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Caffeine content of tea

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WNW

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Nov 21, 2002, 11:03:21 PM11/21/02
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For those for whom the caffeine content of tea is a real concern, you might
consider checking out something on the Holy Mountain website:
http://www.holymtn.com/tea/teacaffeine.htm
They apparently had some of their teas tested in order to compare the
caffeine contents. What I found most surprising was that some of the white
teas, which I had always been told contained little or no caffeine, actually
contained as much or even more caffeine than several of the black teas!! So
I have to wonder where the other tea vendors, the ones who have claimed that
white teas are 'low' in caffeine, got their information.
The information they've posted about their Pu-Erh teas is also interesting
and surprising.

N.


Mirvhana

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Nov 21, 2002, 11:47:06 PM11/21/02
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| I have to wonder where the other tea vendors, the ones who have claimed
that
| white teas are 'low' in caffeine, got their information.

http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1715_10287145

WNW

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Nov 22, 2002, 12:29:57 AM11/22/02
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"Mirvhana" <Mirvhana...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:uFiD9.18956$H67....@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...

Hmmm.. and was that directed at me or at the 'other vendors'?

N.


Mirvhana

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Nov 22, 2002, 12:36:29 AM11/22/02
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| Hmmm.. and was that directed at me or at the 'other vendors'?
|

It's only a joke.

It was aimed a little at the vendors, and absolutly NOT at you.

Michael Plant

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Nov 22, 2002, 8:02:15 AM11/22/02
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WNWutrb7...@corp.supernews.com11/21/02 23:03dr...@hotmail.com


Yeah, that's amazing. Most types show a fairly wide spread, except the
whites which vary only by half a point from top to bottom. Other issues
might be how readily the caffeine releases to the body. (No I DON'T know
what that means.)

As to where vendors get their caffeine information, they probably make it
up, which usually works for me; but in this case a little integrity would go
a long way.

Correlations I'd like to see:

Caffeine to picking season.
Caffeine to leaf size -- how medial to bud
Caffeine to time steeped and to first, second, and third steep.

Michael


Justin

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Nov 22, 2002, 9:45:56 AM11/22/02
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Greens and blacks seem to have roughly the same caffeine content.
Interesting. I've found that blacks wake me up more and greens are
better for going to bed. I've even been drinking some white teas
before bed to no ill effect. I wonder how much of it is
psychological; that we are told certain teas are better at certain
times and therefore believe it?
--Justin

WNW

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Nov 22, 2002, 10:43:46 AM11/22/02
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"Justin" <jam...@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:dec0861.02112...@posting.google.com...

As Michael pointed out, with different kinds of tea, varying amounts of
caffeine might be released into the body or absorbed by the body. In these
tests, as I understand it, the leaves are pulverized then analyzed. Most of
us don't powder our tea leaves and then consume them -- we make an infusion
(matcha excepted). Still, I found the information posted to be quite
surprising and very interesting.

N.


WNW

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Nov 22, 2002, 10:44:30 AM11/22/02
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"Mirvhana" <Mirvhana...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:HnjD9.18959$H67....@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...

>
> | Hmmm.. and was that directed at me or at the 'other vendors'?
> |
>
> It's only a joke.
>
> It was aimed a little at the vendors, and absolutly NOT at you.
>

I thought so. ;) Space Cowboy is probably nodding in agreement -- many of
the vendors will say whatever helps them to sell tea, no matter whether it's
based in fact or not.

N.


Lewis Perin

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Nov 22, 2002, 11:23:46 AM11/22/02
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Michael Plant <mpl...@pipeline.com> writes:

> WNWutrb7...@corp.supernews.com11/21/02 23:03dr...@hotmail.com
>
> > [...surprising results from HolyMtn caffeine tests...]


>
> Yeah, that's amazing. Most types show a fairly wide spread, except the
> whites which vary only by half a point from top to bottom.

Here's a wild guess: Maybe the uniformity of whites is because they're
made from a vary narrow range of cultivars while other manufacturing
processes use lots of varietals.

> Other issues might be how readily the caffeine releases to the
> body.

Or it could be the countless other chemicals in tea liquor that might
potentiate or weaken the stimulative effect of the caffeine. To
varying degrees, of course...

/Lew
---
Lew Perin / pe...@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Michael Plant

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Nov 22, 2002, 11:48:55 AM11/22/02
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Lewis Perinpc7is...@panix1.panix.com11/22/02 11:23p...@panix.com


>> Yeah, that's amazing. Most types show a fairly wide spread, except the
>> whites which vary only by half a point from top to bottom.
>
> Here's a wild guess: Maybe the uniformity of whites is because they're
> made from a vary narrow range of cultivars while other manufacturing
> processes use lots of varietals.

That could well be.


>
>> Other issues might be how readily the caffeine releases to the
>> body.
>
> Or it could be the countless other chemicals in tea liquor that might
> potentiate or weaken the stimulative effect of the caffeine. To
> varying degrees, of course...

That's certainly plausible. I attribute the chemicals in coffee to the fact
that too much coffee upsets me in every way, but there's virtually no such
thing as too much tea.

Anyway, I find the Holy Mountain Data particularly interesting. And the stat
methodology drivel at the bottom of the page does inspire confidence, at
least to me.

Michael

Phil Hodge

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Nov 22, 2002, 12:34:45 PM11/22/02
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Michael Plant wrote:

> Correlations I'd like to see:
>
> Caffeine to picking season.
> Caffeine to leaf size -- how medial to bud
> Caffeine to time steeped and to first, second, and third steep.
>
> Michael

Here is an article posted by Matt Harbowy a few years ago that addresses
the third question.

Phil

Article: 10964 of rec.food.drink.tea
From: har...@ix.netcom.com (matthew e. harbowy)
Subject: Tea and caffeine (an update)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 03:20:17 GMT
Organization: ocha no kagakusha desu
Reply-To: ma...@teatime.com

(sent to r.f.d.t and teatime-list, visit http://www.teatime.com/social
for more info on the teatime-list mailing list on tea)

In a recent article in Food research International, Vol 29, 325-330
(1996), the content of caffeine in various teas and styles of brew
were compared.

One of the formosa oolongs had less caffeine than the green and black
teas on a dry weight basis, but when all were prepared to supplied
directions, they had similar caffeine levels. When brewed for a series
of three repeated brews, the caffeine concentration was higher in the
first brew for one of the other Formosa oolongs than other green,
black, and oolong teas. The caffeine content decreased dramatically
from the first to the third brew, about 50-70mg/cup in first cup,
15-25 in second, and 5-10 in third, each brew about 5 minutes in
length.

Bag teas had slightly less caffeine than loose teas. This could be due
to the use of broken and poorer quality leaves in bags.

Theobromine was also measured, which was very low: 1.5-3mg/cup for
first brew, 0.5-1 in second, 0.2-0.5 in third. Black teas had slightly
more thobromine, attributed to the fact that younger leaves have more
theobromine, and the young leaves are chosen for black tea production
due to higher polyphenol levels.

One other interesting result was that no (less than dection limit,
0.1mg/cup) theophylline was detected in any of the brews.

This paper was of interest to me because it challenges many of the
popular assertions about the caffeine content of teas. I will
reinforce previous assertions I have made about caffeine contents of
teas:

1. All teas have roughly similar caffeine contents, and one cannot
rely on the belief that green tea has less caffeine, as asserted by
many popular claims. One such claim is that degree of fermentation
governs caffeine content, with green having 1/3 and oolong having 2/3
the caffeine content of black tea. This has been debunked repeatedly
in this forum. Small differences in average caffeine contents of green
vesus black tea may be due to the use of China varietals for green and
Assam varietals for black, a line which comes closer to elimination
with indian green teas and darjoolongs. Another is the use of younger
or more mature leaves, where ther is some variation. Caffeine is a
product of the natural metabolism of RNA in the plant and thus will
vary with senescence. Some caffeine may also be made during
fermentation, but it is not a sufficiently orderly process to clearly
delineate such even multiples as 1/3, 2/3, etc. Fermentation time is
decided by taste and plantation experience, not by biochemistry, and
is not controlled to scientific tolerances.

2. Caffeine content does depend on brew technique and leaf size and
variety, and that without an accurate analysis as such available from
a qualified laboratory, one cannot assert that some teas have a lower
or greater caffeine dose.

3. One popular assertion suggests that tea can be decaffeinated by
brewing quickly and discarding the first brew. Since tea must be
decaffeinated greater than 90% to be considered decaf (and most
commercial decafs are >98% decaffeinated), the second brew, although
lower in caffeine, is *not* decaffeinated (65-75% of caffeine coming
out in the first five minute brew).

Making informed decisions about what is a suitable level of caffeine
in one's diet is a personal decision, and although doses of less than
200mg/day of caffeine have generally not been associated with health
risks, one should *always* consult with a doctor and *not* consider
any of this (or other literature) to be advice on your personal
health.

I urge the informed tea drinkers to be wary of advice on caffeine
levels in tea, particularly results which say that green or oolong tea
has less caffeine, and complain vociferously when such advice is given
to those misinformed tropes who ply such nonsense.

Thank you for your continued informed interest in this topic: please
do not reprint this in anything but electronic form.

matt
(ma...@teatime.com)
"I'm the bear that went over the mountain"
http://www.teatime.com/matt/

Kee-Huat

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Nov 23, 2002, 2:58:37 PM11/23/02
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Michael Plant <mpl...@pipeline.com> wrote in message news:<BA039507.E831%mpl...@pipeline.com>...
> WNWutrb7...@corp.supernews.com11/21/02 23:03dr...@hotmail.com

> Correlations I'd like to see:
>
> Caffeine to picking season.
> Caffeine to leaf size -- how medial to bud
> Caffeine to time steeped and to first, second, and third steep.

If you're really interested, there are probably some academic studies
that might address these issues. Try a search of the 'net or an
academic library.

BTW: I believe the stimulant in tea is actually called "theine" and is
related to caffeine. Although everyone in the U.S. calls it and all
similar stimulants "caffeine" (and it's probably easier left that way
for the general populace).
Coffee has caffeine.
Tea has theine.
Maté (the Brazilian beverage, pronounced ma-tay) has matheine.
I think there's also a correlation from jittery buzz (caffeine) to
focused sitmulation (matheine), with theine in the middle.
Incidentally, maté is very popular with Brazilian students, and
segments of the U.S. student population are discovering its benefits
for pulling all-nighters :-)

Also, the tannin in tea acts as a stimulant as well.

Kee-Huat
km...@yahoo.com

Patrick Alexander

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Nov 23, 2002, 4:33:02 PM11/23/02
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Kee-Huat <km...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> BTW: I believe the stimulant in tea is actually called "theine" and is
> related to caffeine. Although everyone in the U.S. calls it and all
> similar stimulants "caffeine" (and it's probably easier left that way
> for the general populace).
> Coffee has caffeine.
> Tea has theine.

Caffeine and theine appear to be synonyms. For instance, the
Merck Index entry for caffeine, which can be found online at
`http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/caffeine/caffeine_chemistry.shtml', and
which should be quite reliable, lists `theine' as a synonym of `caffeine',
as do any number faqs and coffee/tea-related websites (which of course
may, or may not, be accurate... for instance, many of these websites say
that chocolate contains caffeine, which I'm fairly certain is not the
case). Interestingly, the Merck Inex entry on caffeine also says that
caffeine occurs in mate'. On this point many faqs and mate' related
websites disagree, so the matter may not be settled, but I'd tend to trust
the Merck Index more than most other sources... *shrug*

Patrick Alexander

Rick Chappell

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Nov 25, 2002, 10:08:58 AM11/25/02
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Michael Plant <mpl...@pipeline.com> wrote in reply to Kee-Huat:

KH> Correlations I'd like to see:
KH>
KH> Caffeine to picking season.
KH> Caffeine to leaf size -- how medial to bud
KH> Caffeine to time steeped and to first, second, and third steep.

MP> If you're really interested, there are probably some academic studies
MP> that might address these issues.

I've done a few academic studies. When I feed a cup of concentrated East
Friesland tea to my friend Paul in the Dept. of Ophthalmology he becomes
somewhat glassy-eyed and given to sudden jerky movements. And when I give
a quart of Darjeeling to Jason in the Dept. of Biostatistics (he uses this
gargantuan coffee cup because the cafeteria only charges by the cup, not
volume, and lets you bring your own) I can't see any difference, though it's
hard to think of exactly how I would tell if he is wired and he's used to
drinking quarts of coffee anyway.

If anyone wants to send me some nice samples I would be happy to do some
more academic studies.

Rick (an academic).

Michael Plant

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Nov 25, 2002, 11:15:26 AM11/25/02
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Rick Chappellarteea$9bm$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu11/25/02
10:08cha...@becrux.biostat.wisc.edu


Hi Rick,

Ah, yes. Friesland; one of my favorite places. Even now, thirty odd years
later, I can hear the sounds of the Fries language, which, BTW, is the
language closest to English -- even closer than Dutch, to which most people
attribute that honor. If you visit Friesland, you have got to step over to
Groningen also -- did I spell that right? I'm ashamed to say I've forgotten
which one of those provinces has those wonderous big square, thatched barns
with the housing part incorporated right in so barn and house are of a
piece. Anyway, what were we on? Oh, yes. Science.

When I first read your post, I misread "ophthamology," taking it for
"ornithology," one of my life long interests, and so, as you'd imagine,
became quite excited at the connection, only to read more carefully and have
my hopes dashed.

Well, as for caffeine, I guess I really don't care that much; but hope your
glassy eyed eye doctor friend is OK, and I advise no surgery during those
caffeine moments induced by you.

BTW,. if and when you visit Friesland, do it on a bicycle. It's the only
way.

Best,
Michael


Saunam Bhattacharjee

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Dec 4, 2002, 8:43:53 AM12/4/02
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Mr. Chappell,

If I send you a sample of my company's teas, would you be able to tell me
exactly how much caffaine does our teas have? Or am I asking the wrong
question?

Saunam

"Rick Chappell" <chap...@becrux.biostat.wisc.edu> wrote in message
news:arteea$9bm$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu...

Rick Chappell

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Dec 4, 2002, 11:42:17 AM12/4/02
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Oh lord, I did it again. Gave a smart-ass answer and, because smirks don't
seem to transmit very well electronically, it was taken seriously.

Mr. Bhattacharjee, I have no analytic equipment for determining caffeine
content. I'm a statistician which means that other people do all the messy
work and just give me the numbers. Numerous explosions, spills, contaminated
Petri dishes and other misfortunes have convinced me to stay out of
laboratories (of which decision I am sure my old supervisors and instructors
would approve).

So if you send me samples I will give you my praise, gratitude and subjective
opinion but no more. I can also send you samples of various Chinese teas
which I manage to accumulate, but only in the U.S. I have twice tried sending
tea to India, both times unsuccessfully, and now my wife tells me (in the same
voice which she uses on our two year old) that "maybe-it-isn't-such-a-good-idea-
to-send-more-tea-to-a-country-where-they-already-have-more-tea-than-they-know-
what-to-do-with-and-probably-think-that-you're-trying-to-transport-illegal-
drugs-anyway-[you-mush-brained-twit]." (She actually is a sweet and demure
librarian, and would never use language such as that which I enclosed in
brackets, but I could see that it was implied by a particularly demonstrative
set to her {shapely} eyebrows.) So no mailing more tea to India for me.

Best wishes,

Rick Chappell
600 Highland Avenue, K6/430
Madison, WI 53792
USA

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