Tea and metal
Dominic T.
but I have always done everything in my power to keep metal from
touching my tea in both storage and brewing. Such as boiling the water
in either an all glass whistler teakettle or in a ceramic coated metal
one. Not using a metal spoon to stir, no metal teaballs, glass tea
canisters... etc.
But a recent need to find storage containers for my tea (my other
thread from today) keeps coming up with tea tins, and canisters made of
metal primarily. Also many tea vendor's keep their tea in metal
canisters, or ship in a foil pouch.
Am I just crazy, or is there some logic to the "no metal" theory? If
metal is OK, which are the best? Stainless, Tin, Copper, Silver,
Aluminum?
- Dominic
Richard Herring
Dominic T. <dominic...@gmail.com> wrote
>I'm not sure how or where it started (most likely I read it in a book)
>but I have always done everything in my power to keep metal from
>touching my tea in both storage and brewing. Such as boiling the water
>in either an all glass whistler teakettle or in a ceramic coated metal
>one. Not using a metal spoon to stir, no metal teaballs, glass tea
>canisters... etc.
>
>But a recent need to find storage containers for my tea (my other
>thread from today) keeps coming up with tea tins, and canisters made of
>metal primarily. Also many tea vendor's keep their tea in metal
>canisters, or ship in a foil pouch.
>
>Am I just crazy, or is there some logic to the "no metal" theory?
You're half crazy ;-)
Some metals will react with some combinations of water, air, salts and
acids. (Also other metals; dissimilar metals plus water with anything
dissolved in it that makes it electrically conductive are a recipe for
rapid electrolytic corrosion.) Others don't.
>If
>metal is OK, which are the best? Stainless,
It's formulated to be non-reactive.
>Tin,
A thin plating of tin on steel to prevent it reacting with the contents
used to be the basis of "tin" cans. You only get problems if the tin
wears away, exposing the base metal and facilitating electrolytic
corrosion. I'd guess most "tin" tea containers are this kind of
tinplate.
>Copper,
Quite reactive.
>Silver,
Reacts with sulphur (don't use silver spoons on S-rich eggs.) Apart from
that, it's probably not very reactive.
>Aluminum?
Paradoxically, so reactive that it's not a problem. Pure Al on exposure
to air almost instantly forms a layer of oxide. That's the same
substance we meet in other forms as ruby and sapphire, so it's
practically inert. It's a similar process which makes stainless steel
unreactive, though in that case the component which oxidises is
chromium.
I think I'd apply a simple subjective chemical test: rub a wet thumb
over the metal and then taste it. That would certainly rule out copper,
but not the others.
--
Richard Herring <mailto:ric...@clupeid.demon.co.uk>
Dominic T.
Richard Herring wrote:
> In article <1140203222.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> You're half crazy ;-)
Thanks Richard, I appreciate it! I remember reading (I believe in a few
places) about the bad stigma around letting metal touch the water or
tea during brewing, but most likely it was an ancient Japanese or
Chinese text about tea and it may have been more time specific (no
stainless back then) than still applies today. I think I may go for
stainless or tin if it is sure to not react. It's going to be hard to
break my habits though and I'm sure it will make me wince when I pour
my tea into their new metal homes. It's been 10 years or so of no
metal.
If you don't mind me asking, how do you store your teas? I woul dlike
to hear how everyone else does it to get some ideas.
Thanks again,
- Dominic
Richard Herring
Dominic T. <dominic...@gmail.com> wrote
>
>Richard Herring wrote:
>> In article <1140203222.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
>> You're half crazy ;-)
>
>Thanks Richard, I appreciate it! I remember reading (I believe in a few
>places) about the bad stigma around letting metal touch the water or
>tea during brewing, but most likely it was an ancient Japanese or
>Chinese text about tea and it may have been more time specific (no
>stainless back then) than still applies today. I think I may go for
>stainless or tin if it is sure to not react. It's going to be hard to
>break my habits though and I'm sure it will make me wince when I pour
>my tea into their new metal homes. It's been 10 years or so of no
>metal.
>
>If you don't mind me asking, how do you store your teas?
Nothing special. Some are in the bags they came in (mostly Ronnefeldt
plasticised paper, a couple of Thai oolongs and Japanese senchas in
metallised plastic), some I decant into in ancient Jacksons of
Piccadilly 125-gram cans and some into cardboard drums that formerly
held Clipper green tea.
>I woul dlike
>to hear how everyone else does it to get some ideas.
>
--
Richard Herring <mailto:ric...@clupeid.demon.co.uk>
Barky Bark
contact with the water she boils for her tea. Maybe together you can design
a teapot made of wood.
Dominic T.
Heh, that one actually got a laugh out of me. :)
I really wish I could think of where the no metal thing came from, it
has been at least 10 years I've stuck to it religiously. It seems
silly, but like I said before stainless and such it may have been true.
I tend to heat the water in my glass tea kettle and then brew in my
Yixing, or in my chinese ceramic infuser mug. So no wooden teapots for
me... yet.
psyf...@yahoo.com
> I'm not sure how or where it started (most likely I read it in a book)
> but I have always done everything in my power to keep metal from
> touching my tea in both storage and brewing. Such as boiling the water
> in either an all glass whistler teakettle or in a ceramic coated metal
> one. Not using a metal spoon to stir, no metal teaballs, glass tea
> canisters... etc.
Mee too for some years until all that titanium stuff for ultralight
hiking turned up. So some years
ago I took the plunge and aquired all sorts of TI gear for my hikes and
travels and even back
"home" use them for my teas.
Ti is absolutely taste neutral and compared to glass transducts heat
from the stove far better. As
I use this stuff on a daily basis and it's supposed to last a lifetime
I don't care about the price too
much.
> But a recent need to find storage containers for my tea (my other
> thread from today) keeps coming up with tea tins, and canisters made of
> metal primarily. Also many tea vendor's keep their tea in metal
> canisters, or ship in a foil pouch.
I keep my teas in those aluminized foil bags I get here in Darjeeling.
The outer and inner layers
are PE with a thin layer of aluminum foil sandwiched in between that
keeps the flavour inside the
bag. Compared to storing teas in the standard tins you can get rid of
most of the air in those bags
- reduce oxidation of your teas to some extent. I store those bags
inside all kinds of cheap
no-name indian stainless steel tins.
> Am I just crazy, or is there some logic to the "no metal" theory? If
> metal is OK, which are the best? Stainless, Tin, Copper, Silver,
> Aluminum?
My (limited) personal experiences when it comes to brewing:
Stainless steel : no good, depending on the specific alloy SS can
considerably change the taste
Tin, Copper: yuck, fuggedaboutem
Silver (plated): interesting effects, I always travel with my old 8oz
silver pot and use it a lot for my Darjeelings. Compared to
ceramics/porcellain (neutral) IMO it slightly enhances the sweeter
notes of DJ teas, in a direct comparison I also found - as always YMMV
- that my beloved 2nd flush Muscatels get a bit of a flavour boost,
like the spectrum gets a bit spread or deepened or whatever.
Aluminum: terrible offtaste in the pots (hiking gear) I tried
When it comes to storage I'd be more concerned about all that
superfluous air/oxygen in those tins than the metal they're made of, as
long as the don't smell, are really airtight and the tea inside them is
reasonably dry (3-5% H2O).
I can't recommend those sandwiched aluminum foil bags highly enough,
nothing but good experiences with them, stored in a tin they'll keep
your leaves relatively fresh for a long time.
Again just my 1.5 cts,
Karsten / Darjeeling
Pat
Dominic T. wrote:
>
> Am I just crazy, or is there some logic to the "no metal" theory? If
> metal is OK, which are the best? Stainless, Tin, Copper, Silver,
> Aluminum?
>
> - Dominic
I use a stainless steel teapot and a stainless steel kettle and have
never had any problem with a metallic taste in my tea. I have had that
problem when using one of those perforated tea eggs. I'd be willing to
bet that a lot depends on the quality of the vessel being used; i.e., a
cheap metal pot probably will affect the taste, whereas a better
quality one will not.
DogMa
>> I'm not sure how or where it started (most likely I read it in a book)
>> but I have always done everything in my power to keep metal from
>> touching my tea in both storage and brewing. Such as boiling the water
>> in either an all glass whistler teakettle or in a ceramic coated metal
>> one. Not using a metal spoon to stir, no metal teaballs, glass tea
>> canisters... etc.
Most metal in contact with brewed tea will passivate quickly due to
buildup of a polymer film. I use metal screens in several of my pots,
and let the brown scum build up.
>> Also many tea vendor's keep their tea in metal
>> canisters, or ship in a foil pouch.
It's usually not foil, but a metallized polymer film and unlikely to
react - for one thing, the metal is often encapsulated.
>> Am I just crazy, or is there some logic to the "no metal" theory?
Not crazy, but probably over-reacting. I agree about the copper, and
iron alloys that rust can make horrible tastes. Others should be fine.
The suggested rub-test is wise. Try it on a pocketful of keys or a few
tools or pieces of flatware - most won't smell much at all; copper
alloys tend to stink. Having said that, dry tea won't react with
anything, so it's only a problem on storage if there's steady
outgassing. Unless your water is far off neutral pH, it's not likely to
extract much metal from normal vessels.
>> Tin,
>
> A thin plating of tin on steel to prevent it reacting with the contents
> used to be the basis of "tin" cans.
They haven't used tin for a long time - it's zinc. Not very inert, but
not much taste either.
I recommend gold or high-karat gold alloys.
-DM
toci
adds any taste to the water or tea, I brew in china, other ceramic, or
glass, but very occasionally I use an aluminum infusor. I'm a bit
skeptical of the aluminum. Toci
Scott Dorsey
>
>I really wish I could think of where the no metal thing came from, it
>has been at least 10 years I've stuck to it religiously. It seems
>silly, but like I said before stainless and such it may have been true.
It makes perfect sense in a world where bronze and cast iron are the
typical metals.
Stainless should be fine (although I'll say that stainless steel is not
one thing, but actually three different families of metal alloys, some
of which are more nonreactive than others).
Of course, the water has come to you through pipes of iron, copper, PVC,
asbestos-tar, and maybe even clay. It's too late now to avoid all contact
with metals.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Dominic T.
Scott Dorsey wrote:
> It makes perfect sense in a world where bronze and cast iron are the
> typical metals.
Yeah, although I had never taken into consideration when the text was
written before. ;) I guess my crayons didn't come with a sharpener.
> Of course, the water has come to you through pipes of iron, copper, PVC,
> asbestos-tar, and maybe even clay. It's too late now to avoid all contact
> with metals.
Actually I use water from my water cooler which is ceramic lined and
comes straight from a PA spring to the bottling plant to my cooler. I'm
sure it may touch metal somewhere in its journey, but very little.
This thread got me to think it through more though and it has helped a
ton, I'm sure it will still take me time to break old habits. Thanks
all!
- Dominic
Drinking: Foo Joy Oolong
Darawen Littlestich
I noticed you were drinking FOO JOY OOLONG. I saw a canister at Ranch 99
yesterday but failed to purchase it. Do you like it and is it worth getting
a tin?
thanks
Dominic T.
Darawen Littlestich wrote:
> Dominic-
> I noticed you were drinking FOO JOY OOLONG. I saw a canister at Ranch 99
> yesterday but failed to purchase it. Do you like it and is it worth getting
> a tin?
> thanks
I like Foo Joy tea in general, it is very inexpensive and decent
quality. I like the Foo Joy Wuyi Oolong teabags. My fiance likes the
Foo Joy Lichee Black, but I can't stand it personally. YMMV.
- dominic
Scott Dorsey
I don't have a lot of respect for the Foojoy teas, but I suspect that
they probably sell various different grades of similar teas. I can say
that the Foojoy oolong that sells for $7/25 lbs. at the Chinese grocery
and is served by lots of Chinese restaurants is very poor stuff. Maybe
that has just put me off the whole brand.
Lewis Perin
> [...]
>
> I don't have a lot of respect for the Foojoy teas, but I suspect that
> they probably sell various different grades of similar teas. I can say
> that the Foojoy oolong that sells for $7/25 lbs. at the Chinese grocery
> and is served by lots of Chinese restaurants is very poor stuff. Maybe
> that has just put me off the whole brand.
Seven dollars for twenty-five pounds? Can that be right?
/Lew
---
Lew Perin / pe...@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
Scott Dorsey
>klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
>> [...]
>>
>> I don't have a lot of respect for the Foojoy teas, but I suspect that
>> they probably sell various different grades of similar teas. I can say
>> that the Foojoy oolong that sells for $7/25 lbs. at the Chinese grocery
>> and is served by lots of Chinese restaurants is very poor stuff. Maybe
>> that has just put me off the whole brand.
>
>Seven dollars for twenty-five pounds? Can that be right?
It's correct, but it's not _right_. Not if you like good tea anyway.
Dominic T.
Scott Dorsey wrote:
> It's correct, but it's not _right_. Not if you like good tea anyway.
As I've said before, I enjoy tea. I enjoy the whole process and culture
surrounding tea. I'm not above enjoying a "common" tea if it is decent.
Foo Joy is a low priced, lower quality tea, but some of it can be
enjoyable and to simply dismiss it is a bit silly. There is a reason
that so many Chinese Restaurants use it, besides just cost. If it were
terrible they wouldn't use it. For $1.99 for 200 teabags it is a good
value and a decent tea. No more no less. The Foo Joy Jasmine green tea
is very passable and makes a killer iced tea.
As an example: Kukicha (aka Twig tea) was considered the poor workers
tea and not given a second thought. It was junk... and now? Some is
highly prized, it is an "enthusiast's tea" and is easily compared to
some of the highest quality Senchas.
Don't be so quick to turn up your nose and extend that pinky finger,
sometimes the peasant quietly holds the true fortune all for himself.
Same as fine dining, rustic (read poor folks) French, Italian, and
Cambodian/Thai food hold the top honors across the world as the best.
- Dominic
Drinking: Sea Dyke Brand Oolong (0.99 cents a box)
Michael Plant
[Dominic]
> As I've said before, I enjoy tea. I enjoy the whole process and culture
> surrounding tea. I'm not above enjoying a "common" tea if it is decent.
> Foo Joy is a low priced, lower quality tea, but some of it can be
> enjoyable and to simply dismiss it is a bit silly. There is a reason
> that so many Chinese Restaurants use it, besides just cost. If it were
> terrible they wouldn't use it. For $1.99 for 200 teabags it is a good
> value and a decent tea. No more no less. The Foo Joy Jasmine green tea
> is very passable and makes a killer iced tea.
>
> As an example: Kukicha (aka Twig tea) was considered the poor workers
> tea and not given a second thought. It was junk... and now? Some is
> highly prized, it is an "enthusiast's tea" and is easily compared to
> some of the highest quality Senchas.
>
> Don't be so quick to turn up your nose and extend that pinky finger,
> sometimes the peasant quietly holds the true fortune all for himself.
> Same as fine dining, rustic (read poor folks) French, Italian, and
> Cambodian/Thai food hold the top honors across the world as the best.
[Michael]
Dominic, two things strike me in your post above: First, your reference to
Kukicha, which is of course right on the money. I add my favorite example in
this rich man/poor man dichotomy -- again, I know ya'll heard me on this
before -- of the black sturgeon fish eggs found in the Caspian sea, where
the people in the northern end of the sea prized them above all other food
while only the poorest of people at the southern end bothered with it, it
being the poor man's food there. So much for objectivity.
It's a lot like music: The dopiest thing in the world is criticizing others'
music. The idea of music supercedes which music any one person plays,
sings, or listens to. My music is better than your music is just plain dumb.
This does not mean that an intellectual conversation can't be a good one.
Second, and I quote you, "I enjoy tea. I enjoy the whole process and culture
surrounding tea." I could not have said that better myself, and with me it
goes right to choosing waters, and how I heat them; and pots and gaiwans,
how they look with the other stuff, not to mention how they brew tea. Some
might say I overdo it. Some might say it matters little with a klutz like
me.
Michael
Dominic T.
Michael Plant wrote:
> I add my favorite example in
> this rich man/poor man dichotomy -- again, I know ya'll heard me on this
> before -- of the black sturgeon fish eggs found in the Caspian sea, where
> the people in the northern end of the sea prized them above all other food
> while only the poorest of people at the southern end bothered with it, it
> being the poor man's food there. So much for objectivity.
I grew up pretty poor. I had a tough life and had a lot of hurdles to
overcome, but through it all we always managed to have fun and happy
times. Growing up as I have you learn to do a lot with a little and you
really learn to appreciate what is truly important in life. I also am a
student of life, I try to learn from everything and my experiences.
When you walk through some of the poorest neighborhoods and slums you
find some of the biggest smiles, and when you attend a big black-tie
affair you see some of the unhappiest people alive. I've managed to
succeed in life (so far, I'm still young) but I hold true to my values
and the wisdom I've gained so far and I continue to learn. On a
philosophical level I have also learned a lot from the Tao Te Ching and
Taoist works as well as texts like "The Book of Tea."
> and with me it
> goes right to choosing waters, and how I heat them; and pots and gaiwans,
> how they look with the other stuff, not to mention how they brew tea. Some
> might say I overdo it. Some might say it matters little with a klutz like
> me.
I share that same passion and adventure, and I think that is what it
truly comes down to. To think of the history of a Chinese worker who
carries his Yixing teapot in his pack and uses it daily for his entire
life and hand it down for generations to come, when I am brewing tea in
mine is what makes it such a great experience. You can't overdo it. It
takes you away to a happy time and place to put effort and
concentration into the process, and is no different than any other form
of entertainment or escapism. And unlike most other forms it has an
extremely deep and rich history and culture that branches out into so
many more areas. Where I work people tend to poke fun of me about my
tea (why don't I just drink coffee like everyone else?!?), and I could
never hope to explain just what it is all about, nor would they care.
That is why I was so happy to find this newsgroup and folks like you
who understand and can share and enjoy this little leaf as much as
myself.
- Dominic
Michael Plant
11:06domini...@gmail.com
There is perhaps an interesting discussion here as to whether, and/or to
what degree, we are blessed in the West with so many many types and styles
of tea to choose from. I think it makes us fickle. I drink hundreds of
different types of tea from all corners of the globe, but the Chinese worker
you refer to above has perhaps but one tea in his repetoire. Think about how
thoroughly he knows his lone tea. When I was in Afghanistan -- before the
Russians invaded, it being awhile ago -- I noticed how closely children
stuck to the occupations of their fathers. How different it is here. We can
do anything, and do. I'm not entirely convinced that this is an untarnished
good thing with tea or work. Anyway, it's a question.
Michael
Lewis Perin
> Lewis Perin <pe...@panix.com> wrote:
> >klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> I don't have a lot of respect for the Foojoy teas, but I suspect that
> >> they probably sell various different grades of similar teas. I can say
> >> that the Foojoy oolong that sells for $7/25 lbs. at the Chinese grocery
> >> and is served by lots of Chinese restaurants is very poor stuff. Maybe
> >> that has just put me off the whole brand.
> >
> >Seven dollars for twenty-five pounds? Can that be right?
>
> It's correct, but it's not _right_. Not if you like good tea anyway.
Wow. I've never been a lover of typical Chinese-restaurant oolong in
the US, but even so...
Lewis Perin
> Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > It's correct, but it's not _right_. Not if you like good tea anyway.
>
> As I've said before, I enjoy tea. I enjoy the whole process and
> culture surrounding tea. I'm not above enjoying a "common" tea if it
> is decent. Foo Joy is a low priced, lower quality tea, but some of
> it can be enjoyable and to simply dismiss it is a bit silly. There
> is a reason that so many Chinese Restaurants use it, besides just
> cost. If it were terrible they wouldn't use it.
Sorry, but you don't have to be much of a snob to reject that
reasoning. As the owner of a Chinese restaurant once explained to me,
the reason he didn't offer better teas to his customers was that they
were accustomed to getting the tea gratis. I try to remember to bring
my own tea when dining in a Chinese restaurant, and there's never been
any trouble about it.
Space Cowboy
from Foojoy, Xiamen for $7. I've never opened one up but mine smell
good. The one that still smells great is a ten year old Golden Dynasty
5lb sack of Jasmine. I wouldn't hesitate to use these if I could find
a pot big enough.
Jim
Scott Dorsey
>
>As I've said before, I enjoy tea. I enjoy the whole process and culture
>surrounding tea. I'm not above enjoying a "common" tea if it is decent.
>Foo Joy is a low priced, lower quality tea, but some of it can be
>enjoyable and to simply dismiss it is a bit silly. There is a reason
>that so many Chinese Restaurants use it, besides just cost. If it were
>terrible they wouldn't use it. For $1.99 for 200 teabags it is a good
>value and a decent tea. No more no less. The Foo Joy Jasmine green tea
>is very passable and makes a killer iced tea.
Well, the question is whether it IS one tea, or a whole bunch of different
grades of tea.
The stuff in the 25 pound bags is vile. But they might also sell some
perfectly good tea.
Dominic T.
Michael Plant wrote:
> I drink hundreds of
> different types of tea from all corners of the globe, but the Chinese worker
> you refer to above has perhaps but one tea in his repetoire. Think about how
> thoroughly he knows his lone tea. When I was in Afghanistan -- before the
> Russians invaded, it being awhile ago -- I noticed how closely children
> stuck to the occupations of their fathers. How different it is here. We can
> do anything, and do. I'm not entirely convinced that this is an untarnished
> good thing with tea or work. Anyway, it's a question.
One of the first times I ever started to think along this line was when
a close friends elderly grandfather was going through his things from
World War II with us when I was in high school. He had a number of
posessions that he kept from Japanese that he killed. The most profound
being, a pair of chopsticks. The chopsticks were so worn and had
countless teeth marks in them from years of use. It made them come
alive. No one keeps one pair of chopsticks for life anymore, heck in
America it's hard to find an actual pair of chopsticks period that
isn't for one-time use or disposable.
When I was in college I had become great friends with a Thai woman who
owned a small pan-asian grocery. She had her great-grandfather's Yixing
tepot and made tea for us from it all the time. It was like a magic
teapot, it had life, and character, and thousands of untold stories and
thousands of pounds of tea pass through it. All through this tiny pot
which again in modern day is not even thought about, heck who has time
for a teapot?
I think a lot of this is where most of our current crisis and problems
stems from. No one takes time to actually appreciate anything. It is
just a constant rush to fit as much in as possible or to aquire the
most stuff in the least amount of time. I'm from Italian heritage and I
hold dear the customs and traditions that have been passed down, and
plan on raising my children someday in those same ways as well as my
adopted asian culture. Slowing down, appreciation, history, education,
and such are all very important to life and to me.
- Dominic
(If I knew how to start a new thread from inside a thread I would)
crymad
Michael Plant wrote:
> Dominic, two things strike me in your post above: First, your
> reference to Kukicha, which is of course right on the money. I
> add my favorite example in this rich man/poor man dichotomy --
> again, I know ya'll heard me on this before -- of the black
> sturgeon fish eggs found in the Caspian sea, where the people
> in the northern end of the sea prized them above all other food
> while only the poorest of people at the southern end bothered
> with it, it being the poor man's food there. So much for
> objectivity.
Caviar, along with champagne and diamonds, is officially on my
black list. I've come to the conclusion that their enjoyment
stems mostly from their scarcity, and hence, exclusivity. Caviar
especially is an odd one. It might very well be tasty right out
of the sturgeon. But salted and canned and put on ice for weeks
before eventual smug indulgence?
> It's a lot like music: The dopiest thing in the world is
> criticizing others' music.
No dopier than criticizing others' choices in TV, movies, and
reading material.
--crymad
Michael Plant
> Michael Plant wrote:
>> Dominic, two things strike me in your post above: First, your
>> reference to Kukicha, which is of course right on the money. I
>> add my favorite example in this rich man/poor man dichotomy --
>> again, I know ya'll heard me on this before -- of the black
>> sturgeon fish eggs found in the Caspian sea, where the people
>> in the northern end of the sea prized them above all other food
>> while only the poorest of people at the southern end bothered
>> with it, it being the poor man's food there. So much for
>> objectivity.
>
> Caviar, along with champagne and diamonds, is officially on my
> black list. I've come to the conclusion that their enjoyment
> stems mostly from their scarcity, and hence, exclusivity. Caviar
> especially is an odd one. It might very well be tasty right out
> of the sturgeon. But salted and canned and put on ice for weeks
> before eventual smug indulgence?
No more caviar for you. I'm going to love it
when I grow up.
>> It's a lot like music: The dopiest thing in the world is
>> criticizing others' music.
>
> No dopier than criticizing others' choices in TV, movies, and
> reading material.
OK, I concede, but it's right up their with those on your list.
I just mentioned music because for me, like tea, it's so viceral.
Michael