And my work gave me a second Covid 19 nasal swab test!

[John Kuthe]

In the OTHER nares! :-)

No positive results yet!

John Kuthe....

[Bruce]

On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:06:42 -0700 (PDT), John Kuthe
<johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:

>In the OTHER nares! :-)
>
>No positive results yet!

Just wait until the effect of the George Floyd parties start to come
in.

[itsjoan...@webtv.net]

HA! Ain't that the truth!

[Hank Rogers]

Oh no! I didn't realize poor kuth had attended those shendigs.
Maybe he'll be OK.

[jmcquown]

Oh please don't encourage Bruce. One would hope, as an alleged
healthcare worker, Kuthe is being tested reguarly.

Jill

[Bruce]

On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 18:59:06 -0400, jmcquown <j_mc...@comcast.net>
wrote:

>On 6/8/2020 6:44 PM, itsjoan...@webtv.net wrote:
>> On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 5:21:46 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:06:42 -0700 (PDT), John Kuthe
>>> <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In the OTHER nares! :-)
>>>>
>>>> No positive results yet!
>>>
>>> Just wait until the effect of the George Floyd parties start to come
>>> in.
>>>
>> HA! Ain't that the truth!
>>
>Oh please don't encourage Bruce.

I don't think I said something wrong. Those protesters are idiots
during a corona crisis. Especially the ones outside of the US. It's
not even their business.

[Hank Rogers]

Bruce wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 18:59:06 -0400, jmcquown <j_mc...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On 6/8/2020 6:44 PM, itsjoan...@webtv.net wrote:
>>> On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 5:21:46 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:06:42 -0700 (PDT), John Kuthe
>>>> <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In the OTHER nares! :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> No positive results yet!
>>>>
>>>> Just wait until the effect of the George Floyd parties start to come
>>>> in.
>>>>
>>> HA! Ain't that the truth!
>>>
>> Oh please don't encourage Bruce.
>
> I don't think I said something wrong. Those protesters are idiots
> during a corona crisis. Especially the ones outside of the US. It's
> not even their business.
>

But *everything* in the US is surely your business Druce.

[Cindy Hamilton]

Is there no racism outside the U.S.?

Cindy Hamilton

[Bruce]

Yes, but why protest against it on this scale now? Why not before or
after this corona crisis? By doing it now, a lot more people will be
killed than just Saint George Floyd.

[John Kuthe]

Overpopulation.

John Kuthe...

[Gary]

Bruce wrote:
> Yes, but why protest against it on this scale now? Why not before or
> after this corona crisis? By doing it now, a lot more people will be
> killed than just Saint George Floyd.

This corona virus is the 100-year Earth's purge of the old,
the weak, the difficult, and the stupid. Promotes a healthier
human race.

[Bruce]

The people who join the demonstrations and catch the virus may be
stupid, but they then spread that virus to their relatives, partners
and the rest of society. Who did not join. Especially outside of the
US it's virtue signaling. "Look at what a good person I am. I'm upset
by the death of someone I don't know at the other side of the world!"

[Gary]

It's silly how it's taken off. I suspect many people just like to
be "joiners." Be part of some big movement.

The George Floyd thing is definitely a personal tradegy to his
family but the world-wide reaction is nutty, imo.

[Dave Smith]

It's unfortunate that so many of these incidents are sparked by
incidents involving people who were authors of their own misfortune.
The use of force can get ugly, and this one especially so. There is good
reason for the death of George Floyd to be protested. Unfortunately,
there have been so many similar incidents in the past that many of us
know almost immediately that many of the protests are going to turn into
riots and that many of the people are more interested in a free TV than
justice.

The cops who were involved in Floyd's death have all been fired and
charged. What more do they want?

Cripes they are even protesting up here. While Floyd's death happened
close to 800 miles away in another country. Then they threw in the case
of a black woman who jumped off her 24th story balcony when the cops
came in response to calls from her own family. It didn't help that her
mother made an completely bullshit claim about the cops pushing her
daugther.


I will be more supporters of Black Lives Matter when they start to clean
up their own act and stop killing each other. In the last 10 years there
have been two cases of Toronto cops shooting black people. One was
stabbing at people with scissors and another was armed with a hammer.
Bother had mental issues. Meanwhile, there is at least one young black
man shot by other young black man every week. Then there is Chicago, a
similar sized city where those numbers can be multiplied by 10. I don't
see BLM out there marching to protest the killing of of the other 99%.

[U.S. Janet B.]

These protests are not just about what is happening in Minneapolis, or
Minnesota, or the USA or France or elsewhere on this globe. Racism
and the brutality that goes with it happens all over this planet and
has been happening for centuries. You should have learned from the
pandemic that we are all connected these days thanks to ease of travel
and the wonderful smart phone. What was seen in those cell phone
videos hit sore spots around the globe. It was horrific and people
everywhere responded.
Janet US

[graham]

OTOH a friend and former colleague is from Trinidad and now lives in
Toronto. Her son was pulled over by the cops in a clear case of racial
stereotyping. However, he happens to be a lawyer, lecturing at Osgood
Hall, so they bit off more than they could chew.

[itsjoan...@webtv.net]

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 9:26:23 AM UTC-5, Dave Smith wrote:
>
> I will be more supporters of Black Lives Matter when they start to clean
> up their own act and stop killing each other. In the last 10 years there
> have been two cases of Toronto cops shooting black people. One was
> stabbing at people with scissors and another was armed with a hammer.
> Bother had mental issues. Meanwhile, there is at least one young black
> man shot by other young black man every week. Then there is Chicago, a
> similar sized city where those numbers can be multiplied by 10. I don't
> see BLM out there marching to protest the killing of of the other 99%.
>

You'll never see a black person marching, rioting, protesting, and looting
when they kill each other. It's 'business as usual.' But if that person
has a record as long as your arm, a convicted felon, a dope dealer and he
is killed heaven help us! "Ma baby din't do nuffin." Granny will chime in
with "he was such a sweet boy."

We've got a case here that happened overnight. Kelnisha, age 19, a 'customer
service representative at McDonalds' was mad at her 14-year-old sister because
she didn't get enough chicken. She picks up a knife and tries to stab 14
year-old. Police arrive and she charges out of the house, knife in hand,
and makes a run for mother and sister. Mother tackles dumb ass and the police
haul her stupid butt away and now she's facing charges of aggravated assault
and attempted murder.

Where are the protestors? What time is the candlelight vigil? Where will
they be meeting to draw their signs to carry? What route will they be
marching on?

Crickets, that's all you'll hear when you ask these questions.

[dsi1]

It's pretty much a movement by young people. The older generation will be generally baffled by it all. Hopefully, it will bring about a new spirit of activism. The new generations are going to have to learn to stick together if they want to change the world.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/06/world/gallery/intl-george-floyd-protests/index.html

[Taxed and Spent]

Because there is nobody to blackmail, er, extort, in such situations.
No gain, no feign.

[itsjoan...@webtv.net]

Nailed it!

[Cindy Hamilton]

It reminds me very much of 1967-68. A bunch of people demonstrated, went
home, and nothing really changed. This might well be the same.

Although we can (and should) make institutional changes, fundamentally
nothing will change as long as people teach racism to their children
in the cradle. Aristotle was right.

Cindy Hamilton

[Dave Smith]

The brutality that goes with racism??? How about the violence within
some communities. BLM screams bloody murder if a black man is killed by
a white cop. Sometimes they get killed by black cops and the rage is
quickly doused when they realize it was one of their one. For every
black person killed by a cop there are thousands killed by other black
people. That is the sort of violence that perpetuates stereotypes. So
much more could be done by that movement if they encouraged their
followers to clean up their act.

[Dave Smith]

Black man driving luxury car. Those are the favourite types of cars for
thieves to steal, and they are often used in drive by shootings. Yeah
... it is profiling. I hope that he doesn't ever have to report it
stolen and have the cops afraid to offend a black driver.

[dsi1]

I can't say if this generation is going to finish the work that the boomers aspired to during the civil rights movement. De-funding/disbanding the police is a fairly radical idea. Hopefully, we'll get a chance to see if it works.

[Sheldon Martin]

>No gain, no feign.\

So called African Americans are the most racist people on this
planet... constantly screaming their biblical racial renditions of
clap trap... I couldn't give a fiddler's fuck about some fake jesus
character... there was never any jesus... if he really existed he well
deserved what the imbeciles claim he got. I used to have a grass
cutter who claimed his name was jesus... if you didn't pay attention
he'd cheat you blind... may as well say Kootchie is jesus. hahahaha.
Kootchie aggrivated his father to death just so he could inherit some
crap that he never earned/deserved. You hear me Kootchie, you
murdered your father for some measely dollars that you will squander
in no time.

[U.S. Janet B.]

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 14:14:21 -0400, Dave Smith

you displayed some very strong stereotypes. What about the people of
color who are housewives. doctors, teachers, window washers, office
workers, waiters, cooks, airline attendants? In other words all the
people who do not fit into your profile. It doesn't matter, they all
are in danger of profiling and beating.
Janet US

[U.S. Janet B.]

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:54:36 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
<angelica...@yahoo.com> wrote:
snip

>
>Although we can (and should) make institutional changes, fundamentally
>nothing will change as long as people teach racism to their children
>in the cradle. Aristotle was right.
>
>Cindy Hamilton

absolutely right
Janet US

[GM]

Yep, I was coming of age in the 60's, some peeps were excited about the "change" ahead, what with the hippies, anti - Vietnam protests, racial strife, the status of women, the environment, Vietnam...it was "inevitable" that tectonic changes would come about...in fact I become a member of the NAACP, I felt - and feel - very strongly about racial justice and equity issues...

Some of those issues did eventually change/evolve for the better, but the "Summer of Love" blew up in the late 60's, it ended with Charles Manson, much violence, etc....

And it ended up with - of all people! - Richard Nixon being elected, and then a conservative groundswell with the Reagan era, etc....

More recently, Bernie Sanders - 'memba him? - was The Chosen Instrument to lead a Revolution, but...

Thing is, a lot of these younger folks out protesting/marching don't bother to vote...

For every one of these younger protesters, there a many thousands sitting at home watching the carnage that has been ensuing...they won't forget that come November election time...especially those affluent white suburban women that are a crucial bloc to whomever is going to be elected...

--
Best
Greg

[GM]

Yeah, rotsa ruck with replacing the cops with social workers, lol...

These dingbat millennials want real life to be just like a woke upscale college campus environment, life is not like that...

If anything, many in minority nabes want *more* cops, not less, least that is the case in Chicago, this has been reported on conservative and liberal media:


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/chicago-officials-looting-riots

Distraught Chicago officials heard on tape fuming over looting, riots: 'My ward is a s--t show'

Distraught Chicago officials complained to Mayor Lori Lightfoot -- as looting and rioting in response to George Floyd’s death swept through the Windy City -- pleading for help and warning that the vulnerable had lost access to food and medicine.

According to a tape obtained by WTTW News of an online conference call among the city’s 50 aldermen and the mayor, one alderman could be heard weeping while others angrily decried what was going on in the city.

“My ward is a s--t show,” one alderman says. “They are shooting at the police.”

After the death of Floyd in police custody last month, riots and protests broke out in cities across the country, with many being overwhelmed by the scale of the looting and violence -- even though largely peaceful protests have returned to the streets after that initial surge of unrest.

The call in Chicago was held Sunday, May 31. That day alone, there were 699 arrests -- primarily looters -- 132 officers injured, 48 shootings and 17 homicides, according to CBS Chicago, as well as widespread damage to businesses and other property.

One alderman asked how seniors and vulnerable populations were supposed to get medicine and food if “every CVS, every Walgreens is shutting down.”

“How do businesses recover and why would they want to recover in our community?” another is heard asking.

Lightfoot herself recognized what she described as a “massive, massive problem.” Earlier she described rioters as just f-----g lawless right now.”

“I don’t know about you, but I haven’t seen s--t like this before, not in Chicago,” Lightfoot said.

It's a sign of just how shocked and overwhelmed city officials across the country were by the rioting. Many cities imposed curfews in response, which eventually helped reduce the outbreaks of crime. Illinois Gov. J.B. Pritzker, on Lightfoot's request, called in the National Guard to help deal with the crisis.

On the call, others took aim at Lightfoot herself for her response to the crisis. One man, identified by WTTW News as Ald. Raymond Lopez, demanded that Lightfoot develop a plan to stabilize Chicago’s neighborhoods for five days, calling his Southwest Side ward “a virtual war zone” where armed gang members were threatening to shoot black people.

When he demanded she respond to the remarks, Lightfoot told him he was “100 percent full of s--t.”

“Well, f--k you then,” Lopez responded..."

</>

[Cindy Hamilton]

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 2:41:50 PM UTC-4, GM wrote:

> Yeah, rotsa ruck with replacing the cops with social workers, lol...

Can you say, "Christmas for criminals" ? I knew you could.

Cindy Hamilton

[Ed Pawlowski]

Unfortunately the stereotype is borne out by statistics. In 2013:
there were 3005 white murder victims killed by 2509 whites, 409 black

There were 2491 blacks murdered by 189 whites 2245 blacks

They are 13% of the population but 83% as many murders mostly by blacks.


White 3,005 2,509 409
Black or African American 2,491 189 2,245

Black lives do matter but they have to stop killing each other too!

[dsi1]

As we all know, old folks are not interested in change. They want things to remain the same.

[Hank Rogers]

Popeye, pour me a glass of that crystal palace.

[Cindy Hamilton]

Yes. All of us old folks think racist violence is a beautiful thing.

Cindy Hamilton

[dsi1]

You only say that because you believe that things ain't gonna change.

[Boron Elgar]

Sorry, fella, I do not give a shit what the numbers are, but your
conclusions are racist.

There are newer numbers and ones that also give a better overall view
of the stats themselves along with their interpretations.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers

Just a hint, though:

"The most detailed racial data have limits: They are confined to cases
in which one person was killed and one person did the killing,
eliminating about 17 percent of homicides. Also, police have to know
and provide the backgrounds of not only the victims but the
perpetrators, too – meaning that thousands of cases left unsolved and
with no description of the person who committed the crimes are
discounted. In total, about 61 percent of the 15,696 homicides
committed in 2015 are excluded.

[Hank Rogers]

>>> Distraught Chicago officials complained to Mayor Lori Lightfoot -- as looting and rioting in response to George Floyd’s death swept through the Windy City -- pleading for help and warning that the vulnerable had lost access to food and medicine.
>>>
>>> According to a tape obtained by WTTW News of an online conference call among the city’s 50 aldermen and the mayor, one alderman could be heard weeping while others angrily decried what was going on in the city.
>>>
>>> “My ward is a s--t show,†one alderman says. “They are shooting at the police.â€

>>>
>>> After the death of Floyd in police custody last month, riots and protests broke out in cities across the country, with many being overwhelmed by the scale of the looting and violence -- even though largely peaceful protests have returned to the streets after that initial surge of unrest.
>>>
>>> The call in Chicago was held Sunday, May 31. That day alone, there were 699 arrests -- primarily looters -- 132 officers injured, 48 shootings and 17 homicides, according to CBS Chicago, as well as widespread damage to businesses and other property.
>>>

>>> One alderman asked how seniors and vulnerable populations were supposed to get medicine and food if “every CVS, every Walgreens is shutting down.â€
>>>
>>> “How do businesses recover and why would they want to recover in our community?†another is heard asking.
>>>
>>> Lightfoot herself recognized what she described as a “massive, massive problem.†Earlier she described rioters as just f-----g lawless right now.â€
>>>
>>> “I don’t know about you, but I haven’t seen s--t like this before, not in Chicago,†Lightfoot said.

>>>
>>> It's a sign of just how shocked and overwhelmed city officials across the country were by the rioting. Many cities imposed curfews in response, which eventually helped reduce the outbreaks of crime. Illinois Gov. J.B. Pritzker, on Lightfoot's request, called in the National Guard to help deal with the crisis.
>>>

>>> On the call, others took aim at Lightfoot herself for her response to the crisis. One man, identified by WTTW News as Ald. Raymond Lopez, demanded that Lightfoot develop a plan to stabilize Chicago’s neighborhoods for five days, calling his Southwest Side ward “a virtual war zone†where armed gang members were threatening to shoot black people.
>>>
>>> When he demanded she respond to the remarks, Lightfoot told him he was “100 percent full of s--t.â€
>>>
>>> “Well, f--k you then,†Lopez responded..."

>>>
>>> </>
>>
>> As we all know, old folks are not interested in change. They want things to remain the same.
>
> Yes. All of us old folks think racist violence is a beautiful thing.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>

And we love the party atmosphere of any kind of riot.

[Bruce]

On Tue, 09 Jun 2020 08:58:21 -0600, U.S. Janet B. <J...@nospam.com>
wrote:

>These protests are not just about what is happening in Minneapolis, or
>Minnesota, or the USA or France or elsewhere on this globe. Racism
>and the brutality that goes with it happens all over this planet and
>has been happening for centuries. You should have learned from the
>pandemic that we are all connected these days thanks to ease of travel
>and the wonderful smart phone. What was seen in those cell phone
>videos hit sore spots around the globe. It was horrific and people
>everywhere responded.

It was horrific and the cop is guilty of manslaughter or murder. But
this is a bad time for mass gatherings. Bad, racist and non-racist
crimes happen all the time. There's no reason for French or Dutch or
English people to demonstrate now, during the corona crisis. It's mass
hysteria.

If Australians want to demonstrate against police treatment of
Aboriginals, sure. Before the corona crisis or after, but not during,
please. They don't only endanger themselves but also everybody they'll
be in contact with.

[Cindy Hamilton]

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 3:29:26 PM UTC-4, dsi1 wrote:

> > > As we all know, old folks are not interested in change. They want things to remain the same.
> >
> > Yes. All of us old folks think racist violence is a beautiful thing.
> >
> > Cindy Hamilton
>
> You only say that because you believe that things ain't gonna change.

I think things are going to change. I have my doubts about whether
enough things are going to change.

Cindy Hamilton

[Bruce]

On Tue, 09 Jun 2020 08:18:48 -0400, Gary <g.ma...@att.net> wrote:

>Bruce wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 09 Jun 2020 07:26:59 -0400, Gary <g.ma...@att.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Bruce wrote:
>> >> Yes, but why protest against it on this scale now? Why not before or
>> >> after this corona crisis? By doing it now, a lot more people will be
>> >> killed than just Saint George Floyd.
>> >
>> >This corona virus is the 100-year Earth's purge of the old,
>> >the weak, the difficult, and the stupid. Promotes a healthier
>> >human race.
>>
>> The people who join the demonstrations and catch the virus may be
>> stupid, but they then spread that virus to their relatives, partners
>> and the rest of society. Who did not join. Especially outside of the
>> US it's virtue signaling. "Look at what a good person I am. I'm upset
>> by the death of someone I don't know at the other side of the world!"
>

>It's silly how it's taken off. I suspect many people just like to
>be "joiners." Be part of some big movement.
>
>The George Floyd thing is definitely a personal tradegy to his
>family but the world-wide reaction is nutty, imo.

Yes, it's mass hysteria. If you have any kind of public job or role
and you don't jump on the bandwagon, your career is over. So they all
jump.

[Bruce]

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:21:14 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi...@hawaiiantel.net>

Disbanding the police and then what? Survival of the fittest in the
streets?

[dsi1]

Yoose must be kidding. Everybody in the US carries a gun. Ain't nobody gonna try to pull nutting funny!

[Bruce]

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:05:34 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi...@hawaiiantel.net>

You'd get armed gangs controlling the streets. Leaving the house would
be a big risk.

[U.S. Janet B.]

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 15:02:00 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

what do percentages have to do with how we treat others?

[U.S. Janet B.]

I believe that the idea is to disband a dysfunctional police
department and reconfigure it with a different structure and different
people. Working with a current police department has not worked, the
existing structure and manpower ignored any oversight or rulings.

Janet US

[dsi1]

The forefathers of America weren't dumb. The second Amendment to our Constitution guarantees the people's right to arm bears. We can replace our police force with bands (herds?) of bears with shotguns. In this way shall the tranquility of our nation be assured. Of course, it wouldn't work in yoose town. All you got is meek and mild bears that don't ever leave their trees.

[Bruce]

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:21:09 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi...@hawaiiantel.net>

Ok, you've been at the magic mushrooms again. I'll leave you to it.

[Bruce]

On Tue, 09 Jun 2020 14:19:56 -0600, U.S. Janet B. <J...@nospam.com>
wrote:

Yes, a structural change might be good. I though that by 'disbanding'
they meant getting rid of police altogether.

[Ed Pawlowski]

But the number of black on black homicides is still a higher rate than
any other. The facts are not racist. 13% of the population is
committing a disproportionate number of murders to themselves.

From your source:
Black people have consistently accounted for close to half the country's
homicide victims, making up more than 50 percent of the broader pool of
those killed overall every year since 2010. The number of black victims
increased 15 percent in 2015 over 2014.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Beats me, Why do a small percentage of the population tend to kill each
other more than other segments? Fact is, they do. I guess they don't
teat each other very well.

[dsi1]

It means getting rid of a corrupt bad system and starting anew. Disbanding our Honolulu PD might be a good idea.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/06/09/this-city-disbanded-its-police-department-7-years-ago-heres-what-happened-next/

[Dave Smith]

I displayed strong stereotypes or I referred to some unfortunate facts?

> What about the people of
> color who are housewives. doctors, teachers, window washers, office
> workers, waiters, cooks, airline attendants? In other words all the
> people who do not fit into your profile.

My profile? I referred to the overwhelming number of murders of black
men by other black men. We are talking criminals here, and it's
criminals who cops have to deal with day after day after day. I know
that there are well educated and hard working black people. I do not
automatically associate them with the gun toting thugs who make their
neighbourhoods unsafe. I said that I would be more supportive of BLM if
they would rally against the black people killing other black people.

> It doesn't matter, they all
> are in danger of profiling and beating.

Perhaps in the US. There is a long history of slavery, segregation and
lynching the US. The protests have spread up here, despite the fact that
the vast majority of our black population are recent immigrants. They
weren't slaves here. They great grandparents were slaves here, but we
constantly hear about black racism and 500 years of slavery.

We get the same complaints about natives and blacks being
disproportionately represented in the the courts and jails. Heaven
forbid anyone would ever acknowledge that is a direct reflection of the
crime in their community and the people doing it.

As for profiling..... the police in Toronto and Hamilton were dealing
with a lot of violent crimes, most of it involving drugs and gangs. They
started a program of "carding", checking the ID of people hanging out
in high crime areas. The black and native communities objected, saying
that they were being profiled. After considerable debate and political
interference, the police in those cities were told to stop carding.

The results were almost immediate. The murder rate rose by about 50%.
Despite the number of young black men being murders rising dramatically,
there was not a peep from BLM about the victims in their community.

[Taxed and Spent]

That "disbanding" resulted in many more police in the new department.
That must have had something to do with the results. As did other
changes in approach.

[Dave Smith]

On 2020-06-09 3:02 p.m., Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 6/9/2020 2:22 PM, U.S. Janet B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 14:14:21 -0400, Dave Smith

>> you displayed some very strong stereotypes.  What about the people of
>> color who are housewives. doctors, teachers, window washers, office
>> workers, waiters, cooks, airline attendants?  In other words all the
>> people who do not fit into your profile.  It doesn't matter, they all
>> are in danger of profiling and beating.
>> Janet US
>>
> Unfortunately the stereotype is borne out by statistics. In 2013:
> there were 3005 white murder victims killed by 2509 whites, 409 black
>
> There were 2491 blacks murdered by 189 whites 2245 blacks
>
> They are 13% of the population but 83% as many murders mostly by blacks.
>
>
> White    3,005    2,509    409
> Black or African American    2,491    189    2,245
>
> Black lives do matter but they have to stop killing each other too!

It's a pretty sad day when resorting to hard statistical data are deemed
to be politically incorrect. It is not good to run one's live on a set
of stereotypes, but sometimes people have to come to grips with the idea
that there is often a root cause to those stereotypes.


My son had to deal with racial prejudice when he lived in Africa. He
once got into a fight with a black guy who hated him because he was
white. Lucky for the boy that he had friends who were boxers and he knew
how to fight, plus having some black friends there. The worst racism was
the treatment his black staff were treated with by the Asians.
It ranked up there with the images of treatment of blacks by whites in
the South in the last century.

[Dave Smith]

It looks like it is a matter of how percentages of people treat others.

[Dave Smith]

On 2020-06-09 4:35 p.m., Sqwertz wrote:

> On Tue, 09 Jun 2020 12:22:28 -0600, U.S. Janet B. wrote:
>
>> you displayed some very strong stereotypes. What about the people of
>> color who are housewives. doctors, teachers, window washers, office
>> workers, waiters, cooks, airline attendants? In other words all the
>> people who do not fit into your profile. It doesn't matter, they all
>> are in danger of profiling and beating.
>> Janet US
>

> How about all the good and fair cops? Black or white?
>
There was a big stink when a black guy in NJ <?> died in the back of a
paddy wagon allegedly driven down an especially rough road. It all died
down when it turned out the guys in charge of the vehicle were not white.

[Bruce]

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 17:08:59 -0400, Dave Smith
<adavid...@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>On 2020-06-09 3:02 p.m., Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>
>> Unfortunately the stereotype is borne out by statistics. In 2013:
>> there were 3005 white murder victims killed by 2509 whites, 409 black
>>
>> There were 2491 blacks murdered by 189 whites 2245 blacks
>>
>> They are 13% of the population but 83% as many murders mostly by blacks.
>>
>>
>> White    3,005    2,509    409
>> Black or African American    2,491    189    2,245
>>
>> Black lives do matter but they have to stop killing each other too!
>
>It's a pretty sad day when resorting to hard statistical data are deemed
>to be politically incorrect. It is not good to run one's live on a set
>of stereotypes, but sometimes people have to come to grips with the idea
>that there is often a root cause to those stereotypes.

I wish politically correct people would start by accepting the facts.
And then apply their politically correct ideology. Not the other way
around. They shouldn't filter or deny facts, just because they don't
match the ideology.

[Dave Smith]

On 2020-06-09 4:39 p.m., Ed Pawlowski wrote:

>>
> But the number of black on black homicides is still a higher rate than
> any other.  The facts are not racist. 13% of the population is
> committing a disproportionate number of murders to themselves.
>

Let me quote Arthur Simeon, a Canadian Ugandan comedian.... "That's
racist..... and true."

[Dave Smith]

On 2020-06-09 4:41 p.m., Sqwertz wrote:

> On Tue, 09 Jun 2020 15:33:03 -0400, Boron Elgar wrote:
>

>> Sorry, fella, I do not give a shit what the numbers are, but your
>> conclusions are racist.
>

> Oh for fucks sake. They're not racist. Pointing out the facts and
> using reason and logic is not racist. That Mantra Defense needs to
> stop. Calling somebody a racist for that is simply a cop-out to
> ignore the facts - there is no correlation at all.
>

It is the manta of the week minded. Our idiot prime minister pulled the
same stunt when woman angrily confronted him about the "irregular"
border crossing asylum seekers stream into Quebec. He called her a
racist and they tried to paint her as belonging to a racist group.
She had dared to complain that the federal government was allowing this
people to enter the country illegally by the thousands and leaving the
province with the cost of welfare, housing, health care, education etc.
She had a valid point. If the feds were going to let them in they should
pay for their care. I don't think that is asking too much, but he
dismissed her demand as racist.

[Dave Smith]

They do it in the US. They do it in Canada. They do it in Africa. They
do it in the Caribbean..... It is strange, because so many of them are
really nice people.

[dsi1]

I can't say that I know anything about the effectiveness of these measures but my guess is that doing something is better than doing nothing.

[Ed Pawlowski]

One town did that. It was a way to get rid of some of the bad cops
protected by the union. Everyone is fired, you are unemployed as of
midnight. Oh, we are starting another security force. You can apply if
you'd like. We have high standards and tough rules now.

[Hank Rogers]

Would sure put the quietus on your favorite hobby.

[Dave Smith]

On 2020-06-09 4:39 p.m., Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Wow.... if this women had been white and/or male the comments would have
been declared to be racist. It is an amazing perspective.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtPfoEvNJ74&feature=youtu.be

[Ed Pawlowski]

I grew up in Philadelphia, across the river from Camden. It had a bad
reputation and we never went ther as it was not safe. Sounds like big
changes are helping.

[John Kuthe]

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 6:42:17 AM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Jun 2020 07:26:59 -0400, Gary <g.ma...@att.net> wrote:
>
> >Bruce wrote:
> >> Yes, but why protest against it on this scale now? Why not before or
> >> after this corona crisis? By doing it now, a lot more people will be
> >> killed than just Saint George Floyd.
> >
> >This corona virus is the 100-year Earth's purge of the old,
> >the weak, the difficult, and the stupid. Promotes a healthier
> >human race.
>
> The people who join the demonstrations and catch the virus may be
> stupid, but they then spread that virus to their relatives, partners
> and the rest of society. Who did not join. Especially outside of the
> US it's virtue signaling. "Look at what a good person I am. I'm upset
> by the death of someone I don't know at the other side of the world!"

Spoken like true White Person!

John Kuthe...

[Hank Rogers]

Be sure to wear your face mask when you go out to demonstrate.

[Bruce]

I'm just as much against blacks and anybody else being beaten up and
killed by cops for no reason, as you and the demonstrators are. I'm
just not hysterical.

[Hank Rogers]

If you were black like kuth, you would be hysterical too.

[Leo]

On 2020 Jun 9, , dsi1 wrote
(in article<e6e31609-cc4e-4adf...@googlegroups.com>):

> I can't say that I know anything about the effectiveness of these measures
> but my guess is that doing something is better than doing nothing.

Throughout history, it can be argued that doing nothing would have been
better than doing something, and doing less would have been better than
doing more. In fact, every historical blunder everywhere has been triggered
by one or the other of these ideas.
In general, humanity blunders toward the future. The specialists capitalize
on that and reap the rewards if they survive.

leo

[dsi1]

Nobody can say how things will turn out. What is known is that if things continue the way they have, we're doomed to repeat these events over and over again endlessly. Well, that's my guess, anyway.

OTOH, in some places, the police are just out of control. Imagine your 7 year old granddaughter is at home one evening with your wife and some thugs break the door down to your house, throws in a flash grenade and then shoots your granddaughter in the head, killing her. They arrest your wife on some trumped up charges and later release her. Later on, the thugs are brought to trial and eventually acquitted. Sounds impossible? Not so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Aiyana_Jones

[Cindy Hamilton]

On Wednesday, June 10, 2020 at 4:57:04 AM UTC-4, dsi1 wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 8:56:44 PM UTC-10, Leo wrote:
> > On 2020 Jun 9, , dsi1 wrote
> > (in article<e6e31609-cc4e-4adf...@googlegroups.com>):
> >
> > > I can't say that I know anything about the effectiveness of these measures
> > > but my guess is that doing something is better than doing nothing.
> >
> > Throughout history, it can be argued that doing nothing would have been
> > better than doing something, and doing less would have been better than
> > doing more. In fact, every historical blunder everywhere has been triggered
> > by one or the other of these ideas.
> > In general, humanity blunders toward the future. The specialists capitalize
> > on that and reap the rewards if they survive.
> >
> > leo
>
> Nobody can say how things will turn out. What is known is that if things continue the way they have, we're doomed to repeat these events over and over again endlessly. Well, that's my guess, anyway.

"Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again.
That's why they're called revolutions."

Terry Pratchett.

Cindy Hamilton

[Gary]

Sqwertz wrote:
>
> On Tue, 09 Jun 2020 12:22:28 -0600, U.S. Janet B. wrote:
>

> > you displayed some very strong stereotypes. What about the people of
> > color who are housewives. doctors, teachers, window washers, office
> > workers, waiters, cooks, airline attendants? In other words all the
> > people who do not fit into your profile. It doesn't matter, they all
> > are in danger of profiling and beating.
> > Janet US
>

> How about all the good and fair cops? Black or white?

Yes. And there are many good ones.
Cops mostly deal with the scum of society, black and white.
They know to be ready to get aggessive when necessary.

The current phrase, "Black lives matter"
should read, "All lives matter"

[Bruce]

In 2017, there was this Australian woman living in the US. She heard a
woman being beaten up behind her house. She called the police. A black
police man showed up. She stepped out of her house to talk to him. He
shot her dead.

[Sheldon Martin]

On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 Bruce wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 Gary wrote:
>>Sqwertz wrote:

>>> On Tue, 09 Jun 2020 U.S. Janet B. wrote:
>>>
>>> > you displayed some very strong stereotypes. What about the people of
>>> > color who are housewives. doctors, teachers, window washers, office
>>> > workers, waiters, cooks, airline attendants? In other words all the
>>> > people who do not fit into your profile. It doesn't matter, they all
>>> > are in danger of profiling and beating.
>>> > Janet US
>>>
>>> How about all the good and fair cops? Black or white?
>>
>>Yes. And there are many good ones.
>>Cops mostly deal with the scum of society, black and white.
>>They know to be ready to get aggessive when necessary.
>>
>>The current phrase, "Black lives matter"
>>should read, "All lives matter"
>
>In 2017, there was this Australian woman living in the US. She heard a
>woman being beaten up behind her house. She called the police. A black
>police man showed up. She stepped out of her house to talk to him. He
>shot her dead.

Um... policeman is one word. Are you saying she was shot for being
Australian... she probably stepped outside with her boomerang.

[Taxed and Spent]

How about "good lives matter".

[Cindy Hamilton]

On Wednesday, June 10, 2020 at 7:20:07 AM UTC-4, Gary wrote:
> Sqwertz wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 09 Jun 2020 12:22:28 -0600, U.S. Janet B. wrote:
> >
> > > you displayed some very strong stereotypes. What about the people of
> > > color who are housewives. doctors, teachers, window washers, office
> > > workers, waiters, cooks, airline attendants? In other words all the
> > > people who do not fit into your profile. It doesn't matter, they all
> > > are in danger of profiling and beating.
> > > Janet US
> >
> > How about all the good and fair cops? Black or white?
>
> Yes. And there are many good ones.
> Cops mostly deal with the scum of society, black and white.
> They know to be ready to get aggessive when necessary.

When necessary is the operative term.

It is not necessary to kneel on the neck of a handcuffed man for 8 minutes.
Or, for that matter, for any amount of time.

It is not necessary to knock elderly protesters to the ground.

It is not necessary to run across the street to mace protesters who were
shouting at police officers but offering no violence.

It is not necessary to shoot first and ask questions later.

Cindy Hamilton

[Gary]

It's also not necessary to have any problem with a cop.
When they stop you for any reason, they are in charge.
Only problem people have problems with the police.

[Cindy Hamilton]

Bullshit. Police shoot children all the damned time when the kids
are creating problems such as "being in the wrong place at the wrong
time".

Google "child shot by police" and see the horror.

Cindy Hamilton

[Dave Smith]

On 2020-06-10 9:04 a.m., Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 10, 2020 at 7:20:07 AM UTC-4, Gary wrote:
>> Sqwertz wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, 09 Jun 2020 12:22:28 -0600, U.S. Janet B. wrote:
>>>
>>>> you displayed some very strong stereotypes. What about the people of
>>>> color who are housewives. doctors, teachers, window washers, office
>>>> workers, waiters, cooks, airline attendants? In other words all the
>>>> people who do not fit into your profile. It doesn't matter, they all
>>>> are in danger of profiling and beating.
>>>> Janet US
>>>
>>> How about all the good and fair cops? Black or white?
>>
>> Yes. And there are many good ones.
>> Cops mostly deal with the scum of society, black and white.
>> They know to be ready to get aggessive when necessary.
>
> When necessary is the operative term.
>
> It is not necessary to kneel on the neck of a handcuffed man for 8 minutes.
> Or, for that matter, for any amount of time.

You're right. The knee should have been to the shoulder. That would
have given the cop better control. It might have had the same outcome.
It is also not a good idea to resist arrest.

> It is not necessary to knock elderly protesters to the ground.

I watched the video of the old guy in Buffalo and I am quite sure that
he did that on purpose. Instead of moving out as the cops tried to clear
the area he advanced on the cops. They barely pushed him and he acted
like an Italian soccer player. Unfortunately he overplayed his part and
he got hurt. If you are old and frail you should not be attending
protests ans should not be confronting the police. Not that the man was
a well known activist.

> It is not necessary to run across the street to mace protesters who were
> shouting at police officers but offering no violence.

True. Incidents like that should lead to charges against those cops
who did things like that. Apparently some of them had their names and
badges covered up. If I ran the world, cops that covered up their badges
would be deemed not to be officers and therefore have no authority to
tell anyone to do anything and any charges they try to law would be
thrown out.

> It is not necessary to shoot first and ask questions later.
>

Shoot literally? Rules are different up here, even for cops. They can't
use deadly force unless it is one step up from the force they are facing.

[GM]

The prob is, a lot of younger peeps - and not just minority - do not know how to act when stopped by the police. Countless examples of drivers being pulled over, instead of sitting still they will reach for, say, a cellphone. The cop does not know what they are reaching for, might be a gun, and then BOOM!, the driver is shot, that is what the cops are taught to do...

Peeps do not need to bow and scrape when stopped, but neither should they act in a verbally or physically belligerent manner, just cooperate. Most all of us were taught something along the lines of "Don't do anything to attract the attention of the police"...a good adage to follow.

We live in a society where many have lost respect for authority. In the case of "bad" authority, that is a good thing. But overall, a system will not survive where people are allowed - and even encouraged - to show utter contempt for teachers, LEO, etc...especially when people know there will be no "adverse consequences", and where all consider themselves a "victim". In Shitcago, we have a State's Attorney who routinely lets felons off scot - free, see below*

As for the Floyd case, I suspect there is "far more than meets the eye", that may come out in the trial, especially "video - wise"...

*
https://www.chicagocontrarian.com/blog/how-kim-foxx-has-exceeded-the-authority-of-her-office

How Kim Foxx Has Exceeded the Authority of Her Office

JANUARY 20, 2020 BY FLORIAN SOHNKE

A Progressive theologian hijacks Cook County’s system of justice.

"Hours after the clinking glasses, the merriment, and the mad celebrations observing the New Year fell silent, Chicago police officers with the 1st District were summoned by a 28-year-old man who said he had been the victim of an assault while a travelling on a southbound CTA Red Line train. Responding to the victim, police quickly confronted the offender, Tyrese Parris, who re-acted to police commands by assaulting one officer and kicking another. Despite being charged with one count of felony aggravated battery of a peace officer, two counts of resisting arrest, and two counts of battery, Parris was released after posting a measly $100 bond. A man who obviously has learned little from previous brushes with the law, Parris’ apprehension on January 1st, was the latest in a series of arrests reaching back to May 2019. An odyssey which began a mere eight months ago, Parris was charged with felony robbery, battery, and three counts of theft of lost or mislaid property in May 8. Appearing in court in September for his May crimes, Parris was sentenced to two years probation under a deal which saw the unpleasant lad enter a guilty plea to a reduced charge of theft. Two-and-a-half months later, in incidents weeks apart in December, Parris was twice delivered into the welcoming arms of Cook County prosecutors, who released him after police nabbed him for drug possession and, in the second incident, charged him with possession of burglary tools and trespassing. Despite his probation from his September charge, Parris was released on his own recognizance.

A man whose zeal for criminal behavior never receded during intervals between arrests, the ease with which Mr. Parris was returned to the streets unfortunately encapsulates Cook County’s justice system under Chief Judge of the Circuit Court Timothy Evans, Sheriff Tom Dart, and State’s Attorney Kim Foxx. While Dart and Evans play a critical role in the demise of law and order in Chicago, Kim Foxx is more responsible than others for the failures which have occurred. Although a prosecutor is often confronted with a disordered and troublesome county, in the three years since she became Cook County State’s Attorney, Foxx has made the condition of law and order worse, and in some cases, markedly worse. In the course of her term, Foxx has implemented nearly every policy she envisioned as a candidate. As a result, the cumulative effects of her policy failures have been extraordinarily damaging to Cook County..."

</>

[Dave Smith]

On 2020-06-10 9:15 a.m., Gary wrote:
> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>>

>> It is not necessary to shoot first and ask questions later.
>
> It's also not necessary to have any problem with a cop.
> When they stop you for any reason, they are in charge.
> Only problem people have problems with the police.

Cops can be assholes, but they are still in charge. Some people are
their own worst enemies and talk themselves into more trouble. I am sure
that most people are aware of the fact of attitude adjustment charges.
Those are the tickets for relatively violations that might normally be
verbal warnings but get written up because the person was so
belligerent. I remember one guy that I did it too. I wanted him to get
the message that I was not going to put up with that crap from him, It
worked. Then next time I had dealings with him he very well behaved and
actually apologized for his behaviour in the previous incident. Then
there are the total assholes whose conviction records show multiple
incidents of multiple charges, mostly attitude adjustment charges.


If you get pulled over for something you are much more likely to get off
with a warning if you are polite and respectful. You don't have to
admit that you did wrong but you can apologize for whatever you did
wrong and say you will try to do better.

One of the very few times I charged someone for not wearing a seat belt
was when the belligerent driver told be he won't wear his and I couldn't
make him.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Just being there after a legal curfew was wrong but he was a long time
protester and constitutional activist. To approach a marching policeman
and put your arm out towards him is not a good idea. Turned out is was
a cell phone, easily seen from the angle of the video, not so much from
the angle of the cop. Could have been a knife, gun, needle full of drugs.

There are consequences for your actions. Before anyone says I'm wrong,
go out today and do the same thing to a policeman and tell us what the
consequences were. Think it a good idea?

>
>

>
>> It is not necessary to shoot first and ask questions later.
>>
>
> Shoot literally?  Rules are different up here, even for cops. They can't
> use deadly force unless it is one step up from the force they are facing.

While that makes sense,how much time do you have to determine how much
force you are facing? Cops do get shot and killed while making that
decision and reacting.

[Dave Smith]

Most shootings of police officer happen within seconds of their initial
encounter.

[Boron Elgar]

Let' see your stats.

[Boron Elgar]

On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 11:12:27 -0400, Dave Smith
<adavid...@sympatico.ca> wrote:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/12/26/a-year-of-reckoning-police-fatally-shoot-nearly-1000/?itid=sf_

[itsjoan...@webtv.net]

On Wednesday, June 10, 2020 at 9:02:12 AM UTC-5, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>
> Google "child shot by police" and see the horror.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>

Do you mean Tamir Rice?

[Cindy Hamilton]

Among others, yes.

Cindy Hamilton

[itsjoan...@webtv.net]

On Wednesday, June 10, 2020 at 9:24:53 AM UTC-5, Dave Smith wrote:
>
> If you get pulled over for something you are much more likely to get off
> with a warning if you are polite and respectful. You don't have to
> admit that you did wrong but you can apologize for whatever you did
> wrong and say you will try to do better.
>

Remember when I said I got pulled over Memorial Weekend for speeding? I
didn't act like a jerk, screaming "I know my rights" or argue with the
police. I knew I was speeding so why act like an asshole and rack up a
bunch of tickets? I wasn't dragged out of my car and it wasn't towed and
nobody had to come bail me out of jail.

I drove away with a warning.

Why people want to act like they are in charge of the situation when they're
pulled over is beyond me.

[itsjoan...@webtv.net]

https://i.postimg.cc/zffb28zv/BB-Gun-or-Pistol.jpg

Cameron Tillman --- was armed and that a gun was recovered near his
body. It was later reported that the weapon was a BB gun that
appeared to be a .45-caliber pistol. The cop was not named,
but was identified as an African-American veteran of the division
with no prior infractions.

Laquan McDonald --- After a tire-puncturing spree in late October,
17-year-old Laquan McDonald was shot dead by a police officer in
Chicago. Officers reported to a call about someone breaking into
cars in the Archer Heights neighborhood. The teen refused to drop
his knife, according to officers, fixed them with “a 100-yard stare,”
and walked toward them. That’s when a cop fired at McDonald, killing
him.

Jeffrey Holden --- An 18-year-old was killed by police officers after
opening fire on a cop with two guns in Kansas City in late October.
Jeffrey Holden had reportedly been shooting at houses and passersby
before the authorities arrived at the scene. he was listed as a missing
person and had two outstanding warrants.

Qusean Whitten --- Two armed robbers were killed after holding up a
Dollar General Store in Columbus, Ohio in October. Eighteen-year-old
Qusean Whitten had jumped from the car he was using to flee the scene
and started running when police opened fire.

Sergio Ramos --- In August, an 18-year-old was shot and killed by a
Dallas police officer after a car crash in a parking lot near a Walmart
store. According to police, Sergio Ramos had just robbed a killed an
associate when he was confronted by an off-duty cop, reached for the
gun in his shorts, and was shot multiple times.

There's more.............

Miguel Benton --- In early October, 19-year-old Miguel Benton managed
to steal an officer’s gun and shoot him twice. Two cops were transporting
Benton and another inmate to jail on drug and robbery charges in Georgia
when the incident occurred. Another officer shot and killed Benton.

Levi Weaver --- A man welding a baseball bat and a kitchen knife lunged
at police officers in his home in Georgia, and was fatally shot in late September. According to the sheriff, 18-year-old Levi Weaver begged the
officer to shoot him, and then leapt at him. The officer shot Weaver twice.

[Ed Pawlowski]

The other side of reality
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/09/11/los-angeles-police-video-officer-shot-point-blank-range/1273887002/

https://www.macon.com/news/local/crime/article218275885.html

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/08/11/sc-officer-shot-glasses-camera-orig-vstop.cnn/video/playlists/november-2016-police-shootings/

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bodycam-footage-shows-st-paul-officer-being-attacked-shooting-man-n1058291

[graham]

England is a cup of tea.
France, a wheel of ripened brie.
Greece, a short, squat olive tree.
America is a gun.

Brazil is a football on the sand.
Argentina, Maradona’s hand.
Germany, an oompah band.
America is a gun.

Holland is a wooden shoe.
Hungary, a goulash stew.
Australia, a kangaroo.
America is a gun.

Japan is a thermal spring.
Scotland is a highland fling.
Oh, better to be anything
than America as a gun.

Brian Bilston

[GM]

Thank you, Joan...in all of the above case LEO's response was proper...

As for McDonald, he had been on a lengthy criminal spree by the time he was shot. Unfortunately, the CPD officer who shot him was accused and sent to prison, a miscarriage of justice IMO...

It is very easy in hindsight to be "judge and jury" re: these police actions, but the officers involved had a split - second "life - or - death" decision to make, they did not have minutes or even many seconds to ponder how they should react...

--
Best
Greg

[GM]

Nonsensical airy - fairy rubbish, graham...

--
Best
Greg

[Dave Smith]

That is the advice given in use of force training. I have taken it. If
you want to dispute the source, do your own research.

[Dave Smith]

That's nice, but I was referring to the cops being shot not the person
they were dealing with,

[Cindy Hamilton]

On Wednesday, June 10, 2020 at 1:47:08 PM UTC-4, graham wrote:

You're in America now," I said. "Our idea of diplomacy is showing up with a gun in
one hand and a sandwich in the other and asking which you'd prefer.

Jim Butcher

[Bruce]

Gary's the Mike Pence of RFC. He wants to follow a leader, without
questioning or criticising or using his own brain.

[graham]

Really? To other countries, it seems that you have replaced the sandwich
with the boxing glove!

[GM]

Name some of those "other countries", graham...

--
Best
Greg