worried about pesticides in tea?
Tea Sunrise
you ever worried that the tea leaves were sprayed with pesticides such
as DDT or other harmful chemicals? I'd hate to think that I could
be drinking a cup full of toxins or pesticides along with my EGCG.
Is the correct move to switch to organic teas? Does anyone really
know if tea bushes are completely safe for consumption?
Any input is highly appreciated. thanks.
toci
Since there're a lot of organic teas to try, I'm switching to organic
tea for the time being for a lot of my teas. You can get organic
Assams, Nilgiris, Ceylons, and whites. Oolongs are more difficult.
Toci
Mydnight
> know if tea bushes are completely safe for consumption?
>
> Any input is highly appreciated. thanks.
Drink at your own risk. Organic tea from China does not exist.
Jazzy
generally quite safe
Dominic T.
There is no such thing really as organic tea (my belief in any so-
called organic food is minimal at best anyhow though) Mainly for the
fact that no one can control the ground/soil contents or the rain,
atmosphere, runoff, etc. regardless of what they do. It is a fact of
life today. This whole "organic" business is just that, a business.
I have always said from day 1 that I fully believe any perceived
health benefits in tea are nullified by environmental/handling/
processing issues. I just hope the balance is in favor of the health
side and less on the dark side. But it is always just that, a hope.
I have seen "organic" okra test so high for uranium it was off the
charts. I've seen artesian wells test high for lead, cyanide, and a
host of other nasty things... the bottom line is that with tea it is a
sponge. It soaks up and concentrates, especially into new growth which
are the prized buds and leaves, and that is just how it is. EGCG and
all the rest of the health benefit B.S. is nothing but marketing and
hype. Drink tea because you want to, and you enjoy it, and also
remember to take a break from the stuff every now and then for some
water or other drink to keep things in some sort of balance. I know I
can put away 10-14 cups a day easily, I also know I don't do 10-14
cups of anything else, even water... so I know I'm way out of any sort
of balance there and if there happens to be toxins/chemicals in some
of the tea I'm drinking I'm getting nice steady, prolonged doses which
is just about the worst possible way to do it. I understand it, I
accept it, and I move on with life.
Spending extra for some silly stamp of approval is just that, silly.
If you want "organic" then patronize your local small farms and
growers for as much as possible, it probably won't help one bit in the
end but at least you kept a hard-working family alive instead of some
corporate mill. Speaking of which, my tea bush is growing like crazy
now that it is a bit older... at this rate I'll have to charge about
$10,000/oz. but it is the most "organic" tea ever grown and has never
been subject to anything since it has been in my greenhouse from birth
and hand cared for with no contact with the environment except the
sunlight that comes in and the air that circulates through. I'll be
taking orders for about year 2010, so get them in early... *crickets
chirping*
- Dominic
http://teasphere.wordpress.com
toci
Upton has a bunch of Chineses organic teas. What is the
"miscommunication?" Toci
Shen
I think the "miscommunication" can be the standards by which "organic"
is determined. There is a "world" standard, a US standard" and here in
California, very rigid standards.
The criteria have to do with how long the soil has been untainted, the
seeds or actual growing product untainted, the packaging untainted
etc.
And then, there is the inevitable question of actually adhering to
those criteria. Here in California, we have inspections.
Who knows what truly goes on in Chinese "inspections".
Mydnight, do you know exactly what are the criteria for organic
growing in China and if there are qualified inspectors who actually
inspect?
In my mind, you're probably bound to get a hellofalot more poisons in
an FDA inspected American hot dog than you would in a cup of Chinese
tea.
I guess it's all relative, eh?
Shen
SN
> Not, if you grow something organic, you do not put more pesticides in
> the environment.
>
> So, the more organic the best for all.
pesticides are organic and biodegradable
Dominic T.
>
> <dominictibe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >atmosphere, runoff, etc. regardless of what they do. It is a fact of
> >life today. This whole "organic" business is just that, a business.
>
> the environment.
>
> So, the more organic the best for all.
I understand this, and I'm also not going to come down on anyone who
want to eat only "organic" products... fine by me. But I will say that
it matters not one bit whether *you* use pesticides, if the crop is
planted in the ground, in the open it will be almost indistinguishable
from a "non" organic product when analyzed. No one can control
groundwater, rain, runoff, air quality, etc. as if they were in a
bubble... unless they are in a bubble. I have a lot of family and
friends in the agriculture business and even the ones who grow organic
produce will not try to sugar-coat the reality of the situation. It is
what it is, and as they will even gladly admit, the "organic" labeled
produce sells and sells for a large markup and in many cases it is
absolutely no different than how they have been growing those same
tomatoes, corn, cucumbers in years past. They love this new marketing
and hype, they don't pay a cent to advertise it and they reap all of
the benefits.
To think anything is going to grow in China and not be tainted in some
way or another though is fooling themselves, same goes for right here
in the good ole US of A, no difference. If you have a local family
farm or co-op, like I said, go for it. It's better than a Whole Foods
market or Wal-Mart and you are directly helping local people in your
community, if that "green" product had to take a half way around the
world journey to get to you, you've already offset any carbon/CO2/etc.
that was saved in the production... but you saved there being double
the amount... so I guess that's a plus. Again, just my views, but
having some familiarity with it all, I can safely say that it is a
business and it is a fad and there will always be folks willing to
fill a niche.
- Dominic
dragon...@gmail.com
I completely agree with you. I recently read a newspaper article
about a woman who became ill due to drinking green tea which was
contaminated with DDT (she drink the same tea for a couple of years -
a cheap Chinese green tea). While I agree that "going organic" is no
guarantee of avoiding toxins, I do think that going organic can help
to reduce the chance of your tea being contaminated. I recently asked
Upton Tea about how they ensure that their teas are organic - they
told me that they do test most of the organic teas from time to time
to make sure everything is ok. I also read that in 2000 the EU
introduced new standards for tea. The number of restricted chemicals
jumped from 7 to 134. From what I understand, these standards actually
require testing of the end product as opposed to merely making sure no
pesticides are used, etc. According to this China Daily article the
result of the new EU regulations was that in 2001 tea exports from
China to the EU dropped by 37%. (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/
doc/2004-04/13/content_322923.htm) (Sorry, not trying to pick on
Chinese teas.) As a result I have tried ordering some teas from the
EU. Specifically I ordered some teas from Jing Tea in the UK. (http://
jingtea.com/). The only problem is expense.
Another tea shop that actually tests every tea they sell is a German
tea company (Tea Gschwender) which has a shop in Chicago that you can
order from. I just tried something from there as well. They seem to
be slow in stocking new Chinese greens and oolongs. (http://
www.teagschwendner.com/)
I have to admit I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the US and
other organic certifications really mean. I do find the concept of
actually testing the tea easier to understand!
Good luck in you search for toxin-free tea. I'm doing the same.
Gtips
I don't think there's a need to switch from non-organic to organic tea
(Camellia Sinensis). Pollution in some of the Tea producing countries
has become rampant due to recent economic booms while enviromental
laws,unfortunately, have literally become un-enforceable. Organic teas
are sold at a premium price but do not offer the "purity" you
seek,unless you grow it yourself. Dominics response I believe covers
this subject very clearly .Good Luck
niisonge
> seek,unless you grow it yourself.
That's quite correct. There are organic teas grown and produced in
China. But don't fool yourself. Many places in China are heavily
polluted. And pollution knows no borders. So, say your farm is
organic, there is nothing you can do to prevent chemicals from rain
leaching and accumulating in the soil; or chemicals in dust and
residues blown in by the wind. Even if you grew tea yourself in China,
there is nothing you can do to ensure it's 100% pure. There's only so
much a person can do. In China, "clean and pure" just means,
relatively speaking, as clean and pure as can be, giving the
environmental circumstances of the country. So, farmers try to grow
good tea as far as possible away from human settlement - up in some
tea mountains somewhere. Then, the cheap tea they grow in gardens
around their houses - and that stuff is polluted and contaminated like
heck.
Mydnight
> Mydnight, do you know exactly what are the criteria for organic
> growing in China and if there are qualified inspectors who actually
> inspect?
> In my mind, you're probably bound to get a hellofalot more poisons in
> an FDA inspected American hot dog than you would in a cup of Chinese
In China, there are no serious inspections to see such a thing done
and any certification can be bought with the right amount of money or
copied and printed. I had lunch with someone from the 'something
something something something department of agriculture something
something position in Guangdong' (the Chinese love their titles more
than Westerners), and he avoided all conversation on this topic.
The closest thing to organic I've seen so far has been my good
friend's relatives farm where they hand pick any insects out of their
crops and use aphids. They have some excellently fresh veggies.
Tea. Drink at your own risk.
Melinda
<dragon...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189992876.8...@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
This brings up something I've been meaning to ask the group...if I wanted to
take a sample of tea from my cupboard and get it analyzed for pesticides
etc., how would I go aobut doing that? I imagine a lab, but what kind, how
would I find one, and would they do such a thing for a member of the general
public?
Melinda
Ankit Lochan
Organic Certificates are being sold by these certifying agencies at
diffrent price tags like - if you pay a very high fees - you are
organic within 6 months, if the amount paid is lower - 15 months, if
still lower than 24 months..... the story goes on.. bottomline is if
you have cash you can become organic real quick otherwise dont even
think or imagine getting a certificate... it just wont happen - no
matter how good you are...
Organic Organic and Organic has just turned out to be a marketing
gimmick. a small example - a big group in india buys several gardens
as they switch from one trade to another and in a small time span all
their gardens are certified organic ..... hey a land and a bush that
were on chemicals for over 100 years suddenly becomes organic - 100%
in 6 months or a year - is that possible? the answer friends lies with
us.
I think that we should study the source that we buy from - by that i
mean the manufacturing source and whenever we buy teas from our US
wholeseller or retailer we should ask him to provide us with a
pysiochemical certificate for the teas he is carrying. this
certificate is provided by the lab, they provide details like the
moisture content, the ash content, blah blah and the main part is that
they provide the pesticide analysis (dicofol, ethion, quinolphos,
fenzaquin, glyphospate, melathion, diazinon, fenamiphos, propargite)
these are the common chemicals that the lab tests.. this certificate
only costs 150 USD to 200 USD per tea. this will help the person
market his teas better and he will also be able to make a loyal
clientale for himself...
if the american tea association or any body can make a law that any
person selling tea to US wholesellers, retailers or consumers has to
provide this certificate for the tea he sells - i think our job in
deciding which tea to drink will be easier, it will also make the
manufacturers more conscious.
we have to make things more realistic and stop companies from taking
advantage of this word organic, they are fooling consumers and
charging a very high price for something that is actually not worth
it.
if anyne wants to see a copy of the physiochemical certificate -
please feel free to e-mail me and ask for one.
Mydnight
> On Sep 16, 12:32 pm, Tea Sunrise <bernard...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Since a lot of the tea we drink comes from China and Indonesia, are
> > you ever worried that the tea leaves were sprayed with pesticides such
> > as DDT or other harmful chemicals? I'd hate to think that I could
> > be drinking a cup full of toxins or pesticides along with my EGCG.
>
> > Is the correct move to switch to organic teas? Does anyone really
> > know if tea bushes are completely safe for consumption?
>
> > Any input is highly appreciated. thanks.
>
> Organic Certificates are being sold by these certifying agencies at
> diffrent price tags like - if you pay a very high fees - you are
> organic within 6 months, if the amount paid is lower - 15 months, if
> still lower than 24 months..... the story goes on.. bottomline is if
> you have cash you can become organic real quick otherwise dont even
> think or imagine getting a certificate... it just wont happen - no
> matter how good you are...
Yep. Just like ISO certs for factories here in China. You pay off
the auditors, you get your ISO9000 or whatever you are going for.
juliantai
To me, it really boils down to 2 things: how young is the tea shoots?
Does your tea taste good?
As Dogma pointed out, tea plants accumulate minerals. When drinking
white tea and green tea, the best guarantee is to drink from the
youngest tea shoots - the first 10 days or so in Spring. They usually
make the highest grade. They also contain the least environmental
contaminants.
The best tea garden tends to use little pesticides. They just don't
need it. These tend to be tea gardens situated at high altitude at
sloping lands. The entire region tends to be prosperous tea growers
(in China consisted of small tea gardens), situated away from
factories and road traffics.
Their teas tend to be wholesaled at very high prices and not so
commonly available in the West. I came across a few tea gardens and
they hardly bother about organic labelling - Chinese market doesn't
care that much when it comes to these very sought-after teas.
Organic labelling per se doesn't mean much.
Use of chemicals is not a viable long term strategy for the best tea
gardens. If your tea tastes good, chances are it comes from a fertile
tea garden with the right conditions that make overuse of chemicals
unlikely.
Julian
Mydnight
> Hmm.. what a fascinating discussion you have here.
>
> To me, it really boils down to 2 things: how young is the tea shoots?
> Does your tea taste good?
I had a lot of Tie Guan Yin that tasted really good. Unfortunately,
most of those flavors are unnatural additives. The "tea shoot" thing
is mostly about green tea. What about Wulong?
> The best tea garden tends to use little pesticides. They just don't
> need it. These tend to be tea gardens situated at high altitude at
> sloping lands. The entire region tends to be prosperous tea growers
> (in China consisted of small tea gardens), situated away from
> factories and road traffics.
This is the newest marketing idea in the tea trade that I fell for
myself. "It's so high on the mountain, it doesn't need chemicals" or
"the farmers are so poor, that they cannot afford pesticides" or "the
most famous tea producing areas are more concerned about the tea being
clean". It's mostly balderdash.
In China quantity = money, not quality.
> Their teas tend to be wholesaled at very high prices and not so
> commonly available in the West. I came across a few tea gardens and
> they hardly bother about organic labelling - Chinese market doesn't
> care that much when it comes to these very sought-after teas.
These teas are not only "unavailable" in the West; a great percentage
of Chinese never even SEE these teas. They are carted away for the
royality and the uber-rich. The best green teas do come from the
small countryside places. Most famous teas, like Longjing, are
guaranteed to be dirty. See above about quality vs. quantity.
> Use of chemicals is not a viable long term strategy for the best tea
> gardens. If your tea tastes good, chances are it comes from a fertile
> tea garden with the right conditions that make overuse of chemicals
> unlikely.
Most Chinese can't see in the long term and it is part of their
culture. What is acquired today can be taken away tomorrow by the CCP
or anyone else with a little power.
If your tea tastes good, it is likely it has a bunch of flavoring
added. Nai Xiang? Guo (fruit) Xiang? Tell me which plant produces
such flavors naturally.
Scott Dorsey
Tea Sunrise <berna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Since a lot of the tea we drink comes from China and Indonesia, are
>you ever worried that the tea leaves were sprayed with pesticides such
>as DDT or other harmful chemicals? I'd hate to think that I could
>be drinking a cup full of toxins or pesticides along with my EGCG.
Chinese farming methods are all over the place, and some of them are
pretty nasty, yes.
>Is the correct move to switch to organic teas? Does anyone really
>know if tea bushes are completely safe for consumption?
If you drink tea from mainland China, it does not matter whether there
is an organic label on it or not; you cannot really have any idea about
pesticide contamination without actual measurement.
If this worries you, drink tea from Taiwan instead.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Scott Dorsey
>
>In China, there are no serious inspections to see such a thing done
>and any certification can be bought with the right amount of money or
>copied and printed. I had lunch with someone from the 'something
>something something something department of agriculture something
>something position in Guangdong' (the Chinese love their titles more
>than Westerners), and he avoided all conversation on this topic.
I had a Chinese manufacturer explain to me that their reference standards
were calibrated because they had someone come around every six months and
put stickers on them.
Scott Dorsey
>
>This brings up something I've been meaning to ask the group...if I wanted to
>take a sample of tea from my cupboard and get it analyzed for pesticides
>etc., how would I go aobut doing that? I imagine a lab, but what kind, how
>would I find one, and would they do such a thing for a member of the general
>public?
Here in Virginia, the agricultural extension service has access to a lab
at Virginia Tech that can do pesticide assays for very low prices.
Your extension service may have something similar.
Some commercial labs include http://www.wcaslab.com and
http://www.emalab.com. I have not used either, though.
niisonge
Drink tea from Taiwan instead? It's got to be just as polluted as the
stuff from the Mainland. You can see Taiwan from Xiamen. It's just a
stone's throw away. Same in Fuzhou. Remember, pollution knows no
boundaries. What and drift in on the wind, can go anywhere. Just
because it's from Taiwan doesn't necessarily mean it will be better.
Mydnight
> stuff from the Mainland. You can see Taiwan from Xiamen. It's just a
> stone's throw away. Same in Fuzhou. Remember, pollution knows no
> boundaries. What and drift in on the wind, can go anywhere. Just
> because it's from Taiwan doesn't necessarily mean it will be better.
Xiamen is a festering cesspool under a tourist-friendly guise; Fuzhou
is just as filthy. Taiwan has had some friendly dealings with the US
and Western countries for a while and for the most part understands
the concept of quality over quantity. Mainland China, still for the
most part suffering from the Imperial mindset of mine-mine-mine-now-
now-now-before-its-taken-away-from-me, only cares for profit.
I would be willing to bet all the money in my savings account, which
ain't much, folks, that any random sample of tea from Taizhong (where
most wulong is produced in Taiwan), a relatively mountainous, clean
place, would have a better sanitary rating than ANY TEA, INCLUDING THE
HIGHEST GRADE, from Fujian AnXi (where Tieguan, the most famous tea
from Fujian) is produced. I'd also be willing to bet that the Rock
teas from WuYi Mountain would have the same rating of pollution as in
Anxi.
dragon...@gmail.com
> Melinda <Csine...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >This brings up something I've been meaning to ask the group...if I wanted to
> >take a sample of tea from my cupboard and get it analyzed for pesticides
> >etc., how would I go aobut doing that? I imagine a lab, but what kind, how
> >would I find one, and would they do such a thing for a member of the general
> >public?
>
> Here in Virginia, the agricultural extension service has access to a lab
> at Virginia Tech that can do pesticide assays for very low prices.
>
> Your extension service may have something similar.
>
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Do you have the contact info for having a pesticide assay done at
Virgina Tech? I couldn't find this service on their website.
Thanks.
Alex
You can see Taiwan from Xiamen? Really? I've spent some time in
Xiamen, and I could see Jinmen, which is administered by Taiwan and
produces really good cutlery but no tea. You'd have to have really
good eyes to see Taiwan, because it's about 130 miles away. The
closest point to Taiwan, which I believe is the Gaoshan area near
Fuzhou, is about 80 miles. I know this because once upon a time I had
a crazy English friend who was planning to fly his ultralight to the
Mainland. He never did. Anyway.
In any case, I think we are talking about tea that has had pesticides
directly applied to them, and while I have not looked, I don't think
that would be hard in Taiwan. I guess I am just about 100% with
Mydnight on this point. For one thing, if something says "certified"
in Taiwan, it is much more likely to be true, and for another, I have
had teas from Taiwan (OB and Stephane Erler's guifei cha, for
instance) that were clearly chewed by insects, and I think that means
no pesticides. It is a very polluted country, sure, but in my mind
there is no question that its tea fields, many of them located very
far from any other human habitation, are less polluted than oolong
fields in Fujian.
Another point on which my mind brokes no questioning (Mydnight, this
is for you) is the natural source of the naixiang taste. The jinxuan
varietal of oolong produces this taste naturally. It is attested in
the scientific literature (of which I have read quotes in Chi
Zongxian's books) and the taste lasts through many steeps, which to me
means it is highly unlikely that it comes from something sprinkled or
sprayed on the leaves.
Alex
Scott Dorsey
Oh, the pollution issues are still there. But the farming practices are
better-regulated at least.
Scott Dorsey
>
>Do you have the contact info for having a pesticide assay done at
>Virgina Tech? I couldn't find this service on their website.
>Thanks.
I just go to the local county extension service agent and hand him
the samples.
But you might be able to do it directly, by talking to these guys:
http://www.biochem.vt.edu/pestlab/
SN
<---
You are looking at about
$500 for a pesticide screen,
$400 for a metals screen, and
$500 for an organics screen.
Depending on what vitamins you are looking for the cost is from $100
on up for each individual one.
-->
:( well... that sure ruins my plans
Shen
> <dragonwell...@gmail.com> wrote in message
University of California, Davis - well-known for their agricultural
additive studies.
Not expensive, at all.
Shen
Shen
Ridiculous assumption - some pesticides are organic, some not. Some
biodegradable, some not.
Shen
Nigel
Nigel at Teacraft
Shen
Excellent link, Nigel. very interesting.
Has there been follow-up to check the efficacy of this kit?
Shen
Melinda
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fcolhe$9sj$1...@panix2.panix.com...
Excellent, thanks Scott. I never thought about the Extension Service.
Melinda
Melinda
"Shen" <ilu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190148860.4...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Thank-you Shen. If it really isn't expensive this would be a really
interesting experiment for us to try (or me).
Melinda
juliantai
> I had a lot of Tie Guan Yin that tasted really good. Unfortunately,
> most of those flavors are unnatural additives. The "tea shoot" thing
> is mostly about green tea. What about Wulong?
The quality of Tieguanyin tends to increase with its durability. A top
Tieguanyin Wang can easily last 9 infusions, and still tastes honeyed,
not astringent and retaining a slight orchid fragrance. An experienced
taster (which I would say apply to many people participating in this
group) should have the confidence to tell the real from the fake.
> These teas are not only "unavailable" in the West; a great percentage
> of Chinese never even SEE these teas. They are carted away for the
> royality and the uber-rich. The best green teas do come from the
> small countryside places. Most famous teas, like Longjing, are
> guaranteed to be dirty. See above about quality vs. quantity.
A famous Chinese tea is not just about a Longjing tea or a Taiping
Houkui tea etc. It has specific meaning referring to exactly where it
is produced, and its grade (usually determined by the timing of the
harvest and the quality of leaves)
The 10 famous teas were coined in the 1950s. At that time, THE
Longjing tea refers to the Xihu Longjing tea, which then consisted of
only the Lion peak mountain (the original Xihu) and the surrounding
Mejiawu (later added).
Today, Longjing tea is produced all over China in 20 provinces.
Similarly, the original TPHK tea were produced in the 3 villages
around Hou Gan.
Today it is produced in the entire Yellow mountain area, plus all the
fakes.
As Mynight rightly pointed out, these truly authentic high grades are
seldom available. A top quality famous tea now sells at US$110 (per 50
grams) at Chinese street prices.
These teas wholesaled at $20+. They are seldom available in the West.
99% of tea vendors are not selling these high grades.
Yes, Longjing tea can be dirty. I have specific concerns with those
teas coming from Meijiawu. Not due to pesticides. But because of road
traffic.
But internet retailing is changing this, making authentic high grades
available at better prices.
For example, Sevencup currently sells their Tribute Longjing tea at
$75. We do it for half the price. These teas go directly to the
Chinese White House and get tested for regularly. So there is no
question about their quality. Imagine, Westerners paying less than
Chinese people. Is there a catch? It is the nature of internet
retailing.
I am sure as time goes by people would discover more high quality but
less famous tea to sell at more affordable price, delivering more
value to your money.
> Most Chinese can't see in the long term and it is part of their
> culture. What is acquired today can be taken away tomorrow by the CCP
> or anyone else with a little power.
Organic farming is a long term strategy. Misuse of chemical and
pesticides kill the yield of the tea garden. It poisons the water
sources and harms the worker health. .There is no conflict here. The
best tea gardens have every incentive to keep their tea as clean as
possible. It is in their best interests.
Authentic tea gardens have been farming teas for hundreds of years.
They existed even before China industrialised. They are not poor, they
tend to be prosperous farmers who command high premiums for their
teas. They know that customers come back to them because their teas
taste different from competitions.
I understand all your concerns about pesticides in tea. I agree with
many of your suggestions, especially tea testing and Taiwanese tea.
But I think there are many GREAT teas around, from China/Taiwan/India
etc, tasting good and highly organic. Call me an optimist, I think
there will be even more of them available in the future.
rtr...@googlemail.com
> It would be interesting to do some tests and see if rinsing tea leaves
> before brewing them actually results in a significant decrease in
> pesticide residue etc..
There was a study in the UK recently (read about it in a newspaper
about a month or two ago, sorry don't have any more specific info)
that was testing the benefits of washing your fruit to remove
pesticides. They found that washing removes dirt and that is good. But
any chemicals appear to penetrate the skin of the fruit. They found
that washing did not reduce the amount of chemicals, but peeling did.
The conclusion was that most pesticides end up accumulating in the
skin of fruit.
My assumption from this would be that rinsing tea won't get rid of any
pesticides.
Robby
Mydnight
> Tieguanyin Wang can easily last 9 infusions, and still tastes honeyed,
> not astringent and retaining a slight orchid fragrance. An experienced
> taster (which I would say apply to many people participating in this
> group) should have the confidence to tell the real from the fake.
This is also marketing. If a tea does or does not yield a huge amount
of brewings, it can have a lot to do with weather conditions or how
they cooked the tea. Most of the TieGuanYin I have drank, and I've
bought some top grade in the past, did hold up for many brewings,
maybe upwards to 10 or 11, but I think it says little about the
pollution levels or the quality of the tea. The crappy red tea I am
drinking from Yixing can brew 15 times without tasting like an old
sock. The general grade TGY has about 3 or 4 brewings in it before
all of the spray-on flavor washes off.
The main thing about this tea that bothers me is what was told to me
by a local of GanDe county in AnXi. He said something like, "Twenty
years ago, the tea tasted nothing like it does today. Most older
locals here won't even drink it."
Wonder why that is...
> A famous Chinese tea is not just about a Longjing tea or a Taiping
> Houkui tea etc. It has specific meaning referring to exactly where it
> is produced, and its grade (usually determined by the timing of the
> harvest and the quality of leaves)
It's grade depends more highly upon weather conditions and the growing
process. They do pick greens early in the spring, and the first pick,
as with all teas, is always the best. Geography is also important in
a tea's quality.
> The 10 famous teas were coined in the 1950s. At that time, THE
> Longjing tea refers to the Xihu Longjing tea, which then consisted of
> only the Lion peak mountain (the original Xihu) and the surrounding
> Mejiawu (later added).
You mean Shi Feng. There are slight differences between Xihu and
ShiFeng.
> Today, Longjing tea is produced all over China in 20 provinces.
Yes, indeed. Most people drink Longjing that comes from Sichuan and
they don't even realize it. Vendors early as 10 years ago began to
investigate other options in buying raw stock leaves for their
factories because of the insane prices that the farmers in Hangzhou
offer. You ever seen a Chinese farmer with a car and a 3-storey
house? Go to XiHu village.
> Similarly, the original TPHK tea were produced in the 3 villages
> around Hou Gan.
>
> Today it is produced in the entire Yellow mountain area, plus all the
> fakes.
I think I drank some of this tea that was produced in Hubei once.
> As Mynight rightly pointed out, these truly authentic high grades are
> seldom available. A top quality famous tea now sells at US$110 (per 50
> grams) at Chinese street prices.
Uh, either you were cheated or you are in a different China than I
am. I paid more than 100 bucks a few times for 500g of the tea that
you mention from trusted, personal friends and sources. Such a high
price for 50g could only be found in TianFu (TenRen) or similar chains
where everything is insanely overpriced anyway.
> But internet retailing is changing this, making authentic high grades
> available at better prices.
To be honest, I have never been impressed by teas that I tried from
the net. I would usually go to hang out with a basic understanding of
tea that paid top dollar for their stuff. I've had teas in
cornershops here that were better...
> For example, Sevencup currently sells their Tribute Longjing tea at
> $75. We do it for half the price. These teas go directly to the
> Chinese White House and get tested for regularly. So there is no
> question about their quality. Imagine, Westerners paying less than
> Chinese people. Is there a catch? It is the nature of internet
> retailing.
Tribute Longjing means what exactly? Westerners paying less than
Chinese people...you must be joking. This only happens here if you
ask someone to go buy the tea for you or if your best friend is in
tea. I hope you can develop better marketing in the future.
> I am sure as time goes by people would discover more high quality but
> less famous tea to sell at more affordable price, delivering more
> value to your money.
In our dreams...
> Organic farming is a long term strategy. Misuse of chemical and
> pesticides kill the yield of the tea garden. It poisons the water
> sources and harms the worker health. .There is no conflict here. The
> best tea gardens have every incentive to keep their tea as clean as
> possible. It is in their best interests.
Misuse of chemical and pesticides increases yield, thus allowing more
tea to be produced. I think most tea gardens have figured out how to
keep a balance by now, don't you?
> I understand all your concerns about pesticides in tea. I agree with
> many of your suggestions, especially tea testing and Taiwanese tea.
> But I think there are many GREAT teas around, from China/Taiwan/India
> etc, tasting good and highly organic. Call me an optimist, I think
> there will be even more of them available in the future.
I repeat what I said before: THERE IS NO ORGANIC TEA IN CHINA.
That's all. I am not a pessimist, only a realist.
Dominic T.
Or even just what exactly it tests for. I hunted around for a short
while and came up empty, I'll have to look into it further later. I
never thought about it, but I may speak with someone at my university
to see if they have the equipment or interest in doing some research.
I will certainly talk to some people at my Alma Mater (Penn State)
since they are a huge agriculture and research school.
I never would have thought about the accessibility to testing
resources if it weren't for this thread.
- Dominic
Ankit Lochan
easier option - send the samples to me - i will have them tested at
1/10th the price, i guess.
juliantai
> easier option - send the samples to me - i will have them tested at
> 1/10th the price, i guess.
Ankit, I will be more than happy to send it to you, if you don't mind
the hassle.
What kinds of chemicals do you screen for? I have in my mind lead,
fluoride, aluminun (not sure why) and pesticides.
We can potentially collate the information in one big database to
share the results between the tea community.
Ankit Lochan
hi julian,
normally we do
moisture content
crude fibre
water extract
ash content
tannic acid
stem content
water soluble alkalinity
water soluble ash
caffeeine content
acid insoluble ash
any essence or additional colors
any foreign matter
mettalic matter
tea used before
reducing polyphenols
yeast and mould
E.coli
coliform
any pollution fungi
any pollution of mushrooms
pesticide residue of
diazinon
melathion
fenamiphos
propargite
heavy metals
lead
copper
arsenic
nickel
we can also do anything additional you want.
expenses on us - dont bother - feel free to send the samples - we can
share the results with everyone.. people can know what they are
drinking.....
Phyll
Ankit,
How much sample do you need to analyze the checimal make up of a tea?
I am tempted to have some of the older pu'er analyzed...stuff from the
1950's onwards. Would be interesting to find out what they contain.
Thanks.
Phyll
Lewis Perin
> On Sep 20, 5:10 am, Ankit Lochan <ankitloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [...lots of things he'll test for...]
> > we can also do anything additional you want.
> >
> > expenses on us - dont bother - feel free to send the samples - we can
> > share the results with everyone.. people can know what they are
> > drinking.....
>
> Ankit,
>
> How much sample do you need to analyze the checimal make up of a tea?
> I am tempted to have some of the older pu'er analyzed...stuff from the
> 1950's onwards. Would be interesting to find out what they contain.
Phyll, it's noble of you to volunteer to hand over some precious '50s
Pu'er. But, unless you're rich enough to drink that stuff often,
wouldn't it make more sense to test some everyday teas? I mean, this
is about health, no?
/Lew
---
Lew Perin / pe...@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
recently updated: Fenghuang Dancong
juliantai
It is really too kind of you. I suggest you charge some fees, i don't
really want to see you inundated with requests and taking too much of
your time.
Your list is very comprehensive. I suppose your heavymetal will
include fluoride? A lot of my visitors are interested in this
contaminant.
I will be happy to ship a green tea to you, and another oolong tea
that I am considering working with later this year.
How much sample do you need? I will happy to email to get the details
later this year (after the October oolong tea harvest).
I am really excited - putting these great tasting teas to an objective
test! Can pollutants and high grades exist hand in hand? I am
intrigued!
As a special thank you, I will also send you some secret presents.
dragon...@gmail.com
Ankit,
I would also like to have some tea tested. Every year I get a few
pounds of high mountain oolong from Taiwan. I agree that you should
pass through your costs for this though. I'd hate for you to have to
absorb that. You might be inundated with teas! Also do you test for
DDT?
Bob
Nigel
> Ankit
> Your list is very comprehensive. I suppose your heavymetal will
> include fluoride? A lot of my visitors are interested in this
> contaminant.
Let's retain a sense of balance here - fluoride is naturally present
in tea and is not a contaminant (neither is it a heavy metal).
>
> I am really excited - putting these great tasting teas to an objective
> test! Can pollutants and high grades exist hand in hand? I am
> intrigued!
Of the 30 items Ankit Lochan lists for analysis it would be impossible
(in the real world) to have zero presence for at least 29 of them -
then at what positive level of presence do you define 'pollution'?
And is your level the same as my level?
Nigel at Teacraft
SN
> (in the real world) to have zero presence for at least 29 of them -
> then at what positive level of presence do you define 'pollution'?
> And is your level the same as my level?
>
> Nigel at Teacraft
>
>
:)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
tgfop.wordpress.com
You can handle my gaiwan, but... be gentle.
Phyll
> Pu'er. But, unless you're rich enough to drink that stuff often,
> wouldn't it make more sense to test some everyday teas? I mean, this
> is about health, no?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> recently updated: Fenghuang Dancong
Good point. It was an academic curiosity on my part. I am curious to
find out if DDT or other banned substance is in older teas, which
command high prices for being collectible. I don't have much of old
teas, but if it takes a few milligrams (like in the CSI), then it's
not prohibitive.
Phyll
Phyll
> (in the real world) to have zero presence for at least 29 of them -
> then at what positive level of presence do you define 'pollution'?
> And is your level the same as my level?
>
> Nigel at Teacraft
Wouldn't the test show what a the upper limit is in ppm or other unit
measurement? Anything above a certain threshold is a red flag...like
my cholesterol level.
Phyll
Will Yardley
translator translation) of this thread on San Zui:
http://sanzui.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=76279
if anyone has the time / inclination.
w
niisonge
> is just as filthy.
Xiamen is actually a very pretty city, almost on par with Hong Kong;
except Hong Kong is way more crowded than Xiamen. But yeah, the air in
Fuzhou is pretty darn dirty. I always have a cough every time I go
there. Near Fuzhou, there is a town called Fuding, where they produce
white tea. Fuzhou has a lot of good eats there. Really delicious
stuff. Xiamen has some good food too. Lots of seafood - but probably
all polluted. Anyway, it tastes good.
> I would be willing to bet all the money in my savings account, which
> ain't much, folks, that any random sample of tea from Taizhong (where
> most wulong is produced in Taiwan), a relatively mountainous, clean
> place, would have a better sanitary rating than ANY TEA, INCLUDING THE
> HIGHEST GRADE, from Fujian AnXi (where Tieguan, the most famous tea
> from Fujian) is produced. I'd also be willing to bet that the Rock
> teas from WuYi Mountain would have the same rating of pollution as in
> Anxi.
Well, Anxi, comparatively speaking is pretty filthy. You can't argue
that. That's the town proper - is pretty dirty and grimy and stinky.
The food there is not so great either. But Tieguanyin is also grown in
the smaller towns in the mountains around there. So it would probably
be cleaner than the stuff that they grow nearest the town.
But Wuyi is clean everywhere - the town is clean, the mountains are
clean, the roadsides are clean. Everywhere is very clean. Much cleaner
than Anxi. So I bet teas from Wuyi are much cleaner than those from
Anxi. But like I said, pollution can travel on the wind and rain. What
goes up in one place may not necessarily pollute in the same area. And
I bet a lot of pollution from Mainland China gets blown over to
Taiwan. They're just too close in proximity to not be affected.
Ankit Lochan
>
> - Show quoted text -
hi phyll,
for the tests to be performed the lab requires at least 250g sample..
ankit
Ankit Lochan
> recently updated: Fenghuang Dancong
such expensive and rare puerhs - i think phyll needs to think it
over again as the quantity required is really high...
Ankit Lochan
hi julian,
i am sorry for not replying earlier - i was in kolkata for some imp.
meetings - just got back today..
we can include fluoride.. not a problem..
dont worry about the charges - we can talk on that later once the
tests are done.
minimum quantity of 250g is needed for us to perform all the required
tests.
thanks you for the secret presents - you are really very kind -
appreciated with folded hands..
Ankit Lochan
>
> - Show quoted text -
please feel free to send samples of the teas you want us to organise
tests off.
we can include tests for DDT - not a problem..
do not worry on the charges - we can talk of that later once the work
is done..
regards
Ankit Lochan
EU norms allow a certain % - normally teas are within that range.. if
that is the case we can consider the tea fit... my opinion - i think
this can be done - please correct me if i am wrong.
regards
Mydnight
> clean, the roadsides are clean. Everywhere is very clean. Much cleaner
> than Anxi. So I bet teas from Wuyi are much cleaner than those from
> Anxi. But like I said, pollution can travel on the wind and rain. What
> goes up in one place may not necessarily pollute in the same area. And
> I bet a lot of pollution from Mainland China gets blown over to
> Taiwan. They're just too close in proximity to not be affected.
I'm not so much talking about the pollution factor; I'm talking more
about the pesticides that are used. The environmental pollution is
just something we have to deal with but the man-made pollution that
the farmers create in the form of chemicals applied directly to the
teas to up their stock is more worrisome. The latter can and should
be controlled but it is not; it will never be.
It was a merchant, a local of XiPing (one of the big producers of TGY
besides GanDe) that told me to stop drinking his tea and Wulong from
Fujian.
Taiwan has and does follow standards related to pesticides/
insecticides with their teas, all exports, and even domestic goods.
China does not.
So, who you more willing to believe even without getting into stats?
China or Taiwan? I'm with the latter.
Scott Dorsey
>> Of the 30 items Ankit Lochan lists for analysis it would be impossible
>> (in the real world) to have zero presence for at least 29 of them -
>> then at what positive level of presence do you define 'pollution'?
>> And is your level the same as my level?
>
>measurement? Anything above a certain threshold is a red flag...like
>my cholesterol level.
Right, but the point is where that threshold is set. Where I think it
should be set may not be the same place where you care to set it.
In some cases, the tests don't tell everything. For example, if you do
a typical test for a heavy metal, it cannot distinguish between soluble
salts which are very bad, and insoluble salts which are much less harmful.
So where you decide to put the threshold requires making some assumptions
about the composition in the first place.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
niisonge
> better-regulated at least.
There's another point I should mention. Many Taiwanese businesspeople
come to Fujian and invest in Fujian. So they might set up tea farms
and grow Taiwan tea - right in Fujian. The same for Fujian tea farmers
and entrepreneurs - they will find some suitable and cheap land, and
start tea cultivation. So the so-called Taiwan tea you drink may not
even be from Taiwan.
There's an article here:
http://www.teafromtaiwan.com/Taiwan_Tea_Grown_in_China.htm
niisonge
> besides GanDe) that told me to stop drinking his tea and Wulong from
> Fujian.
Yeah, stop drinking his tea and any tea from Fujian. Let all the
Fujian people buy the tea. There are so many people in Fujian with
money - and they all drink tea; if one consumer stops buying - no one
cares. The demand is so darn huge in Mainland China anyway.
I think that's the problem right there. Chinese tea producers won't
change much until the mass of Chinese consumers themselves start
demanding pesticide-residue free tea.
niisonge
> Xiamen, and I could see Jinmen, which is administered by Taiwan and
> produces really good cutlery but no tea.
Yeah, but technically, that is still Taiwan, isn't it?
> The closest point to Taiwan, which I believe is the Gaoshan area near
> Fuzhou, is about 80 miles.
Well, Lianjiang county is a county near Fuzhou that is partly
controlled by Mainland China, and partly controlled by the ROC. The
outlying islands anyway, are controlled by the ROC, and that's a tea
producing area. In that area, they all speak Fuzhou dialect. It's only
about 19 Km to the mainland.
Mydnight
> Fujian people buy the tea. There are so many people in Fujian with
> money - and they all drink tea; if one consumer stops buying - no one
> cares. The demand is so darn huge in Mainland China anyway.
Already done. Also, most people from here don't drink tea from Fujian
anymore either. Most of their big revenue comes from illegal
smuggling anyway; giving a few million people health problems because
of their filthy tea is the least of their worries. Sad to say.
> I think that's the problem right there. Chinese tea producers won't
> change much until the mass of Chinese consumers themselves start
> demanding pesticide-residue free tea.
Won't happen. Most Chinese are relatively ignorant that this is even
a problem and the Chinese media is making sure that it doesn't look
too serious. They are out to make SARS look like the common cold.
Damn, I hate being so negative. What's wrong with me?
Mydnight
> come to Fujian and invest in Fujian. So they might set up tea farms
> and grow Taiwan tea - right in Fujian. The same for Fujian tea farmers
> and entrepreneurs - they will find some suitable and cheap land, and
> start tea cultivation. So the so-called Taiwan tea you drink may not
> even be from Taiwan.
Also an excellent point. It's why I only buy from sources IN TAIWAN
from Taiwanese people that are into the tea trade. Mainland "GaoShan"
tea is just as filthy as TieGuanYin and you can taste it.
I wish I could invite ya'll down to my house in Dongguan to have a
blind tasting: some top grade TGY vs. some supermarket grade GaoShan
Tea from Taiwan. Your jaws would drop.
DogMa
> I am curious to
> find out if DDT or other banned substance is in older teas, which
> command high prices for being collectible.
Good news is that DDT and many other controlled pesticides aren't
actually particularly bad for people in applied amounts. (I'm not sure
that there is even a single example of someone dying from ingesting
grams of the stuff, which happened not infrequently.) DDT was banned
because - being fat-soluble and metabolized only very slowly - it
concentrates up the food chain. So top-predator birds had problems with
egg shell development. We'd have to eat the cats that fed on the mice
that ate the beetles that ate the Pu-erh weevils...
I'm not a medic or biologist, but my impression is that many of the
really nasty pesticides like cholinesterase inhibitors have high acute
toxicity (e.g. to field workers) but very little chronic risk in lower
doses. Kind of the opposite of heavy-metal poisoning, like recent lead
problems. FWIW, I don't worry about it, and I do think a lot about food
safety.
-DM
juliantai
> white tea. Fuzhou has a lot of good eats there. Really delicious
> stuff. Xiamen has some good food too. Lots of seafood - but probably
> all polluted. Anyway, it tastes good.
Niisonge, I am glad you find something nice to say about Fuzhou. My
paternel grandparents and distant relatives are from that region. I
have never visited the city itself, as where were from more distant
Fuzhou villages.
Since you mention food, could you please tell me what you find nice
about it? My grandmother was a good cook, but ever since she passed
away, I solely missed Fuzhou cooking. As a boy, she never bothered
trained me in the art of cookery.
> The food there is not so great either. But Tieguanyin is also grown in
> the smaller towns in the mountains around there. So it would probably
> be cleaner than the stuff that they grow nearest the town.
Agree.
I think in fairness to Anxi, you really have to be talking about the
mountainous villages of Xiping, Xianghe and Gande, where the authentic
Tieguanyin are grown.
Could you share with us your opinions on how clean and dirty these
villages are?
I will be very keen to have their teas tested to remove any doubts.
juliantai
> actually particularly bad for people in applied amounts. (I'm not sure
> that there is even a single example of someone dying from ingesting
> grams of the stuff, which happened not infrequently.) DDT was banned
> because - being fat-soluble and metabolized only very slowly - it
> concentrates up the food chain. So top-predator birds had problems with
> egg shell development. We'd have to eat the cats that fed on the mice
> that ate the beetles that ate the Pu-erh weevils...
>
> I'm not a medic or biologist, but my impression is that many of the
> really nasty pesticides like cholinesterase inhibitors have high acute
> toxicity (e.g. to field workers) but very little chronic risk in lower
> doses. Kind of the opposite of heavy-metal poisoning, like recent lead
> problems. FWIW, I don't worry about it, and I do think a lot about food
> safety.
>
> -DM
Dogma/Mynight
I am with Dogma with this one. I think environmental pollution (road
traffic, air, water, lead, fluoride etc) are a more serious threat
than pesticides itself.
Tea garden situated in high attitude sloping land tend to use little
pesticide anyway. Usually these best parts of tea garden are used to
make the really high grades, like the better tasting Tieguanyin
Wangs.The price is usually a reflection of the location of the same
tea garden.
Just my opinion. I want to test their teas to be sure, anyway.
juliantai
This discussion is getting better and better! I am really excited!
I have been ill the entire weekend, but I just can't help
participating.
> Let's retain a sense of balance here - fluoride is naturally
present
> > in tea and is not a contaminant (neither is it a heavy metal).
Nigel, thanks for the correction.
I am particularly concerned about fluoride (and aluminium) because of
the focus on past scientific studies, mainly in West China, where
people had too much of them from the consumption of compressed tea.
Also the recent case study of a women in US suffering from fluorosis.
I am not an expert, but there have also been concern about fluoride
pesticide (if there is such thing, please correct me if I am wrong).
Again, open to correction. I really need to educate myself in this
matter much further.
My question is which tea do you test?
Dried tea leaf chemical composition?
Brewed tea liquor chemical composition?
I believe dried tea leaves contain less than half of soluble solids?
I have also thought that harmful substances in dried tea leaves are
less likely to be soluble.
So brewed tea liquor is better, but much more subjective as
preparation method can influence chemical composition.
So I guess standard practice is dried tea leaves, but bearing in mind
we are testing for a maximum here, and this is just an INDICATION
(probably less) of the amount present in brewed tea liquor?
Any data on the water-solubility of these pollutants will definitely
be very relevant.
Probably less soluble than vitamin C, theanine, caffeine and
catechins?
Scott Dorsey
>Good news is that DDT and many other controlled pesticides aren't
>actually particularly bad for people in applied amounts. (I'm not sure
>that there is even a single example of someone dying from ingesting
>grams of the stuff, which happened not infrequently.) DDT was banned
>because - being fat-soluble and metabolized only very slowly - it
>concentrates up the food chain. So top-predator birds had problems with
>egg shell development. We'd have to eat the cats that fed on the mice
>that ate the beetles that ate the Pu-erh weevils...
Precisely. I grew up with sprinking DDT between the sheets before
getting into bed, and pouring DDT-laced diesel into the fire before
cooking outside to keep the bugs away. Not that it isn't an environmental
disaster, but it's not a human health disaster. Also, sad to say, it's
not as effective as it was when I was a kid because insects have evolved to
develop tolerances. Bug generations are very short.
That said, if you want to do testing for DDT, there is an easy titration
test that has a high false positive rate, a harder titration test that
has a lower false positive rate, and a chromatographic test that requires
much less material and is much easier if you have the machine. I assume
any professional laboratory today is using the chromatographic method,
but if you want to do it at home you can get the reagents to do the older
tests.
>I'm not a medic or biologist, but my impression is that many of the
>really nasty pesticides like cholinesterase inhibitors have high acute
>toxicity (e.g. to field workers) but very little chronic risk in lower
>doses. Kind of the opposite of heavy-metal poisoning, like recent lead
>problems. FWIW, I don't worry about it, and I do think a lot about food
>safety.
Yes, but don't forget there are some organometallic pesticides in common
use today now, which are indeed the opposite. On the gripping hand, we
also have to contend with the fact that the pesticides used in the field
are not exactly reagent-grade and come with all kinds of other contaminants
in possibly significant amounts.
Ankit Lochan
Dried tea leaf chemical composition?
Brewed tea liquor chemical composition?
both are tested by the lab..
juliantai
> any professional laboratory today is using the chromatographic method,
> but if you want to do it at home you can get the reagents to do the older
> tests.
Can you explain what chromatographic is about is layman's terms? How
is that different from gas-chromatography which I came across in more
recent studies?
> >doses. Kind of the opposite of heavy-metal poisoning, like recent lead
> >problems. FWIW, I don't worry about it, and I do think a lot about food
> >safety.
Could you elaborate further on the "recent lead problems"? Is that the
toy paint thingy? That seems to be a different issue from
environmental pollution.
> Yes, but don't forget there are some organometallic pesticides in common
> use today now, which are indeed the opposite. On the gripping hand, we
Could you explain what is organometallic pesticides? Is there such
thing as fluoride pesticide? How can I read about the different kinds
of pesticides available, pros and cons etc?
> also have to contend with the fact that the pesticides used in the field
> are not exactly reagent-grade and come with all kinds of other contaminants
> in possibly significant amounts.
What is reagent-grade in layman's terms?
Sorry for the bother. I don't really intend to take up too much of
your time. But if you can point me in the right direction, I will much
appreciate it.
Thank you.
juliantai
Thank you.
Scott Dorsey
>Scott/Dogma
>
>> any professional laboratory today is using the chromatographic method,
>> but if you want to do it at home you can get the reagents to do the older
>> tests.
>
>Can you explain what chromatographic is about is layman's terms? How
>is that different from gas-chromatography which I came across in more
>recent studies?
Okay, if you take a paper sheet and you put a drop of something in it,
and you put the bottom of the sheet in a solvent, the various constituents
of that drop will move up the paper by capillary actions, and lighter
molecules will move up more.
Today we have automated machines... you drop a liquid in, and the machine
spits out a graph of composition vs. molecular weight. Fancier systems
will also spit out level vs. valence vs. molecular weight by applying charge
to the sample as well and separating it that way. A semi-skilled technician
can do the testing and it only takes an analytic chemist to read the results,
which means you can do lots of tests fast.
>> Yes, but don't forget there are some organometallic pesticides in common
>> use today now, which are indeed the opposite. On the gripping hand, we
>
>Could you explain what is organometallic pesticides? Is there such
>thing as fluoride pesticide? How can I read about the different kinds
>of pesticides available, pros and cons etc?
It's an organic molecule with a metal in it. I don't know where you would
get good information on available pesticides because they change so much,
but I'd start with a good college library.
I don't know of any pesticides containing fluorine but I'm no expert in
the subject. Fluorine for the most part is a lot more expensive than
chlorine which is often an effective subsitute. Pesticides are engineered
for low cost and low reactivity.
>> also have to contend with the fact that the pesticides used in the field
>> are not exactly reagent-grade and come with all kinds of other contaminants
>> in possibly significant amounts.
>
>What is reagent-grade in layman's terms?
If you buy a bottle of 50% ethanol from a chemical supplier, it will
contain 50% alcohol and 50% water and very little else, and most of the
other items will be listed on the data sheet that comes with it. You can
order with all sorts of different purity requirements... if you need it to
have no detectable iron, you can order one grade, if you need it to have
no detectable chlorine, you can order another. "Chemically pure" reagent
grade is about the lowest laboratory grade you'll see but it's still very
pure compared with vodka over the counter.
A lot of "practical grade" chemicals are much lower than vodka grade,
because they're used in applications where they don't need to be very
pure. If you look at the assay on a fertilizer grade ammonium nitrate,
you'll see it's only about 95% ammonium nitrate and the rest is junk and
God only knows what. But for fertilizer, that's fine.
>Sorry for the bother. I don't really intend to take up too much of
>your time. But if you can point me in the right direction, I will much
>appreciate it.
Call your local extension service and ask for a reference to a local
pesticide chemist.
Nigel
>
> Call your local extension service and ask for a reference to a local
> pesticide chemist.
Good advice but sadly Julian, who is located in the UK, will find it
hard to follow. We no longer have an Extension Service as would be
recognisable by US citizens nor even a Ministry of Agriculture - this
was replaced by DEFRA (Department for Environment, Food and Rural
Affairs) and the extension experts were disbanded long ago. Most of
the practical information quoted by DEFRA is culled from USDA sources!
However, to keep this on-topic aI searched the DEFRA site for "tea
growing" and the first hit is a DEFRA Newsletter mentioning
Tregothnan, the new commercial tea farm in Cornwall where weather is
very similar to that of Darjeeling. I have tasted this tea and was
surprized to find it very similar in taste. The article continues
that it's possible that climate change could extend tea growing to
other areas, particularly with springtime frost growing less common in
southern England - and since its publication I have seen reference to
Taylors of Harrogate planting tea in Yorkshire.
Nigel at Teacraft
juliantai
Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate it.
=============
Further Questions
=============
> >> Yes, but don't forget there are some organometallic pesticides in common
> >> use today now, which are indeed the opposite. On the gripping hand, we
Just out of curiosity, why is organometallic pesticides harm the
drinkers and not the workers?
It is interesting you compare pesticides to vodha, or spirit. Does
that tell me anything about the hot water solubility of this
pesticide?
====
PSD
====
I have found this article in the UK Pesticide Safety Directorate (PSD)
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/food_industry.asp?id=546
As you can see, EU currently have MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE LIMITS for 30
pesticides residuals, with another 40 under discussion.
Not to mention other environmental pollutants.
It kind of struck me that low cost testing doesn't really exist, at
least for now, and the only logical place for comprehensive testing is
in the larger tea gardens, where it is subject to manipulation.
:((
==================
My tentative conclusion
==================
The more I look into this issue, the less I am convinced pollution and
pesticides are an issue, especially if you are drinking a high grade.
First, a lot of tea quality is in the taste, so anyone can do their
DIY testing.
Second, as pointed to me earlier by Chagonwala, we drink only a few
grams of tea leaves each day. Only less than half is soluble in water.
Now compared this to the other foods you eat. Another 300 grams or
more? Do your vegetables and fruits and meats grow in high mountain?
Are they TRULY organic? They don't dissolve in water, do they? Have
they any history of health scare? Do they kill bacteria and virus and
reduce cancer risk?
juliantai
> surprized to find it very similar in taste. The article continues
> that it's possible that climate change could extend tea growing to
> other areas, particularly with springtime frost growing less common in
> southern England - and since its publication I have seen reference to
> Taylors of Harrogate planting tea in Yorkshire.
Nigel, you must be kidding! Maybe we can collaborate and plant some
teas in Sussex? :)
I was very tempted earlier to put my money in an English Wine
company...
Scott Dorsey
>> >> Yes, but don't forget there are some organometallic pesticides in common
>> >> use today now, which are indeed the opposite. On the gripping hand, we
>
>Just out of curiosity, why is organometallic pesticides harm the
>drinkers and not the workers?
Lots of them do harm the workers, especially when excessively applied. A
lot of pesticides that are no longer legal for use in the US because of
safety concerns are still extensively used in other countries.
>It is interesting you compare pesticides to vodha, or spirit. Does
>that tell me anything about the hot water solubility of this
>pesticide?
Well, ethanol is a thing you can get in a lot of forms. It makes it a
convenient reference point.
>http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/food_industry.asp?id=546
>
>As you can see, EU currently have MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE LIMITS for 30
>pesticides residuals, with another 40 under discussion.
>
>Not to mention other environmental pollutants.
>
>It kind of struck me that low cost testing doesn't really exist, at
>least for now, and the only logical place for comprehensive testing is
>in the larger tea gardens, where it is subject to manipulation.
Sure.
>The more I look into this issue, the less I am convinced pollution and
>pesticides are an issue, especially if you are drinking a high grade.
>
>First, a lot of tea quality is in the taste, so anyone can do their
>DIY testing.
>
>Second, as pointed to me earlier by Chagonwala, we drink only a few
>grams of tea leaves each day. Only less than half is soluble in water.
>
>Now compared this to the other foods you eat. Another 300 grams or
>more? Do your vegetables and fruits and meats grow in high mountain?
>Are they TRULY organic? They don't dissolve in water, do they? Have
>they any history of health scare? Do they kill bacteria and virus and
>reduce cancer risk?
Yes, precisely. The thing is, we drink a lot of tea which is farmed
in developing countries under poorly-controlled conditions, and we don't
consume many other products like that. On the other hand, if I were
living in mainland China today, tea would be the last thing I would ever
worry about.
Lewis Perin
> juliantai <juli...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >[...] as pointed to me earlier by Chagonwala, we drink only a few
> >grams of tea leaves each day. Only less than half is soluble in water.
> >
> >Now compared this to the other foods you eat. Another 300 grams or
> >more? Do your vegetables and fruits and meats grow in high mountain?
> >Are they TRULY organic? They don't dissolve in water, do they? Have
> >they any history of health scare? Do they kill bacteria and virus and
> >reduce cancer risk?
>
> Yes, precisely. The thing is, we drink a lot of tea which is farmed
> in developing countries under poorly-controlled conditions, and we don't
> consume many other products like that. On the other hand, if I were
> living in mainland China today, tea would be the last thing I would ever
> worry about.
I don't have numbers for this at my fingertips - does anybody within
the sound of my "voice"? - but the idea that people in developed
countries don't consume much food grown under lax controls in
less-developed countries seems, well, something I wouldn't be able to
prove. Chinese-grown garlic and ginger is definitely sold here in New
York. And there's lots of Mexican produce - how much? - that, in
reality, is how well controlled in the fields and and how well
inspected thereafter?
Space Cowboy
bacteria you didn't kill without boiling water not because of
accumulation of pollutants or pesticides in your body. For those who
find their tea contaminated I'll take it off your hands for FREE. You
pay for shipping.
Jim
PS DDT was causing bird eggs to crack prematurely. Drink too much
water at once you'll die from drowning. Eat all the lead paint you
want as an adult. The FDA is responsible for all agricultural and
seafood imports into this country. I'll guarantee there is more
hazardess artificial preservatives in your refrigerator than your tea.