Alfredo Sauce
Crash
Crash
MOMPEAGRAM
"Crash" <crash...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:1122627814.3...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> what is Alfredo sauce? Dams says it dont exist.. fact or fiction?
>
> Crash
>
http://pasta.allrecipes.com/recipes/print_fullpage_scale.asp?nprid=12065&servings=2&size=3
Alfredo Sauce
A satisfying sauce you can use on any type of pasta - dry
or fresh. Makes 2 servings.
Printed from Allrecipes, Submitted by B.Mason
--------------------------------------------------------------
3 tablespoons butter
8 fluid ounces heavy whipping cream
salt to taste
1 pinch ground nutmeg
1/4 cup grated Parmesan cheese
1/4 cup grated Romano cheese
1 egg yolk
2 tablespoons grated Parmesan cheese
Directions
1 Melt butter or margarine in a saucepan over medium
heat. Add heavy cream, stirring constantly. Stir in
salt,
nutmeg, grated Parmesan cheese, and grated Romano
cheese. Stir
constantly until melted, then mix in egg yolk. Simmer
over
medium low heat for 3 to 5 minutes. Garnish with
additional
grated Parmesan cheese, if desired.
Monsur Fromage du Pollet
> what is Alfredo sauce? Dams says it dont exist.. fact or fiction?
>
> Crash
>
>
Fact...The thing commonly called Alfredo Sauce is actually a Cream and
Butter Sauce.
--
It's not a question of where he grips it!
It's a simple question of weight ratios!
A five ounce bird could not carry a one pound coconut.
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
Galet
> Crash wrote on 29 Jul 2005 in rec.food.cooking
>
>
>>what is Alfredo sauce? Dams says it dont exist.. fact or fiction?
>>
>>Crash
>>
>>
>
>
> Fact...The thing commonly called Alfredo Sauce is actually a Cream and
> Butter Sauce.
>
True. And, to the best of my knowledge, "Alfredo Sauce" is nearly
unknown outside the US (e.g. no A.S. in Italy, very rare in the UK).
F
--
"One cannot think well, love well, sleep well, if one has not dined well."
(Virginia Woolf)
Bell Jar
"Galet" <Franco.Raim...@tin.it> wrote in message
news:42ea1...@newsgate.x-privat.org...
> Monsur Fromage du Pollet wrote:
>> Crash wrote on 29 Jul 2005 in rec.food.cooking
>>
>>
>>>what is Alfredo sauce? Dams says it dont exist.. fact or fiction?
>>>
>>>Crash
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Fact...The thing commonly called Alfredo Sauce is actually a Cream and
>> Butter Sauce.
>>
>
> True. And, to the best of my knowledge, "Alfredo Sauce" is nearly unknown
> outside the US (e.g. no A.S. in Italy, very rare in the UK).
>
> F
>
> --
I don't understand your point ... there are a lot of things that are not
eaten outside of the US (for the most part). That doesn't mean they don't
exist.
btw, I really don't care one way or the other about A.S. I always think this
argument is just silly.
Shaun aRe
"Bell Jar" <spam...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:FDoGe.482$eo1...@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
Didn't sound like an argument to me, just a little bit of possibly useful
and/or interesting trivia.
Shaun aRe
Andy
@newsgate.x-privat.org:
> Monsur Fromage du Pollet wrote:
>> Crash wrote on 29 Jul 2005 in rec.food.cooking
>>
>>
>>>what is Alfredo sauce? Dams says it dont exist.. fact or fiction?
>>>
>>>Crash
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Fact...The thing commonly called Alfredo Sauce is actually a Cream
and
>> Butter Sauce.
>>
>
> True. And, to the best of my knowledge, "Alfredo Sauce" is nearly
> unknown outside the US (e.g. no A.S. in Italy, very rare in the UK).
>
> F
Uhmmm...
http://www.e-rcps.com/pasta/rcp/p_abc/alfredo.shtml
Andy
Vilco
> True. And, to the best of my knowledge, "Alfredo Sauce"
> is nearly unknown outside the US (e.g. no A.S. in Italy,
> very rare in the UK).
Yes, here in Italy it is almost unknown.
But, wait, now I remember! I have recently seen a frozen
mono-dose box of "tagliatelle Alfredo" for microwave, in a local
supermarket.
Maybe they'll get famous also here.
--
Vilco
Think Pink , Drink Rose'
Vilco
> Uhmmm...
>
> http://www.e-rcps.com/pasta/rcp/p_abc/alfredo.shtml
LOL, he got more famous in the US than here in Italy.
Bell Jar
"Shaun aRe" <shau...@zenlunatics.co.uk> wrote in message
news:42ea2011$0$40057$892e...@authen.white.readfreenews.net...
argument is also a statment given in proof or rebuttal, that is the meaning
that was intended.
Galet
I knew the story of Mr di Lello etc. I know there is a restaurant in
Rome serving fettuccine Alfredo (but I've never been there). However,
I've never found "fettuccine Alfredo" in any Italian cooking book. Maybe
Alfredo moved to the US and there he was successful with his recipe.
Moreover, I'd say that 98% of Italian people ignore that such a dish
exists at all, 1% may have heard of that, and 1% know what it is.
That is to say: outside the US, if you ask someone what "fettucine
Alfredo" is, chances are that s/he will tell you "they don't exist".
But, in fact, they exist...
Felice Friese
"Crash" <crash...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:1122627814.3...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Crash
Ooh, that Damsel, she's trying to liven up the summer doldrums by stirring
up another "Alfredo Sauce" thread!
But she's right, Crash, there is no such animal as Alfredo SAUCE. Fettucini
Alfredo, or any pasta Alfredo, is simply pasta dressed with butter and
Parmesan cheese. No sauce, no cream, no eggs, no nothing else.
Leone's Italian Cookbook (1967) has a recipe with a preface by Gene Leone
referring to his "good friend Alfredo" of Alfredo's restaurant in Rome. The
recipe devotes an entire page to making the pasta and about two sentences
about placing it in a warm bowl and adding butter and cheese.
Let the wars begin.
Felice
Andy
g...@comcast.com:
> Let the wars begin.
>
> Felice
YES... a good ol' fashioned rfc food fight!!!
Fling...
... SPLAT
The Cook
>what is Alfredo sauce? Dams says it dont exist.. fact or fiction?
>
>Crash
Here is the link to the restaurant.
http://www.alfredo-roma.it/english/frame/storia.htm
--
Susan N.
"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral, 48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy."
Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974)
notbob
> recipe devotes an entire page to making the pasta and about two sentences
> about placing it in a warm bowl and adding butter and cheese.
>
> Let the wars begin.
Unless the pasta is bone dry, it contains some pasta water and this
mixed with melted butter and cheese qualifies it as a sauce just as much
as any starch-free reduction sauce ...at least in my mind.
nb
Felice Friese
"notbob" <not...@nothome.com> wrote in message
news:3d-dnbEsrc1...@comcast.com...
Dumping a (warm) bowl of fettuccine Alfredo atop Notbob's head, Felice says,
"This will stick to your head and not run down your neck. Ergo, it is not a
sauce."
:-)
notbob
> Dumping a (warm) bowl of fettuccine Alfredo atop Notbob's head, Felice says,
> "This will stick to your head and not run down your neck. Ergo, it is not a
> sauce."
Does that include trim? ;)
nb
Wayne Boatwright
Sort of like "Gravy Train" that makes it's own "gravy" when you add water?
Sorry, but it's not a sauce. It's merely dressed with butter and cheese.
--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________
Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974
LewZephyr
understand Andy <Q> :
Stop that wasting of good food... there are people starving around the
world that could eat it...
(note this is definitely tongue in cheek).
----------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magic."
- Arthur C. Clarke
sf
>
> http://www.e-rcps.com/pasta/rcp/p_abc/alfredo.shtml
>
>
I use a bit more cream and don't whip it. It's yummy stuff no matter
what you call it, though.
6 oz butter
1 1/2 C whipping cream
1 C Parmesean cheese, grated
salt and pepper to taste
sf
YUCK! Gimme Alfredo SAUCE.
Andy
4ax.com:
sf,
Here's a complete dinner recipe that takes fettuccine AND alfredo sauce
to delicious extremes.
http://www.here.vi/Recipes/vb15.htm
Andy
Max Hauser
something like this whose meaning has shifted recently or regionally, people
will rise zealously to defend the particular version they happen to know
about. (Whether of fettuccine "Alfredo" or the meaning of "French dressing"
or even the pronunciation of "patina.")
FAQ lists can be good for these things.
"Felice Friese" in news:uNudnXA_ncM...@comcast.com:
>
> ... Crash, there is no such animal as Alfredo SAUCE.
> Fettucini Alfredo, or any pasta Alfredo, is simply pasta
> dressed with butter and Parmesan cheese. No sauce,
> no cream, no eggs, no nothing else.
That's a very traditional meaning. Here (quoted on aforementioned HTTP
forum) is J. F. Mariani, something of an authority on history of
Italian-food adaptations in the US:
" fettuccine Alfredo. ... a staple of Italian-American restaurants since
the mid-1960s. It was created in Rome in 1920 by Alfredo de Lellio... The
original dish was made with a very rich triple butter di Lellio made
himself, three kinds of flour, and only the heart of the best parmigiano.
... Because most American cooks could not reproduce the richness of the
original butter, today the dish almost always contains heavy cream."
From that, recent US commercial versions of Alfredo "sauce."
"Andy" in news:Xns96A2758906E...@216.196.97.136:
>
>
> YES... a good ol' fashioned rfc food fight!!!
Not so very old-fashioned. Call it the Middle Ages of RFC.
Cheers -- Max
notbob
> Sorry, but it's not a sauce. It's merely dressed with butter and cheese.
How do you figure?
Reduction sauce:
1. liquid (wine or stock)
2. butter
3. burnt meat scum
4. botanicals
...heat on stove to let sauce reduce
How is this different from?:
Alfredo sauce:
1. liquid (water)
2. butter
3. pasta scum
4. pastatanicals
...add butter to boiling hot pasta, liquid reduces by evaporation.
Hmmm.... now that I think about it, I was wrong in the first place.
Afredo sauce does, in fact, include a starch (pasta scum) and an oil
and a liquid. That, no matter how you look at it, is a sauce.
nb
Andy
news:11eku30...@corp.supernews.com:
> Same perennial topic arose recently on an HTTP food forum. Whenever
> there's something like this whose meaning has shifted recently or
> regionally, people will rise zealously to defend the particular
> version they happen to know about. (Whether of fettuccine "Alfredo"
> or the meaning of "French dressing" or even the pronunciation of
> "patina.")
>
> FAQ lists can be good for these things.
>
>
> "Felice Friese" in news:uNudnXA_ncM...@comcast.com:
>>
>> ... Crash, there is no such animal as Alfredo SAUCE.
>> Fettucini Alfredo, or any pasta Alfredo, is simply pasta
>> dressed with butter and Parmesan cheese. No sauce,
>> no cream, no eggs, no nothing else.
>
> That's a very traditional meaning. Here (quoted on aforementioned
> HTTP forum) is J. F. Mariani, something of an authority on history of
> Italian-food adaptations in the US:
>
> " fettuccine Alfredo. ... a staple of Italian-American restaurants
> since the mid-1960s. It was created in Rome in 1920 by Alfredo de
> Lellio... The original dish was made with a very rich triple butter di
> Lellio made himself, three kinds of flour, and only the heart of the
> best parmigiano. ... Because most American cooks could not reproduce
> the richness of the original butter, today the dish almost always
> contains heavy cream."
But if he took his recipe to the grave, how do you know of "triple
butter"? Any modern recipe is a bastardization of the original, agreed.
>> YES... a good ol' fashioned rfc food fight!!!
>
> Not so very old-fashioned. Call it the Middle Ages of RFC.
>
> Cheers -- Max
Max,
Hrrrumph!!! I flick Cheez-Whiz in your direction anyway. :)
Cheerz,
Andy
hob
milk and extra- butter-than-cream sauce, or a skim milk and
more-extra-butter sauce? Or from a white sauce?
I seem to remember cheese and a spice or two in my Alfredo xxxx - or is it
Alfredo xxxxxx? - or Alfredo what-would-you-call-it?
2) Kind of like the dog chasing a car - what does he do with the damn thing
if he catches it?
So... if we all agree it isn't a sauce, what are you going to call that
white, cheesy, et al runny stuff we-all put on pasta? Alfredo's stuff?
"Waiter, please bring a cup of marinara sauce for me and a cup of Alfredo
stuff for her."
"Monsur Fromage du Pollet" <inv...@invalid.null> wrote in message
news:Xns96A240C48...@205.200.16.73...
Felice Friese
> On Fri 29 Jul 2005 08:39:58a, notbob wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>
>> On 2005-07-29, Felice Friese <fri...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> recipe devotes an entire page to making the pasta and about two
>>> sentences
>>> about placing it in a warm bowl and adding butter and cheese.
>>>
>>> Let the wars begin.
>>
>> Unless the pasta is bone dry, it contains some pasta water and this
>> mixed with melted butter and cheese qualifies it as a sauce just as much
>> as any starch-free reduction sauce ...at least in my mind.
>>
>> nb
In YOUR mind, maybe, but not in mine. Drain the damned fettuccine!
Felice
Andy
u...@comcast.com:
> So... if we all agree it isn't a sauce, what are you going to call
that
> white, cheesy, et al runny stuff we-all put on pasta? Alfredo's stuff?
>
Alfredo SNOT.
Andy
Felice Friese
OK, you just made a sauce. But when you pour it onto fettuccine, don't call
it Fettuccine Alfredo. Call it Fettucine Notbob.
Sauces POUR. Butter and cheese DO NOT POUR; they stick to the fettuccine
like library paste but taste a whole lot better.
Felice
Pasta scum? Yuk!
Andy
> Alfredo SNOT.
As in "It snot sauce?"
Or even just abandone Alfredo for his effort and just call it "snot."
More Pino Gregio!!! :)
Andy
notbob
> In YOUR mind, maybe, but not in mine. Drain the damned fettuccine!
Drain it till what!? It's a bone dry solid lump? Nope, fresh pasta
carries water by capillary action. This water has starch disolved in
it. Starch + oil + liquid = sauce
nb
Felice Friese
"Max Hauser" <maxR...@THIStdl.com> wrote in message
news:11eku30...@corp.supernews.com...
<snip>
>
> "Felice Friese" in news:uNudnXA_ncM...@comcast.com:
>>
>> ... Crash, there is no such animal as Alfredo SAUCE.
>> Fettucini Alfredo, or any pasta Alfredo, is simply pasta
>> dressed with butter and Parmesan cheese. No sauce,
>> no cream, no eggs, no nothing else.
>
> That's a very traditional meaning. Here (quoted on aforementioned HTTP
> forum) is J. F. Mariani, something of an authority on history of
> Italian-food adaptations in the US:
>
> " fettuccine Alfredo. ... a staple of Italian-American restaurants since
> the mid-1960s. It was created in Rome in 1920 by Alfredo de Lellio... The
> original dish was made with a very rich triple butter di Lellio made
> himself, three kinds of flour, and only the heart of the best parmigiano.
> ... Because most American cooks could not reproduce the richness of the
> original butter, today the dish almost always contains heavy cream."
>
> From that, recent US commercial versions of Alfredo "sauce."
>
> Cheers -- Max
Mariani's point taken, Max. Oh that we had the butter diLellio had! But
butter alone is richer than butter diluted by cream, no?
Felice
Wayne Boatwright
We'll never agree on this. I pass...
notbob
> OK, you just made a sauce. But when you pour it onto fettuccine, don't call
> it Fettuccine Alfredo. Call it Fettucine Notbob.
> Sauces POUR. Butter and cheese DO NOT POUR; they stick to the fettuccine
> like library paste but taste a whole lot better.
You're splitting sauce hairs. Any sauce can made a lump by too much
cheese. I don't put enough cheese on alfredo to make it a paste.
nb
~patches~
Sorry, caught the cheez-whiz and am now turning it into quick
cauliflower cheese soup.
>
> Cheerz,
>
> Andy
Max Hauser
> ...
> Mariani's point taken, Max. Oh that we had the butter diLellio had! But
> butter alone is richer than butter diluted by cream, no?
I would think so too. Maybe it was the particular dairly flavor, or
something else.
I'm happy however not to have the rest of what diLellio also dealt with.
The _Fascisti_ marched on Rome soon after Alfredo started popularizing that
dish by "making its serving a spectacle reminiscent of Grand Opera" (Waverly
Root). Some Anglophone Italian cookbooks mention the gold tossing utensils
he used, and their confiscation under the ensuing dictatorship and its
efforts to control valuta.
Root's study (_The Food of Italy_) mentions the long history of "Fettuccine
al burro" and versions made outside Rome, and credits Alfredo for
popularizing the dish among tourists, or perhaps refining, not "inventing"
it. Root too gives only butter and cheese as ingredients (in his case
_doppio burro,_ "double," rather than Mariani's triple).
Clearly the dish has some history.
Cheers -- Max
Andy
@corp.supernews.com:
> Sorry, caught the cheez-whiz and am now turning it into quick
> cauliflower cheese soup.
patches,
OK, so I can only imagine you're gonna launch your soup at the "Alfredo
sauce folks in denial" for your own sake! I've got a few cups of pesto
with a range of 5 cafeteria tables and two rfc round tables.
You've been warned! I also have dijon mustard and spatulas. Whose side
are you on?
:D
Andy
barry...@yahoo.com
is it not a sauce, but it's ok to call it "hard sauce?" Or is it a
sauce after all?
-bwg
Wayne Boatwright
It's "hard" to tell. :-)
~patches~
:) I'm on the dijon mustard and spatulas side but I have been known to
sneak in a little Velveeta from time to time. I'd rather use real
cheese for my cauliflower soup too. I'm not too fond of cheese products.
> :D
>
> Andy
Victor Sack
> But she's right, Crash, there is no such animal as Alfredo SAUCE. Fettucini
> Alfredo, or any pasta Alfredo, is simply pasta dressed with butter and
> Parmesan cheese. No sauce, no cream, no eggs, no nothing else.
So verrrry true. Here is what I posted on the matter some years ago:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/f26ec13c0a679021?hl=en&>.
Victor
Victor Sack
> what is Alfredo sauce? Dams says it dont exist.. fact or fiction?
It is the same thing as Stroganoff sauce. They are identical. Now it
should be easy to decide whether Damsel is right or nor.
Victor
Max Hauser
"Victor Sack" in news:1h0hksz.fyjmte1qo7clcN%azaz...@koroviev.de...
> Felice Friese <fri...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> But she's right, Crash, there is no such animal as Alfredo SAUCE.
>
> So verrrry true. Here is what I posted on the matter some years ago:
>
> <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/f26ec13c0a679021?hl=en&>.
Thanks.
(Today Alfredo "sauce," tomorrow pesto "sauce.")
-- Max
Damsel
DAMSEL IS ALWAYS RIGHT!
That being said, we went out to eat this afternoon, and Fettucini Alfredo
was on the menu! I was so excited! I told Crash he should order that for
his lunch. He declined. It seems he doesn't like mixed vegetables and
chicken in his F.A. Go figure!
Carol
notbob
> Felice Friese <fri...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> But she's right, Crash, there is no such animal as Alfredo SAUCE. Fettucini
>> Alfredo, or any pasta Alfredo, is simply pasta dressed with butter and
>> Parmesan cheese. No sauce, no cream, no eggs, no nothing else.
>
> So verrrry true. Here is what I posted on the matter some years ago:
Hogswallop! While I appreciate the history lesson, Victor, I refuse
to buy into Felice's narrow definition of what constitutes a sauce.
Cranberry sauce and apple sauce have none of the above ingredients,
yet so illustrious a chef as Escoffier includes them in his list of
sauces. The same for what we call a vinaigrette, also known as a
ravigote sauce. While I don't find any pure non-flour based reduction
sauces in Escoffier's list (I have only his abbreviated book), I think
we can all agree that a simple wine/butter reduction sauce is still a
sauce. Cooking evolves and so do terms and definitions.
Just for this thread I cooked up this alleged none-sauce dish,
Fettucini Alfredo, using only butter and cheese (and the residual
water on the pasta). Room temp butter, fresh grated pecorino, and hot
fettucini. I'll tell you what ...when done properly the resulting
dish looks and tastes like pasta with a sauce. The way I look at it,
if it looks like a sauce and taste like a sauce, I'm going to call it
a sauce! Time to recarve the tablets. ;)
nb
sf
>
> (Today Alfredo "sauce," tomorrow pesto "sauce.")
>
Felice Friese
"sf" <s...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:siole1hncdsr5mf7v...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:29:14 -0700, Max Hauser wrote:
>>
>> (Today Alfredo "sauce," tomorrow pesto "sauce.")
>>
> Why call it "sauce" in the first place?
Indeed, what's in a name? Let us all sit down together and share some
Fettuccini Alfredo, and NB can think his has a sauce while I can think mine
has just butter and cheese. OK, NB?
Felice
Felice Friese
"Damsel" <dam...@mailblocks.com> wrote in message
news:tbile1dq2k4910jpd...@4ax.com...
Vegetables and chicken in F.A.? I'm staying out of this thread!
Felice
Damsel
> "Damsel" <dam...@mailblocks.com> wrote in message
> news:tbile1dq2k4910jpd...@4ax.com...
> > azaz...@koroviev.de (Victor Sack) said:
> >
> >> Crash <crash...@charter.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> > what is Alfredo sauce? Dams says it dont exist.. fact or fiction?
> >>
> >> It is the same thing as Stroganoff sauce. They are identical. Now it
> >> should be easy to decide whether Damsel is right or nor.
> >
> > DAMSEL IS ALWAYS RIGHT!
> >
> > That being said, we went out to eat this afternoon, and Fettucini Alfredo
> > was on the menu! I was so excited! I told Crash he should order that for
> > his lunch. He declined. It seems he doesn't like mixed vegetables and
> > chicken in his F.A. Go figure!
>
> Vegetables and chicken in F.A.? I'm staying out of this thread!
LOL! See for yourself:
http://www.timberlodgesteakhouse.com/menu.htm
"Fettuccini Alfredo
Fettuccini served with our special alfredo sauce and fresh vegetables
($8.99)
--With Broiled Chicken Breast ($10.99) "
I've had the stuff with veggies in restaurants. I like it, but I don't
know any better. ;)
Carol
Max Hauser
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:29:14 -0700, Max Hauser wrote:
>>
>> (Today Alfredo "sauce," tomorrow pesto "sauce.")
>>
> Why call it "sauce" in the first place?
Yes, exactly.
Ophelia
"Wayne Boatwright" <wayne...@waynes.gang> wrote in message
news:Xns96A292CB58...@217.22.228.19...
> On Fri 29 Jul 2005 02:20:38p, barry...@yahoo.com wrote in
> rec.food.cooking:
>
>> So hard sauce is not a sauce and should not be called "hard sauce?"
>> Or
>> is it not a sauce, but it's ok to call it "hard sauce?" Or is it a
>> sauce after all?
>>
>> -bwg
>>
>>
>
> It's "hard" to tell. :-)
LOL
jmcquown
I'd call that more of a Primavera than an Alfredo. But that's just me :)
Jill
Rick & Cyndi
"Felice Friese" & notbob
<snip>
>>
>> ...add butter to boiling hot pasta, liquid reduces by evaporation.
>>
>> Hmmm.... now that I think about it, I was wrong in the first place.
>> Afredo sauce does, in fact, include a starch (pasta scum) and an oil
>> and a liquid. That, no matter how you look at it, is a sauce.
>>
>> nb
>
> OK, you just made a sauce. But when you pour it onto fettuccine, don't
> call it Fettuccine Alfredo. Call it Fettucine Notbob.
> Sauces POUR. Butter and cheese DO NOT POUR; they stick to the fettuccine
> like library paste but taste a whole lot better.
>
> Felice
>
> Pasta scum? Yuk! ======================
But...but...they do pour - well, until they/it sticks to the pasta. It just
depends upon how much liquid you allow to evaporate.
Cyndi
Bob (this one)
Defining sauce means more than listing ingredients; the process is
consequential. But in the case of Alfredo, it's ingredients added to hot
pasta individually. There's no separate culinary process. Stuff is added
to hot pasta, separately, not combined in advance and cooked together.
Putting ketchup on fries, in silly example, fulfills the same criteria
as the statement that the dish would: "include a starch (potato starch)
and an oil and a liquid. That, no matter how you look at it, is a
sauce." Nah.
Pastorio
notbob
>
> Putting ketchup on fries, in silly example, fulfills the same criteria
Exactly! Hot sauce, chili sauce, tartar sauce, etc.... is not ketchup
also a sauce? The problem here is you folks insist on narrowing
"sauce" down to some sort of elitist French roux concoction. Nah.
nb
Dimitri
"Crash" <crash...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:1122627814.3...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> what is Alfredo sauce? Dams says it dont exist.. fact or fiction?
>
I am sure most have answered by now. Dams is 100% correct. The "sauce" as you
call it is created in the bowl of hot noodles by adding some butter (specially
prepared) some of the pasta water and fresh cheese. The whole mess is mixed in
the bowl causing an unbelievable mixture.
She's right on the money.
Dimitri
sf
>
> LOL! See for yourself:
> http://www.timberlodgesteakhouse.com/menu.htm
>
> "Fettuccini Alfredo
> Fettuccini served with our special alfredo sauce and fresh vegetables
> ($8.99)
> --With Broiled Chicken Breast ($10.99) "
>
> I've had the stuff with veggies in restaurants. I like it, but I don't
> know any better. ;)
>
vegetables on the side.
Damsel
Nope, they're mixed right in. I first had this particular dish about 15
years ago. There are frozen veggie mixtures available with little "chips"
that melt to become ..... alfredo sauce. You just heat the stuff up and
mix it into your own pasta.
Carol
sf
> There are frozen veggie mixtures available with little "chips"
> that melt to become ..... alfredo sauce. You just heat the stuff up and
> mix it into your own pasta.
No kidding? Where have I been?
Damsel
Apparently, not in the frozen food aisle. LOL!
Carol, who unashamedly uses this stuff
Kevin_Sheehy
sf wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:07:56 -0500, Damsel wrote:
> No kidding? Where have I been?
Probably collecting Sandra Lee memorabilia.
sf
LOL... your reading comprehension needs a tune up.
Bob (this one)
> On 2005-07-30, Bob (this one) <B...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>Putting ketchup on fries, in silly example, fulfills the same criteria
>
> Exactly! Hot sauce, chili sauce, tartar sauce, etc.... is not ketchup
> also a sauce?
None is really a sauce in the classic senses; tartar sauce the possible
exception as an augmentation of an emulsified sauce. Sauces are
thickened and seasoned, well-flavored liquids, by definition.
All are sauces to the marketing department. The map is not the territory.
> The problem here is you folks insist on narrowing
> "sauce" down to some sort of elitist French roux concoction. Nah.
You did miss the point. The spuds provide starch and moisture to make
the whole thing a "sauce" by your definition. But the obverse of your
point is that there are no definitions of what a sauce is, and anything
you point to and say "sauce" is now a sauce. Nah.
Sauces don't have to have roux to be sauces, but they can't be assembled
as Alfredo by adding a few ingredients to the food at the last minute.
That's "seasoning."
Pastorio
Max Hauser
>
> ... But the obverse of your point
Reverse.
3rd pph of http://tinyurl.com/ckkb3 .
... Freundlichen Grüßen! -- Max
Bob (this one)
> "Bob (this one)" in news:11eofdh...@corp.supernews.com:
>
>>... But the obverse of your point
>
> Reverse.
No, I said what I meant.
Webster's Unabridged:
Obverse, n.
in logic, the negative counterpart of an affirmative proposition, or the
affirmative counterpart of a negative; as "no one is infallible" is the
obverse of "everyone is fallible."
obvert, v.t.
in logic, to state the obverse of (a proposition)
> 3rd pph of http://tinyurl.com/ckkb3 .
Nice piece. Happy labels.
Pastorio
Max Hauser
> Max Hauser wrote:
>
>> "Bob (this one)" in news:11eofdh...@corp.supernews.com:
>>
>>>... But the obverse of your point
>>
>> Reverse.
>
Sorry, I mis-read the sense of it.
(Numbed by encounters lately with the "obverse" side of a question,
document, coin, ...)
Bob (this one)
> "Bob (this one)" in news:11ep1sc...@corp.supernews.com:
>
>>Max Hauser wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Bob (this one)" in news:11eofdh...@corp.supernews.com:
>>>
>>>
>>>>... But the obverse of your point
>>>
>>>Reverse.
>>
>>No, I said what I meant. [philos. def.]
>
>
> Sorry, I mis-read the sense of it.
>
> (Numbed by encounters lately with the "obverse" side of a question,
> document, coin, ...)
I understand that sort of numbness.
Some of my faves are "very unique" as though something that is
one-of-a-kind-can be compared to anything else. I also like "proactive"
because it means to, um, be active, first... sometimes. And the other
day, a woman call my program and asked what kid of "infrastructure" I
had in my kitchen. I'm afraid I offended the poor dear with sustained
laughter. Nobody has yet found an actual meaning for that word.
Pastorio
notbob
> None is really a sauce in the classic senses; tartar sauce the possible
> exception as an augmentation of an emulsified sauce. Sauces are
> thickened and seasoned, well-flavored liquids, by definition.
References, please. Who's definition determines the "classic senses"?
Why would tartar sauce qualify just because it's an emulsion, but not
ketchup?
> All are sauces to the marketing department. The map is not the territory.
Clever wordage signifying nothing. A-1 is a "thickened and seasoned,
well flavored liquid".
> point is that there are no definitions of what a sauce is, and anything
> you point to and say "sauce" is now a sauce. Nah.
Well, I must admit as we discuss this, the definition does seem to be
expanding.
> Sauces don't have to have roux to be sauces, but they can't be assembled
> as Alfredo by adding a few ingredients to the food at the last minute.
> That's "seasoning."
Then what do would you call the "thickened and seasoned, well flavored
liquid" that surrounds most Chinese food? It's not assembled
separately and "poured" (another dubious criteria) onto the dish.
It's been an interesting discussion, but my monitor is starting to
die. Keeps going unreadably fuzzy after it's been on for awhile.
Now, where'd I put that old 17 incher........ :\
nb
Bob (this one)
> On 2005-07-31, Bob (this one) <B...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>None is really a sauce in the classic senses; tartar sauce the possible
>>exception as an augmentation of an emulsified sauce. Sauces are
>>thickened and seasoned, well-flavored liquids, by definition.
>
> References, please. Who's definition determines the "classic senses"?
Um, the classic definitions. Ingredients and techniques as agreed upon
by knowledgeable professional cooks. It's all a construct when you come
down to it. The practitioners agree on nomenclature and process and
ingredients and...
Over time, that changes as new technologies emerge. New ingredients.
Incompetent cooks on TV, boneheads who write cookbooks without knowing
any history or anything beyond their small worlds... Stuff like that
changes the definitions. Like "Alfredo sauce."
> Why would tartar sauce qualify just because it's an emulsion, but not
> ketchup?
Tartar sauce starts with mayonnaise, an emulsified sauce; things are
added for texture and flavor. Mayonnaise is something one can duplicate
at home because the techniques and ingredients are easily available.
Ketchup starts with high fructose corn syrup and takes it from there as
a product of the industrial revolution rather than the kitchen.
Commercial ketchups are virtually induplicable outside a lab or factory.
>>All are sauces to the marketing department. The map is not the territory.
>
> Clever wordage signifying nothing.
It signifies that the name isn't the reality. Hot "sauce" isn't a sauce
irrespective of what the label says.
> A-1 is a "thickened and seasoned, well flavored liquid".
Exactly; it is. But it, too, like ketchup, is induplicable in a kitchen
outside of a laboratory or factory. I'd say that if it takes a village
to build it, it's more a matter of physics and chemistry than cuisine.
>>point is that there are no definitions of what a sauce is, and anything
>>you point to and say "sauce" is now a sauce. Nah.
>
> Well, I must admit as we discuss this, the definition does seem to be
> expanding.
>
>>Sauces don't have to have roux to be sauces, but they can't be assembled
>>as Alfredo by adding a few ingredients to the food at the last minute.
>>That's "seasoning."
>
> Then what do would you call the "thickened and seasoned, well flavored
> liquid" that surrounds most Chinese food? It's not assembled
> separately and "poured" (another dubious criteria) onto the dish.
It sure is. It's cornstarch-based and added at the last minute to
thicken and coat. It's not even a gravy which is a thickened pan juice.
Condiments are added during cooking and it's all thickened at the last.
just before being taken off the heat.
Pastorio
notbob
> Over time, that changes as new technologies emerge. New ingredients.
> Incompetent cooks on TV, boneheads who write cookbooks without knowing
> any history or anything beyond their small worlds... Stuff like that
> changes the definitions. Like "Alfredo sauce."
That's what I said. Things change. Just because Alfredo is not
considered a sauce by traditionalists now doesn't mean it won't in the
future.
> Ketchup starts with high fructose corn syrup and takes it from there as
Now your just being silly to win an arguement. Anyone can make
homemade ketchup or hot sauce or bbq sauce.
> It signifies that the name isn't the reality. Hot "sauce" isn't a sauce
> irrespective of what the label says.
Again, you insist on taking a narrow European view. What is salsa
but a sauce in another language.
> > A-1 is a "thickened and seasoned, well flavored liquid".
> Exactly; it is. But it, too, like ketchup, is induplicable in a kitchen
> outside of a laboratory or factory. I'd say that if it takes a village
> to build it, it's more a matter of physics and chemistry than cuisine.
Fortunately for home cooks, you are not the sole arbiter of all things
edible.
> It sure is. It's cornstarch-based and added at the last minute to
> thicken and coat. It's not even a gravy which is a thickened pan juice.
Now you're just making stuff up. There is no thickened sauce added in
wok cooking. It's assembled in stages during the cooking process. Oil
first. Often the food, say meat, is dusted with corn starch prior to
adding. Later, a liquid is added or sweated from veggies. And to say
there is no meat juices is just wrong. Basic cooking physics is not
suspended just because Asian are flogging the fire. The sauce is
created during preparation ....WOW!.... just like Alfredo!!
That's ok, bob. I know I'm not going to convince you. You have that
old world view of what a sauce is and anything that doesn't fit is not
a sauce. Fine. Let's just agree we disagree. :)
nb
Damsel
> There is no thickened sauce added in
> wok cooking. It's assembled in stages during the cooking process. Oil
> first. Often the food, say meat, is dusted with corn starch prior to
> adding. Later, a liquid is added or sweated from veggies. And to say
> there is no meat juices is just wrong. Basic cooking physics is not
> suspended just because Asian are flogging the fire. The sauce is
> created during preparation ....WOW!.... just like Alfredo!!
That's it! I'm making beef and broccoli alfredo for dinner tomorrow night!
<EG>
Carol
notbob
> That's it! I'm making beef and broccoli alfredo for dinner tomorrow night!
><EG>
Yeah! ....and what's the deal with the Chinese and cheese? What, they
never figured out how to milk anything? ;)
nb
Lynn from Fargo
Dimitri wrote:
(snip)> I am sure most have answered by now. Dams is 100% correct. The
"sauce" as you
> call it is created in the bowl of hot noodles by adding some butter (specially
> prepared) some of the pasta water and fresh cheese. The whole mess is mixed in
> the bowl causing an unbelievable mixture.
>
> She's right on the money.
>
> Dimitri
Unbelievable is right! I simply can't stand the stuff - any of it
jarred, frozen, scratch . . . blech. Always tastes "pre-digested to me.
Lynn from Fargo
(coming back after a bout with a gastro bleed)
Bob
> That's it! I'm making beef and broccoli alfredo for dinner tomorrow
> night! <EG>
Come to think of it, sautéed broccoli and sirloin strips with butter and
Parmesan *does* sound pretty good. Maybe even with some cream added.
Bob
Damsel
> Unbelievable is right! I simply can't stand the stuff - any of it
> jarred, frozen, scratch . . . blech. Always tastes "pre-digested to me.
I don't like the jarred stuff - won't even attempt to eat it. But I like
the other variations I've tried.
> Lynn from Fargo
> (coming back after a bout with a gastro bleed)
You poor kid. :(
Were you still able to participate in the production?
Carol
Bob (this one)
> On 2005-07-31, Bob (this one) <B...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> Over time, that changes as new technologies emerge. New
>> ingredients. Incompetent cooks on TV, boneheads who write cookbooks
>> without knowing any history or anything beyond their small
>> worlds... Stuff like that changes the definitions. Like "Alfredo
>> sauce."
>
> That's what I said. Things change. Just because Alfredo is not
> considered a sauce by traditionalists now doesn't mean it won't in
> the future.
Alfredo, as has been recounted here many times, is the addition of
butter and parmesan cheese to cooked pasta. That's Alfredo. If people
want to make stuff in a pan and dump it on pasta, that still doesn't
necessarily make it a sauce. Does putting butter on steamed broccoli
qualify it as "butter sauce?"
>> Ketchup starts with high fructose corn syrup and takes it from
>> there as
>
> Now your just being silly to win an arguement. Anyone can make
> homemade ketchup or hot sauce or bbq sauce.
>
>
>> It signifies that the name isn't the reality. Hot "sauce" isn't a
>> sauce irrespective of what the label says.
>
> Again, you insist on taking a narrow European view. What is salsa
> but a sauce in another language.
And would you call the chunky tomato-based raw vegetable "salsa" a sauce?
>>> A-1 is a "thickened and seasoned, well flavored liquid".
>
>> Exactly; it is. But it, too, like ketchup, is induplicable in a
>> kitchen outside of a laboratory or factory. I'd say that if it
>> takes a village to build it, it's more a matter of physics and
>> chemistry than cuisine.
>
> Fortunately for home cooks, you are not the sole arbiter of all
> things edible.
non sequitur.
>> It sure is. It's cornstarch-based and added at the last minute to
>> thicken and coat. It's not even a gravy which is a thickened pan
>> juice.
>
> Now you're just making stuff up.
Please don't pull that condescending bullshit with me. I'm making
nothing up.
> There is no thickened sauce added in wok cooking.
Really? There can be and often is. But what I said was that typically,
the thickened liquid happens at the very end with a slurry added. A
slurry is a liquid and a starch.
> It's assembled in stages during the cooking process.
Sometimes it is. Mostly it isn't. We're still talking about thickened
liquids in lots of Chinese foods.
> Oil first. Often the food, say
> meat, is dusted with corn starch prior to adding.
But usually, it's not.
> Later, a liquid is added or sweated from veggies. And to say there
> is no meat juices is just wrong.
I didn't say any such thing. And woks are frying very hot. Any liquid
released from veggies will be steam pretty quickly. Likewise meat
juices. Stir frying happens at upwards of 400°F surface temp in a wok.
Not much juice can survive that.
> Basic cooking physics is not
> suspended just because Asian are flogging the fire. The sauce is
> created during preparation ....WOW!.... just like Alfredo!!
The point is that doing that isn't making a sauce. Cornstarch slurries
are *routinely* added at the end of cooking in a wok. The best you can
call that is a gravy. As for it being done in stages, that defines pan
preparation, not a sauce.
I'm coming to the sense that any liquid in a finished dish is what you
mean by a sauce. Or anything that anyone calls "sauce" is a sauce.
Correct me if that's not what you're saying. If it is, I can't accept
that because it's so open as to foreclose nothing. A tablespoon of
yogurt dumped into a saute comprises a sauce by the terms you seem to be
offering.
Pastorio
Dee Randall
"Bob (this one)" <B...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:11erhhm...@corp.supernews.com...
I've not been reading this thread diligently, but now that it seems to be
coming to a close and your definition well-defined by the last paragraph, I
want to ask, if you were writing a recipe that included a tablespoon of
yogurt at the end, would you say, spoon the 'liquid' over the ..." or would
you say spoon the 'sauce' over the ...
In my mind it is little more than semantics, that we sometimes use the word
'sauce' for liquid; and everyone reading the recipe would know what the
writer means.
However, if there were a separate part of the recipe that indicated you were
assembling ingredients to make a sauce; that indeed would be a sauce.
I see no real problem with using the word sauce to indicate 'liquid
ingredient.' Hopefully I would not be confused that there were no followup
recipe for a particular sauce to pour over the dish.
Dee Dee
Bob (this one)
> I've not been reading this thread diligently, but now that it seems to be
> coming to a close and your definition well-defined by the last paragraph, I
> want to ask, if you were writing a recipe that included a tablespoon of
> yogurt at the end, would you say, spoon the 'liquid' over the ..." or would
> you say spoon the 'sauce' over the ...
I'd say "add the yogurt..."
What most people don't realize is that culinary terms are technical
terms. They have meanings already and playing fast and loose with them,
using them to try to mean something else, devalues them for their real
application.
> In my mind it is little more than semantics, that we sometimes use the word
> 'sauce' for liquid; and everyone reading the recipe would know what the
> writer means.
And if the computer manual said to plug it in to get "juice" from the
wall, most people would know what's meant. But what's wrong with using
the actual name or term to begin with?
> However, if there were a separate part of the recipe that indicated you were
> assembling ingredients to make a sauce; that indeed would be a sauce.
> I see no real problem with using the word sauce to indicate 'liquid
> ingredient.'
Therein, of course, is the crux of the discussion. What's wrong with
using the name of the ingredient? Why make it less accurate? Why
introduce a needless term?
> Hopefully I would not be confused
And to forestall that, just use the name of the ingredient and there
won;'t be confusion.
A guy told me long ago, don't write it so they *can* understand it;
write it so they *can't* misunderstand it. Makes life easier and more
accurate. Reduces guesswork and error potential.
> that there were no followup
> recipe for a particular sauce to pour over the dish.
My way reduces the "hopefully" part. Fewer mistakes.
Pastorio
Dee Randall
****
Oh, my, my question was confusing.
I wrote:
I
>> ".... want to ask, if you were writing a recipe that included a
>> tablespoon of yogurt at the end, would you say, spoon the 'liquid' over
>> the ..." or would you say spoon the 'sauce' over the ...
and your answer was:
> I'd say "add the yogurt..."
I should've included one more word: chicken (I was leaving that up to one's
own finished product)
So my question is:
If you were writing a recipe that included a tablespoon of yogurt at the
end, and there was a liquid+the yogurt still in the pan and when the chicken
was plated, would you say, 'spoon the liquid over the chicken" or would you
say, 'spoon the sauce' over the chicken'?
And your answer IS????
You would say, spoon the liquid over the chicken? Right? Or perhaps, spoon
the broth over the chicken? But never, spoon the sauce over the chicken?
If this is the case, and you are being technical in culinary terms, I would
agree that you wouldn't use, 'spoon the sauce' over the chicken. I suppose
I WOULD/MIGHT be looking for the 'sauce' as an integral part of this dish.
Dee Dee
notbob
>
> I'm coming to the sense that any liquid in a finished dish is what you
> mean by a sauce. Or anything that anyone calls "sauce" is a sauce.
> Correct me if that's not what you're saying. If it is, I can't accept
> that because it's so open as to foreclose nothing. A tablespoon of
> yogurt dumped into a saute comprises a sauce by the terms you seem to be
> offering.
And so wine in a saute IS a sauce, but yogurt, NO. Hear that, South
East Asia!? You've screwed-the-pooch, too!
To state the obverse, anything the French don't accept as a sauce you
also don't accept. A sauce must be a fat/starch roux and a well
seasoned liquid and must be prepared in a saucier pan, be pourable,
and made only by a single person located away from a bottling plant.
Nothing else can be a sauce. Oh, except an emulsion. We'll let that
one in. Oh, and don't forget a wine reduction with butter. We'll
allow that one, too. BUT! ...nothing else. No one can use the term
sauce for anything else. Not even gravy. (Well, yes, we know it's
the exact same thing, but, sacre bleu!, you can't call it a sauce! We
have spoken.) Yep, screw the Chinese and the Mexicans and the Italians
and the Indians, the term sauce is taken! Neener, neener.
So, you are correct. I take an improper generic world view of sauces
and you take the proper French view. So be it. From now on I will
endeavor to use the correct non-French "term", such as salsa and curry
and Alfredo and "icky commercial stuff in a bottle" and we'll all be
happy again. BTW, what's the correct term for the incorrectly named,
"dipping sauce"? Dipping juice? Dipping liquid?..... ;)
notsauced
Lynn from Fargo
the bleed is what I get for living in an un-airconditioned dorm and
eating cafeteria chili and Taco John's for a month!
Lynn
Dimitri
"Andy" <Q> wrote in message news:Xns96A255D1440...@216.196.97.136...
> Galet <Franco.Raim...@tin.it> wrote in news:42ea13d3_1
> @newsgate.x-privat.org:
>
>> Monsur Fromage du Pollet wrote:
>>> Crash wrote on 29 Jul 2005 in rec.food.cooking
>>>
>>>
>>>>what is Alfredo sauce? Dams says it dont exist.. fact or fiction?
>>>>
>>>>Crash
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Fact...The thing commonly called Alfredo Sauce is actually a Cream
> and
>>> Butter Sauce.
>>>
>>
>> True. And, to the best of my knowledge, "Alfredo Sauce" is nearly
>> unknown outside the US (e.g. no A.S. in Italy, very rare in the UK).
>>
>> F
>
>
> Uhmmm...
>
> http://www.e-rcps.com/pasta/rcp/p_abc/alfredo.shtml
>
>
> Andy
Take a look here:
http://www.jamesbeard.org/events/2004/05/015.shtml
Do you think the James Beard institute knows what they are talking about?
Dimitri
Bob (this one)
> On 2005-08-01, Bob (this one) <B...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm coming to the sense that any liquid in a finished dish is what you
>>mean by a sauce. Or anything that anyone calls "sauce" is a sauce.
>>Correct me if that's not what you're saying. If it is, I can't accept
>>that because it's so open as to foreclose nothing. A tablespoon of
>>yogurt dumped into a saute comprises a sauce by the terms you seem to be
>>offering.
>
>
> And so wine in a saute IS a sauce, but yogurt, NO.
I don't say that or anything like it, anywhere. The wine isn't a sauce.
The yogurt isn't a sauce. The wine is wine. The yogurt is yogurt.
> Hear that, South
> East Asia!? You've screwed-the-pooch, too!
You're getting sillier and sillier inventing positions for me.
Let me make a small suggestion. Do learn something about the subject
before trying to do this. Thus far, you've seemed to try to define sauce
as "whatever I say is a sauce is a sauce."
Good for you. Saves all that thinking and defining and things like that.
> To state the obverse, anything the French don't accept as a sauce you
> also don't accept.
Like that word "obverse" that I showed you the definition of, huh...?
Use it 10 more times (only this time use it properly) and you'll have it
forever.
You know, making up straw men and ascribing them to me is pretty thin,
like pan juices with no starch. And your logic. And your facts.
> A sauce must be a fat/starch roux and a well
> seasoned liquid and must be prepared in a saucier pan, be pourable,
> and made only by a single person located away from a bottling plant.
I see that your descent into frustrated madness has proceeded well
along. And the way you cope is to make increasingly absurd statements to
desperately try to rescue your already failed effort to make every
earthly and several Martian fluids into "sauce." Which "sauce" is
defined merely as being fluid or anything else you say is this "sauce."
What a wonderful thing is this ubiquitous if ineffably vague "sauce" is.
> Nothing else can be a sauce. Oh, except an emulsion. We'll let that
> one in.
Yes. We will. People with actual culinary knowledge agree that
mayonnaise, aioli and the like are sauces. I know. It's not fair to
saddle you with the knowledge of professionals. So inhibiting.
> Oh, and don't forget a wine reduction with butter. We'll
> allow that one, too.
Sorry. No that's beurre blanc and it's not a sauce. FYI, it can be made
with nothing but butter. No need for wine or lemon juice or any other
extraneous liquid. In which case the correct name for it - be sure to
spell it correctly - is "butter."
> BUT! ...nothing else. No one can use the term
> sauce for anything else. Not even gravy. (Well, yes, we know it's
> the exact same thing, but, sacre bleu!, you can't call it a sauce! We
> have spoken.)
You're absolutely correct. Gravy and a sauce are exactly identical, not
a whit of difference, no discernible divergence from their precise
exactitude. And I hear you're the Queen of Romania...
But seriously, you really should read a book. If this discourse is any
indication, read any book. That'll be one in a row.
> Yep, screw the Chinese and the Mexicans and the Italians
> and the Indians, the term sauce is taken! Neener, neener.
Listen, anybody can use intelligent, careful definitions, formulated and
respected by well-educated professionals. It takes a true genius to make
up new and irrelevant additions to them to widen the vista to include
things from Hogwarts, Middle Earth and Shangri La. Great cooks in all
those places. No spatulas, just magic wands. I hear those culinary
wizards can change definitions with just a wave of their imaginations.
> So, you are correct. I take an improper generic world view of sauces
read: "Whatever *I* say a sauce is"
Hilarious - "generic world view of sauces" - has that ring of "almost
meaning" so popular amongst bureaucrats and university PC coordinators.
Marvelously bereft of meaning, yet including actual words anyway. Should
help all dieters since it's so "content-free."
> and you take the proper French view.
And another skill of yours is this mind reading. Has to be Hogwarts.
> So be it. From now on I will
> endeavor to use the correct non-French "term", such as salsa and curry
> and Alfredo
Alfredo is fettuccine with butter and parmesan cheese. Hard to find a
"sauce" in there, even with your non-definitional definition.
And you think that "curry" is a sauce?
> and "icky commercial stuff in a bottle" and we'll all be
> happy again.
It's what I live for.
> BTW, what's the correct term for the incorrectly named,
> "dipping sauce"? Dipping juice? Dipping liquid?..... ;)
"Stuff leaking from the attenuated cranium of notbob through its many
apertures." It's lengthy, I will concede, but I know your penchant for
precision and accuracy. Here's a hankie. Wipe yourself.
No, no, you keep it.
Pastorio
Bob (this one)
The juices in the pan are properly, pan juices. Adding another flavoring
agent doesn't convert pan juices to a sauce or even a gravy. I'd say
spoon the pan juices over the... Or pour the pan juices...
> If this is the case, and you are being technical in culinary terms, I
> would agree that you wouldn't use, 'spoon the sauce' over the
> chicken. I suppose I WOULD/MIGHT be looking for the 'sauce' as an
> integral part of this dish.
It's like the word "preheat" when talking about ovens before baking or
roasting. I say "heat" because that's what's happening. It's like so
many other locutions that contribute no information. Yet, people argue
that the idea of heating the oven empty should have a different name
than when it has something in it. Ridiculous.
The liquid in a pan may or may not be a sauce. It may or may not be a
gravy. It may or may not be pan juices. Or it may be a splash of wine
added at the last second. They all have definitional strength. If you're
talking casually, "sauce" is fine. If you're communicating with
knonwledgeable cooks, it seems to me that the right term adds clarity to
the description. Fortunately, it doesn't count on your permanent record.
Pastorio
notbob
>> And so wine in a saute IS a sauce, but yogurt, NO.
> You're getting sillier and sillier inventing positions for me.
Me!? Your the one who keeps negating a whole planet of sauces. I
keep telling what I and others consider to be sauces and you keep
shooting them down. Let's work from the other direction. What do you
consider to be a sauce? Let's hear your definition.
nb
sf
>
> Take a look here:
>
> http://www.jamesbeard.org/events/2004/05/015.shtml
>
> Do you think the James Beard institute knows what they are talking about?
>
combined with a slug of melted butter and a smattering of
Parmigiano-Reggiano. There's nothing earth shaking about it because
"smattering" is the key word. The James Beard Alfredo explanation is
my "pasta with a sprinkling of cheese".
In any case, most Alfredo recipes have far too much cheese (and
fillers) in them so they need something to lighten them. Which means
Alfredo "sauce" is a good description. They should call it cheese
sauce, but for most people cheese sauce only comes in yellow... so
Alfredo is the best discriptor for the vast majority of us. At least
we know we're not getting the same cheese sauce they pour over nachos.
BTW: I'm as wary of Alfredo (sauce) on the menu as I am of
Hollandaise... which is another recipe that has far too many
restaurant interpretations and 99% of them are absolutely awful.
Bob (this one)
> On 2005-08-01, Bob (this one) <B...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>>And so wine in a saute IS a sauce, but yogurt, NO.
>
>>You're getting sillier and sillier inventing positions for me.
>
> Me!?
Yes, you. You quote yourself above as though I had said it. That's
either incompetent bullshit or deliberate bullshit. I specifically
*didn't* say that. *That* kind of inventing positions, whatever the
motivation or error.
> Your the one who keeps negating a whole planet of sauces.
I reject your vague characterization as any liquid being a sauce. I
asked if that's what you're trying to say and I see no denial or
definition.
> I
> keep telling what I and others consider to be sauces and you keep
> shooting them down.
Some people believe the earth is flat. Others believe that microwaves
cook from the inside out. Others believe that citing their invisible
friends lends credibility to their opinions. I say that merely calling
it a sauce doesn't mean that it is. Anyone can call it anything they
wish. A combination of vinegar, salt and pureed peppers is called "hot
sauce" by the guys who package it. I would no more let the marketers and
manufacturers of commercial foods like these define them than I would
listen to Yogi Berra explain exobiology.
> Let's work from the other direction. What do you
> consider to be a sauce? Let's hear your definition.
It's not one definition. There are several different kinds, arrived at
through different techniques. Sauce is not one kind of thing.
Let's be more systematic than you've been thus far. I say that mostly
you've named condiments and called them sauces. My definitions:
CONDIMENTS are either compounds or processed ingredients used as
flavoring, coloring or texturing agents. They can include soy sauce,
ketchup and Worcestershire sauce as well as extracts, mustards, pickles,
chutneys, dressings, oils and vinegars.
Here's a piece of a cooking course I wrote some years back. It's based
on the French approaches, but goes to other understandings as well and
isn't limited to the French visions. The reason I chose the French
definitions then (and would likely still) is that, like no one else,
they codified and defined the ways to make sauces and the ingredients to
use for the bases. No other culture has so rigorously approached this
aspect of cuisine. Japanese and several Chinese cuisines are certainly
the match of French for their detailed intelligence, but not about
sauces. And no one else uses them as well as or as subtly as do the
French. In the past century or more, bottled condiments have been called
sauces for lack of a word that works as well; strikes a chord of
recognition as strongly, even if it subverts the meaning. But it's a
synthetic extension of the meaning, much as "frappacino" is an extension
of the names of several different coffee concoctions.
In the absence of any alternative definitions beyond "all liquids are
sauces," these work.
Soups and sauces are companion culinary processes; Here they are
together in schema.
SOUPS AND SAUCES
There are only four different kinds of soups. Everything else is a
variation on the basic types. They are:
1. Consomme/stock based - these soups begin with simmered bones and
flesh from land or sea animals and then have other ingredients added.
2. Cream soups - these soups begin with a White Sauce or a Bechamel,
see below, then have other ingredients added.
3. Vegetable based - these soups may have animal materials in them,
like salt pork, or shredded meats, but usually they're made entirely of
vegetable materials.
4. Fruit soups - usually served cold and made from fruit, spices and a
thickener and sometimes include spirits. Served as either appetizer or
dessert.
The French call their basic sauces "Mother Sauces" and either use them
alone or add other ingredients to make compound or "Small Sauces". We'll
be taking a more liberal view of sauce cookery than the classic cuisines
did. I say there are six basic sauces. Let's look at the roots of modern
sauce making:
1. Brown sauces are made from a base made from browned beef and/or veal
bones and meat. They are simmered, skimmed, reduced and thickened with a
brown roux.
2. White sauces (Veloute) are made from a base made of veal and/or
chicken or fish without browning or pre-cooking of any kind. Meats and
bones are also simmered, skimmed, reduced and thickened with a blonde roux.
3. Bechamel also incorrectly called white sauce is based on a white
roux, milk or cream and flavorings. Sometimes made with veal stock.
4. Emulsified sauces are served either cold like Mayonnaise or warm like
Hollandaise or Bearnaise. They are all based on one fact of physics -
oils can be held emulsified by either egg yolk or acids, and do so in
surprising quantity. One yolk will bind nearly a cup of oil, and two
tablespoons of acid will hold as much as a pound and a half of butter.
Beurre blanc, while not a true sauce since nothing else is actually
required but butter, is often included in this category, but it
shouldn’t be. Upon cooling, it usually breaks, and so is not a true
emulsion.
5. Pureed sauces are based on vegetables, sometimes including stocks.
The most common one is tomato sauce for pasta. Classic French cuisine
doesn't recognize this as a type in its own right even though they use
them in daily cooking.
6. Dessert and custard sauces - these aren't a single type of sauce like
those above. They occupy a small part of sauce cookery but demand
techniques all their own.
7. NOT a true sauce - gravy made from pan juices with the last minute
addition of flour or other starch. They lack the finished fullness of
long-cooked sauces, but have their place in daily cuisine.
Both soups and sauces require stocks. Let's look at the types of
stocks, how to make them and some variations, starting with some
preliminary definitions.
Bouquet garni - the aromatic ingredients of stocks, usually parsley or
chervil, bay leaf, thyme and clove. Used either tied in a tube of celery
stalks or in small cheesecloth bags.
Colloid - a suspension of very small particles in another substance.
This is the basis for all the classic sauces. Egg based sauces are
emulsions (a suspension of one liquid in another) and starch thickened
sauces are sols (a dispersion of a solid in a liquid).
Depouillage - literally, stripping. Removal of all the fat and
impurities from a stock or sauce.
Fonds - stocks - the French word for "foundations" or "bases". There
are two types, fonds brun (brown) and fonds blanc (white).
Fumet - fonds blanc made from fish.
Liaison - literally, a bond. In classic French cuisine, any thickener
(qv). In modern cookery, the name of a process wherein some of the hot
stock is mixed with the thickener to both dilute and warm it. The
mixture is then whisked into the stock and the combination simmered.
Most often used with egg, but will work with any thickener.
Marmite or stock pot - a pot for simmering, taller than it is wide.
Mirepoix or matignon - basically equal quantities of celery, carrot and
onion plus bay leaf and thyme. If left in large pieces, it's called a
mirepoix. If minced, a matignon. Also called the aromatic ingredients.
Puree - food reduced to pulp either by cooking or processing.
Roux - the archaic French word for "red" that 200 years ago came to
mean flour cooked long enough to change color. Equal weights flour and
butter combined and cooked until a nutty odor can be detected. There are
three basic roux. White roux is cooked long enough to get rid of the raw
smell, but not long enough to change color. Blonde roux is slightly
browned and brown roux is cooked to a deep brown color, but not burned.
The more a roux is cooked and the darker the color, the less thickening
power it has.
Thickeners - There have been many different substances used to thicken
liquids. The most common today are:
Starches - derived from plants - corn, tapioca, wheat, arrowroot, etc.
- used with fat (as a roux); water, stock, wine, etc. (as a slurry) or
added directly to liquids to thicken.
Egg - added to liquids below 185 degrees makes them thicken. At
boiling, the eggs separate and curdle. The basis for custards. When used
with acid and oil at lower temperature, the basis for emulsified sauces
like mayonnaise and hollandaise.
Gelatine - processed from animals and chiefly used to thicken or
solidify cooled liquids.
Gums - plant derived, used to add body to candies, ice creams and
dessert items mostly by commercial producers.
Veloute - (veh-loo-tay) literally, velvet. Smooth sauce made from fonds
blanc.
"Sauce" is a French word with some specific meanings. And at no extra
charge, the completion of a thread from the other day:
ESPAGNOLE SAUCE
Yield: 2 quarts
1 1/2 sticks butter
1 small onion, diced
1 rib celery, diced
1 medium carrot, diced
1 sprig thyme
1 1/2 cups flour
3 quarts brown stock
1/2 cup tomato puree
2 bay leaves
Saute vegetables in butter until tender, add thyme. Add flour all at
once, stirring well to mix. Cook until raw smell is gone, 5 to 8
minutes. Whisking, add stock, tomato puree and bay leaf. Bring to a
boil, reduce heat and simmer for 2 1/2 hours, skimming as necessary.
Strain and cool.
DEMI GLACE
Yield: 1quart
1quart Espagnole sauce
1quart brown stock
1/4 cup madeira wine
Combine Espagnole and stock and bring to a boil. Lower heat to a simmer
and reduce liquid to half volume, skimming if needed. When reduced,
strain. Add madeira, cool then refrigerate.
Nothing out of a factory or out of a bottle will come close to the
intensity and utility of these sauces. Ketchup is a decoration;
demi-glace is a completion.
Pastorio
notbob
> I say that merely calling
> it a sauce doesn't mean that it is.
Unless you're French.
> Here's a piece of a cooking course I wrote some years back. It's based
> on the French approaches......
French definitions of French sauces used in French cooking. Yeah, we
read the book and saw the tv show. Amazing how a Frenchman can puree
a vegetable and it's a sauce, but not a Mexican or a granny from
Toledo. Them Asians cook some good grub, but without a dollop of
mother sauce, how good can it be. We get it now, Bob. Only you and
the French can say what a sauce is. Whew, I'm glad we got that
straightened out. You can come down from the mount, now.
nb
Dee Randall
"sf" <s...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7ente1p4am3mhln5f...@4ax.com...
Re:
which is another recipe that has far too many
> restaurant interpretations and 99% of them are absolutely awful.
I definitely agree with this. Many are a very thick bechamel with some white
cheese and/or a little Parmesan-type cheese added. The thickness of the
bechamel gets clogged in the back of your throat -- I'm probably eating it
too fast trying to get some taste.
Some restaurant will put a huge amount of this thick cheese sauce on the
noodles, like some used to add almost a cup of dressing to a salad.
Dee Dee
Dee Dee
Dimitri
Amen to that - IMHO the cheese is there too augment not replace the butter
flavor.
Next time try an old Italian trick ( I say that because my Italian
Step-grandmother used to do this) - throw 2 or 3 bay leaves into the pasta
water when cold. Obviously throw them away after the pasta is cooked. With
delicate preparations this will give the pasts itself a delightful fragrance and
very very slight flavor.
BTW I never eat Alfredo out unless at a known Italian place.
Dimitri
Dimitri
"Lynn from Fargo" <lynn...@i29.net> wrote in message
news:1122859268.5...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I suggest some day if you get to NYC or Disney Florida try the real stuff.
Dimitri
Shaun aRe
"Bob (this one)" <B...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:11etbrq...@corp.supernews.com...
> And you think that "curry" is a sauce?
That would of course depend, on which of the many supposed 'authoritative'
etymologies you dig through and buy into.
Here:
"Curry, a term adopted into the English language from India...The Tamil word
"kari" is the starting point. It means a spicy sauce, one of the sorts of
dressing taken in S. India with rice, and soupy consistency...The
traditional S. Indian kari does not have a fixed set of ingredients, by a
typical mixture was and remains the following, all roasted and ground to a
powder: kari patta (curry leaf), coriander, cumin, and mustard seeds, red
and black pepper, fenugreek, tumeric; and less certainly cinnamon, cloves,
cardamom."
---The Oxford Companion to Food, Alan Davidson [Oxford University
Press:Oxford] 1999 (p. 235-6)
Whereas elsewhere, *even* on the same web page, there is more, and contrary:
"Curry is from the Tamil word "kari", meaning stew. Tamil is one of the most
widely spoken languages of the whole vast Indian subcontinent. An Indian
curry is indeed made rather like a stew. It may be of meat, fish, or
vegetables, and herbs and spices are added; they are mixed together and
ground to a powder which itself eventually became known as "curry."
Originally every region and every family had its own secret [curry] formula.
At the end of the nineteenth century, however, ready-prepared curry powder
could be found for sale in Indian towns. Then, so the tale goes, an
Englishman named Sharwood was dining with the Maharaja of Madras, who
mentioned to him the shop kept by a famous master maker of curry powder
called Vencatachellum. The Englishman visited it and obtained the secret of
Madras curry powder, a mixture of saffron, tumeric, cumin, Kerala coriander
and a selection of Orissa chillies..."
---History of Food, Maguelonne Toussaint-Samat [Barnes & Noble:New York]
1992 (p. 498-9)
(http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodfaq1.html#curry)
In fact I believe I counted at least 5 differing definitions LOL!
Shaun aRe
J
> That would of course depend, on which of the many supposed 'authoritative'
> etymologies you dig through and buy into.
I think it depends on preparation. When I make curry (the dish), I use
curry (the powder) to make a curry sauce. I saute ginger, garlic, onion
and the curry powder in olive oil and butter, add flour and make a blonde roux,
add chicken stock, simmer, season, and finish with yogurt. I then pour this
over a mix of cooked califlower, potatotes, peppers, onions, and/or chicken.
My curry sauce is based on French white sauce.
J
Nancy Young
arrived in the mail a day or so ago. Not only is the
recipe replete with cream, but they also call it a
sauce.
Later, they did deep dish apple pie ... and addressed
the issue of the dome crust! Something about cooking
the apples first, I'll be more specific if anyone cares.
Youns are on the same wavelength as CI!
nancy
sf
> Next time try an old Italian trick ( I say that because my Italian
> Step-grandmother used to do this) - throw 2 or 3 bay leaves into the pasta
> water when cold. Obviously throw them away after the pasta is cooked. With
> delicate preparations this will give the pasts itself a delightful fragrance and
> very very slight flavor.
>
Great idea, thanks!
> BTW I never eat Alfredo out unless at a known Italian place.
Does this sound like I hate Italian food, because I don't... I don't
order anything that has tomato sauce on it (most are too bland and I
enjoy eating too much to chance it) and never order Alfredo when in
Italian restaurants (once was enough for me). AND I don't think my
favorite pizza palace is an Italian restaurant - even if it is owned
by an Italian (accent and all).
Hey, Dimitri, Pandora, Vilco and all persons who cook Italian... have
you ever heard of lasagne that's basically a huge layer of ricotta
(probably held with egg)? The old owner made his that way (one noodle
was wrapped around the ricotta and meat sauce over)... but the recipe
left with him. The current owner's lasagne is more traditional and
layered. It's good, but it's not the "other" one.
Pandora
"sf" <s...@gmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:qqave156rfpfae6ai...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:23:44 GMT, Dimitri wrote:
>
>> Next time try an old Italian trick ( I say that because my Italian
>> Step-grandmother used to do this) - throw 2 or 3 bay leaves into the
>> pasta
>> water when cold. Obviously throw them away after the pasta is cooked.
>> With
>> delicate preparations this will give the pasts itself a delightful
>> fragrance and
>> very very slight flavor.
>>
> Great idea, thanks!
>
>> BTW I never eat Alfredo out unless at a known Italian place.
>
> Does this sound like I hate Italian food, because I don't... I don't
> order anything that has tomato sauce on it (most are too bland and I
> enjoy eating too much to chance it) and never order Alfredo when in
> Italian restaurants (once was enough for me). AND I don't think my
> favorite pizza palace is an Italian restaurant - even if it is owned
> by an Italian (accent and all).
>
> Hey, Dimitri, Pandora, Vilco and all persons who cook Italian... have
> you ever heard of lasagne that's basically a huge layer of ricotta
> (probably held with egg)?
I know that some neapolitans do lasagne with ricotta.
many years ago my mother cooked lasagne like that, but only in the winter
because is a very heavy dish!
You make a layer of pasta, ragů sauce, reggiano, mozzarella; then another
layer like this; and another....till 4-5 layers.
i don't like lasagne like this.
The old owner made his that way (one noodle
> was wrapped around the ricotta and meat sauce over)...
I don't understand. Why you say noodles if you have asked for lasagne?
but the recipe
> left with him. The current owner's lasagne is more traditional and
> layered. It's good, but it's not the "other" one.
can you explain what you mean for owner's? Thank you
Pandora
>
Bob (this one)
> On 2005-08-02, Bob (this one) <B...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I say that merely calling
>>it a sauce doesn't mean that it is.
>
> Unless you're French.
...and have a clear series of definitions rather than merely a label on
a bottle designed by a marketing department.
What you absolutely cannot grasp is that cooking words are technical
terms. Well, to everybody but you. You seem to think that your ignorant
perspective is somehow more valuable or definitive than the ones of
well-trained, widely experienced professionals. And the fact that you
haven't offered *anything even like a definition* demonstrates the
bankruptcy of your view.
It has come down to your endlessly repeated "anything I say is a sauce,
is a sauce" with no rationale for the pronouncement. Couple that with
your absolutely brilliant "and the French don't know anything about
cooking" mind-fart and the true Nobel-worthy depth of your culinary
knowledge runs down your leg.
>>Here's a piece of a cooking course I wrote some years back. It's based
>>on the French approaches......
>
> French definitions of French sauces used in French cooking. Yeah, we
> read the book and saw the tv show. Amazing how a Frenchman can puree
> a vegetable and it's a sauce, but not a Mexican or a granny from
> Toledo. Them Asians cook some good grub, but without a dollop of
> mother sauce, how good can it be. We get it now, Bob.
If only you did. Your sarcasm only serves to show your starved
information package. Thus far, everything you've offered is *against* a
definition. And note, no one has said that other culinary approaches are
inferior, merely different. Different ingredients, different techniques.
Different end products. Different nomenclature. Different criteria. That
seems to have whooooshed past you like so much else.
If *anyone* purees a vegetable and uses it that same way, it's a sauce.
If a Frenchman puts ketchup on fries, it's still not a sauce. Apparently
you neither read the book (not just looked at the pictures) nor the TV
show (put the remote down and try, try very hard, to follow a single
line of reasoning to the end) where the *reasoning* behind the
definitions accrue. You keep wanting to tie "sauce" to people rather
than culinary issues. To cultures. To locations. It's a kitchen term to
describe a kitchen product. It matter not at all where it's done. Or who
does it. It's a name for a product.
Your insistence on trying to peddle these spurious observations while
never offering any definitions of what these sauces you so revere are is
just so much bluster from you. Thus far, you've said that bottled
condiments are sauces because it says so on the label. That liquids in a
pan after cooking *anything* are sauces. That *any* thickened liquid is
a sauce. That butter and grated parmesan cheese sprinkled on pasta is a
sauce. That a splash of wine into a saute pan is a sauce. That a
tablespoon of yogurt added at the end of cooking is a sauce. It becomes
rather hard to see what isn't a sauce with these tortured efforts to
make *everything not solid* a sauce for you. I'd like a bowl of
chicken-noodle sauce, please. Oh, wait. Change that to New England Clam
Chowder sauce.
> Only you and
> the French can say what a sauce is.
Um, close. Only I (and literally hundreds of thousands, maybe millions
of other professionals) and the French *have said* what a sauce is, with
some disagreements and qualifications, but nothing like the demolition
of guidelines like you're trying to foist here. No other cuisine or
culture has defined them with anything approaching that same rigor
because no other culture uses them like that unless there has been a
French influence.
And do note that the word "sauce" is, um, French. It would seem that the
guys who began and developed the concept get at least a say in what it
means. And what it doesn't mean.
> Whew, I'm glad we got that
> straightened out.
<LOL> Right. <Whew> Go tell your mommy that you need to be changed.
> You can come down from the mount, now.
To join you in that mucky, amorphous mind-view? <LOL> That'll happen.
So, Sparky, I offered my definitions. And even though they zoomed right
over your head, how about offer *your definitions* now? Just put them
right here ________ . Should be more than enough room for you to write
your entire expansive understanding.
Pastorio
pjjehg
"sf" wrote...
>
> Hey, Dimitri, Pandora, Vilco and all persons who cook Italian... have
> you ever heard of lasagne that's basically a huge layer of ricotta
> (probably held with egg)? The old owner made his that way (one noodle
> was wrapped around the ricotta and meat sauce over)... but the recipe
> left with him. The current owner's lasagne is more traditional and
> layered. It's good, but it's not the "other" one.
>
Would this work (using the appropriate amount of fresh parsley)?
Pam
3 c ricotta
3/4 c parmesan cheese
2 Tbsp dry parsley
2 eggs, beaten
2 tsp salt
1/2 tsp pepper
Combine