Kosher Pays??? (was Re: Proof, you ask for?)
Waldo
"Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
news:Xns939D92B0DD3C...@206.172.150.14...
> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
> news:3eeed6ac$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
> > Perhaps you need further illustration to help you grasp the concept:
> >
> > If Joe of Joe's Vans is approached by the National Association for the
> > Paraplegic (NAP), and at their behest, attaches wheelchair lifts
> > (including the NAP Seal of Approval) to all of his vans, chances are
> > that he will sell a good many vans because of these attachments (and
> > the NAP endorsement). After all, there is a relatively small niche of
> > potential customers who SEEK vans with wheelchair lifts.
> >
> > If, however, the NAP then goes to Ford, GMC, Dodge, Toyota, Nissan,
> > etc and, grandstanding the success of Joe's Vans (and grossly
> > exaggerating the potential market) manages to convince THEM to attach
> > NAP Approved wheelchair lifts on *all* of THEIR vans, not only will
> > any advantage previously held by Joe's Vans (the original NAP approved
> > manufacturer) be lost, ALL of the companies will be losing money by
> > installing costly accessories for which there is comparatively tiny
> > demand.
>
> Not necessarily. That would depend on the cost of such installations and
> the size of the markets, and you have offered no actual or hypothetical
> data on either.
Well, as we're discussing the Kosher market, we know (or at least we are
told by Integrated Marketing Communications) that the size of the Kosher
market is (supposedly) $6.75 billion (US - retail) and is broken down as
follows:
Jews: $3 billion (These are the *only* true Kosher Konsumers)
"Kosher is Better" (LOL!) Goyim: $1.8 billion (These people clearly have no
clue as to what "Kosher" really means!)
"Muslims" $1.8 billion (These are primarily concerned with meats, and would
rather buy Halal than Kosher)
"Vegetarians / Lactose intolerant" $700 million (Veggies are concerned with
avoiding meats, and the Lacties are concerned with avoiding milk)
http://www.koshertoday.com/resourcecenter/charts/scopeandsize.htm
The US foods market in 2002 was +- $450 billion, and according to
KosherTodayOnline, $165 billion worth of these foods (+-36.5%) were marked
as "Kosher Certified" when sold.
http://www.koshertoday.com/resourcecenter/charts/retailsales.htm
However, of the total US foods market in 2002, only 1.5% ($6.65 billion) was
allegedly purchased by Kosher Konsumers.
http://www.koshertoday.com/resourcecenter/charts/dollarsspentconsumr.htm
Of all of the *Kosher Certified* foods sold in the US in 2002, only 4.1%
allegedly reached their intended market. In other words, 95.1% of all Kosher
Certified goods sold were bought by people who didn't care, and likely
didn't know that the goods bore the Kosher Seal.
Keep in mind that this scant 1.5% of the US foods market was being chased by
9,850 foods processing plants producing some 75,000 Kosher Certified
*packaged* products, (an average of 7.6 Kosher Certified products per plant)
http://www.koshertoday.com/resourcecenter/charts/usfoodplants.htm
http://www.koshertoday.com/resourcecenter/charts/numberkoshercertproducts.ht
m
As shown above, the RETAIL market for Kosher in 2002 was allegedly $6.75
billion. Subtract from this a conservative average retail mark-up of 30% and
we're left with $4.72 billion.
Subtract from this a conservative transportation cost of 4% and we're left
with $4.53 billion. This is a generously high approximation of the sales
receipts that all MANUFACTURERS of Kosher certified products received for
goods that were allegedly bought *because they were KOSHER* in 2002.
With me so far? Good.
Foods manufacturers generally work on a very slim profit margin - usually
about 10%. So after costs of goods sold, packaging, labor, overhead, etc, a
company that does $10 million in gross sales will be left with about $1
million in "profits". So, of the appx $4.53 billion in gross sales of goods
allegedly purchased *because* they were Kosher, only about $453 million
could be counted as gross profits - (I say *gross* profits because, from
these "profits" *must* be deducted each and every penny that was spent by
each and every manufacturer, their suppliers, their suppliers, and *their*
suppliers on obtaining, maintaining and *implementing* Kosher
certification - including paying off the Kash-R-Us agencies)
How much (gross) "profit" did the average foods plant producing Kosher
goodies realize from Kosher sales? $453 million / 9,850 plants = $45,989.00
per plant (This is not enough to pay the salary of ONE union employee for
one year)
How much (gross) "profit" did the average packaged Kosher Certified
_product_ realize from Kosher sales? $453 million / 75,000 products = $6,040
per Kosher Certified product. (This wouldn't cover the cost of ONE batch of
product lost doe to some obscure Kosher violation in most plants)
Pathetic, isn't it?
Now, start subtracting the COSTS of Kosher: Exactly what are the costs of
obtaining, maintaining and implementing Kosher Certification - well, there's
a puzzler for you. It will vary on a case-by case basis, but you can be sure
that it will include paying a Kash-R-Us agency to come in and inspect your
plant, your equipment, your processes, your recopies, ingredients and
preparation methods, your books, your suppliers, etc. (in other words,
you're opening the door to industrial espionage).
In many cases, you'll be required to buy new equipment, run an extra shift
of personnel, build a new production line, or possibly even a new production
plant.
Many man-hours will need to be devoted to transitioning to Kosher and
staying that way. Oftentimes the Kash-R-Us agency will require that one of
their flunkies be kept on site during all production - and he'll need a
company employee as an envoy to see that his demands are carried out, as he
won't be getting his hands dirty.
Then of course there are batches of product that, while being otherwise
perfectly good, must me tossed out for some tiny Kosher infraction ($$$$),
and G_d forbid there should be a Kosher Recall of your product(s) once they
reach store shelves ($$$$$$$$$).
So what ARE the costs of Kosher, Steve?
What? You don't know?
Well, at least we both now know that if they cost, on average over $6,040.00
per product, or $45,989.00 per plant, or $450 million for the entire country
(and they most certainly DO) that Kosher is, on the whole, a LOSING
PROPOSITION. In other words, the unwitting Gentiles are paying to give Jews
the privilege of eating Kosher from a can.
But hey, look at the bright side! You Jews are making out like bandits!
The VAST majority of Kosher Certified products are of no interest to ANYONE
other than Jews. But then, Kosher is a "Jew thing", and is based purely on
Jewish religious superstitions.
Jews invented Kosher, Jews profit from the Kosher Industry, and Jews benefit
from readily available and CHEAP (Gentile subsidized) Kosher Goodies.
(Why does this whole scenario remind me of the US' relationship with that
parasite called Israel?)
Now, back to vans:
> You take it as a given in this hypothetical example that
> each new firm contemplating the change would not take the existing level
> of competition for this particular market into account when making the
> decision as to whether to enter that market. In short, you are taking it
> as a given that Ford, GMC, Dodge, Toyota and Nissan are run by idiots.
Well, I don't know about Ford, GMC, Dodge, Toyota and Nissan, but it would
certainly appear that those who run most of the plants that produce Kosher
Certified goods need to get a clue.
> Indeed, were they to install these costly accessories into all of their
> vans, then, given the scale of production, they would likely squeeze
> Joe's little operation out of the market.
Yep.
> But when you apply this logic
> to the case of kosher certification, it hardly looks like a "Jewish
> scam". Given that the small-scale specialty producers catering
> exclusively to the kosher market are almost inevitably Jewish-owned,
> they're the ones who get squeezed out of business when larger food
> companies mass produce comperable kosher products at a lower cost.
So a Jew screws another Jew for the sake of a buck. So what else is new?
> I would venture to guess that in the end, even taking into account the
> increased activity of kosher-certifying agencies, the net result is an
> outflow of capital from the Jewish community.
Nah. Before the OU and the other big Kash-R-Us agencies came along, Kosher
was pretty much a cottage industry - small time Jewish operators running
small scale operations at a relatively HIGH cost - and their SOLE market was
their Jewish neighbors, who paid relatively HIGH prices - so every penny of
revenue came from their fellow Jews.
Since the Kash-R-Us boom, major manufacturers are running LARGE scale
operations at a relatively LOW cost, most of which is born by the Goyim who
unwittingly (and unwillingly) subsidize the nutritional needs of Jews. Sure,
a few small-time Jewish operators bit the weenie, but now ALL Jews are
eating cheap and easy, so the Yid community as a whole won the equivalent of
the Kosher lotto! Get it?
> > The question is, WHY would all of these other van manufacturers
> > install wheelchair lifts when there are so *few* paraplegics? "Well"
> > say the NAP promoters (who get a nice chunk of change for inspecting
> > and endorsing these wheelchair lifts), "wheelchair lifts *aren't* just
> > for the paraplegic these days! They are in great demand by FAT people,
> > PREGNANT people, OLD people, "Wheelchair Lifts are Better" people,
> > parents with children in STROLLERS, and above all, LAZY people!"
> >
> > The NAP promoters then produces lots of fancy charts and statistics
> > (all of which were gathered and compiled by an "independent
> > organization" known as "OSPNAPE" (Organization for the Shameless
> > Promotion of National Association for the Paraplegic Endorsements,
> > which seems to be the *only* source for such statistics to be found on
> > the planet) showing that wheelchair lifts are THE THING to put on vans
> > these days, 'the wave of the future', and warns the van manufacturer
> > that they stand to lose a valuable segment of the market to their
> > competitors if they fail to install NAP Approved lifts.
> >
> > Is the above *still* too complicated for you?
>
> Right. So devoid of any actual knowledge of whether the benefits
> outweigh the costs,
See above - and as this is the SECOND time I've had to Krunch the Kosher
numbers for you, I'd think that the LEAST you could do would be to make at
least a milquetoast effort at trying to show that the costs of Kosher are
MUCH smaller than they obviously are. But you seem to be content with
flailing your arms and sputtering insults.
> you insert into your hypothetical example the
> assumption that this organization (NAP) has exaggerated and lied to their
> customers,
Ok. So they lied. It's what con men do - and they do it CONVINCINGLY, that's
why they're successful.
> and that their customers are too lazy and stupid to do their
> own research into the costs and benefits of their own business decisions.
What you call "lazy and stupid" could probably better be described as
trusting, gullible, naive, and above all, politically correct to the point
of being scared shitless. How do you think Jesse Jackson and his Rainbow
Push group are able to 'convince' major companies to hire Blacks and do
business with Black firms - even when these firms know damn well that their
best interests are not being served?
Do Blacks have a reputation for being whiney, pushy, and strident? They're
NOTHING next to Jews. And Steve, this is COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
> You have yet to cite any evidence that this is the case with regard to
> kosher certification. Do you know what begging the question means,
> Waldo?
You've seen the figures I posted above. You'd better get busy making up
reasons why they can't be correct or otherwise making excuses for the Kosher
Kabal.
> >> If the benefit of an increased market didn't offset the cost, and
> >> thus resulted in an overall increase in net costs, why the hell would
> >> they do it?
> >
> > The same reason that people (and corporations and huge investment
> > houses) bought stock in ENRON and all of those dot-com companies that
> > went belly-up overnight, Steve. They were riding a bubble based on
> > speculation which was in turn based on flawed or falsified
> > information.
>
> And you accuse us of making dumb comparisons. Individuals investing
> their money badly because they've been misled is very different than a
> company making a bad business decision.
"Individuals investing money"? Read what this Jewess had to say:
____________________________
M A R K E T W A T C H
"Enron Shares a Small Part of Many Mutual Funds"
Money Wise, by Marilyn Cohen
Q. I own shares in the Fidelity Magellan mutual fund. I noticed that it
owned shares of Enron stock. Will Enron's downfall affect my fund? A.
Fidelity Magellan, as well as most mutual funds, sold its Enron position
before the final devastating price drop to under $1 a share (down from more
than $80 a share a few months ago).Magellan used to be the fifth largest
mutual fund holder of Enron stock according to Morningstar...
_____________________________
http://www.lmtonline.com/lmtbusiness/archive/121701/jrnl6.pdf
So now you're going to tell us that the Fidelity Magellan mutual fund is not
a massive company, but just some poor sap of an individual who happened to
buy Enron?
You dolt.
> You say that the companies in question are making their decisions based
> on flawed or falsified information, yet you fail utterly to present any
> evidence that this is the case.
Let's just say that the Kash-R-Us agencies and IMC (the Kosher industry's
marketing arm) are not presenting their potential clients with the full
picture of the TRUE size and scope of the so-called "Kosher Market", and
which segments of that market are likely to buy which goods and why. In
fact, until recently, the IMC website represented the segments of "Kosher
Consumers" as numbers of *individuals* rather than dollars spent by that
segment, and even went so far as to say that Jews were NOT the largest
segment of the Kosher market - and of course they weren't - in numbers, but
they ARE in dollars spent.
More to come.
> You have no idea what the costs and
> benefits of kosher certification are, either for any given product or
> across the industry, whereas one would expect that the companies making
> these decisions do.
One would expect - unless they are gullible enough to trust the ONLY
information that has been compiled on the industry - and this has been
compiled by JEWS.
> The justification you seem to be able to make for
> your claim that you know something they don't is your simple belief that
> Jews are dishonest, and therefore that *something* dishonest, just *must*
> be going on.
>
> You're shooting blanks, fool.
Your shot, Steve.
Try not to snip, stuff strawmen, or raise red herrings, ok?
**
Waldo
Observer at Large
Brian Blank
wrote:
Right from the get go, you prove yourself unable to understand the
difference between "mark up" and "margin".
$6.75 billion at an average mark up of 30% = a cost of $5.19 billion.
Go back to school and learn the difference between mark up and margin.
Regards,
Brian Blank
Vilco (out)
>
> Brian Blank
Try to quote, it could help...
Vilco
PENMART01
<novil...@tinspam.it> writes:
>> Regards,
>>
>> Brian Blank
>
>Try to quote, it could help...
^^^^^^^
STOP CROSS POSTING, YOU FUCK FACED WOP! ( * ,, * )
( (!) )
___
---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Waldo
"Brian Blank" <nota...@earthlink.spamblocker.net> wrote in message
news:jqi0fvsagcmq2erri...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 17 Jun 2003 23:24:10 -0700, "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> >news:Xns939D92B0DD3C...@206.172.150.14...
> >> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
> >> news:3eeed6ac$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
> >
<some irrelevant material snipped>
Good point Brian, and thank you for calling this faux pas to my attention.
In fact, it appears that all of my numbers need to be re-worked, but first
it would be helpful to get a better idea on what typical mark-ups are at
retail grocery stores.
Consider the following from a study conducted by Robert Barsky, University
of Michigan; Mark Bergen, University of Minnesota; Shantanu Dutta,
University of Southern California; and Daniel Levy, Emory University which
analyzed the retail markup at a large Chicago area grocery store chain
(Dominick's):
____________________
http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~cozden/levy_00_15_paper.pdf
" This data includes not only the prices and quantities sold by UPC, but
also the retailers' margins on each
product, which allows us to measure the markup ratios for national brands
based on wholesale rather than retail prices. We find that markup ratios
measured this way range from 2.5 for crackers and 2.3 in the analgesics
category to 1.2 in canned tuna, with the majority of categories in the range
1.4 to 1.7. These data also allow us to measure retailer's markups over
wholesale costs."
____________________
According to the study, retail markups ranged from 1.2 to 2.5. However, as
the majority of items fell in the 1.4 to 1.7 range, we will use the average
of these two (1.55) for our new calculations. Is that reasonable?
Now, assuming that the average retail mark up was cost x 1.55, we find that
the MARGIN was not 30 %, but roughly 35.4%.
So, this takes my previously generous figure of $4.72 billion (cost of goods
@ retail) and *reduces* it by +- $360 million to $4.36 billion ($4.36 x 1.55
(mark up) = $6.758 - 35.4% (margin) = $4.365 (retailer costs).
Unfortunately, your nit-picking has only served to further darken the
already gloomy prospects of profitability in the Kosher industry, hasn't it?
In the interest of accuracy, let's re-work the figures with the wonderful
information that you have brought to our attention, shall we? I'll re-post
my calculations with the corrected retail mark-up being 1.55 (a 35.4%
margin), which brings the down the cost of goods sold @ retail from $4.72
billion to $4.36 billion.
<Begin re-post with adjusted figures - Thanks Brian>
_____________________________
[starting with $4.36 billion]
Subtract from this a conservative transportation cost of 4% and we're left
with $4.18 billion. This is a generously high approximation of the sales
receipts that all MANUFACTURERS of Kosher certified products received for
goods that were allegedly bought *because they were KOSHER* in 2002.
With me so far? Good.
Foods manufacturers generally work on a very slim profit margin - usually
about 10%. So after costs of goods sold, packaging, labor, overhead, etc, a
company that does $10 million in gross sales will be left with about $1
million in "profits". So, of the appx $4.18 billion in gross sales of goods
allegedly purchased *because* they were Kosher, only about $418 million
could be counted as gross profits - (I say *gross* profits because, from
these "profits" *must* be deducted each and every penny that was spent by
each and every manufacturer, their suppliers, their suppliers, and *their*
suppliers on obtaining, maintaining and *implementing* Kosher
certification - including paying off the Kash-R-Us agencies)
How much (gross) "profit" did the average foods plant producing Kosher
goodies realize from Kosher sales? $418 million / 9,850 plants = $42,436.50
per plant (This is not enough to pay the salary of ONE union employee for
one year)
How much (gross) "profit" did the average packaged Kosher Certified
_product_ realize from Kosher sales? $418 million / 75,000 products =
$5,573.30
per Kosher Certified product. (This wouldn't cover the cost of ONE batch of
product lost doe to some obscure Kosher violation in most plants)
_______________________________
<End re-post with adjusted figures>
Good job, Brian. And thanks for helping to maintain accuracy.
Of course, in many instances, the transportation cost of 4% would be
*included* in the cost of goods sold - so feel free to disregard that factor
if you like. Either way, we cannot deny the fact that Kosher is a losing
proposition on the larger scale, can we?
<snip>
> Go back to school and learn the difference between mark up and margin.
Not that it would do YOU any good.
But don't you believe for a single second that your input on this matter has
not been appreciated, Brian. :-)
Philip Mathews
The amount of Kosher certified food which reached the Kosher market
was the amount the manufacturers expected to be reached.
> Keep in mind that this scant 1.5% of the US foods market was being chased by
> 9,850 foods processing plants producing some 75,000 Kosher Certified
> *packaged* products, (an average of 7.6 Kosher Certified products per plant)
LOL!!!!!
Those 9,850 plants produced $165 billion dollars worth of food, all of
it purchased and consumed by consumers.
> http://www.koshertoday.com/resourcecenter/charts/usfoodplants.htm
>
> http://www.koshertoday.com/resourcecenter/charts/numberkoshercertproducts.ht
> m
> As shown above, the RETAIL market for Kosher in 2002 was allegedly $6.75
> billion. Subtract from this a conservative average retail mark-up of 30% and
> we're left with $4.72 billion.
You're talking about the margin, not the markup.
> Subtract from this a conservative transportation cost of 4% and we're left
> with $4.53 billion.
Irrelevant. All food has a transporation cost.
> With me so far? Good.
Yes grasshopper, you have come far.
> Foods manufacturers generally work on a very slim profit margin - usually
> about 10%. So after costs of goods sold, packaging, labor, overhead, etc, a
> company that does $10 million in gross sales will be left with about $1
> million in "profits". So, of the appx $4.53 billion in gross sales of goods
> allegedly purchased *because* they were Kosher, only about $453 million
> could be counted as gross profits - (I say *gross* profits because, from
> these "profits" *must* be deducted each and every penny that was spent by
> each and every manufacturer, their suppliers, their suppliers, and *their*
> suppliers on obtaining, maintaining and *implementing* Kosher
> certification - including paying off the Kash-R-Us agencies)
This is where poor Waldo stumbles every time!!
His own analysis has shown $453 million of incremental profits. His
problem is he doesn't know the cost of certification, so he always
ends his dive from the high board with a belly flop.
> How much (gross) "profit" did the average foods plant producing Kosher
> goodies realize from Kosher sales? $453 million / 9,850 plants = $45,989.00
> per plant (This is not enough to pay the salary of ONE union employee for
> one year)
This is "Waldo filler"! It adds nothing to the discussion or analysis.
> How much (gross) "profit" did the average packaged Kosher Certified
> _product_ realize from Kosher sales? $453 million / 75,000 products = $6,040
> per Kosher Certified product. (This wouldn't cover the cost of ONE batch of
> product lost doe to some obscure Kosher violation in most plants)
Batches of product can be lost under any type of quality assurance
program.
This is yet another meaningless measure meant to obscure the fact that
Waldo can't complete the play even using his own analysis. He can't
show that Kosher certification costs more than the incremental profit
> Pathetic, isn't it?
Yup, next you'll be breaking it down by the number of consumers who
purchase it.
> Now, start subtracting the COSTS of Kosher:
Watch how he addresses this!!!!
>Exactly what are the costs of
> obtaining, maintaining and implementing Kosher Certification - well, there's
> a puzzler for you.
In other words, Waldo doesn't know.
>It will vary on a case-by case basis, but you can be sure
> that it will include paying a Kash-R-Us agency to come in and inspect your
> plant, your equipment, your processes, your recopies, ingredients and
> preparation methods, your books, your suppliers, etc. (in other words,
> you're opening the door to industrial espionage).
ROTFL!!
He can't produce a number, so now we're supposed to worry about
"espionage".
> In many cases, you'll be required to buy new equipment,
Waldo doesn't have a clue how many cases would require this, but he
hopes using the word "many" will sound like a lot.
>run an extra shift
> of personnel,
Waldo hasn't a clue how often this happens.
>build a new production line, or possibly even a new production
> plant.
More variables Waldo would like you to believe are common, but about
which he has no statistics.
> Many man-hours will need to be devoted to transitioning to Kosher and
> staying that way.
Waldo doesn't know how often additional man-hours will be required, or
how many.
>Oftentimes the Kash-R-Us agency will require that one of
> their flunkies be kept on site during all production - and he'll need a
> company employee as an envoy to see that his demands are carried out, as he
> won't be getting his hands dirty.
Oftentimes? See how less precise Waldo is now than when he was
before?
> Then of course there are batches of product that, while being otherwise
> perfectly good, must me tossed out for some tiny Kosher infraction ($$$$),
> and G_d forbid there should be a Kosher Recall of your product(s) once they
> reach store shelves ($$$$$$$$$).
Gee, problems with batches of product only occur for Kosher products
in Waldo's world.
> So what ARE the costs of Kosher, Steve?
> What? You don't know?
The only people who know the costs are the companies who undertake
Kosher certification. They happen to be businessmen who know the
difference between markup and margin, and know how to assess any costs
associated with the production part of the process which Waldo
struggles in vain to exaggerate.
This is what sticks in Waldo's craw. He can't show that Kosher
certification costs more than the incremental profits it generates.
And yet, he will assert it does because he hates Jews.
> Well, at least we both now know that if they cost, on average over $6,040.00
> per product, or $45,989.00 per plant, or $450 million for the entire country
> (and they most certainly DO)
Except, poor Waldo can't show they do!
(remaining embarrassment snipped)
--
Philip Mathews
Steven Mock
news:3ef005dc$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
<snip: Waldo's usual manipulation of figures irrelevant to the
discussion. It has been exposed so many times I've lost count, but most
recently in <Xns939D8B00FF3...@206.172.150.14>
> "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> news:Xns939D92B0DD3C...@206.172.150.14...
>> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
>> news:3eeed6ac$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
>
>> You take it as a given in this hypothetical example that
>> each new firm contemplating the change would not take the existing
>> level of competition for this particular market into account when
>> making the decision as to whether to enter that market. In short,
>> you are taking it as a given that Ford, GMC, Dodge, Toyota and Nissan
>> are run by idiots.
>
> Well, I don't know about Ford, GMC, Dodge, Toyota and Nissan, but it
> would certainly appear that those who run most of the plants that
> produce Kosher Certified goods need to get a clue.
Right, whereas you're the genius who, with no specific data whatsoever,
has managed to uncover it. Pull the other one, fool.
>> Indeed, were they to install these costly accessories into all of
>> their vans, then, given the scale of production, they would likely
>> squeeze Joe's little operation out of the market.
>
> Yep.
>
>> But when you apply this logic
>> to the case of kosher certification, it hardly looks like a "Jewish
>> scam". Given that the small-scale specialty producers catering
>> exclusively to the kosher market are almost inevitably Jewish-owned,
>> they're the ones who get squeezed out of business when larger food
>> companies mass produce comperable kosher products at a lower cost.
>
> So a Jew screws another Jew for the sake of a buck. So what else is
> new?
Wow, you are a closet communist aren't you. You think it is inherently
immoral for someone who is able to mass producte a better product at a
lower price to do so in free competition.
>> I would venture to guess that in the end, even taking into account
>> the increased activity of kosher-certifying agencies, the net result
>> is an outflow of capital from the Jewish community.
>
> Nah. Before the OU and the other big Kash-R-Us agencies came along,
> Kosher was pretty much a cottage industry - small time Jewish
> operators running small scale operations at a relatively HIGH cost -
> and their SOLE market was their Jewish neighbors, who paid relatively
> HIGH prices - so every penny of revenue came from their fellow Jews.
>
> Since the Kash-R-Us boom, major manufacturers are running LARGE scale
> operations at a relatively LOW cost, most of which is born by the
> Goyim who unwittingly (and unwillingly) subsidize the nutritional
> needs of Jews. Sure, a few small-time Jewish operators bit the weenie,
> but now ALL Jews are eating cheap and easy, so the Yid community as a
> whole won the equivalent of the Kosher lotto! Get it?
So basically, you agree with what I said, you just don't think I was
mindlessly abusive and derisive enough against Jews while I said it.
Large companies mass producting food products can produce kosher food
cheaper than do small Jewish-owned specialty producers, and hence are
able to capture a significant share of the market when they kosher
certify an existing product. They make more money by accessing that new
market, and kosher consumers get better products at a lower cost. That
is not a scam. Making money by producing a better product at a lower
cost to the consumer is precisely the point of a competitive free market
economy.
But it is further proven not to be a scam by the fact that you have
failed to refute my assertion that the net result is an outflow of
capital from the Jewish community. You see, while the overall result is
that Jews get better kosher products at a lower cost (a benefit to those
consumers), a significantly larger percentage of their food budget is
going to non-Jewish businesses, whereas before almost all of their food
budget stayed within the community when it went to specialty kosher
firms. A pretty counterproductive scam, I would say, eh Waldo?
No Waldo, you have produced no numbers of any significance. Just your
usual smoke and mirrors (see <Xns939D8B00FF3Fsmocknizkororg@
206.172.150.14>).
You see, Waldo, you and I have something in common. Neither of us are,
at present, familiar with the precise costs or benefits of kosher
certification either across the whole of the industry or (more
importantly) for any given product.
You seem to think that your argument is stronger because you are willing
to make up facts to support it, rather than simply relying on what you do
know along with the basic common-sense principles of free market
economics as I do.
I disagree.
>> you insert into your hypothetical example the
>> assumption that this organization (NAP) has exaggerated and lied to
>> their customers,
>
> Ok. So they lied. It's what con men do - and they do it CONVINCINGLY,
> that's why they're successful.
Right. Like I said, you assert this as an assumption into you
hypothetical case, begging the question of whether this actually applies
to the situation we are discussing.
So show us a lie told by kosher certifying agencies to their customers.
And do be sure to demonstrate that it is, in fact, a lie, and not just
something you personally refuse to believe. I'd also appreciate it if
you'd offer some explanation as to how it is that you were able to
uncover the lie, whereas companies who have far more information about
the manufacture and sale of their own products, and whose businesses
depend on such information, either failed to or haven't bothered.
>> and that their customers are too lazy and stupid to do their
>> own research into the costs and benefits of their own business
>> decisions.
>
> What you call "lazy and stupid" could probably better be described as
> trusting, gullible, naive, and above all, politically correct to the
> point of being scared shitless. How do you think Jesse Jackson and his
> Rainbow Push group are able to 'convince' major companies to hire
> Blacks and do business with Black firms - even when these firms know
> damn well that their best interests are not being served?
>
> Do Blacks have a reputation for being whiney, pushy, and strident?
> They're NOTHING next to Jews. And Steve, this is COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Right. Like I said, you have no evidence for your case. You can not
cite a single concrete example. All you have is wild speculation based
on the fact that you hate and mistrust Jews and are convinced that they
just MUST be doing SOMETHING dishonest.
<some aimless diversion and blustering snipped>
>> You say that the companies in question are making their decisions
>> based on flawed or falsified information, yet you fail utterly to
>> present any evidence that this is the case.
>
> Let's just say
Which is my point. "Let's just say..." is all you've got.
> that the Kash-R-Us agencies and IMC (the Kosher
> industry's marketing arm) are not presenting their potential clients
> with the full picture of the TRUE size and scope of the so-called
> "Kosher Market", and which segments of that market are likely to buy
> which goods and why. In fact, until recently, the IMC website
> represented the segments of "Kosher Consumers" as numbers of
> *individuals* rather than dollars spent by that segment, and even went
> so far as to say that Jews were NOT the largest segment of the Kosher
> market - and of course they weren't - in numbers, but they ARE in
> dollars spent.
>
> More to come.
Of course. Evidence tomorrow, and evidence yesterday, but never evidence
today.
>> You have no idea what the costs and
>> benefits of kosher certification are, either for any given product or
>> across the industry, whereas one would expect that the companies
>> making these decisions do.
>
> One would expect - unless they are gullible enough to trust the ONLY
> information that has been compiled on the industry - and this has been
> compiled by JEWS.
Right. Jews and involved and Jews must be lying. That's all you've got.
And why do you jump to the conclusion that the information they get from
the certifying agencies is the only information available to them? Your
argument seems to be based on the assumption that the largest food
companies in the world know nothing about the manufacture and sale of
their own products.
Steven Mock
--
"I may not agree with your bumper sticker;
but I'll defend your right to stick it." - Ed Anger
Brian Blank
wrote:
That's a good idea.
>
>Consider the following from a study conducted by Robert Barsky, University
>of Michigan; Mark Bergen, University of Minnesota; Shantanu Dutta,
>University of Southern California; and Daniel Levy, Emory University which
>analyzed the retail markup at a large Chicago area grocery store chain
>(Dominick's):
>
>____________________
>
>http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~cozden/levy_00_15_paper.pdf
>
>" This data includes not only the prices and quantities sold by UPC, but
>also the retailers' margins on each
>product, which allows us to measure the markup ratios for national brands
>based on wholesale rather than retail prices. We find that markup ratios
>measured this way range from 2.5 for crackers and 2.3 in the analgesics
>category to 1.2 in canned tuna, with the majority of categories in the range
>1.4 to 1.7. These data also allow us to measure retailer's markups over
>wholesale costs."
>
>____________________
>
>According to the study, retail markups ranged from 1.2 to 2.5. However, as
>the majority of items fell in the 1.4 to 1.7 range, we will use the average
>of these two (1.55) for our new calculations. Is that reasonable?
No, simply because of the mix of products involved in the study. I
note that the study mentions the fact that you can't compare apples to
oranges.
>
>Now, assuming that the average retail mark up was cost x 1.55, we find that
>the MARGIN was not 30 %, but roughly 35.4%.
Sigh, my point was that you did not know the basics, i.e the
difference between margin and mark-up.
>
>So, this takes my previously generous figure of $4.72 billion (cost of goods
>@ retail) and *reduces* it by +- $360 million to $4.36 billion ($4.36 x 1.55
>(mark up) = $6.758 - 35.4% (margin) = $4.365 (retailer costs).
So?
>
>Unfortunately, your nit-picking has only served to further darken the
>already gloomy prospects of profitability in the Kosher industry, hasn't it?
No, not at all. You see, the cost of certification is borne by the
manufacturer and subsequently becomes part of the cost of the product.
Now it seems to me that you should be bitching about the incredibly
large profit margins of the retailers because that obviously increases
your expense in buying from them.
>
>In the interest of accuracy, let's re-work the figures with the wonderful
>information that you have brought to our attention, shall we? I'll re-post
>my calculations with the corrected retail mark-up being 1.55 (a 35.4%
>margin), which brings the down the cost of goods sold @ retail from $4.72
>billion to $4.36 billion.
And?
>
><Begin re-post with adjusted figures - Thanks Brian>
>_____________________________
>
>[starting with $4.36 billion]
>
>Subtract from this a conservative transportation cost of 4% and we're left
>with $4.18 billion. This is a generously high approximation of the sales
>receipts that all MANUFACTURERS of Kosher certified products received for
>goods that were allegedly bought *because they were KOSHER* in 2002.
>
>With me so far? Good.
Wrong again. Cost of transportation is part of the manufacturing cost.
Just like packaging, advertising, fixed overheads. You can't just
subtract them.
>Foods manufacturers generally work on a very slim profit margin - usually
>about 10%. So after costs of goods sold, packaging, labor, overhead, etc, a
>company that does $10 million in gross sales will be left with about $1
>million in "profits". So, of the appx $4.18 billion in gross sales of goods
>allegedly purchased *because* they were Kosher, only about $418 million
>could be counted as gross profits - (I say *gross* profits because, from
>these "profits" *must* be deducted each and every penny that was spent by
>each and every manufacturer, their suppliers, their suppliers, and *their*
>suppliers on obtaining, maintaining and *implementing* Kosher
>certification - including paying off the Kash-R-Us agencies)
Absolutely and including the cost of toilet paper in the executive
washrooms. Do you have a point?
>
>How much (gross) "profit" did the average foods plant producing Kosher
>goodies realize from Kosher sales? $418 million / 9,850 plants = $42,436.50
>per plant (This is not enough to pay the salary of ONE union employee for
>one year)
Wrong, the 10% is a net figure (you deducted overheads in your
paragraph above), so taking your figures, i.e. including overheads, it
the figure is profit for the stockholders. Now tell me, why won't you,
as I have suggested before, buy some stock in (one of) the companies
involved and bitch to them? Unless you have some stake in the matter,
nobody cares about your whining and moaning.
If on the other hand you are claiming that the cost of Kosher
certification rises prices to you at the consumer level, why don't you
complain to the retailers about the extremely large margins they are
working on?
Well, Waldo, what's stopping you from complaining to the companies
involved?
Let's see, your complaints are that Kosher certification does what
exactly?
Rise the consumer price? Buy shares in a food company and complain.
Reduce the profits of the food manufacturer? Buy shares in that
company and complain.
Why do you post your complaints here? Is it simply because you feel
you have no other recourse or is it because you hate Jews?
Tell me, if you buy a new car and it breaks down, do you take it back
to where you bought it and get them to repair it, or do you simply
post to alt.honda or whatever?
I'm really interested, I'm trying to get a handle on why you take such
a cowardly approach to your complaints. If you consider them to be
really justified, why don't you do something about it? Is there a
large streak of yellow running down your back?
Regards,
Brian Blank
Waldo
"Philip Mathews" <phil...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c6bd4de7.03061...@posting.google.com...
Enter Philip Mathews, stage left, who apparently couldn't keep himself from
blurting:
> The amount of Kosher certified food which reached the Kosher market
> was the amount the manufacturers expected to be reached.
>
> > Keep in mind that this scant 1.5% of the US foods market was being
chased by
> > 9,850 foods processing plants producing some 75,000 Kosher Certified
> > *packaged* products, (an average of 7.6 Kosher Certified products per
plant)
>
> LOL!!!!!
>
> Those 9,850 plants produced $165 billion dollars worth of food, all of
> it purchased and consumed by consumers.
No, those plants produced $165 billion worth of KOSHER foodstuffs, only 4.1%
of which was purchased by anyone who gave a shit about Kosher, the other
95.1% was paid for by Gentiles who reap no benefit whatsoever from the
implementation of Jewish religious superstitions. This means that ALL costs
associated with Kosher certification - every last penny - had to be paid for
by the 'profits' generated by that 4.1% of sales to Kosher Konsumers.
Do you understand this point, or would you like to ask Nancy to beat you
about the head and shoulders with a sock filled with Kosher Certified rice
until the lights come on?
> > http://www.koshertoday.com/resourcecenter/charts/usfoodplants.htm
> >
> >
http://www.koshertoday.com/resourcecenter/charts/numberkoshercertproducts.ht
> > m
>
> > As shown above, the RETAIL market for Kosher in 2002 was allegedly $6.75
> > billion. Subtract from this a conservative average retail mark-up of 30%
and
> > we're left with $4.72 billion.
>
> You're talking about the margin, not the markup.
Ah, so you read Mr. Blank's post. If you read my response you'll see that it
didn't exactly help to bolster your case.
> > Subtract from this a conservative transportation cost of 4% and we're
left
> > with $4.53 billion.
>
> Irrelevant. All food has a transporation cost.
So it does, but what you fail to understand is that we are trying to
approximate the total sales revenue for all packged Kosher goods sold in
2002 at the MANUFACTURER LEVEL, and as the recipients are generally
responsible for transportation costs (and thus would be part of their base
for cost of goods sold), these must generally be subtracted to arrive at an
approximation that has any semblence of accuracy.
> > With me so far? Good.
>
> Yes grasshopper, you have come far.
Thanks, Philip.
> > Foods manufacturers generally work on a very slim profit margin -
usually
> > about 10%. So after costs of goods sold, packaging, labor, overhead,
etc, a
> > company that does $10 million in gross sales will be left with about $1
> > million in "profits". So, of the appx $4.53 billion in gross sales of
goods
> > allegedly purchased *because* they were Kosher, only about $453 million
> > could be counted as gross profits - (I say *gross* profits because, from
> > these "profits" *must* be deducted each and every penny that was spent
by
> > each and every manufacturer, their suppliers, their suppliers, and
*their*
> > suppliers on obtaining, maintaining and *implementing* Kosher
> > certification - including paying off the Kash-R-Us agencies)
>
> This is where poor Waldo stumbles every time!!
>
> His own analysis has shown $453 million of incremental profits.
Actually, after Mr. Blank pointed out my faux pas WRT 'mark up' vs 'margin',
it was recalculated to only $418 million - $35 million less than before.
(Thanks Brian!)
> His
> problem is he doesn't know the cost of certification,
And are we to suppose that YOU DO, Philthy? If so, why are you keeping it a
secet from us???
> so he always
> ends his dive from the high board with a belly flop.
Well, we do know that there are over 200 Kash-R-Us agencies operating in the
US, and that just THREE of these employ over 1,000 Rabbis. We also know (as
has been proven to you before) that implementing the demands placed on
industry by these Rabbis is EXPENSIVE. A few examples from a previous post
on the subject: (This is long, but frankly Philip, you are one thick-headed
dolt)
<Begin re-post>
http://www.yikgh.org/torch471.htm
____________________
APPRECIATING THE MASHGIACH
Too often we think of a mashgiach in a food processing plant as someone
of mediocre talent, an individual who turned to hashgacha because he could
not do anything else. No doubt, as in most professions, there are those who
excel while others remain mediocre mashgichim. To appreciate the task facing
a mashgiach, let us consider what supervising a typical margarine facility
involves.
Margarine is comprised of oil, water, emulsifiers, and some coloring.
This blend is hydrogenated (set up for solidifying) using various catalysts
and then whipped into solids or soft spreads through a tubular spinning
refrigerator known as a votator. From the votator, the product continues to
the packing line where it is molded and packaged.
Simple. right?
Well, consider for a moment the following issues facing kosher
production. Keep in mind that many plants produce lard-based and/or
gelatin-based margarine (non-kosher) in the low-fat varieties. All margarine
plants produce a dairy variety in addition to a pareve one.
The process flow is:
1) The aqueous phase, where a brine of water and/or milk and
emulsifiers are blended.
2) Churn tanks, where oil and coloring (beta carotene) are added to
the blend.
3) Run tanks, where the entire mixture is processed in final stage
before the votator.
The piping lines between all these tanks look like a massive network of
crisscross and are often interchangeable. The mashgiach must master the
layout of the plant in order to determine that kosher/pareve is connected to
kosher/pareve.
If kashering is done in the plant, the mashgiach must be able to trace
the lines to ensure that the proper equipment is being kashered. He must
also monitor the temperature at various points to check that the water is at
its boiling point throughout the entire kashering process.
Sometimes, the kosher/dairy/non-kosher lines will meet at a manifold
where simply switching an elbow pipe causes the direction of the different
lines to instantly change. The mashgiach along with the kashrut organization
must devise a fail-safe system to prevent such mishaps.
All cooking in factories is done in steam-facilitated kettles, which
means that hot water circulates through the thermal walls of these kettles
and carries on to the next kettle. Water circulating around a kettle takes
on the status of that kettle. If non-kosher water were to begin circulating
around a kosher kettle, all the product in that kettle would become treif.
Therefore, a system must be devised to prevent the commingling of water
circulating around the kettles. This task requires an in-depth knowledge of
the plant's boiler and plumbing systems.
All margarine processors have remelt, i.e., product that does not meet
specifications or which spilled out on the side during packing. This product
gets returned to the beginning of production to be reprocessed. The remelt
is either manually transported or "hard-piped" back to the starting area.
When the product is hard-piped, the pipes are usually traced with hot
water to keep the product soft. Here too, the tracer water must remain
separate. And, great care must be exercised to see that dairy, pareve, or
non-kosher remelt is transported to the beginning of its respective line.
All of this does not take into account the complexities of kashering the
kettles, lines, heat exchanges, votators, or packing lines. Nor does it take
into account monitoring ingredients and overseeing bulk deliveries of oils,
not to mention the kashrut status of the trucks or rail cars used to deliver
these oils.
So, the next time you see a mashgiach for a reputable organization, give
him a well-deserved "Y'Yasher Kochacha."
_____________________
Do you still think that Kash-R-Us fees are the only expense companies face
in the Kosher process?
As noted in the above article, boilers and "steam kettles" are used
extensively in the foods industries. The steam which circulates around these
steam kettles creates a major problem for superstitious Jews, who believe
that the "flavor" of a non-kosher product can pass through **solid stainless
steel** and into a closed steam system, and then AGAIN through **solid
stainless steel** and into Kosher products being heated by the same boiler!
If this is a problem for Jewish superstition, it is a MAJOR headache (and
expense) for companies trying to satisfy the Jews, whose beliefs defy the
laws of physics.
Read this:
____________________
http://www.kosherconsumer.org/boilers.htm
Boilers In Kosher Production
In order to process/ cook food you need heat. In the commercial & industrial
food processing, steam & hot water are used extensively. We will first
explain the basics of the "Steam" boiler operating system, & then the
concerns to the kosher consumer afterwards. The source used for steam and
hot water is a "boiler", heated by different fuels. A "Boiler" is a closed
vessel containing water. The water in a steam boiler is pressurized and
turned into steam when heat is added. The steam is then directed to
different locations for use in processing food or food ingredients. The
water that is lost in the steam cycle must be replaced. It takes one pound
of water to produce one pound of steam. The boiler does different functions,
it holds the water, transfers heat to the water to make steam, and collects
the steam that is produced. The fire heats the water to about 212F and the
water begins to boil and turns to steam. A pipe is put on top of the lid of
the container (boiler) so the steam flows up through the pipe and leads the
steam to where it is needed.
The most efficient way to operate a boiler is to minimize the cost of
producing the steam, or increasing the amount of steam while using the same
amount of fuel. One way is by increasing the heating surface of the boiler,
so that more heat is transferred to the water to produce steam. Some boilers
use a large heating surface, it would be like laying the boiler on its side
(the scotch marine type). Some boilers will use "fire tubes" (pipes), where
the water passes through the pipes and the heat is on the outside. Others
will have the heat passing through the pipes and the water on the outside of
the pipes. The container, heat & water are still present, the only
difference is that more water is put next to the heated metal.
Water in the boiler is heated and turns to steam. The steam leaves the
boiler by a pipe or pipes called the "Main", where it enters the "Header".
From the header the steam enters branch lines, & is carried into risers &
then to the steam heating equipment, usually a double walled vessel. The
food /ingredient is in the equipment on one side of the wall & the steam is
on the other side of the wall of the equipment. At this point the steam in
the heating unit cools and turns to water called "condensate". The
condensate is separated from the heating equipment by a "steam-trap" that
allows condensate (water), but not steam, to pass through. The condensate
goes into a "condensate-return-line", to a vacuum tank. A vacuum pump
creates a vacuum that helps draw the water out of the condensate return line
& in to the vacuum tank. The vacuum pump returns the water condensate to the
boiler through the feed-water line. Once it has returned to the boiler, the
water/ condensate again is turned into steam and the process repeats itself.
Usually some additional (pre-heated) city water will also be required, as
not all of the steam can be recaptured & returned as condensate.
Steam is used to heat product by direct injection of live steam directly
into the product. Our discussion is on low-pressure steam boilers, up to 15
psi =(pounds per square inch). There is also the cast iron sectional boiler.
A steam boiler is not filled with water to the top, so to leave room for the
steam and for expansion. As the steam pressure increase there is a
corresponding increase in the steam temperature. As an example steam at 10
psi is 240F, steam at 15 psi is 250F. There will be a number of parts on a
boiler to distinguish the steam boiler from the water boiler. We will list
some of them; on the steam boiler: there will be a sight glass (attached to
a water column) on the boiler to see the level of the water in the boiler. A
pressure gauge 0-30 psi, connected to the highest part of the steam side of
the boiler via a siphon (either a U-tube or a pigtail siphon). A safety
valve (15 psi maximum). A low water cut-off, if the water in the boiler
drops too low & there isn't sufficient make-up water from the condensate &
or fresh water the boiler will shut down. A pressure control will be
installed to control the boiler pressure. A number of blow-down valves to
clear out the dirt & sludge from the boiler parts & from the water column.
Fresh water that is added to the boiler contains minerals, impurities etc.
which will settle on the tubes in the boiler and cause deterioration of the
boiler so chemicals are usually added to the boiler overcome these and other
problems. Most of the chemicals do not travel with the live steam but remain
in the boiler or condensate. There will be additional fittings near the
heating unit. Some of them are, a strainer, a trap, a condensate return
line, a pump & a condensate holding tank.
Some of the kosher concerns: The steam/condensate that comes in contact with
the wall of the vessel heating the food product that is on the other side of
the wall will absorb the taste of the product in the kettle. If the product
is a non-kosher product it will render the steam/condensate non-kosher as it
has absorbed the non-kosher taste. If the product is meat or dairy the
steam/condensate will absorb the taste and become either meat or dairy. The
steam condensate returns to the boiler and is reused, but we can only use it
for the same type of product meat/dairy/non-kosher. To complicate the matter
we may have many different kettles receiving their steam from the same
source. The question remains how can we cook at the same time utilizing the
same steam heat source? Solutions?
One possibility is to drain the water from the boiler, the condensate tank
and all of the lines. We would then leave it empty for 24 hours before
filling up with fresh clean water. We would of course kosherize if need be.
It would still not solve the problem of using the boiler for incompatible
(=meat & dairy, non-kosher) product at the same time. We can disconnect the
condensate return line from the non-compatible product, so the condensate
will not return to the boiler. Some kosher certifiers will not use steam to
heat incompatible product even when the condensate does not return to the
boiler. In certain cases with some modifications they may allow the use. The
goal is to introduce some way to make the boiler water / condensate
unpalatable to humans (an unpleasant/or bitter taste). When the condensate
water is unpalatable to humans, the condensate does not become meaty/dairy
or non-kosher.
We can introduce to the boiler chemicals that will achieve that goal. Most
chemicals that are added to the boiler water do not travel with the steam.
As the water turns to steam the chemicals and the impurities remain in the
boiler water. Some of it eventually turn to sludge which has to be cleaned
out. We need a chemical or product that will render the water unpalatable to
humans and will also travel with the steam. There are a number of chemicals
available, 2 of the chemicals that are commonly used are pine-oil & Bitrex.
(Bitrex is the most bitter substance known). The exact amount of chemical to
put in would depend on a number of factors. In the event that the
manufacturing process uses live injected steam in some of their products we
can not use the above solution. In the event that we can not introduce to
the condensate water a chemical to make it unpalatable, and we can only
introduce a chemical that remains in the boiler it will have to be unfit for
even a dog's consumption, which is a much higher concentration than for
humans. Some kosher certifiers have introduced certain other chemicals to
alleviate the above concerns, while other certifiers do not agree to accept
those chemicals as satisfying the requirements. We can encounter the same
problems in non-steam systems also. The circulating hot water system and the
heat exchanger type system. Some of these are used in chocolate
manufacturing systems. Many of the chocolate manufacturers do dark chocolate
and milk chocolate as well. The same water used for heating the chocolate
product may go from a dark chocolate conch or holding tank to one holding a
milk chocolate, and vice versa.
__________________________
Need more? Try inedibles:
(emphasis mine, my comments in [brackets] )
______________________
http://www.aristechchem.com/overview/kosher.htm
" . . .While we do not ingest acetone directly, it is used to manufacture
the CONTAINERS in which kosher food is PACKAGED, and, therefore, must meet
the Kosher Code requiring that acetone be certified. . .
" . . . In compliance with Kosher Code requirements and as part of the Good
Manufacturing Practices (GMP), tankers should be used that are SOLELY
dedicated to hauling acetone or other petrochemical products that do NOT
come in contact with animal-derived materials. If the tanker was used for
these types of materials, the tanker must be properly cleaned and "HOT
SANITIZED." The tanker and ALL its OFF-LOADING LINES and PUMPS must be
thoroughly cleaned and a wash out slip must be provided stating that the
tanker has been cleaned and sanitized before loading can proceed. The wash
out slip, along with information on the prior load, will accompany the
shipment to any kosher acetone customer. This assures the customer that all
precautions have been taken to avoid possible contamination of the product."
[NOTE: the above procedures need have NOTHING to do with "sanitation" in the
general sense. The procedures outlined are meant solely to satisfy Jewish
RELIGIOUS laws. and this is for ACETONE, an inedible solvent used in
PLASTICS production]
__________________________________
What about "contaminated" equipment???
__________________________________
http://www.koshertodayonline.com/kosher%20today%20archives/2001/0201/TECHNOL
OGY%20RAISES%20MANY%20QUESTIONS.htm
" Another concern that we have in the kosher industry is EQUIPMENT
CONTAMINATION. A company may produce a kosher product and the formula
presented to the certifying agency listing all of the ingredients. While the
components may be good, the question is about the equipment? Is the
equipment used by the company utilized interchangeably? In other words, do
they produce KOSHER and NON-KOSHER in the same tank? If so, how is it
KOSHERIZED from one product to the other? Is it being MONITORED? Are any of
the products marinated for OVER 24 HOURS in any given piece of equipment?
These are questions that companies have to be aware of, that will be asked
by the supervising agency. . . .
" . . . .There is also a problem with shipping bulk liquids. The tank cars.
The trucks. What did they carry before they were loaded with the kosher
product? . . . "
__________________________
There are several companies that specialize in performing the highly
specialized cleaning that the Kash-R-Us agencies demand tanker trucks
undergo before they are allowed to carry Kosher products. (see "Acetone"
above) A tanker that had just delivered a load of premium grade olive oil
would be forced to undergo a Kash-R-Us cleaning before it could haul
"Kosher" olive oil.
Then there is Passover. Did you ever notice that Coca Coal tastes different
if purchased in certain areas of the country (ie, New York) around the time
of Passover? Do you know why? Coke is normally sweetened with corn
sweetners, but these are FORBIDDED to Jews during Passover, and so, during
this time, Coke switches to CANE SUGAR, to please the Jews.
That is just ONE of the many insanities that companies must undergo at
Passover:
Here are some others:
________________________
http://www.koshertodayonline.com/kosher%20today%20archives/1998/0298/Prepara
tions%20for%20Passover%20A%20Military%20Operation%20In%20Many%20Institutions
.htm
Preparations for Passover A Military Operation In Many Institutions
The process of preparing plants and institutional kitchens for Passover
requires a special expertise which has become even more complex in our
technologically advanced society. For plants which do special Passover runs,
the process generally means shutting down the production line and cleaning
the machinery to remove all traces of chametz (leavened bread). Corn oil,
for example, must be replaced with cottonseed oil, corn syrup with sugar and
so forth. Grain vinegars are replaced with petroleum distillates. All vats
and tubing must be thoroughly cleaned to remove all chametz ingredients
before the rabbis will permit the special run which will earn it the KP
label or "Kosher for Passover" designation.
In resorts around the world preparing for their special holiday programs,
kitchens will be literally taken apart, piece by piece, and every nook and
cranny will be searched for any remnants of the forbidden chametz prohibited
by Jewish law on Passover. This year Jews will be celebrating Passover in
resorts in Hawaii, British Columbia, Italy, Miami, Orlando, the Pocono
Mountains, the Catskills, Deep Creek Lake, Maryland, Spain, Aruba, Ft.
Lauderdale, Las Vegas, San Diego, Virginia, Acapulco, Cancun, Hungary,
Newport, R.I. and, of course, all over Israel.
Food service facilities such as hospitals, nursing homes, and restaurants
will also be undergoing rigorous cleaning. Some of these processes are:
Ovens may require using blowtorches to produce enough heat to vaporize any
leavened remains, and sinks and adjacent surfaces will also be kosherized
for Passover. Attention will also be given to dishwashers, warming cabinets,
counter tops, broilers, steam kettles, deep fryers, silverware, glasses,
chafing dishes, and serving trays. Wooden, ceramic and plastic items cannot
be kosherized for Passover. Industrial producers may have to close down
production for several days to properly clean and kosherize the facilities
for Passover production.
The kosherizing process is performed under the watchful eye of a rabbi
especially trained to oversee this procedure. The facility must be
meticulously cleaned before koshering actually commences. Once completed,
all shelves, ovens, pantries, and countertops are covered with several
layers of heavy duty aluminum foil.
Rabbis must also pay attention to all ingredients used in the preparation of
Passover foods. In some places this begins several months before the
production is scheduled. Orders must be placed early and every element of
food preparation and service must be thoroughly reviewed. The rabbi has to
make sure that no chametz is brought in once the kashering is completed. (If
any chametz comes in contact with a kosherized item, the item may need to be
kosherized a second time). He will also make sure that employees do not eat
their meals or snacks anywhere near the koshered area.
When involved in the koshering of a facility for Passover, one can not help
but feel the pressure of paying attention to all of the myriad details. One
must literally have a thousand eyes to prevent anything from going wrong. In
many places, the koshering process is such a major undertaking that it is
every bit like a military operation. When the consumer sits down to
participate in the Passover seder, he does not have any idea of how intense
the kosherizing process was and how much effort went into preparing foods
that are certified "Kosher For Passover." But then again, children might not
appreciate what mother went through to prepare the house for the eight day
holiday.
________________________________
And what happens when a mistake is made, and non-Kosher product that has
been mistakenly marked "Kosher" gets onto the market??
Shit hits the fan - that's what. Very expensive shit!
________________________________
http://www.ok.org/homemaker/chanukah99/kosher.html
Correction
What happens when we find a problem? Our primary goal is to protect the
buying public. When a mistake is made, whether the error is the fault of the
O.K. or of the food company, we immediately take all necessary steps to
alert those who may be affected. In the case of a product that product is
available at the retail level, we notify the public that a mistake has been
made. Notification generally is accomplished by advertisement in one or more
popular Jewish newspapers. We also post such alerts on our website, at
"Kosher Alerts." Other kosher-oriented sites, such as kashrut.com, pick up
these alerts. We also arrange for notices to be posted in synagogues.
Simultaneously we are in contact with the food company to make arrangements
for withdrawal of the offending item from the market. Often the integrity of
a company can be measured by its reaction to a situation of this nature.
Recently a consumer E-mailed us concerning a Kraft product. The consumer had
been in the hospital and was served Jell-O Strawberry Gelatin that carried
an O.K. symbol on the label and yet contained animal gelatin.
[Oh my GOD! Call 9-1-1 !!!]
Aware that no major kashrus agency in the U.S. accepts gelatin from a
non-kosher source in its products, the consumer sensed that the product was
mislabeled.
Kraft products have been O.K.-certified for many years, and the relationship
between our two companies is excellent. Upon receiving the package from the
consumer, we immediately went to work with Kraft to recall the product. I am
pleased to report that we received full-fledged cooperation from Kraft.
At the time this incident unfolded, I was at home recuperating from an
illness. Working via phone and E-mail, we set up a conference call with top
Kraft personnel. Dana Coleman, who is Kraft's Quality Assurance Manager, was
of invaluable assistance as we ironed out a solution.
On Wednesday, Sept. 14, Kraft issued an alert to all personnel dealing with
foodservice items. (Foodservice refers to items sold to hospitals, used on
airlines, and other such markets rather than retail stores.) The memo
stated: "A Quality Defect Alert has been issued for foodservice 3.5 oz.
Jell-O Strawberry Gelatin. Due to a printing error, the foil lid contains
the 'Circle K Pareve' kosher symbol . . . Foodservice Distributors should be
instructed to dispose of the product . . . Your immediate action is required
to complete the following actions by 1:30 p.m., C.D.T., Friday, September
17."
By the target date, the product was completely withdrawn from the market. In
the space of four days, the problem had been solved. This alacrity
demonstrates Kraft's commitment to its kosher program and to the kosher
consumer, and I am happy to acknowledge Kraft's willingness to move
mountains in this regard.
[I'll bet THAT was cheap]
The Jell-O case is a perfect example of where you, the consumer, plays a
role in maintaining kashrus standards. You are an important line of defense,
and we ask again that you report any kashrus concerns to us.
We pray that the time will come, speedily and in our days, when Mashiach
will arrive and we will eat, with perfect confidence in its kashrus, from
the Leviathan fish.
________________________
<END REPOST>
So Philthy, considering the above, (and remember, we're talking about 9,850
plants producing some 75,000 products) what do you think happens to the $418
million in "profits' allegedly gained by sales to the Kosher Konsumers?
> > How much (gross) "profit" did the average foods plant producing Kosher
> > goodies realize from Kosher sales? $453 million / 9,850 plants =
$45,989.00
> > per plant (This is not enough to pay the salary of ONE union employee
for
> > one year)
>
> This is "Waldo filler"! It adds nothing to the discussion or analysis.
Considering the above (which you'll undoubtedly SNIP in your reply, hoping
that no one notices) I'm afraid it shows very clearly that for most
companies, Kosher is a LOSER.
> > How much (gross) "profit" did the average packaged Kosher Certified
> > _product_ realize from Kosher sales? $453 million / 75,000 products =
$6,040
> > per Kosher Certified product. (This wouldn't cover the cost of ONE batch
of
> > product lost doe to some obscure Kosher violation in most plants)
>
> Batches of product can be lost under any type of quality assurance
> program.
Kosher has NOTHING to do with "quality assurance". It is based PURELY on
Jewish religious superstition, many of which are in direct contradiction to
natural laws (i.e. 'flavor' that passes through walls of stainless steel,
contaminating steam in a closed system, LOL!).
What company needs batches of goods worth thousands or tens of thousands of
dollars tossed out because some Rabbi howls that the "wrong steam" heated
the kettles in which it was cooked, or that the equipment was only sitting
idle for only 23 hours when Jewish superstitions require 24 hours?
> This is yet another meaningless measure meant to obscure the fact that
> Waldo can't complete the play even using his own analysis. He can't
> show that Kosher certification costs more than the incremental profit
How can one tell whether a given bridge will support a particular truck
without damaging the structure of the bridge when one does not know the
precise weight of the truck? We can begin by discovering the maximum amount
of weight that the bridge can safely bear, and we can begin looking at the
load that the truck is transporting, compare similar trucks, etc. and get a
damn good idea. We don't have to know the amount of pressure in the tires or
the precise weight of the driver's toupee to reach an accurate estimation -
particularly when we're dealing with an issue as obvious as this.
Kosher is a disaster - an ethnocentric drain on the economy.
> > Pathetic, isn't it?
>
> Yup, next you'll be breaking it down by the number of consumers who
> purchase it.
>
> > Now, start subtracting the COSTS of Kosher:
>
> Watch how he addresses this!!!!
>
> >Exactly what are the costs of
> > obtaining, maintaining and implementing Kosher Certification - well,
there's
> > a puzzler for you.
>
> In other words, Waldo doesn't know.
Neither does Philip - and he wouldn't know ANYTHING about the subject if I
and others in this forum hadn't taught him - not that he's been a willing
student.
> >It will vary on a case-by case basis, but you can be sure
> > that it will include paying a Kash-R-Us agency to come in and inspect
your
> > plant, your equipment, your processes, your recopies, ingredients and
> > preparation methods, your books, your suppliers, etc. (in other words,
> > you're opening the door to industrial espionage).
>
> ROTFL!!
>
> He can't produce a number,
Why don't YOU produce a number for us, Philthy?
> so now we're supposed to worry about
> "espionage".
>
> > In many cases, you'll be required to buy new equipment,
>
> Waldo doesn't have a clue how many cases would require this, but he
> hopes using the word "many" will sound like a lot.
Read above. For starters, virtually ANY plant that wishes to produce goods
that are Kosher for Passover would have to buy new equipment.
> >run an extra shift
> > of personnel,
>
> Waldo hasn't a clue how often this happens.
>
> >build a new production line, or possibly even a new production
> > plant.
>
> More variables Waldo would like you to believe are common, but about
> which he has no statistics.
>
> > Many man-hours will need to be devoted to transitioning to Kosher and
> > staying that way.
>
> Waldo doesn't know how often additional man-hours will be required, or
> how many.
>
> >Oftentimes the Kash-R-Us agency will require that one of
> > their flunkies be kept on site during all production - and he'll need a
> > company employee as an envoy to see that his demands are carried out, as
he
> > won't be getting his hands dirty.
>
> Oftentimes? See how less precise Waldo is now than when he was
> before?
As opposed to you, Philip. You are consistent only in your act of squirm,
squeal, dodge and subterfuge.
> > Then of course there are batches of product that, while being otherwise
> > perfectly good, must me tossed out for some tiny Kosher infraction
($$$$),
> > and G_d forbid there should be a Kosher Recall of your product(s) once
they
> > reach store shelves ($$$$$$$$$).
>
> Gee, problems with batches of product only occur for Kosher products
> in Waldo's world.
Is that right, Philip? Look here:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=%22kosher+alerts%22
> > So what ARE the costs of Kosher, Steve?
>
> > What? You don't know?
>
> The only people who know the costs are the companies who undertake
> Kosher certification.
So you admit that you're just wildly flailing your arms in a JudaeoPhilipic
frenzy?
> They happen to be businessmen who know the
> difference between markup and margin,
Oooh. That hurt. (that is, it hurt *you*).
> and know how to assess any costs
> associated with the production part of the process which Waldo
> struggles in vain to exaggerate.
So what do you figure the total annual national costs of obtaining,
maintaining and implementing Kosher are, Philip? Fifty dollars? Fifty
million? Five hundred million?
> This is what sticks in Waldo's craw. He can't show that Kosher
> certification costs more than the incremental profits it generates.
> And yet, he will assert it does because he hates Jews.
So says Philip, who is nothing more than a couch potato defender of all
things Jewish.
> > Well, at least we both now know that if they cost, on average over
$6,040.00
> > per product, or $45,989.00 per plant, or $450 million for the entire
country
> > (and they most certainly DO)
>
> Except, poor Waldo can't show they do!
>
> (remaining embarrassment snipped)
Once again, I regret having to embarass you like this, Philip.
Philip Mathews
And we are introduced to the level of argumentation the anonymous Waldo is
best at!
> > The amount of Kosher certified food which reached the Kosher market
> > was the amount the manufacturers expected to be reached.
> >
> > > Keep in mind that this scant 1.5% of the US foods market was being
> chased by
> > > 9,850 foods processing plants producing some 75,000 Kosher Certified
> > > *packaged* products, (an average of 7.6 Kosher Certified products per
> plant)
> >
> > LOL!!!!!
> > Those 9,850 plants produced $165 billion dollars worth of food, all of
> > it purchased and consumed by consumers.
> No, those plants produced $165 billion worth of KOSHER foodstuffs, only
4.1%
> of which was purchased by anyone who gave a shit about Kosher, the other
> 95.1% was paid for by Gentiles who reap no benefit whatsoever from the
> implementation of Jewish religious superstitions.
But the plants who produced that Kosher food were producing for the entire
$165 billion dollar market.
You're attempt to suggest otherwise was just your usual pathetic
performance, Waldo old boy.
(snip)
>
> > > http://www.koshertoday.com/resourcecenter/charts/usfoodplants.htm
> > >
> > >
>
http://www.koshertoday.com/resourcecenter/charts/numberkoshercertproducts.ht
> > > m
> >
> > > As shown above, the RETAIL market for Kosher in 2002 was allegedly
$6.75
> > > billion. Subtract from this a conservative average retail mark-up of
30%
> and
> > > we're left with $4.72 billion.
> >
> > You're talking about the margin, not the markup.
> Ah, so you read Mr. Blank's post. If you read my response you'll see that
it
> didn't exactly help to bolster your case.
Since even your case has shown a substantial incremental profit , one which
you can't show is exceeded by certification costs, it's not my case that
needs bolstering.
In any even they are not the same thing and do not produce the same numbers.
The point is made to show how tenuous is your grasp of the industry and
business in general.
> > > Subtract from this a conservative transportation cost of 4% and we're
> left
> > > with $4.53 billion.
> >
> > Irrelevant. All food has a transporation cost.
> So it does, but what you fail to understand is that we are trying to
> approximate the total sales revenue for all packged Kosher goods sold in
> 2002 at the MANUFACTURER LEVEL, and as the recipients are generally
> responsible for transportation costs (and thus would be part of their base
> for cost of goods sold), these must generally be subtracted to arrive at
an
> approximation that has any semblence of accuracy.
Manufacturers are responsible for transportation whether the product is
Kosher or not. It is irrelevant to the discussion.
There are only two variables: any cost incurred by certification and any
incremental profits it generates. Transportation is not a cost of
certification.
This is but example of how ignorant you are about basic business matters.
You really don't a clue what you're talking about, do you!
I've got bad news for you Waldo. You not only got the term wrong when you
said "markup", you unknowningly computed the margin. That means, dear boy,
that the higher number is correct.
> > His
> > problem is he doesn't know the cost of certification,
> And are we to suppose that YOU DO, Philthy? If so, why are you keeping it
a
> secet from us???
Waldo admits he doesn't know a crucial piece of data in order for his
macroeconomic approach to make sense.
Kosher certification costs vary from manufacturer to manufacturer depending
on a great many variables known only to the certification agency and the
professional managers of the manufacturers.
I happen to know the certification costs of a number of companies. But they
serve no purpose for your analysis.
> > so he always
> > ends his dive from the high board with a belly flop.
> Well, we do know that there are over 200 Kash-R-Us agencies operating in
the
> US, and that just THREE of these employ over 1,000 Rabbis.
Notice how Waldo fails to tell us what percentage of the business these
three do!!
>We also know (as
> has been proven to you before) that implementing the demands placed on
> industry by these Rabbis is EXPENSIVE.
Since you've never offered a single figure for the cost of implementing
standards manufacturers take on voluntarily, your claim is obviously a lie.
> A few examples from a previous post
> on the subject: (This is long, but frankly Philip, you are one
thick-headed
> dolt)
You've posted this a number of times, and I responded. At that point you
disappear.
No one made any such claim.
There was not a single mention of a cost in that passage, which was about
the care that needs to be taken in a particular plant manufacturing a
particular product.
This is what you are always forced into Waldo. I would have thought you'd
have improved your argument or die from the embarrassment!
> As noted in the above article, boilers and "steam kettles" are used
> extensively in the foods industries. The steam which circulates around
these
> steam kettles creates a major problem for superstitious Jews, who believe
> that the "flavor" of a non-kosher product can pass through **solid
stainless
> steel** and into a closed steam system, and then AGAIN through **solid
> stainless steel** and into Kosher products being heated by the same
boiler!
Oh, a "major" problem, huh!
> Need more? Try inedibles:
LOL!
More what, discussions of manufacturing issues which offer no evidence for
the cost of Kosher manufacturing?
NOTE: There is no information about any costs of Kosher manufacturing in
that passage.
>
>
> What about "contaminated" equipment???
>
>
> __________________________________
>
>
http://www.koshertodayonline.com/kosher%20today%20archives/2001/0201/TECHNOL
> OGY%20RAISES%20MANY%20QUESTIONS.htm
>
> " Another concern that we have in the kosher industry is EQUIPMENT
> CONTAMINATION. A company may produce a kosher product and the formula
> presented to the certifying agency listing all of the ingredients. While
the
> components may be good, the question is about the equipment? Is the
> equipment used by the company utilized interchangeably? In other words, do
> they produce KOSHER and NON-KOSHER in the same tank? If so, how is it
> KOSHERIZED from one product to the other? Is it being MONITORED? Are any
of
> the products marinated for OVER 24 HOURS in any given piece of equipment?
> These are questions that companies have to be aware of, that will be asked
> by the supervising agency. . . .
>
> " . . . .There is also a problem with shipping bulk liquids. The tank
cars.
> The trucks. What did they carry before they were loaded with the kosher
> product? . . . "
Again, no costs associated with the section, which again concerns itself
careful inspection.
All of this would be done by the Kosher certification agency before offering
an estimate of the cost.
> There are several companies that specialize in performing the highly
> specialized cleaning that the Kash-R-Us agencies demand tanker trucks
> undergo before they are allowed to carry Kosher products. (see "Acetone"
> above) A tanker that had just delivered a load of premium grade olive oil
> would be forced to undergo a Kash-R-Us cleaning before it could haul
> "Kosher" olive oil.
Tanker trucks are cleaned regularly. The fact that we are talking about a
special cleaning process does not mean it is more expensive than standard
cleaning processes.
No costs of Kosher manufacturing in this passage.
> Then there is Passover. Did you ever notice that Coca Coal tastes
different
> if purchased in certain areas of the country (ie, New York) around the
time
> of Passover? Do you know why? Coke is normally sweetened with corn
> sweetners, but these are FORBIDDED to Jews during Passover, and so, during
> this time, Coke switches to CANE SUGAR, to please the Jews.
> That is just ONE of the many insanities that companies must undergo at
> Passover:
There is nothing insane about it, and Coca Cola knows what they are doing.
No costs associated with this passage.
> Here are some others:
(snip Passover and irrelevant foodservice discussion)
> So Philthy, considering the above, (and remember, we're talking about
9,850
> plants producing some 75,000 products) what do you think happens to the
$418
> million in "profits' allegedly gained by sales to the Kosher Konsumers?
Considering what above!
You were unable to quantify, or even demonstrate an increased cost in any of
the passages you cited.
You must think people think with their spleen just because you do.
Needless to say, Waldo has once again shown that he has no data on the cost
of Kosher certification, so when he claims it's expensive, or exceeds the
benefits earned, he's talking nonsense.
> > > How much (gross) "profit" did the average foods plant producing Kosher
> > > goodies realize from Kosher sales? $453 million / 9,850 plants =
> $45,989.00
> > > per plant (This is not enough to pay the salary of ONE union employee
> for
> > > one year)
> > This is "Waldo filler"! It adds nothing to the discussion or analysis.
> Considering the above (which you'll undoubtedly SNIP in your reply, hoping
> that no one notices) I'm afraid it shows very clearly that for most
> companies, Kosher is a LOSER.
Utterly irrelevant. The only relevant data is incremental cost and
incremental profit from everything produced in those plants.
> > > How much (gross) "profit" did the average packaged Kosher Certified
> > > _product_ realize from Kosher sales? $453 million / 75,000 products =
> $6,040
> > > per Kosher Certified product. (This wouldn't cover the cost of ONE
batch
> of
> > > product lost doe to some obscure Kosher violation in most plants)
> >
> > Batches of product can be lost under any type of quality assurance
> > program.
> Kosher has NOTHING to do with "quality assurance".
No, Kosher manufacturing is used by many companies as the core of their QA
efforts. Bad batches occur under all manner of manufacturing scenarios.
Kosher certification doesn't cause such occurrences.
(snip)
> > This is yet another meaningless measure meant to obscure the fact that
> > Waldo can't complete the play even using his own analysis. He can't
> > show that Kosher certification costs more than the incremental profit
> How can one tell whether a given bridge will support a particular truck
> without damaging the structure of the bridge when one does not know the
> precise weight of the truck? We can begin by discovering the maximum
amount
> of weight that the bridge can safely bear, and we can begin looking at the
> load that the truck is transporting, compare similar trucks, etc. and get
a
> damn good idea.
But you don't have a similar cost for comparison.
In fact, you've got no costs at all.
(snip)
> Kosher is a disaster - an ethnocentric drain on the economy.
LOL! And you are a drain on humanity's IQ!
> > > Pathetic, isn't it?
> >
> > Yup, next you'll be breaking it down by the number of consumers who
> > purchase it.
> >
> > > Now, start subtracting the COSTS of Kosher:
> >
> > Watch how he addresses this!!!!
> > >Exactly what are the costs of
> > > obtaining, maintaining and implementing Kosher Certification - well,
> there's
> > > a puzzler for you.
> >
> > In other words, Waldo doesn't know.
> Neither does Philip - and he wouldn't know ANYTHING about the subject if I
> and others in this forum hadn't taught him - not that he's been a willing
> student.
What a ridiculous lie. I exposed your ignorance on this subject the very
first time you had the temerity to post it, before anyone you are now
discussing it with was involved.
The cost of Kosher certification is different for every manufacturer. I know
far more about these costs than you, but I would never be stupid enough to
attempt an analysis when I didn't possess one of the key variables necessary
for that analysis.
> > >It will vary on a case-by case basis, but you can be sure
> > > that it will include paying a Kash-R-Us agency to come in and inspect
> your
> > > plant, your equipment, your processes, your recopies, ingredients and
> > > preparation methods, your books, your suppliers, etc. (in other words,
> > > you're opening the door to industrial espionage).
> >
> > ROTFL!!
> >
> > He can't produce a number,
> Why don't YOU produce a number for us, Philthy?
Everybody together now......!
The costs of Kosher certification is different for every manufacturer.
> > so now we're supposed to worry about
> > "espionage".
> >
> > > In many cases, you'll be required to buy new equipment,
> > Waldo doesn't have a clue how many cases would require this, but he
> > hopes using the word "many" will sound like a lot.
> Read above. For starters, virtually ANY plant that wishes to produce goods
> that are Kosher for Passover would have to buy new equipment.
Waldo has no clue how many would have to buy new equipment. And if the
manufacturer did have to buy new equipment, he would know that when making a
decision on Kosher certification.
> > >run an extra shift
> > > of personnel,
> > Waldo hasn't a clue how often this happens.
> > >build a new production line, or possibly even a new production
> > > plant.
> > More variables Waldo would like you to believe are common, but about
> > which he has no statistics.
> > > Many man-hours will need to be devoted to transitioning to Kosher and
> > > staying that way.
> > Waldo doesn't know how often additional man-hours will be required, or
> > how many.
> > >Oftentimes the Kash-R-Us agency will require that one of
> > > their flunkies be kept on site during all production - and he'll need
a
> > > company employee as an envoy to see that his demands are carried out,
as
> he
> > > won't be getting his hands dirty.
> > Oftentimes? See how less precise Waldo is now than when he was
> > before?
> As opposed to you, Philip. You are consistent only in your act of squirm,
> squeal, dodge and subterfuge.
Says the man who can't tell us how much Kosher certification costs, but
knows it's more than the benefits.
I'd say Waldo has one again demonstrated that he's better at hating Jews
than he is making an argument.
--
Philip Mathews
"Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labor; but even supposing
knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be content to be
ignorant than would take even a little trouble to acquire it."
Samuel Johnson
Waldo
I'm glad you agree. But tell us, why do you offhandedly dismiss the
information below?
What? Is 1.55 too high? Too low? Which? Why?
Are you saying that retailers consistently mark up Kosher goodies at a
different rate than they mark up non-Kosher products? If so, can you show
that your claim is supported by evidence?
And what's this bit about 'apples and oranges'? Kosher goodies cover almost
EXACTLY the same range of foods merchandise as do non-Kosher products - from
applesauce to canned asparagus, from foil to flatware, from salt to spices,
from cookies to crackers, from baby foods to bottled water.
'Apples and oranges', Brian? I think you know that I'm right, and are just
resorting to lame excuses.
> >Now, assuming that the average retail mark up was cost x 1.55, we find
that
> >the MARGIN was not 30 %, but roughly 35.4%.
>
> Sigh, my point was that you did not know the basics, i.e the
> difference between margin and mark-up.
Ok, so you were nit-picking. But I did make an error, and I thank you for
pointing it out - even if your manner of doing so was somewhat rude. After
all, accuracy is important.
> >So, this takes my previously generous figure of $4.72 billion (cost of
goods
> >@ retail) and *reduces* it by +- $360 million to $4.36 billion ($4.36 x
1.55
> >(mark up) = $6.758 - 35.4% (margin) = $4.365 (retailer costs).
>
> So?
So that's $360 million *fewer* dollars that companies have left to pay for
ALL of the costs associated with Kosher and still have money left over for
'profit'.
> >Unfortunately, your nit-picking has only served to further darken the
> >already gloomy prospects of profitability in the Kosher industry, hasn't
it?
>
> No, not at all. You see, the cost of certification is borne by the
> manufacturer and subsequently becomes part of the cost of the product.
Well thank you, Mr. Blank. (Diogenes, call your office!)
> Now it seems to me that you should be bitching about the incredibly
> large profit margins of the retailers because that obviously increases
> your expense in buying from them.
Yes, quite a shame, really. But that's a different subject, isn't it?
> >In the interest of accuracy, let's re-work the figures with the wonderful
> >information that you have brought to our attention, shall we? I'll
re-post
> >my calculations with the corrected retail mark-up being 1.55 (a 35.4%
> >margin), which brings the down the cost of goods sold @ retail from $4.72
> >billion to $4.36 billion.
>
> And?
And work toward painting a more accurate picture of the blessings (or
curses) that the Kosher industry brings to the US foods market, of course!
> ><Begin re-post with adjusted figures - Thanks Brian>
> >_____________________________
> >
> >[starting with $4.36 billion]
> >
> >Subtract from this a conservative transportation cost of 4% and we're
left
> >with $4.18 billion. This is a generously high approximation of the sales
> >receipts that all MANUFACTURERS of Kosher certified products received for
> >goods that were allegedly bought *because they were KOSHER* in 2002.
> >
> >With me so far? Good.
>
> Wrong again. Cost of transportation is part of the manufacturing cost.
On which planet? In the VAST majority of cases, the cost of shipping the
goods from the manufacturing plant to the wholesaler's or retailer's
warehouse or store is born by the RECIPIENT, and in ALL cases where the
goods are moved from a retailer's warehouse to the retail store, the
transportation costs are born by the retailer.
In rare cases a manufacturer might offer "free shipping" to their customers
as an incentive, in which case the expense would show up on the
manufacturers, books, but there is no such thing as "free shipping", trucks,
drivers, fuel, insurance and taxes cost MONEY, and as with Kosher costs, the
end consumer will inevitably pay the price.
Now, if you were trying to say that the transportation cost is counted by
the retailer as part of the 'cost of goods sold', the base from which he
makes his mark up, you might be correct, and you'll notice that I pointed to
this fact further down, and even said that this cost could be disallowed.
However, in no wise can it be said that the "cost of transportation is part
of the manufacturing cost" (unless you're referring to the inbound freight
costs of raw materials) .
> Just like packaging, advertising, fixed overheads. You can't just
> subtract them.
But I *didn't* subtract packaging, advertising, or fixed overheads, did I
Brian?
> >Foods manufacturers generally work on a very slim profit margin -
usually
> >about 10%. So after costs of goods sold, packaging, labor, overhead, etc,
a
> >company that does $10 million in gross sales will be left with about $1
> >million in "profits". So, of the appx $4.18 billion in gross sales of
goods
> >allegedly purchased *because* they were Kosher, only about $418 million
> >could be counted as gross profits - (I say *gross* profits because, from
> >these "profits" *must* be deducted each and every penny that was spent by
> >each and every manufacturer, their suppliers, their suppliers, and
*their*
> >suppliers on obtaining, maintaining and *implementing* Kosher
> >certification - including paying off the Kash-R-Us agencies)
>
> Absolutely and including the cost of toilet paper in the executive
> washrooms.
No, the cost of toilet paper in the executive washrooms would not be counted
as a Kosher related expense - unless the company appointed an executive to
act as a chief liason between the corporation and the Kash-R-Us agency -
then you could count HIS toilet paper, office, secretary, etc. as part of
the cost of 'going Kosher'. And don't kid yourself, many, if not most of the
larger plants have personnel who are specifically assigned to work under the
Rabbi(s).
> Do you have a point?
Yes. On the whole, Kosher is a siphon on the US economy: A clever scheme to
get the Gentiles to pay for the expensive eating habits of superstitious
Jews, and give a pack of indolent rabbis a "nice living". O:-)>
> >
> >How much (gross) "profit" did the average foods plant producing Kosher
> >goodies realize from Kosher sales? $418 million / 9,850 plants =
$42,436.50
> >per plant (This is not enough to pay the salary of ONE union employee for
> >one year)
>
> Wrong, the 10% is a net figure (you deducted overheads in your
> paragraph above), so taking your figures, i.e. including overheads, it
> the figure is profit for the stockholders.
Sure, 10% is the net profit for all combined operations, but, on average,
95.9% of all revenue derived from sales of Kosher Certified goods comes from
people who would have purchased the goods anyway, so ALL costs associated
with Kosher *must* be deducted from the 4.1% of sales that was actually
purchased *because it was* Kosher.
IOW, a company lumping their Kosher Kosts into their general expenses would
be a BIG mistake - that is unless they don't give a damn whether their
Kosher program pulls its own weight.
Example: A typical plant produces tortilla chips, salsas and dips. The plant
has an annual sales revenue of $10 million, 50% of which comes from Kosher
Certified products, and 50% which comes from non-Kosher products.
This typical plant has a typical net profit of 10%, or one million dollars.
Every penny of the profit derived from the non-Kosher certified products
($500,000.00) was generated by sales to Gentile consumers who couldn't care
less whether the product was Kosher. Of the other 50% of the profit (the
$500,000.00 generated from the sales of Kosher Certified goods), $479,500.00
(or 95.9%) ALSO came from Gentile consumers who couldn't care less whether
the product was Kosher.
Now, one might assume that the remaining $20,500.00 (or 4.1% came from sales
to consumers who bought the goods *specifically* because they *were* kosher.
But, from this $20,500.00 must be deducted EVERY PENNY that was spent by the
plant to obtain, maintain, and implement Kosher Certification, including any
extra equipment or utensils needed, special cleanings of equipment, downtime
(as is often required by Jewish superstition) extra personnel or extra
hours, any additional expenditures to acquire Kosher Certified ingredients,
any product that had to be discarded as a result of "Kosher violation", etc.
Oh, and don't forget the fees to the Kash-R-Us agency.
This gives the company $394.23 per week to budget their Kosher program. One
cent over this amount and Kosher is a net LOSS.
Of course, to calculate the above more accurately one would deduct all
Kosher expenses as a *separate* entry *before* the net profits of the
company were calculated, but WTF, in this venue it isn't worth the effort.
*That*, Mr. Blank, is why I refer to that portion of profits derived from
sales to Kosher Consumers as "Gross profits"
As for me personally, the small profit that *might* be gained from the
Kosher sales wouldn't be worth the extra hassle, not to mention having
strangers poking their noses into my plant, recipes, processes and books.
> Now tell me, why won't you,
> as I have suggested before, buy some stock in (one of) the companies
> involved and bitch to them? Unless you have some stake in the matter,
> nobody cares about your whining and moaning.
There are better and much more effective ways of approaching this
situation - and no, I'm not talking about this forum.
> If on the other hand you are claiming that the cost of Kosher
> certification rises prices to you at the consumer level, why don't you
> complain to the retailers about the extremely large margins they are
> working on?
But that's another topic altogether, isn't it?
As I said, there are better approaches to be made.
> Let's see, your complaints are that Kosher certification does what
> exactly?
>
> Rise the consumer price? Buy shares in a food company and complain.
> Reduce the profits of the food manufacturer? Buy shares in that
> company and complain.
>
> Why do you post your complaints here? Is it simply because you feel
> you have no other recourse or is it because you hate Jews?
Actually, I find that the discourse surrounding this particular subject can
be both entertaining and educational - both for myself and for the other
participants, and where else am I going to find such an excellent selection
of zealots that will work every angle, and spring every excuse they can
dream up in their efforts to defend and justify the Kosher Racket?
> Tell me, if you buy a new car and it breaks down, do you take it back
> to where you bought it and get them to repair it, or do you simply
> post to alt.honda or whatever?
Certainly the former, possibly the latter, and if I feel that I and my
fellow consumers are REALLY getting screwed by Honda (or whatever), I may
take it to a level that is SURE to get their attention. I've done it
before - and to bigger companies than Honda.
> I'm really interested, I'm trying to get a handle on why you take such
> a cowardly approach to your complaints. If you consider them to be
> really justified, why don't you do something about it? Is there a
> large streak of yellow running down your back?
Because of its entanglement with Jews, and with the diseases of
'Multiculturalism' and 'Political Correctness' running amok, Kosher is a
very delicate subject, and must be approached very carefully. Obviously,
anyone who would DARE mention the subject in anything other than a
flattering way will immediately attacked as an "anti-Semite', a 'bigot', a
'Nazi', and any other emotion evoking epithet the ADL and company can dream
up.
But I'm glad to see that you're interested, Brian. I'm also happy to see
that you are (at least you appear to be) willing to listen to reason, and
are not letting your prejudices completely blind you on this subject, as are
so many of the others that participate in this forum.
Brian Blank
wrote:
That was a quote from the article. If you had read it, you would have
noticed that it was talking about a lot of different types of
products, both food and non-food. The margins (and mark-ups) are
therefore different according to the type of product. As the article
was written from the viewpoint of total store margin it took an
average. Look at the tables.
>
>
>> >Now, assuming that the average retail mark up was cost x 1.55, we find
>that
>> >the MARGIN was not 30 %, but roughly 35.4%.
>>
>> Sigh, my point was that you did not know the basics, i.e the
>> difference between margin and mark-up.
>
>
>Ok, so you were nit-picking. But I did make an error, and I thank you for
>pointing it out - even if your manner of doing so was somewhat rude. After
>all, accuracy is important.
I was rude? Compared to you and your claims about Jews, Kashrus etc.?
>
>
>> >So, this takes my previously generous figure of $4.72 billion (cost of
>goods
>> >@ retail) and *reduces* it by +- $360 million to $4.36 billion ($4.36 x
>1.55
>> >(mark up) = $6.758 - 35.4% (margin) = $4.365 (retailer costs).
>>
>> So?
>
>
>So that's $360 million *fewer* dollars that companies have left to pay for
>ALL of the costs associated with Kosher and still have money left over for
>'profit'.
And the costs associated with Kosher are?
>
>
>> >Unfortunately, your nit-picking has only served to further darken the
>> >already gloomy prospects of profitability in the Kosher industry, hasn't
>it?
>>
>> No, not at all. You see, the cost of certification is borne by the
>> manufacturer and subsequently becomes part of the cost of the product.
>
>
>Well thank you, Mr. Blank. (Diogenes, call your office!)
It's a pleasure. Sorry that I had to dumb it down for you.
>
>
>> Now it seems to me that you should be bitching about the incredibly
>> large profit margins of the retailers because that obviously increases
>> your expense in buying from them.
>
>
>Yes, quite a shame, really. But that's a different subject, isn't it?
No. Your claim is that Kashrus increases the cost to the consumer.
>
>
>> >In the interest of accuracy, let's re-work the figures with the wonderful
>> >information that you have brought to our attention, shall we? I'll
>re-post
>> >my calculations with the corrected retail mark-up being 1.55 (a 35.4%
>> >margin), which brings the down the cost of goods sold @ retail from $4.72
>> >billion to $4.36 billion.
>>
>> And?
>
>
>And work toward painting a more accurate picture of the blessings (or
>curses) that the Kosher industry brings to the US foods market, of course!
So you don't have any figures then?
>
>
>> ><Begin re-post with adjusted figures - Thanks Brian>
>> >_____________________________
>> >
>> >[starting with $4.36 billion]
>> >
>> >Subtract from this a conservative transportation cost of 4% and we're
>left
>> >with $4.18 billion. This is a generously high approximation of the sales
>> >receipts that all MANUFACTURERS of Kosher certified products received for
>> >goods that were allegedly bought *because they were KOSHER* in 2002.
>> >
>> >With me so far? Good.
>>
>> Wrong again. Cost of transportation is part of the manufacturing cost.
>
>
>On which planet? In the VAST majority of cases, the cost of shipping the
>goods from the manufacturing plant to the wholesaler's or retailer's
>warehouse or store is born by the RECIPIENT, and in ALL cases where the
>goods are moved from a retailer's warehouse to the retail store, the
>transportation costs are born by the retailer.
So you are subtracting from the invoiced price a charge that is over
and above the invoice price? Interesting.
>
>In rare cases a manufacturer might offer "free shipping" to their customers
>as an incentive, in which case the expense would show up on the
>manufacturers, books, but there is no such thing as "free shipping", trucks,
>drivers, fuel, insurance and taxes cost MONEY, and as with Kosher costs, the
>end consumer will inevitably pay the price.
Of course they would. Is that a problem? Just as the cost of farming
vegetables and transporting them to a processor is ultimately passed
on the consumer.
>
>Now, if you were trying to say that the transportation cost is counted by
>the retailer as part of the 'cost of goods sold', the base from which he
>makes his mark up, you might be correct, and you'll notice that I pointed to
>this fact further down, and even said that this cost could be disallowed.
>However, in no wise can it be said that the "cost of transportation is part
>of the manufacturing cost" (unless you're referring to the inbound freight
>costs of raw materials) .
Many companies do provide "free" shipping. It might be to a central
warehouse and then re-shipped from there. Admittedly it is not a
given.
>
>> Just like packaging, advertising, fixed overheads. You can't just
>> subtract them.
>
>
>But I *didn't* subtract packaging, advertising, or fixed overheads, did I
>Brian?
I didn't say you did.
>
>
>> >Foods manufacturers generally work on a very slim profit margin -
>usually
>> >about 10%. So after costs of goods sold, packaging, labor, overhead, etc,
>a
>> >company that does $10 million in gross sales will be left with about $1
>> >million in "profits". So, of the appx $4.18 billion in gross sales of
>goods
>> >allegedly purchased *because* they were Kosher, only about $418 million
>> >could be counted as gross profits - (I say *gross* profits because, from
>> >these "profits" *must* be deducted each and every penny that was spent by
>> >each and every manufacturer, their suppliers, their suppliers, and
>*their*
>> >suppliers on obtaining, maintaining and *implementing* Kosher
>> >certification - including paying off the Kash-R-Us agencies)
>>
>> Absolutely and including the cost of toilet paper in the executive
>> washrooms.
>
>No, the cost of toilet paper in the executive washrooms would not be counted
>as a Kosher related expense - unless the company appointed an executive to
>act as a chief liason between the corporation and the Kash-R-Us agency -
>then you could count HIS toilet paper, office, secretary, etc. as part of
>the cost of 'going Kosher'. And don't kid yourself, many, if not most of the
>larger plants have personnel who are specifically assigned to work under the
>Rabbi(s).
So, you are able to absolutely separate the costs of Kosher
certification? Yet you seem unable to produce the figures. Why is
that?
>
>> Do you have a point?
>
>
>Yes. On the whole, Kosher is a siphon on the US economy: A clever scheme to
>get the Gentiles to pay for the expensive eating habits of superstitious
>Jews, and give a pack of indolent rabbis a "nice living". O:-)>
Let me see, you called me "rude" above...
And yet you are unable to come up with any figures. In fact all you
have shown is that the profits made by the retail establishments are a
huge drain on the economies of those who shop there.
>
>
>> >
>> >How much (gross) "profit" did the average foods plant producing Kosher
>> >goodies realize from Kosher sales? $418 million / 9,850 plants =
>$42,436.50
>> >per plant (This is not enough to pay the salary of ONE union employee for
>> >one year)
>>
>> Wrong, the 10% is a net figure (you deducted overheads in your
>> paragraph above), so taking your figures, i.e. including overheads, it
>> the figure is profit for the stockholders.
>
>
>Sure, 10% is the net profit for all combined operations, but, on average,
>95.9% of all revenue derived from sales of Kosher Certified goods comes from
>people who would have purchased the goods anyway, so ALL costs associated
>with Kosher *must* be deducted from the 4.1% of sales that was actually
>purchased *because it was* Kosher.
So? Are you saying that the 10% is reduced because of Kosher
certification? Or are you saying that the costs are increased by XX
because of certification? Are you saying that sales increased by 4.1%
or what? You see, without figures, you can make these bland assertions
and they are meaningless.
>
>IOW, a company lumping their Kosher Kosts into their general expenses would
>be a BIG mistake - that is unless they don't give a damn whether their
>Kosher program pulls its own weight.
Why don't you ask them?
>
>Example: A typical plant produces tortilla chips, salsas and dips. The plant
>has an annual sales revenue of $10 million, 50% of which comes from Kosher
>Certified products, and 50% which comes from non-Kosher products.
OK.
>
>This typical plant has a typical net profit of 10%, or one million dollars.
>Every penny of the profit derived from the non-Kosher certified products
>($500,000.00) was generated by sales to Gentile consumers who couldn't care
>less whether the product was Kosher. Of the other 50% of the profit (the
>$500,000.00 generated from the sales of Kosher Certified goods), $479,500.00
>(or 95.9%) ALSO came from Gentile consumers who couldn't care less whether
>the product was Kosher.
Net profit. OK.
>
>Now, one might assume that the remaining $20,500.00 (or 4.1% came from sales
>to consumers who bought the goods *specifically* because they *were* kosher.
Possibly, I don't buy tortilla chips, salsas and dips.
>
>But, from this $20,500.00 must be deducted EVERY PENNY that was spent by the
>plant to obtain, maintain, and implement Kosher Certification, including any
>extra equipment or utensils needed, special cleanings of equipment, downtime
>(as is often required by Jewish superstition) extra personnel or extra
>hours, any additional expenditures to acquire Kosher Certified ingredients,
>any product that had to be discarded as a result of "Kosher violation", etc.
>Oh, and don't forget the fees to the Kash-R-Us agency.
You said net profit above. Ergo it is already subtracted.
>
>This gives the company $394.23 per week to budget their Kosher program. One
>cent over this amount and Kosher is a net LOSS.
You do understand the difference between net and gross?
>
>Of course, to calculate the above more accurately one would deduct all
>Kosher expenses as a *separate* entry *before* the net profits of the
>company were calculated, but WTF, in this venue it isn't worth the effort.
>*That*, Mr. Blank, is why I refer to that portion of profits derived from
>sales to Kosher Consumers as "Gross profits"
It doesn't matter what YOU refer to it as. If the plant is making 10%
net, they are making 10% after all expenses, no matter what they are,
including <grin> the expense of providing toilet paper in the
executive washroom.
>
>As for me personally, the small profit that *might* be gained from the
>Kosher sales wouldn't be worth the extra hassle, not to mention having
>strangers poking their noses into my plant, recipes, processes and books.
So, for you personally. If you decide to make tortillas, salsas and
dips, don't go for the Kosher certification.
>
>> Now tell me, why won't you,
>> as I have suggested before, buy some stock in (one of) the companies
>> involved and bitch to them? Unless you have some stake in the matter,
>> nobody cares about your whining and moaning.
>
>
>There are better and much more effective ways of approaching this
>situation - and no, I'm not talking about this forum.
Well, we all know that this forum only consists of a few people, maybe
peaking at 20 or so.
So you have better and much more effective ways of approaching this
situation? Why haven't you done so?
>
>
>> If on the other hand you are claiming that the cost of Kosher
>> certification rises prices to you at the consumer level, why don't you
>> complain to the retailers about the extremely large margins they are
>> working on?
>
>
>But that's another topic altogether, isn't it?
No. Are you concerned about the prices you pay due to expenses
incurred, or do you simply want to bitch and moan about Kashrus
because "it's Jewish".
If, as I suspect, it's the latter, then we have your agenda. If it is
the former, I apologize and ask why don't you complain to the
retailers about their extremely large margins?
I note that you fail to answer the question. But I appreciate your
wish to be educated.
By the way, who are these zealots?
>
>
>> Tell me, if you buy a new car and it breaks down, do you take it back
>> to where you bought it and get them to repair it, or do you simply
>> post to alt.honda or whatever?
>
>
>Certainly the former, possibly the latter, and if I feel that I and my
>fellow consumers are REALLY getting screwed by Honda (or whatever), I may
>take it to a level that is SURE to get their attention. I've done it
>before - and to bigger companies than Honda.
Good, that's what I would do. So why don't you do that with the food
companies? Do they have something on you?
>
>
>> I'm really interested, I'm trying to get a handle on why you take such
>> a cowardly approach to your complaints. If you consider them to be
>> really justified, why don't you do something about it? Is there a
>> large streak of yellow running down your back?
>
>
>Because of its entanglement with Jews, and with the diseases of
>'Multiculturalism' and 'Political Correctness' running amok, Kosher is a
>very delicate subject, and must be approached very carefully. Obviously,
>anyone who would DARE mention the subject in anything other than a
>flattering way will immediately attacked as an "anti-Semite', a 'bigot', a
>'Nazi', and any other emotion evoking epithet the ADL and company can dream
>up.
Bull-crap. If you had shares in any of the companies, as a share
holder you are entitled to ask questions regarding their costs or the
drain on YOUR profit by Kosher certification.
>
>But I'm glad to see that you're interested, Brian. I'm also happy to see
>that you are (at least you appear to be) willing to listen to reason, and
>are not letting your prejudices completely blind you on this subject, as are
>so many of the others that participate in this forum.
I don't have any prejudices. I simply try to look at things logically.
It seems to me that you are not doing so, and I can't imagine why. I
come from a background where we kept Kosher. I've spent time in the
supermarkets reading ingredients and find it a lot simpler to simply
look for a Kosher symbol. Until you are able to prove that the cost of
putting that symbol on the goods increases the price in such a way
that the non-Kosher consumer is unaware that the cost is increased,
then you are simply tilting at windmills.
If you truly believed this to be the case, or that companies' profits
are diluted by Kashrus, then you have to come up with evidence.
Everything that you have posted has been supposition.
Regards,
Brian Blank
sailor57
I see you are babysitting again. Need a few extra pounds to tide you
over?
You could also float a loan from Chicago Mob, Inc.(We collect with a
baseball bat if you're late)Tony Accardo used to do that-his nickname
was "Joe Batters".
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
<nota...@earthlink.spamblocker.net> wrote:
(circumcised)
>I was rude? Compared to you and your claims about Jews, Kashrus etc.?
All jews are rude, Blankovsky. It's genetic in nature. You simply
can't help it.
Steve Dufour
> clue as to what "Kosher" really means!)
I think many people respect Jewish culture without much understanding
of it. This might be something you just have to live with.
CaracatusPotts
"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" <reni...@anglicam.org> wrote in message
news:3efacbdd...@news.onetel.net.uk...
Shoo Troll... fly away! Be gone.. Shooo
Susan Cohen
"Steve Dufour" <stevej...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:744cc401.03062...@posting.google.com...
As long as he stops telling lies like the above, I don't care what he lives
with.
Susan
sailor57
What about converts to Judaism, dinglebrain?
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
wrote:
Converts to jewdism take courses in obnoxiousness, B'runo. Unless
they pass the course they don't get their kosher certification.
Look at Suzy Cohen - a convert but every bit as obnoxious as a real
jew. Probably worse, in fact.
--
"I am Lord Rothschild. I do not eat pork. Bring
me a ham sandwich."
- Victor, 3rd Baron Rothschild
BIGDOG
"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" <reni...@anglicam.org> wrote in message
news:3efd12e9...@news.tiscali.co.uk...
L Alpert
"BIGDOG" <blue_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bdjjc...@enews1.newsguy.com...
> Apparently the local community college offers racist prick courses too.
Razovic's major.
sailor57
Don't you mean crawl away?
sailor57
> "BIGDOG" <blue_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:bdjjc...@enews1.newsguy.com...
> > Apparently the local community college offers racist prick courses too.
>
> Razovic's major.
I have my doubts about Smythey going to college. If he actually went
to one, he might actually learn something by contact with other
students or just browsing in the bookstore which would make him think
or reduce his ignorance. His remark about Susan Cohen betrays more
ignorance, since not all Jews keep Kosher.The Orthodox do and some
Conservatives do, but Reform Jews generally don't.
L Alpert
"sailor57" <sailor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aca9dd48.03062...@posting.google.com...
> "L Alpert" <alpertl@xx_attbi.com> wrote in message
news:<SriLa.40633$Bg.27527@rwcrnsc54>...
> > "BIGDOG" <blue_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:bdjjc...@enews1.newsguy.com...
> > > Apparently the local community college offers racist prick courses
too.
> >
> > Razovic's major.
>
>
> I have my doubts about Smythey going to college. If he actually went
> to one, he might actually learn something by contact with other
> students or just browsing in the bookstore which would make him think
> or reduce his ignorance. His remark about Susan Cohen betrays more
> ignorance, since not all Jews keep Kosher.The Orthodox do and some
> Conservatives do, but Reform Jews generally don't.
Well, kooky has many more problems than any 1 person could identify. It
seems Susan is an object of his obsession, as he responds to her more than
anyone else, even if they are his usual nonsense about her originations and
conversion. I suspsect he actually has deep rooting feeling for her and is
fearful of letting them be known.
He needs much more than college enrollment. Snooping around a book store
wouldn't do much good for him either. All he would do is patrol the
childrens section looking for victims.
sailor57
> On 26 Jun 2003 19:42:05 -0700, sailor...@yahoo.com (sailor57)
> wrote:
>
> >reni...@anglicam.org (The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe) wrote in message news:<3efacbdd...@news.onetel.net.uk>...
> >> On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:16:05 GMT, Brian Blank
> >> <nota...@earthlink.spamblocker.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> (circumcised)
> >>
> >> >I was rude? Compared to you and your claims about Jews, Kashrus etc.?
> >>
> >> All jews are rude, Blankovsky. It's genetic in nature. You simply
> >> can't help it.
> >
> >
> >What about converts to Judaism, dinglebrain?
>
> Converts to jewdism take courses in obnoxiousness, B'runo. Unless
> they pass the course they don't get their kosher certification.
> Look at Suzy Cohen - a convert but every bit as obnoxious as a real
> jew. Probably worse, in fact.
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
wrote:
Looks like you've found yourself another shabbos goy, B'runo.
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
wrote:
>
>"sailor57" <sailor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:aca9dd48.03062...@posting.google.com...
>> "L Alpert" <alpertl@xx_attbi.com> wrote in message
>news:<SriLa.40633$Bg.27527@rwcrnsc54>...
>> > "BIGDOG" <blue_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > news:bdjjc...@enews1.newsguy.com...
>> > > Apparently the local community college offers racist prick courses
>too.
>> >
>> > Razovic's major.
>>
>>
>> I have my doubts about Smythey going to college. If he actually went
>> to one, he might actually learn something by contact with other
>> students or just browsing in the bookstore which would make him think
>> or reduce his ignorance. His remark about Susan Cohen betrays more
>> ignorance, since not all Jews keep Kosher.The Orthodox do and some
>> Conservatives do, but Reform Jews generally don't.
>
>Well, kooky has many more problems than any 1 person could identify. It
>seems Susan is an object of his obsession, as he responds to her more than
>anyone else, even if they are his usual nonsense about her originations and
>conversion. I suspsect he actually has deep rooting feeling for her and is
>fearful of letting them be known.
>He needs much more than college enrollment. Snooping around a book store
>wouldn't do much good for him either. All he would do is patrol the
>childrens section looking for victims.
Are you trying to deny children their sexuality, Alpertzheimer? Are
you a (gasp) paedophobeŽ?
Susan Cohen
> to one, he might actually learn something by contact with other
> students or just browsing in the bookstore which would make him think
> or reduce his ignorance. His remark about Susan Cohen betrays more
> ignorance, since not all Jews keep Kosher.The Orthodox do and some
> Conservatives do, but Reform Jews generally don't.
Please! *All* his remarks about me, Jews, Judaism & just about everything
else he posts "betray more ignorance". He's shown himself to be
belligerently stupid - the worst kind of stupid.
Susan
Susan Cohen
> to one, he might actually learn something by contact with other
> students or just browsing in the bookstore which would make him think
> or reduce his ignorance. His remark about Susan Cohen betrays more
> ignorance, since not all Jews keep Kosher.The Orthodox do and some
> Conservatives do, but Reform Jews generally don't.
Please! *All* his remarks about me, Jews, Judaism & just about everything
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
wrote:
>Apparently the local community college offers racist prick courses too.
As indeed they should if they want people to embrace the glorious
mosaic of multicultural diversity.
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
wrote:
>"L Alpert" <alpertl@xx_attbi.com> wrote in message news:<SriLa.40633$Bg.27527@rwcrnsc54>...
>> "BIGDOG" <blue_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:bdjjc...@enews1.newsguy.com...
>> > Apparently the local community college offers racist prick courses too.
>>
>> Razovic's major.
>
>
>I have my doubts about Smythey going to college. If he actually went
>to one, he might actually learn something by contact with other
>students or just browsing in the bookstore which would make him think
>or reduce his ignorance. His remark about Susan Cohen betrays more
>ignorance, since not all Jews keep Kosher.The Orthodox do and some
>Conservatives do, but Reform Jews generally don't.
Oh, blow it out your fat jew ass, B'runo.
L Alpert
news:<SriLa.40633$Bg.27527@rwcrnsc54>...
> > "BIGDOG" <blue_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:bdjjc...@enews1.newsguy.com...
> > > Apparently the local community college offers racist prick courses
too.
> >
> > Razovic's major.
>
>
> I have my doubts about Smythey going to college. If he actually went
> to one, he might actually learn something by contact with other
> students or just browsing in the bookstore which would make him think
> or reduce his ignorance. His remark about Susan Cohen betrays more
> ignorance, since not all Jews keep Kosher.The Orthodox do and some
> Conservatives do, but Reform Jews generally don't.
Oh, BTW, he'll come back with a resounding "blow it out your fat jew ass"
now....
sailor57
> "sailor57" <sailor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:aca9dd48.03062...@posting.google.com...
> > "L Alpert" <alpertl@xx_attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:<SriLa.40633$Bg.27527@rwcrnsc54>...
> > > "BIGDOG" <blue_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bdjjc...@enews1.newsguy.com...
> > > > Apparently the local community college offers racist prick courses
> too.
> > >
> > > Razovic's major.
> >
> >
> > I have my doubts about Smythey going to college. If he actually went
> > to one, he might actually learn something by contact with other
> > students or just browsing in the bookstore which would make him think
> > or reduce his ignorance. His remark about Susan Cohen betrays more
> > ignorance, since not all Jews keep Kosher.The Orthodox do and some
> > Conservatives do, but Reform Jews generally don't.
>
> Oh, BTW, he'll come back with a resounding "blow it out your fat jew ass"
> now....
I've seen it before several times.It hasn't deterred me from speaking
my mind yet. I only get concerned when someone worthy of respect
denounces me.
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
>Suzy
Please! You dumb little boghopper. You still haven't realised you're
not jewish. And you have the (acquired) chutzpah to talk about
stupidity!
L Alpert
Just pointing out that he is so predictable......
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
wrote:
>
>"sailor57" <sailor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:aca9dd48.03062...@posting.google.com...
>> "L Alpert" <alpertl@xx_attbi.com> wrote in message
>news:<SriLa.40633$Bg.27527@rwcrnsc54>...
>> > "BIGDOG" <blue_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > news:bdjjc...@enews1.newsguy.com...
>> > > Apparently the local community college offers racist prick courses
>too.
>> >
>> > Razovic's major.
>>
>>
>> I have my doubts about Smythey going to college. If he actually went
>> to one, he might actually learn something by contact with other
>> students or just browsing in the bookstore which would make him think
>> or reduce his ignorance. His remark about Susan Cohen betrays more
>> ignorance, since not all Jews keep Kosher.The Orthodox do and some
>> Conservatives do, but Reform Jews generally don't.
>
>Oh, BTW, he'll come back with a resounding "blow it out your fat jew ass"
>now....
Once again, your ability to predict what has already happened is
simply uncanny.
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
wrote:
>"L Alpert" <alpertl@xx_attbi.com> wrote in message news:<krKLa.54028$Bg.32891@rwcrnsc54>...
>> "sailor57" <sailor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:aca9dd48.03062...@posting.google.com...
>> > "L Alpert" <alpertl@xx_attbi.com> wrote in message
>> news:<SriLa.40633$Bg.27527@rwcrnsc54>...
>> > > "BIGDOG" <blue_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > > news:bdjjc...@enews1.newsguy.com...
>> > > > Apparently the local community college offers racist prick courses
>> too.
>> > >
>> > > Razovic's major.
>> >
>> >
>> > I have my doubts about Smythey going to college. If he actually went
>> > to one, he might actually learn something by contact with other
>> > students or just browsing in the bookstore which would make him think
>> > or reduce his ignorance. His remark about Susan Cohen betrays more
>> > ignorance, since not all Jews keep Kosher.The Orthodox do and some
>> > Conservatives do, but Reform Jews generally don't.
>>
>> Oh, BTW, he'll come back with a resounding "blow it out your fat jew ass"
>> now....
>
>I've seen it before several times.It hasn't deterred me from speaking
>my mind yet.
What alleged mind are you referring to, B'runo?
> I only get concerned when someone worthy of respect
>denounces me.
OK. You're an asshole. Get concerned.
sailor57
Simple minds are not capable of complex behavior.
>
>
L Alpert
Just pointing out that he is so predictable......
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > >
Jeßus
Jeßus
>test...
Nup... I just can't take to XNews, despite it being a powerful news
client. The UI doesn't suit me. I'll try it again in a decade, maybe,
if Usenet still exists then.