouquet that makes it exciting from
a culinary standpoint, and makes it a special food match that cannot be
equalled by Cabernet, Zinfandel, or Rhone wines. When I long for a good
Pinot Noir, however, I remember all those high-priced bottles that have
surprised me with their funkiness, and instead select a Beaujolais.
About a year ago, the various Georges DuBoeuf cru Beaujolais wines from
1989 were selling for $8 to $14, and I found that I liked nearly all of
them, and that several were truly special. Eventually Safeway decided to
close them out for $5.88 and I bought two cases. I don't plan to buy any
Pinot Noir for a long time.
Currently the Georges DuBoeuf 1990 Beaujolais wines are selling for
$10-13. Although I haven't tried any of them, I expect that they will
offer everything that most people expect from Pinot Noir and more. These
wines are a much safer purchase because many Burgundies and California
Pinot Noirs have winemaking flaws and these wines do not.
Beaujolais may be the wine of peasants, but I think it is fabulous stuff
and urge you to give it a try.
Cheers!
Allan
Agreed that Beaujolais can be delicious stuff, but a substitute for pinot
noir??? You've got to be kidding.
From your comments, I must conclude that you simply do not appreciate what
pinot noir is all about. Nothing wrong with that--personal tastes vary.
But pinot noir is not about pure, squeaky-clean fruit. The "funkiness"
you refer to is a feature, not a bug (although, as with anyting else in
winemaking, it can be carried too far).
Pinot noir's biggest problem is that whatever part of the world it comes
from, finding a good one is a crapshoot. For real Burgundy, it's an
extremely expensive crapshoot.
--PSW
> Many people like the Saintsbury
>Garnet which is also around $12 but I find it a bit simple.
Saintsbury Garnet is not supposed to La Tache. It is more in the style
of a Cote de Beaune-Villages with lots of fresh cherry flavors. I just
checked my records and I've not paid over $7 for a bottle. Of course,
I shop at discount stores in California -- your mileage may vary. By
my reckoning, Garnet is an excellent value at $7. At $12, it is merely
an average value.
If you want good California Pinot Noir, the Chalone group (Chalone,
Acacia, and Edna Valley for Pinot Noir) produces some very good ones
in different styles and price ranges.
--
Stephen Kurtzman | "I would like to be a person who does not judge
kurt...@pollux.usc.edu | Free to be me whatever that might be
| I don't want to hold a position,
| don't want to hold a grudge" -- Terre Roche
The August Connoisseurs' Guide to California Wines focuses on Pinot Noir.
They liked the '89 Dehlinger (CA, two puffs), '88 Domaine Drouhin (OR, three
puffs, $++!), and '88 ZD (CA, two puffs). Amongst '88 Calera, they gave the
Reed two puffs, one puff for both the Mills and Jensen-- oddly, the Sellick
was ommitted. Some of the Caleras are now up to $35 at retail, sadly. Of
these, I've only tasted the Calera Jensen-- it reminds me a bit of squid
ink.
--
Scott Rose
ro...@cs.wisc.edu
(608) 238-3801
>all...@hpmwtd.HP.COM (Allan Armstrong) writes:
>|>
>|>Beaujolais may be the wine of peasants, but I think it is fabulous stuff
>|>and urge you to give it a try.
>
>Agreed that Beaujolais can be delicious stuff, but a substitute for pinot
>noir??? You've got to be kidding.
>
>From your comments, I must conclude that you simply do not appreciate what
>pinot noir is all about. Nothing wrong with that--personal tastes vary.
>But pinot noir is not about pure, squeaky-clean fruit. The "funkiness"
>you refer to is a feature, not a bug (although, as with anyting else in
>winemaking, it can be carried too far).
I'll happily agree; I simply do not appreciate what Pinot Noir is all
about. I like the soft blueberry fruit, and there are occasionally some
exciting bottles, but most fall so far short. Some have interesting
earthy or smoky bouquets, but I find that wines from St. Julien or
Chateauneuf-du-Pape have much more exciting bouquets. As for Beaujolais,
I find that it offers much more than just pure, squeaky clean fruit, at
least when you choose your wine from Morgon, Moulin-a-Vent, or one of
the more ponderous of the ten Crus.
>Pinot noir's biggest problem is that whatever part of the world it comes
>from, finding a good one is a crapshoot. For real Burgundy, it's an
>extremely expensive crapshoot.
I agree entirely, and this is much of the reason that I have a bad
attitude about Pinot Noir. There are many alternatives, such as
Moulin-a-Vent or Chateauneuf-du-Pape where chooosing a wine is not a
crapshoot at all. Sure, Rhone wines do not have the soft structure of
Pinot Noir, so they do not make for a "pin-for-pin" replacement, and
Beaujolais is not identical either, but I like these wines better.
I have had many excellent California Pinots and a few supposedly
ponderous Burgundies, but most of these have left me wondering "what's
the point?" Why are Pinot Noirs so exciting?
Given the price of Burgundy these days, I hope I will never
"understand." Learning to appreciate white Rhones was a big enough
mistake. I don't need another.
Cheers!
Allan
The cheaper ones are often fairly simple but can have lots of delicious
pinot character: try Wynn's, or Wyndham Estate. Inferior examples can
taste like strawberry pastilles---this might have something to do with
the winemaking. (They can also taste like rotten leaves in cold tea.)
There are some carbonic maceration wines which are good for picnics.
For something with more weight and complexity, you may have to pay
over A$20. I've enjoyed Coldstream Hills and Mountadam; I think these
are wines worth laying down for a little while. These producers often
copy Burgundian methods quite slavishly (to the point of stripping
naked and jumping into the vat?) but the results are comparable to a
pretty good premier cru wine. In my opinion.
Vintages make a difference (eg '89 was not great in Coonawarra) but
producers are usually quite enlightened and charge what they think
the wine is worth. In any case, complete washouts are rare.
Actually, one of the loveliest bottles of Australian pinot noir I've
tasted was a McWilliam's `Sparkling Burgundy' (it wouldn't be called
that in the EC). Deep ruby, with a seductive nose, creamy mousse,
some soft, wispy tannins and piles of gorgeous pinot fruit. The label
advised you to keep it for a couple of years, but I'm sure no-one
would have the willpower. The base wine for decent sparkling burgundy
is usually red wine with several years' bottle age anyway.
Non-Australians seem to be put off by the idea.
Incidentally, Avery's had some '76 red burgundies which are just plain
Bourgogne pinot noir, with mysterious codenames like `Simon d'Antigny'
or `Suzanne le Goux'. I bought a couple for about A$35 a bottle; turned
out to be the delicious, gamey sort of old burgundy you read about in
books. Does anyone know if there's a story behind these? The bloke in
the wine shop claimed they were `declassified Vosne', which presumably
has something to do with complicated French wine laws. If it's true.
Craig
The availability of Australian wines in Boston (and New Hampshire) is
quite good nowadays. The NH Liquor Store behind the Burlington
coat factory has an excellent selection at good prices. I find that
a wine that sells in Australia for (circa) $A10 is available over here
for about $US7.50. So the prices are about the same.
Joel.
>In article <1991Aug20.0...@wam.umd.edu>
>bra...@webb.psych.ufl.edu (Marc Branch) writes:
>Incidentally, Avery's had some '76 red burgundies which are just plain
>Bourgogne pinot noir, with mysterious codenames like `Simon d'Antigny'
>or `Suzanne le Goux'. I bought a couple for about A$35 a bottle; turned
I've never heard of these! What is the name of the negociant who sells
them (with such names, it can be produced by anything else than a
negociant :>)
>out to be the delicious, gamey sort of old burgundy you read about in
>books. Does anyone know if there's a story behind these? The bloke in
>the wine shop claimed they were `declassified Vosne', which presumably
>has something to do with complicated French wine laws. If it's true.
This is usually the argument someone say to sell you the worst part of
its production: "you know this vin de table (11degree) is just a grand
cru classe that has been declassified a part of its production, because of
administrative problems (or because he will pay too much taxes!! etc...)"
The second argument is usually the neighbourhood of a well known estate:
"you know, this wine has been produced ONLY a 100 meters far from the
Romanee Conti. And God only knows why it can't be called Romanee Conti!"
The practice of declassified wine is nowadays (theoretically) prohibited.
At least as it used to be practiced: in France, the appellations system
impose a maximal amount of wine to be produced on a given area. This
amount varees depending on the appellation. For instance for a 1st
classified growth of the me'doc, it must be 40hl/ha if I remember well
(sorry, I don't know how much gallons/acre it would make!).
In Burgundy, things are specially hard to deal with, because the same wine
could be declassified in sub-classes wines.
Let's take an example: Mr Dupont has got (lucky man) some vines of the
Romanee Conti (impossible in fact, it belongs to just one estate!). For
a given year he must not produce more than 40hl/ha of wine. If he produces
80hl/ha, he can sell 40hl as Romanee Conti, then 20hl as Vosne-Romanee
(Vosne Romanee as a "simple" village may produce more than a grand cru)
then 20hl as Bourgogne. Interesting, no? The problem is that someone
who buy the Bourgogne makes probably a good bargain, but someone who
buy Romanee Conti buys a wine with degraded quality compared to what
he may expect (especially given the price for such a bottle).
This sort of thing can't be done now. The whole crop must be declassified
if the maximum authorized has been exceeded (in theory, of course!).
The final word of the story is that the decisive argument must be your
own taste: if you find the wine good enough (and the price asked for
quite fair), then go and buy it!
Sante'
Philippe
1. Pinots
In article <1275...@hpmwnpd2.HP.COM> the good Allan Armstrong writes:
|
| I have had many excellent California Pinots and a few supposedly
| ponderous Burgundies, but most of these have left me wondering
| "what's the point?" Why are Pinot Noirs so exciting?
Indeed good Burgundies are expensive and you have to know what you are
doing (thank God, or they would be even more expensive, the Parkers of
the world and their slavish philistine disciples snapping them up by
number, and driving the prices even further). But I can tell you that
they can be worth it.
It is only very recently (10 years or so) that significant numbers of
notable Pinots have been produced in the United States. The grape has a
legacy of being far more difficult and unsuccessful here than, say,
Cabernet Sauvignon or Chardonnay. To really see what Pinot is about, it
is essential to experience good Burgundies.
Burgundy has, unlike Bordeaux, an almost uniquely respected articulate
chronicler in English -- H. W. Yoxall, whose _Wines of Burgundy_ first
went into print about the time of the Great War, 75 years ago, and was
still in print when I bought my second copy five years ago (in paperback).
It is not hard to find. Yoxall himself updated it for something like 65
years and may still be doing so for all I know, as he seemed to be made
of long-lived stock (by 1915 he was already a respected writer and editor).
To some extent Andre' Simon's book filled a similar role for Bordeaux,
but popular writing on that region has always been more diffuse (witness
the current flood of American me-too yuppie-winewriter books, as though the
region were not already capably covered by people of depth and experience).
2. Beaujolais
Allan goes on to comment accurately that good Burgundies tend to be very
expensive. Circa 1973, Alexis Bespaloff in his _Guide to Inexpensive
Wines_ fulminated about the alleged games Burgundian growers would use
to push up the grape prices ("Last year it was frost that justified
holding back production. This year it was hail. What will it be next
year?" "Locusts," the vigneron replied without hesitation.)
I too enjoy good Beaujolais when they are light and fruity and casual.
However they are more diverse wines than that and there is a side to them
that many American wine enthusiasts have not had the pleasure of seeing.
When vinified for substantial extract and tannin, in a suitable year,
the heavier Beauj. subregions (usually Morgon and Moulin-a-Vent) can
yield very substantial, concentrated, rich, velvety wines (they actually
have a lot of minerals and glycerin in them, like good Burgundies --
leave a bowl with some serious wine out to evaporate and you will be
surprised at how much is "left" when the water and alcohol are gone).
Beaujolais of this type can age beneficially for 10 years or more. I
remember some 1976s that I bought when I lived in Boston and they were
like nectar for the gods at 4-5 years old. That was an unusually good
vintage for the type (so was 1971). But I understand that, along with
vintage variation, there is pressure not to vinify "serious" Beauj's of
this type because the market favors light, fruity, pasteurized, filtered
wines. Anyway my point is that there is a class of Beauj's that overlap
in weight and complexity the serious Burgundies -- this is not what
Beaujolais is known for (comparing the two wines is like comparing figs
with peaches -- with all the absurdity implicit in claiming that one is
"better" than the other) -- but it is what Beaujolais is capable of.
There is one old-fashioned Beaujolais shipper that Kermit Lynch imports
-- I have not bought any of them for several years, but perhaps someone
will know the name -- Kent, you were there in Beaujolais and ran into
Lynch in the winery, didn't you, when he gave you his card? -- whose
wines emphasize weight and unfashionable unfiltered ageability.
Max W. Hauser prls!m...@mips.com {mips,philabs,pyramid}!prls!max
--
"You have heard the news: excommunicated. Come and dine to console me.
Everyone refuses me fire and water; so we will eat nothing but cold
glazed meats and drink only chilled wines."
-- Talleyrand (Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-Pe'rigord), in a letter
to his friend the Duc de Lauzun, 1791. Source: _Larousse Gastronomique_,
1961 edition (but missing, like so many other tidbits, from the new 1988
sanitized edition praised to the skies by the yup crowd).
As to quality of great burgundies, I would stack up the finest one in my memory
(1937 Musigny Vogue) against any Bordeaux I've had (including 1929 Latour).
Getting modern Burgundies of great quality that have not been spoiled
in the vinification is real tough and an overly expensive hobby.
Thgere are far more informative books on Burgundy now than the Yoxall one,
not all written by people of short experience and shallow understanding.
Could this be M. Lapierre? His 1989 Morgon is a wonderfully earthy, even
clay-like wine, with some complex spice notes much in the style of the
Mondavi Reserve Pinot Noirs. Kermit Lynch sells it for about $14.
Allan
Below is a list of Wine Spectator Pinot's from California that
rated 85 or above and are between $10-15 retail (usually cheaper
in the store).
rank Winery & Appellation year Varietal cost issue
92 Carneros Creek Los Carneros 86 Pinot Noir $14.50 Dec 31, 88
92 J. Rochioli Russian River 85 Pinot Noir $12.50 Jun 15, 88
92 Saintsbury Carneros 86 Pinot Noir $14 Jun 15, 88
91 Zaca Mesa Santa B. Res 86 Pinot Noir $15 Jun 15, 88
91 Saintsbury Carneros 88 Pinot Noir $15 Dec 15, 90
90 Wild Horse Paso Robles 87 Pinot Noir $14 Oct 15, 89
90 Caymus Special Select 85 Pinot Noir $15 Dec 31, 88
90 Gary Farrell Russian Riv 86 Pinot Noir $15 Jun 15, 88
89 Gundlach Bundschu Rhinefarm 86 Pinot Noir $10 Jun 15, 88
89 Kistler Dutton Ranch 86 Pinot Noir $13.50 Jun 15, 88
89 Roche Carneros 88 Pinot Noir $14 Dec 31, 89
89 Monticello Napa Valley 86 Pinot Noir $12 Jun 15, 88
89 La Crema California 86 Pinot Noir $12 Dec 31, 88
89 J. Rochioli Russian River 87 Pinot Noir $15 May 31, 90
89 Acacia Carneros 88 Pinot Noir $14 Feb 28, 91
88 Gundlach Bundschu Rhinefarm 88 Pinot Noir $12 Feb 28, 91
88 Gainey Santa Barbara 86 Pinot Noir $15 Dec 15, 89
88 Newlan Napa Valley 85 Pinot Noir $12 Jun 15, 88
88 Dehlinger Russian Riv 86 Pinot Noir $13 May 31, 89
88 Mondavi Napa Valley 87 Pinot Noir $12 Jul 31, 89
88 Richardson Sangiacomo 87 Pinot Noir $12 Oct 15, 89
88 Whitehall Lane Napa Valley 87 Pinot Noir $12 Oct 15, 89
87 Clos Du Bois Sonoma County 86 Pinot Noir $11 Oct 15, 89
87 H. Rochioli Russian River 86 Pinot Noir $14.25 Oct 15, 89
87 Page Mill Bien Nacido Vin 85 Pinot Noir $12.50 Jun 15, 88
87 Richardson Sangiacomo 86 Pinot Noir $12 Jun 15, 88
87 De Loach Russian River 86 Pinot Noir $12 May 31, 90
87 Greenwood Ridge Anderson Vl 89 Pinot Noir $13.50 Jun 30, 91
87 Schug Beckstoffer Vin 86 Pinot Noir $13 Oct 31, 90
87 Sterling Winery Lake 88 Pinot Noir $14 Apr 30, 91
86 Mondavi Napa Valley 89 Pinot Noir $15 Apr 30, 91
86 Richardson Sangiacomo 89 Pinot Noir $14 Apr 30, 91
86 Zaca Mesa S.Barb. Reserv 88 Pinot Noir $15.50 Oct 31, 90
86 Sinskey Napa Carneros 87 Pinot Noir $14 Mar 31, 90
86 Hacienda Sonoma Reserve 85 Pinot Noir $15 Jun 15, 88
86 Roudin-Smith Santa Cruz 85 Pinot Noir $15 Jun 15, 88
86 Caymus Special Sel 87 Pinot Noir $14 Dec 15, 90
86 Wild Horse Santa Barbara 85 Pinot Noir $12.50 Jun 15, 88
86 Bouchaine Napa Valley 86 Pinot Noir $12 May 31, 89
86 Saintsbury Carneros 87 Pinot Noir $15 Jul 31, 89
86 Thomas Fogarty Carneros 88 Pinot Noir $15 Feb 28, 91
86 Meridian Riverbench Vin 88 Pinot Noir $14 Feb 28, 91
85 Beaulieu Napa V. Reserv 89 Pinot Noir $13 Apr 30, 91
85 Navarro Method lAncienne87 Pinot Noir $14 Apr 30, 91
85 Rochioli Russian River 88 Pinot Noir $15 Oct 31, 90
85 Buena Vista Private Reserve 86 Pinot Noir $14 Mar 31, 90
85 Kistler Dutton Ranch 87 Pinot Noir $15 Mar 31, 90
85 Louis M. Martini Las Amigas 82 Pinot Noir $12 Mar 31, 90
85 Monticello Napa Valley 87 Pinot Noir $14.50 Oct 15, 89
85 Navarro Method a lAnci. 85 Pinot Noir $14 Feb 29, 89
85 Wild Horse Santa Barbara 86 Pinot Noir $13.50 Jun 15, 88
85 Byron S. Barb Reserv 87 Pinot Noir $16 Dec 15, 89
85 Pagor Santa Barbara 87 Pinot Noir $10.50 Dec 15, 89
I actually ran into Lynch in Gigondas in the Rhone Valley at Domain Cayron, not
in Beaujolais. I haven't gotten to Beaujolais yet...
maybe next trip,
Kent Headrick