Oklahoma tornedo

[Ophelia]

We are getting terrifying reports from Oklahoma:(( Poor devils;(((((((

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[Pete C.]

Ophelia wrote:
>
> We are getting terrifying reports from Oklahoma:(( Poor devils;(((((((

It seems to be even worse than the EF5 they got in 1999, EF5+ it seems.
When they rebuild this time they need to look at building underground
and all reinforced concrete since it's likely to happen again at some
point. They need to also ensure that all schools and municipal buildings
are equipped with storm shelters, anything else is negligence since it
is in tornado alley.

[Julie Bove]

"Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote in message
news:b016mv...@mid.individual.net...

> We are getting terrifying reports from Oklahoma:(( Poor devils;(((((((

Yes it is very bad! Fortunately my relatives were spared but my cousin's
in-laws have a damaged house. They have to stay in it for fear of looting.

[Julie Bove]

"Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote in message
news:519b73cf$0$9616$a826...@newsreader.readnews.com...

Yes. They should have done that to begin with. I lived in tornado area.
It was frightening.

[jmcquown]

It's a sad commentary when people have to worry about being robbed after
their home is damaged. But I heard on the news the authorities weren't
even letting owners in to view damage to their property unless they got
a special permit.

Jill

[jmcquown]

This is true, but undoubtedly the schools, etc. were built well before
construction codes called for special reinforcement.

I still remember them conducting tornado drills when I was in high
school in Memphis. (This was a new school, still partially under
construction in 1973.) We had to go to the lowest level of the school
(yes, it was below ground) and line up along the walls, sitting,
covering our heads. Sort of like the crash position on an airplane.
I'm not sure what good any of that would have done. Had the school been
hit, three levels above would have crashed down over our heads. Then
they'd have been looking for people buried under the rubble. You can
try, but you can't really thwart an F5 tornado.

Jill

[Julie Bove]

"jmcquown" <j_mc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:b01enk...@mid.individual.net...

From what I was told, they hadn't left the property. Most houses in tornado
prone areas have storm cellars.

[jmcquown]

On 5/21/2013 8:10 AM, Ophelia wrote:
> We are getting terrifying reports from Oklahoma:(( Poor devils;(((((((
>

Yes, it's truly horrific. The report from the National Weather Service
says: "The tornado touched down at 2:56 p.m., 16 minutes after the first
warning went out, and traveled for 20 miles, said Keli Pirtle, a
spokeswoman for the National Weather Service in Norman, Okla. It was on
the ground for 40 minutes, she said."

I've only had two brief experiences with tornados in my life (when I
lived in Tennessee). Forty minutes seems like a heck of a long time for
a tornado to stay on the ground. Allegedly it cut a swath 2 miles wide
and travelled over 30 miles on the ground. It's a tragic situation. My
heart goes out to them.

Jill

[sf]

I used to think so too, but apparently that's not the case anymore.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

[zxcvbob]

Ophelia wrote:
> We are getting terrifying reports from Oklahoma:(( Poor devils;(((((((
>

A repeat of the 1999 storm, but this one killed more people. Only an
EF4 ("only") but it was 2 miles wide and stayed on the ground a long time.

Bob

[Janet Bostwick]

It's getting better with more tornados (they are pretty expensive),
but apparently a problem with Moore is the red clay soil is not very
stable for underground structures. (as heard on MSNBC)
Janet US

[Ophelia]

"Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote in message
news:b016mv...@mid.individual.net...

I see there are more tornados forecast for tonight:(((
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[Gary]

Ophelia wrote:
>
> "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote in message
> news:b016mv...@mid.individual.net...
>
> I see there are more tornados forecast for tonight:(((

Even in Scotland? arrghh! ;)

G.

[Ophelia]

"Gary" <g.ma...@att.net> wrote in message news:519BB76F...@att.net...

Did you notice the subject line ?

We are getting a lot of reports direct from US.

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[Nunya Bidnits]

Many houses in that area have safe rooms but those may not stand up to a
direct hit from an F4 or F5, but then not much stands up to 200+ mph winds
and large debris moving at similar speeds. However the soil there is simply
to hard to economically build basement foundations.

MSNBC was running live coverage from their OK City affiliate starting before
the tornado hit populated areas. It was huge but slow moving. They were
telling people you have about 30 minutes, if you do not have underground
shelter, get out of the area, because you probably won't survive this if
you're above ground. There couldn't have been much better warning but again,
it was a direct hit.

MartyB

[Nunya Bidnits]

It may be graded up to an F5 pending verification. Scientists actually go
out and quantify the damage and how much force was necessary to cause it in
terms of wind speed, and that calculation is what ultimately determines the
final grade.

MartyB

[Nunya Bidnits]

Ophelia <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote:
> We are getting terrifying reports from Oklahoma:(( Poor
> devils;(((((((
> --

My nephew is a meteorologist, with a doctorate, at the University of
Oklahoma. He created mathematical predictive modeling to use radar data to
more accurately predict tornado locations. He lives in Norman which is close
by the tornado path. He was out chasing the one that hit Moore yesterday. My
brother called to see if he was all right and got a 15 second conversation,
"yeah, I'm fine, we're chasing this storm and I'm navigating the truck,
gotta go".

MartyB

[Ophelia]

"Nunya Bidnits" <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in message
news:kngdps$ihd$1...@dont-email.me...

Oh my lord ... I have seen film of the people who do that:( Scary or
what???


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[Betsy D]

> On 5/21/2013 10:25 AM, Julie Bove
wrote:

> From what I was told, they hadn't left
> the property. Most houses in tornado
> prone areas have storm cellars.

As a 40+ year resident of North Texas (mainly Wichita Falls and Fort
Worth), I can tell you that is NOT true.! Some homes have cellars, but
definitely not most!

[sf]

On Tue, 21 May 2013 11:01:27 -0600, Janet Bostwick
<nos...@cableone.net> wrote:

> It's getting better with more tornados (they are pretty expensive),
> but apparently a problem with Moore is the red clay soil is not very
> stable for underground structures. (as heard on MSNBC)

I was only listening to MSNBC with half an ear (as they say) on a TV
that I can't rewind, so I thought they said something about the ground
being hard (I heard "bedrock") and digging a basement being cost
prohibitive. Seems like this tornado should give them some
perspective on that part of it and engineering should take care of the
rest.

[Paul M. Cook]

"Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote in message
news:b016mv...@mid.individual.net...

> We are getting terrifying reports from Oklahoma:(( Poor devils;(((((((
>

Four tornadoes in 15 years means they should rebuild someplace else.

[Julie Bove]

"sf" <s...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:2u6np8150rui8v3mc...@4ax.com...

Well they did when I lived in KS. But I haven't been there since the 70's
so don't know.

[Julie Bove]

"Janet Bostwick" <nos...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:00anp85dinm3ad004...@4ax.com...

That's a problem for most of OK.

[Julie Bove]

"Betsy D" <EIM...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:12364-519...@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net...

Well when I lived in Wichita, the houses there had them. They were scary
places though. Ours was accessed through a trap door in my parent's bedroom
closet. It was a very small space and not deep enough to stand up in.

[z z]

God's terrible swift sword is what I am always reminded of.

I have had close escapes of two tornadoes-I was a little girl and my
family of 5 was camping. We left for home in our tiny station wagon and
Dad had to pull off the road midafternoon because it was pitch black in
the storm. We kids were ordered to get down on the floor of the car in
front of the back seat-no small feat for 3 scared children. When it
lightened enough to move on we drove thru a small town that had been
decimated by the tornado. What I remember most is driving past a big old
brown brick school building and looking at the basketball hoop hanging
high up in the air in the old gymnasium-some of the walls were gone.
When we reached our town we had to drive down the sidewalk to our
home-all the big old trees were down (plus live wires everywhere.) There
were reports of single pieces of straw impaling solid wood poles.

Second time was just 3yrs ago. I threw the cat in the carrier and went
downstairs to the door while the sirens wailed, and watched the weather
go by. Learned after the storm passed that a tornado went past me just 3
blocks south of me in our downtown area. Seems like the entire town then
walked downtown to "sight see" including me. That storm stripped all of
the light green buds off all of the branches of relatively small young
trees yet did not harm those trees in any other way! (Older trees of
course didnt fare as well.) The sidewalks were coated with tree buds and
it was like walking on a green felt carpet! Then of course I marveled at
the stupidity of young people (college town) who amidst broken glass
everywhere downtown were sightseeing in their rubber flipflops and many
decided to take their dogs on leashes with them. I passed two young
giggly girls who were carrying the recreation center sign which had
blown away from where it hung over the building :-)

Sunday night our sirens went off again and I have to admit I have become
desensitized because I didnt move an inch. Siren went off, power failed,
tv/surge protector/apc made popping noises, power clicked back on, and
suddenly it was as though God hurled a bucket of gravel at my picture
window. Then it was over that quick.

There goes everyone but for the grace of God.

[Pete C.]

jmcquown wrote:
>
> On 5/21/2013 9:17 AM, Pete C. wrote:
> >
> > Ophelia wrote:
> >>
> >> We are getting terrifying reports from Oklahoma:(( Poor devils;(((((((
> >
> > It seems to be even worse than the EF5 they got in 1999, EF5+ it seems.
> > When they rebuild this time they need to look at building underground
> > and all reinforced concrete since it's likely to happen again at some
> > point. They need to also ensure that all schools and municipal buildings
> > are equipped with storm shelters, anything else is negligence since it
> > is in tornado alley.
> >
> This is true, but undoubtedly the schools, etc. were built well before
> construction codes called for special reinforcement.

Remember they had an EF5 in 1999, a decade plus to upgrade existing
schools and of course any that had to be rebuild after that first
tornado.

>
> I still remember them conducting tornado drills when I was in high
> school in Memphis. (This was a new school, still partially under
> construction in 1973.) We had to go to the lowest level of the school
> (yes, it was below ground) and line up along the walls, sitting,
> covering our heads. Sort of like the crash position on an airplane.
> I'm not sure what good any of that would have done. Had the school been
> hit, three levels above would have crashed down over our heads. Then
> they'd have been looking for people buried under the rubble. You can
> try, but you can't really thwart an F5 tornado.

It is very, very possibly to thwart an EF5 tornado. Reinforced concrete
is all that is needed and it isn't that expensive. Any windowless room
in the building i.e. bathrooms make ideal candidates for such
reinforcing. If the entryway is in a labrynth like many airport
bathrooms, you don't even need hardened doors since tornado launched
missiles don't turn corners well. Certainly at tornado alley airports
the bathrooms are typically hardened and marked as storm shelters.

[Brooklyn1]

"Pete C." wrote:

>jmcquown wrote:
>>
>> I still remember them conducting tornado drills when I was in high
>> school in Memphis. (This was a new school, still partially under
>> construction in 1973.) We had to go to the lowest level of the school
>> (yes, it was below ground) and line up along the walls, sitting,
>> covering our heads. Sort of like the crash position on an airplane.
>> I'm not sure what good any of that would have done. Had the school been
>> hit, three levels above would have crashed down over our heads. Then
>> they'd have been looking for people buried under the rubble. You can
>> try, but you can't really thwart an F5 tornado.
>
>It is very, very possibly to thwart an EF5 tornado. Reinforced concrete
>is all that is needed and it isn't that expensive. Any windowless room
>in the building i.e. bathrooms make ideal candidates for such
>reinforcing.

Why not simply mandate all inhabited buildings have basements, problem
solved. I honestly can't fathom why people opt to live on a concrete
slab... to me that's like being homeless... living in a cardboard box
out on the sidewalk.

[Nunya Bidnits]

"Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote in message
news:b016mv...@mid.individual.net...

> We are getting terrifying reports from Oklahoma:(( Poor devils;(((((((
>

> --
> --
> http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

It is now officially an F5 creating winds in excess of 210 mph.

Death toll is now 24, however that is considerably lower than in other
tornados of similar size which made direct hits on populated areas. The
early warning technology in that area is state of the art, and apparently it
helped, especially considering the large number of structures which do not
have basements in that area.

MartyB

[jmcquown]

On 5/22/2013 11:38 AM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
>
> Why not simply mandate all inhabited buildings have basements, problem
> solved. I honestly can't fathom why people opt to live on a concrete
> slab... to me that's like being homeless... living in a cardboard box
> out on the sidewalk.
>

Oh come on. You can't mandate everyone has to have basements. In some
places the soil simply won't allow for it. I haven't ever lived in a
home in the Southern US that had a basement.

Jill

[Ophelia]

"Nunya Bidnits" <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in message

news:knipau$au6$1...@dont-email.me...

:(

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[Nunya Bidnits]

"Brooklyn1" <grave...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:68ppp893dehlh8d6g...@4ax.com...

You're asking too much. Safe rooms, yes. Basements in houses built on hard
rock ground? Do you think the average family can afford the price of
excavating a foundation? You should learn a little about the area you are
mindlessly criticizing, as usual. The hard earth trumps your BS.

I expect there will be more code requiring safe rooms. The school which was
hit the hardest is an older structure but newer schools have them. OK
officials explained that it is up to local code administrations and school
districts to determine what is required in each area. However there may be
an effort to legislate such structures on a larger countywide or statewide
level, at least for public structures.

MartyB

[Pete C.]

In the frozen northeast you have to put the foundation walls so far down
to get below the frost line anyway that the extra cost to do a full
basement is minimal. In the south the frost line is very shallow so the
added cost for a basement is significant. Add to that the high water
tables and expansive soil issues in many area which further add to the
cost of a basement and it becomes a very expensive proposition.

Pre-fab tornado shelters are readily available for ~$2k or so and an
in-house safe room can cost similar if you DIY it from the FEMA 320 /
Texas Tech plans.

[Pete C.]

lucreti...@fl.it wrote:

>
> On Wed, 22 May 2013 11:38:54 -0400, Brooklyn1
> <grave...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >Why not simply mandate all inhabited buildings have basements, problem
> >solved. I honestly can't fathom why people opt to live on a concrete
> >slab... to me that's like being homeless... living in a cardboard box
> >out on the sidewalk.
>

> I saw one couple with kids come up out of an undergroud concrete
> shelter, similar to war time ones in the UK. If I lived in that area,
> I think I would want one of those.

Those type of "drop-in" shelters are around $2k if you have the space to
install one. Not at all an unreasonable cost, but most people get caught
up spending more than they make on a bigger house and other "bling" and
don't think of such essential items.

[Janet Bostwick]

On Wed, 22 May 2013 11:38:54 -0400, Brooklyn1
<grave...@verizon.net> wrote:

In some places you would have to use dynamite to make a hole.
Janet US

[Pico Rico]

"Janet Bostwick" <nos...@cableone.net> wrote in message

news:m5gqp8hclgdefgibt...@4ax.com...

so, use dynamite or you are on your own when this foreseeable disaster
strikes.

[Julie Bove]

"Brooklyn1" <grave...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:68ppp893dehlh8d6g...@4ax.com...

> Why not simply mandate all inhabited buildings have basements, problem
> solved. I honestly can't fathom why people opt to live on a concrete
> slab... to me that's like being homeless... living in a cardboard box
> out on the sidewalk.

How could they possibly? With the type of soil they have there and often
the flat land, it is next to impossible to put a basement. A storm cellar
is different. It is generally quite shallow and small. Just enough space
for the family and maybe some neighbors to hunker down in until the storm
has passed.

[Julie Bove]

"jmcquown" <j_mc...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:b048fp...@mid.individual.net...

Correct!

[jmcquown]

Yep, and in some places, too close to sea level to make digging a hole
practical. I live on one of a string of islands, only about 49 feet
above sea level. It wouldn't make any sense to have a basement in this
area unless you're fond of flooding and sump pumps.

Jill

[jmcquown]

On 5/22/2013 12:10 PM, Nunya Bidnits wrote:
>
> "Brooklyn1" <grave...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:68ppp893dehlh8d6g...@4ax.com...
>> "Pete C." wrote:
>>> jmcquown wrote:
>>>>
>>>> they'd have been looking for people buried under the rubble. You can
>>>> try, but you can't really thwart an F5 tornado.
>>>
>>> It is very, very possibly to thwart an EF5 tornado. Reinforced concrete
>>> is all that is needed and it isn't that expensive. Any windowless room
>>> in the building i.e. bathrooms make ideal candidates for such
>>> reinforcing.
>>
>> Why not simply mandate all inhabited buildings have basements, problem
>> solved. I honestly can't fathom why people opt to live on a concrete
>> slab... to me that's like being homeless... living in a cardboard box
>> out on the sidewalk.
>
> You're asking too much. Safe rooms, yes. Basements in houses built on
> hard rock ground? Do you think the average family can afford the price
> of excavating a foundation? You should learn a little about the area you
> are mindlessly criticizing, as usual. The hard earth trumps your BS.
>
> I expect there will be more code requiring safe rooms. The school which
> was hit the hardest is an older structure but newer schools have them.
>

> MartyB

I learned many years ago, the safest room in the house is a bathroom
*not* located on an outside wall and without windows. The reason is
there are pipes running through the walls which reiforce the structure.
I remember hunkering down in the bathtub with a pillow (and the
weather radio) on more than one occasion. The bathroom was the "safe
room". Even my cat was smart enough to come out from under the bed and
hunker down between the toilet and the tub. :)

Jill

[Nunya Bidnits]

lucreti...@fl.it wrote:

> Most families today seem to have two vehicles, so one vehicle and one
> shelter would cost less.

And would possibly guarantee that someone doesn't have the opportunity to
just flee the area. I can't see not having a needed car because of a $2k
shelter. Cars cost a lot more than that. If necessary one could just buy a
less expensive car.

Normally they don't advise running from a tornado but in this case they knew
it was coming and that it was huge, and they were telling people on radio
and television that if you couldn't get below ground to get out or you
probably wouldn't survive what is coming. Chalk that kind of warning up to
the superior weather technology in that area. Other tornados of that size
which scored direct hits on populated areas have claimed many more lives
than in Moore.

MartyB

[Nunya Bidnits]

That's problematic. You can't just be blasting away in populated areas.
Either it gets done when the subdivision is built, or forget it. Heavily
reinforced safe rooms are better alternatives.

[Bryan]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:37:15 PM UTC-5, lucreti...@fl.it wrote:
> On Wed, 22 May 2013 11:38:54 -0400, Brooklyn1
>
> <grave...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> >
>

> >Why not simply mandate all inhabited buildings have basements, problem
>
> >solved. I honestly can't fathom why people opt to live on a concrete
>
> >slab... to me that's like being homeless... living in a cardboard box
>
> >out on the sidewalk.
>
>
>

> I saw one couple with kids come up out of an undergroud concrete
>
> shelter, similar to war time ones in the UK. If I lived in that area,
>
> I think I would want one of those.

It costs a lot to have a hole blasted 7 or 8 feet down into solid rock, which is what you'd have to do there.

--Bryan

[Brooklyn1]

"Pete C." wrote:
>Brooklyn1 wrote:
>> "Pete C." wrote:
>> >jmcquown wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I still remember them conducting tornado drills when I was in high
>> >> school in Memphis. (This was a new school, still partially under
>> >> construction in 1973.) We had to go to the lowest level of the school
>> >> (yes, it was below ground) and line up along the walls, sitting,
>> >> covering our heads. Sort of like the crash position on an airplane.
>> >> I'm not sure what good any of that would have done. Had the school been
>> >> hit, three levels above would have crashed down over our heads. Then
>> >> they'd have been looking for people buried under the rubble. You can
>> >> try, but you can't really thwart an F5 tornado.
>> >
>> >It is very, very possibly to thwart an EF5 tornado. Reinforced concrete
>> >is all that is needed and it isn't that expensive. Any windowless room
>> >in the building i.e. bathrooms make ideal candidates for such
>> >reinforcing.
>>
>> Why not simply mandate all inhabited buildings have basements, problem
>> solved. I honestly can't fathom why people opt to live on a concrete
>> slab... to me that's like being homeless... living in a cardboard box
>> out on the sidewalk.
>
>In the frozen northeast you have to put the foundation walls so far down
>to get below the frost line

That's just not true, only the footings need to be below the frost
line, a mere 3'. And many folks have partial basements, and usually
with crawl spaces over additions... it's rare to find living space on
a slab... maybe a converted garage. Even many barns have basements.

>anyway that the extra cost to do a full basement is minimal.

True, a full basement costs about 10% of the total house cost... and
the typical colonial (2 stories) would have a basement half the sq
footage of a ranch of equal sq footage... and again, many save costs
by installing a partial basement. And folks are talking like there
are no po' folk in the north east. I read RE ads for western
states... lots of mega mansions costing millions with no basement...
built by morons with more dollars than brain cells.

>In the south the frost line is very shallow so the
>added cost for a basement is significant.

That makes no sense... the depth of the frost line has no bearing
whatsoever on the cost of a basement.

And there are plenty of houses in the north east that are cited over
huge granite boulders... the foundation is placed directly on the rock
with earth bulldozed up around the foundation to form a berm... it
actually costs less to bulldoze surrounding earth than to install a
footing... the solid rock makes a far superior footing.

[Pete C.]

That's the point, up there you need deep footings anyway so you have a
crawl space at a minimum and usually a full basement since it only
requires a few extra feet of foundation wall over the minimum.

>
> >anyway that the extra cost to do a full basement is minimal.
>
> True, a full basement costs about 10% of the total house cost... and
> the typical colonial (2 stories) would have a basement half the sq
> footage of a ranch of equal sq footage... and again, many save costs
> by installing a partial basement. And folks are talking like there
> are no po' folk in the north east. I read RE ads for western
> states... lots of mega mansions costing millions with no basement...
> built by morons with more dollars than brain cells.
>
> >In the south the frost line is very shallow so the
> >added cost for a basement is significant.
>
> That makes no sense... the depth of the frost line has no bearing
> whatsoever on the cost of a basement.

Certainly it does. Here in TX the frost line is so shallow that a slab
foundation with thickened edges is all that is necessary to support even
a multi-story house. To add a basement means 7+ feet of excavation, 7+
feet of concrete foundation walls, waterproofing and then since the slab
is now the basement floor it requires framing a full first floor of
joists and sub floor. That is a massive increase in cost over
slab-on-grade where the slab is the first floor.

[Julie Bove]

<lucreti...@fl.it> wrote in message
news:5g0qp89g9h3kemets...@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 22 May 2013 11:38:54 -0400, Brooklyn1
> <grave...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>

>>Why not simply mandate all inhabited buildings have basements, problem
>>solved. I honestly can't fathom why people opt to live on a concrete
>>slab... to me that's like being homeless... living in a cardboard box
>>out on the sidewalk.
>

> I saw one couple with kids come up out of an undergroud concrete
> shelter, similar to war time ones in the UK. If I lived in that area,
> I think I would want one of those.

That is generally what they do have because they *can't* have a basement.
When I lived in Wichita, I didn't even know what a basement was because they
were so uncommon. I had never seen one before. The first one I ever saw
was in our house in WA. And these days they are not common in new
construction either. I had a construction guy tell me that they only put
them in now if the layout of the land warranted it.

My parents have had nothing but trouble with their basement. They have a
sump pump and they always have to do stuff with that. But they still get
flooding during a heavy rain or following a snow storm as the snow melts.

[Julie Bove]

"Brooklyn1" <grave...@verizon.net> wrote in message

news:67rqp85kel6h0a4p1...@4ax.com...

> That makes no sense... the depth of the frost line has no bearing
> whatsoever on the cost of a basement.
>
> And there are plenty of houses in the north east that are cited over
> huge granite boulders... the foundation is placed directly on the rock
> with earth bulldozed up around the foundation to form a berm... it
> actually costs less to bulldoze surrounding earth than to install a
> footing... the solid rock makes a far superior footing.

I don't know about the frost line but I do know that the hard clay soil that
they have in OK and KS makes the earth somewhat unstable and it's very hard
to dig in. I can recall being frightened of the deep cracks that would form
in the dry dirt during the summer. I was afraid that they would just keep
getting bigger and bigger and I'd fall in.

I would also think that if they did put a basement in, it would be very
prone to flooding because of the way the soil is there and because it is so
dry. When soil is very dry like that, the rain does not seep in like it
would when it is moist. Instead it goes sideways.

[Julie Bove]

<lucreti...@fl.it> wrote in message
news:ai6qp89siurgs5i0i...@4ax.com...

> Most families today seem to have two vehicles, so one vehicle and one
> shelter would cost less.

One vehicle is also not feasible for most families these days either. Lots
of us live in the suburbs with no good bus lines and either no taxis or very
expensive ones. If both people work or if there are kids in the house,
another vehicle is needed.

[Julie Bove]

"Nunya Bidnits" <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in message

news:knjlsn$d82$1...@dont-email.me...

> And would possibly guarantee that someone doesn't have the opportunity to
> just flee the area. I can't see not having a needed car because of a $2k
> shelter. Cars cost a lot more than that. If necessary one could just buy a
> less expensive car.
>
> Normally they don't advise running from a tornado but in this case they
> knew it was coming and that it was huge, and they were telling people on
> radio and television that if you couldn't get below ground to get out or
> you probably wouldn't survive what is coming. Chalk that kind of warning
> up to the superior weather technology in that area. Other tornados of that
> size which scored direct hits on populated areas have claimed many more
> lives than in Moore.

They said they only had 16 minutes warning on this one. That's not much
time! When I was a kid, I can remember the warnings coming several hours
ahead of time. Thankfully we never did have to go to our storm cellar, but
as soon as a warning struck, my mom or dad would put some food down there
and make sure that we had things like blankets, a radio and a flashlight. I
think they did keep stuff down there all the time or at least close by. The
access was a trap door in the bottom of their closet.

[Cheryl]

On 5/21/2013 11:04 AM, jmcquown wrote:

> Yes, it's truly horrific. The report from the National Weather Service
> says: "The tornado touched down at 2:56 p.m., 16 minutes after the first
> warning went out, and traveled for 20 miles, said Keli Pirtle, a
> spokeswoman for the National Weather Service in Norman, Okla. It was on
> the ground for 40 minutes, she said."
>
> I've only had two brief experiences with tornados in my life (when I
> lived in Tennessee). Forty minutes seems like a heck of a long time for
> a tornado to stay on the ground. Allegedly it cut a swath 2 miles wide
> and travelled over 30 miles on the ground. It's a tragic situation. My
> heart goes out to them.
>
> Jill

Because of where OK is situated between warm moist air from the Gulf,
and cooler dryer air from CA direction, they are prone to these storms.
My first thought was why wasn't the school evacuated in time because I
heard it moved slowly. Of course I have no idea how these big ones work
so my thoughts were only out of grief.

--
CAPSLOCK�Preventing Login Since 1980.

[Julie Bove]

"Cheryl" <jlhs...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:519dab6f$0$43929$c3e8da3$9dec...@news.astraweb.com...

I heard that they only had 16 minutes warning.

[Pete C.]

lucreti...@fl.it wrote:

> Well I wonder how we did it ? Three kids, both of us working and one
> vehicle ?
>
> IMO more kids walking to school would help greatly with child obesity!
> Fewer 'playdates' too, let the kids run.

Yea, and more child abductions. The days of letting kids walk to school
are over in most places.

[Julie Bove]

<lucreti...@fl.it> wrote in message
news:oesrp8lvedutdhqjq...@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 22 May 2013 19:56:16 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> <juli...@frontier.com> wrote:
>
>>

> Well I wonder how we did it ? Three kids, both of us working and one
> vehicle ?
>
> IMO more kids walking to school would help greatly with child obesity!
> Fewer 'playdates' too, let the kids run.

It is no longer safe for most kids to walk to school. Here they are only
allowed to do it if they live within a few blocks of the school. My
daughter's school is sooo far away that it would take her well over an hour
to walk there and there would be no way she could walk that distance with
her heavy backpack on. Plus there are no sidewalks for a great part of the
walk. And not only no sidewalks but literally no room for anyone to walk
along that road. It's a narrow road and nothing but a some driveways and
trees on one side. Trees on the other.

We had one vehicle for a while when I was a kid and it truly sucked. My mom
didn't work either. You can do it if you work close enough together to
carpool or an arrange a carpool with someone else. Not everyone has that
option.

[Julie Bove]

"Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote in message
news:519dfe66$0$24664$a826...@newsreader.readnews.com...

>
> Yea, and more child abductions. The days of letting kids walk to school
> are over in most places.

Indeed! There was just a man with a gun the other day at my daughter's old
elementary school. They had to lockdown the school for a little while.
Don't know any more than that and didn't see it on the news.

[jmcquown]

On 5/23/2013 6:41 AM, lucreti...@fl.it wrote:
> On Wed, 22 May 2013 19:56:16 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> <juli...@frontier.com> wrote:
>
>>

> Well I wonder how we did it ? Three kids, both of us working and one
> vehicle ?
>
> IMO more kids walking to school would help greatly with child obesity!
> Fewer 'playdates' too, let the kids run.
>

My mom didn't work but we were a one-car family until I was a teenager,
after Dad retired from the Marine Corps. Somehow we managed to get to
school (yep, we walked to school in a lot of the places we lived). Mom
did the grocery shopping on weekends. When I was very little I took
(the seemingly obligatory) ballet/tap classes and somehow she managed to
get me there... probably on Saturday. She managed to get my brothers to
their Cub Scout meetings and archery classes, too.

It wasn't until I was hit by a car (while walking with friends down a
quiet suburban street) when I was about 14 they decided they needed a
second car. I wasn't badly hurt, but my knees were really scraped up.
Dad was off playing golf or something and Mom didn't have any way to
come get me. After I had to limp home, a second car suddenly seemed
like a good idea.

Jill

[Ophelia]

<lucreti...@fl.it> wrote in message
news:d73sp856e10d51hqu...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 23 May 2013 05:04:56 -0700, "Julie Bove"

> Has any child been abducted walking on the street in your area ?

I expect she will say no. I also expect she will say she wouldn't want her
child to be the first.

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

[Pete C.]

lucreti...@fl.it wrote:

> So my granddaughter was saying but when I asked her to tell me about a
> single child abducted by 'a man in a van grabbing her' - seems she
> couldn't come up with one.
>
> Life itself is a chance and the chance for any one child to be
> abducted is in the millions.

Numerous well publicized examples here in the US, as well as many
unsuccessful attempts. I wouldn't let my kids walk to school (or
elsewhere) alone in many areas.

[Gary]

jmcquown wrote:
>
> It wasn't until I was hit by a car (while walking with friends down a
> quiet suburban street) when I was about 14 they decided they needed a
> second car. I wasn't badly hurt, but my knees were really scraped up.
> Dad was off playing golf or something and Mom didn't have any way to

> come get me. After I had to limp home, a second car suddenly swerved
> over and hit me a second time.

Arrghh! That must have sucked! ;-o

G.

[Brooklyn1]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 07:37:29 -0300, lucreti...@fl.it wrote:

>On Wed, 22 May 2013 21:36:02 -0400, Brooklyn1
><grave...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>And there are plenty of houses in the north east that are cited over
>>huge granite boulders... the foundation is placed directly on the rock
>>with earth bulldozed up around the foundation to form a berm... it
>>actually costs less to bulldoze surrounding earth than to install a
>>footing... the solid rock makes a far superior footing.
>

>In my area

What area is that?

>we are on granite bedrock and I can only think of one house
>I know built slab on and they are not finding it easy to sell although
>they are positioned on a lovely lake and the house itself is very
>nice.

NYC is built on bedrock yet nearly every building has a basement, many
larger buildings have 2-3 story sub basements. Where I live upstate
NY it's very rare to find an abode built on a slab, those are usually
singlewide/doublewide trailers.. and still they're not directly on the
slab, they're set on a low concrete block wall that creates a crawl
space of about 4'... that air space is very important to healthful
living. I know of only one house about a half mile from me that's
been on the market over five years and won't sell because it's on a
slab, and it's on a lovely 20 acre property. A full basement adds
about 10% to construction costs but adds about 25% to resale value.
Living in a house on a slab is tantamount to living in a trailer...
even a trailer is better because it would be set on blocks so it's off
the slab... living directly on a slab is no different from living
directly on the ground, may as well pitch a tent.

Many of the older homes in New England have basements that are hand
dug with the house set on stacked field stone with no concrete,
they've been standing for hundreds of years since revolutionary times,
not fancy but still a full basement that offers protection from severe
inclement weather. In those days the basement contained a working
kitchen complete with a huge beehive oven that also heated the
house... there'd even be a ramp from outside leading down for
ill/pregnant livestock.

[Janet Bostwick]

On Wed, 22 May 2013 21:36:02 -0400, Brooklyn1
<grave...@verizon.net> wrote:

>"Pete C." wrote:
>>Brooklyn1 wrote:

snip

>And there are plenty of houses in the north east that are cited over
>huge granite boulders... the foundation is placed directly on the rock
>with earth bulldozed up around the foundation to form a berm... it
>actually costs less to bulldoze surrounding earth than to install a
>footing... the solid rock makes a far superior footing.

I agree it's ridiculous. The modern trend is to build a house without
a basement, build a garage, store all the basement stuff in the garage
and park the cars outside. In my dreams, I build a house with a full
basement, full attic and still have a garage. The nicest garage I
ever saw was a two level affair with broad stairs at the back leading
to upstairs storage. In this age of everyone having 'stuff', you'd
think houses would accommodate it
Janet US

[Julie Bove]

"jmcquown" <j_mc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:b06gcc...@mid.individual.net...

> My mom didn't work but we were a one-car family until I was a teenager,
> after Dad retired from the Marine Corps. Somehow we managed to get to
> school (yep, we walked to school in a lot of the places we lived). Mom
> did the grocery shopping on weekends. When I was very little I took (the
> seemingly obligatory) ballet/tap classes and somehow she managed to get me
> there... probably on Saturday. She managed to get my brothers to their
> Cub Scout meetings and archery classes, too.

We walked to school unless it was raining really hard and then my mom took
us. I think there was one bus at my elementary school. One or two at my
Jr. High and High School. We lived about a mile from the one school, closer
to two miles to the others. The bus didn't come to where we were. But for
some odd reason, I had friends who lived less than a block farther away and
they rode the bus. And another friend who lived about a block closer and
she rode the bus! I think it had to do with a certain busy street. We
lived on the other side of it so that we didn't have to walk on it. The
closer one lived *on* that street and the others would have had to cross it.

>
> It wasn't until I was hit by a car (while walking with friends down a
> quiet suburban street) when I was about 14 they decided they needed a
> second car. I wasn't badly hurt, but my knees were really scraped up. Dad
> was off playing golf or something and Mom didn't have any way to come get
> me. After I had to limp home, a second car suddenly seemed like a good
> idea.

When I lived in NY, there were constant reports of people being hit by cars.
Some were killed. My nephew's fianc�'s brother is recovering from being hit
by a car. And so is my friend's son's girlfriend. Both were crossing the
street when someone ran them down.

We also saw a bad thing a few weeks ago driving to my mom's house. A woman
with two small children was crossing the street. This was in an area with
the orange flags. More and more streets are doing that here but it doesn't
seem to help. You grab a flag and hold it out as you cross so that you are
more visible. Once on the other side, you put the flag back on that pole.
The woman had the signal to cross. When out of nowhere, this speeding car
whipped around the corner, nearly running them down. It happened sooo
quickly that at first, Angela said she thought the boy had tried to run.
But no. The mom had grabbed him quickly. She had the younger girl in her
one arm and was trying to hold the flag in the other. They all had to get
back several feet and quickly lest they be flattened. I watched as her eyes
grew huge and the color drained out of her face. It was very scary!
Fortunately there is a camera there so I hope they caught a shot of the
license plate of that car. Don't know that they would though since I think
the camera only comes on if they run the light.

[Julie Bove]

<lucreti...@fl.it> wrote in message
news:733sp8hhkso9tm9id...@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 23 May 2013 06:32:48 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net>
> wrote:
>
>>

> So my granddaughter was saying but when I asked her to tell me about a
> single child abducted by 'a man in a van grabbing her' - seems she
> couldn't come up with one.
>
> Life itself is a chance and the chance for any one child to be
> abducted is in the millions.

I guess she didn't hear of the three in Cleveland who just got out after
being held captive for years? Jaycee Dugar? I know there are others but
the names escape me.

My mom's cousin who is a year older than me had the exact scenario that you
just said. Except that she got away. She was riding her bike. The guy
came along and reached out of his van and tried to grab her. She fought him
off and ran home. This didn't happen on a school day so her parents were
home. They called the police, went back to the spot where it had happened
and her bike was still there.

[Julie Bove]

<lucreti...@fl.it> wrote in message
news:d73sp856e10d51hqu...@4ax.com...

> Has any child been abducted walking on the street in your area ?

No but countless cars have been hit. I heard the most awful noise one
night. Walked outside and found my husband's car smashed to smithereens.
Was hit by a drunk driver. Thankfully, the man's father saw his car the
following morning and made the man turn himself into the police.

Then the neighbor's van was totaled by a drunk driver. Angela and I were
both up then. We ran outside and witness the encounter. Idiot man was
trying to pay the woman not to call the police. He was very drunk. Sheriff
came right away and arrested the guy.

More recently, two cars were hit further down the street. Don't know the
story on that.

Then there was the time that the idiot young guy came whipping around the
curve at a high rate of speed. I had the gut reaction to pull over and that
was a good thing or he would have wiped us off the road. Angela and I
watched in horror as his car literally took flight, flying off the road,
over to the left, taking out some bushed and landing upside down then
rolling over in the neighbor's yard. He and his friend got out, stood in
the yard and laughed. I high tailed it home then sent my husband out to
call 911. I didn't want to tangle with them. For years there was a pending
court trial that I was supposed to go to but it never came about.

Then there was the stolen property found in our bushes.

Then the robberies to our house and other houses. Many of them. And to
cars.

Then there was the beer drop that we noticed. Seems they are doing that
now at the park across the street. Man drops beer by the sign. Teens pick
it up a minute or so later. Also known drug deals in the same park. We no
longer go to the park.

Neighbor down the street informed me that she thought she heard her dog
barking the other night. The same dog that sleeps outside and was fed bread
with sewing needles in it. Then not long after, her van windows were
smashed and the contents within were spread down the street. This time
instead of it being her dog barking it was the Sheriff's dog. She said four
cars were out there and they were arresting some guy. She didn't know why.

Oh and then there was the man with the gun at my daughter's old elementary
school. This just happened a few days ago.

There is also a website that lists were sex offenders live. Luckily we have
none on this street but there are some within a few blocks of here. And
they molested children.

This area is no longer a safe area. Used to be that it was. Used to be
farm country. But they overbuilt the area and the Sheriff said they simply
can not keep up with the crimes around here.

I'm sure there is a lot more that I didn't see and don't know. I don't know
all of the neighbors. I only know from the ones I have specifically spoken
to. And all were robbed at least once.

[Julie Bove]

"Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote in message
news:b06hhr...@mid.individual.net...

>> Has any child been abducted walking on the street in your area ?
>
> I expect she will say no. I also expect she will say she wouldn't want
> her child to be the first.

Yep. I used to get angry with her when she was little. She would play a
game with me on our way into a store or in a store by hiding from me to
freak me out.

I used to work in a store and we had a child abduction happen *in* the
store! Thankfully someone walked into the bathroom and saw what was going
on and reported it. The woman had snatched a little girl along with some
boy's clothing and was trying to dress her as a boy to take her out of the
store. I don't have any more particulars than that because I wasn't working
that day. But we were all made aware of it and were told to call the code
Adam if we suspected it again.

[Julie Bove]

"Janet Bostwick" <nos...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:tk6sp8p0lkl68r02a...@4ax.com...

> I agree it's ridiculous. The modern trend is to build a house without
> a basement, build a garage, store all the basement stuff in the garage
> and park the cars outside. In my dreams, I build a house with a full
> basement, full attic and still have a garage. The nicest garage I
> ever saw was a two level affair with broad stairs at the back leading
> to upstairs storage. In this age of everyone having 'stuff', you'd
> think houses would accommodate it
> Janet US

On this street there are tiny "garages" that won't even hold a car! Maybe
a Smart car or a motorcycle. But they are too short and too narrow to park
a standard vehicle in. We use ours mainly to store a few things and keep
extra canned foods and paper goods. My freezer is out there too. No room
for anything else! Its intent was not for gardening tools because there is
a shed built into the side for that. And then they put a 400 sq. ft. back
house that is just totally stupid! They never finished it off. Just has a
cement floor but they did put in lighting, phone line, electricity, a heater
and oh yeah, a fireplace! They also put a loft in it presumably for
storage.

If I had it my way, I would just manage to squeeze all of our seasonal
decorations into the already stuffed garage but husband insists that they go
back into the back house. It's quite inconvenient to get into, particularly
if it is raining or snowing. We do have old furniture back there that needs
to go to the dump. And my husband has some stuff back there. Not sure
exactly what. Some military stuff and maps. But it's a stupidly huge
building to have been built. Who would need anything so large for storage?
And there is no plumbing so it could never be used as real living space.

But even the houses on this street that have regular full sized garages, do
not usually park cars in them. I thought we had a lot of stuff but some of
those house's garages make it look like hoarders are in there. Almost
always there is a refrigerator or freezer or both and to the ceiling stacks
of I don't know what! Sometimes I can't even see a path to get in and out.

[Nunya Bidnits]

lucreti...@fl.it wrote:
>>
> Has any child been abducted walking on the street in your area ?

Surely you aren't going to say that a single anecdotal account has some sort
of statistical or practical import. ??

[Julie Bove]

<lucreti...@fl.it> wrote in message
news:q1asp8pq2d04va43p...@4ax.com...
> I am sure it is the only reason my friends house is not selling
> quickly. While it does make a measure of sense not to have a basement
> fronting a lake, there is no other apparent reason it wouldn't be
> snatched up other than the lack of a basement.


When we bought this house we had a hard time finding one that didn't have a
basement. I have difficulty with stairs and we intended to buy a house for
life. I can't tell you how many older people I know who can't afford to buy
a new house now and are stuck in their house with stairs. Basements used to
be common here but they are not with the new construction.

[Betsy D]

On Wed, May 22, 2013, Julie Bove wrote:

> They said they only had 16 minutes
> warning on this one. That's not much
> time! When I was a kid, I can remember
> the warnings coming several hours
> ahead of time...

I'm sorry, but Tornado WARNINGS don't come HOURS before a tornado.

When conditions are "favorable" for a tornado to form, a Tornado WATCH
is issued, and that can last for hours.

When a funnel cloud or tornado is 'confirmed' (by law enforcement or the
weather service or certified spotters) a Tornado WARNING is issued.

A tornado can form in a matter of seconds, so a 16 minute warning was a
good amount of time to warn the people of Moore that one was headed
their way.

[Pico Rico]

"Betsy D" <EIM...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6988-519...@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net...

On Wed, May 22, 2013, Julie Bove wrote:

> They said they only had 16 minutes
> warning on this one. That's not much
> time! When I was a kid, I can remember
> the warnings coming several hours
> ahead of time...

I'm sorry, but Tornado WARNINGS don't come HOURS before a tornado.

When conditions are "favorable" for a tornado to form, a Tornado WATCH
is issued, and that can last for hours.

When a funnel cloud or tornado is 'confirmed' (by law enforcement or the
weather service or certified spotters) a Tornado WARNING is issued.

------------

just curious - would a warning not be issued if non-certified spotters
called in reputable reports or a tornado?

[jmcquown]

All I can say is it wasn't fun...

The geezer who hit me probably shouldn't have been driving. His wife
came running across the street and invited me and my friends in for milk
and cookies. I was pretty dazed. Wound up with a bruise the size of a
grapefruit on my ass where the car hit me. Also blue paint on my green
shorts and my knees and hands were scraped up pretty bad.

Jill

[Nunya Bidnits]

lucreti...@fl.it wrote:

> I am curious about all the child abductions that apparently take place
> as figments of imagination.

Please cite relative to real life risks. .

[Nunya Bidnits]

lucreti...@fl.it wrote:
> I am sure it is the only reason my friends house is not selling
> quickly. While it does make a measure of sense not to have a basement
> fronting a lake, there is no other apparent reason it wouldn't be
> snatched up other than the lack of a basement.

That you know of. Perhaps it's overpriced. Perhaps it has other issues.

In any case, what does that have to do with the difficulty of excavating
basement foundations in Oklahoma?

[Nunya Bidnits]

Given the meteorology technology in the area around Moore, chances are they
see it on radar and warn on it faster than it can be called in and
processed. But most locales are not that advanced. It's because of the
University of Oklahoma's massive meteorology program and state of the art
technology.

They actually gave people 2 days notice that conditions were going to be
ripe for a major tornado outbreak.

MartyB

[Nunya Bidnits]

Cheryl <jlhs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/21/2013 11:04 AM, jmcquown wrote:
>
>> Yes, it's truly horrific. The report from the National Weather
>> Service says: "The tornado touched down at 2:56 p.m., 16 minutes
>> after the first warning went out, and traveled for 20 miles, said
>> Keli Pirtle, a spokeswoman for the National Weather Service in
>> Norman, Okla. It was on the ground for 40 minutes, she said."
>>
>> I've only had two brief experiences with tornados in my life (when I
>> lived in Tennessee). Forty minutes seems like a heck of a long time
>> for a tornado to stay on the ground. Allegedly it cut a swath 2
>> miles wide and travelled over 30 miles on the ground. It's a tragic
>> situation. My heart goes out to them.
>>
>> Jill
>
> Because of where OK is situated between warm moist air from the Gulf,
> and cooler dryer air from CA direction, they are prone to these
> storms. My first thought was why wasn't the school evacuated in time
> because I heard it moved slowly. Of course I have no idea how these
> big ones work so my thoughts were only out of grief.

The kids stayed at the school because it was the strongest structure in the
area and again, most houses don't have basements. Sound decision, but
nothing much can withstand a direct hit from an F5. They had some warning,
but not enough for parents to go to the school, gather their children (there
would be a large cluster of people all at once which slows things way down)
and then still have time to flee the area or get back to a place with a safe
room.

MartyB

[Nunya Bidnits]

Police should have been called. The geezer got to move on and probably do it
again and at minimum you should have had a medical exam. The woman bringing
cookies should have been on the phone calling for help. You don't respond to
a kid getting hit by a car by trying to feed them.

MartyB

MartyB

[Nunya Bidnits]

lucreti...@fl.it wrote:

> On Thu, 23 May 2013 07:45:59 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> <juli...@frontier.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> I guess she didn't hear of the three in Cleveland who just got out
>> after being held captive for years? Jaycee Dugar? I know there are
>> others but the names escape me.
>

> Of course she did, but they were not kids going to school. They
> willingly accepted a ride with him.

>>
>> My mom's cousin who is a year older than me had the exact scenario
>> that you just said. Except that she got away. She was riding her
>> bike. The guy came along and reached out of his van and tried to
>> grab her. She fought him off and ran home. This didn't happen on a
>> school day so her parents were home. They called the police, went
>> back to the spot where it had happened and her bike was still there.
>>
>

> Congrats - one kid compared to millions.

So this is getting stupid. Are you saying that it's not worthwhile to
protect kids from predators because it doesn't happen often enough? Maybe if
they weren't so well protected the incidents would increase and then you
would have the useless stats you want. <boggle>

[Ophelia]

"Nunya Bidnits" <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in message
news:knll59$p29$1...@dont-email.me...

Amen! This argument is getting more ridiculous by the minute!


--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

[Dave Smith]

On 23/05/2013 8:29 AM, jmcquown wrote:

>
> It wasn't until I was hit by a car (while walking with friends down a
> quiet suburban street) when I was about 14 they decided they needed a
> second car. I wasn't badly hurt, but my knees were really scraped up.
> Dad was off playing golf or something and Mom didn't have any way to

> come get me. After I had to limp home, a second car suddenly seemed
> like a good idea.
>

I am almost glad to hear that I am not the only one who has been hit by
a car. I was hit while ring my bicycle.... old lady at the wheel.
According to her, it was my fault. I was on my bicycle and headed to the
exit of a park along the Niagara Parkway. She was on the way in. There
was a stop sign facing her and it was a T intersection. I was going from
her right... no stop sign and there was a car coming toward me from the
other branch of the T. I signalled my turn and he waved me ahead. The
old lady had stopped at the stop sign until I was about half way around
the corner and then we pulled ahead.

Boy do you ever fly when you get hit. I landed on the other side for the
curb, so I flew at least 20 feet, and neither one of us was going very fast.

According to the old lady it was my fault. I pointed out that she had a
stop sign so she was required to stop and yield the right of way. She
claimed that she did stop and yield the right of way, but then I pulled
in front of her. Then she didn't want to pay for the damages that the
cop told her she was liable for. For some reason, he told her I had to
get three estimates. The way it works with bike repairs is that they
charge for the use of the jig and once it is in they do the repair. She
was whining that I didn't have three estimates.

Why can't you hit stupid old ladies?

[Janet Bostwick]

thank you. Someone needed to get rid of the crazy talk. In the 1990s
the warning was only 5 minutes or less. 16 minutes was a wonderful
amount of warning time.
Janet US.

[Nunya Bidnits]

Brooklyn1 <grave...@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 23 May 2013 07:37:29 -0300, lucreti...@fl.it wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 22 May 2013 21:36:02 -0400, Brooklyn1
>> <grave...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> And there are plenty of houses in the north east that are cited over
>>> huge granite boulders... the foundation is placed directly on the
>>> rock with earth bulldozed up around the foundation to form a
>>> berm... it actually costs less to bulldoze surrounding earth than
>>> to install a footing... the solid rock makes a far superior footing.
>>

>> In my area
>
> What area is that?
>
>> we are on granite bedrock and I can only think of one house
>> I know built slab on and they are not finding it easy to sell
>> although they are positioned on a lovely lake and the house itself
>> is very nice.
>
> NYC is built on bedrock yet nearly every building has a basement, many
> larger buildings have 2-3 story sub basements. Where I live upstate
> NY it's very rare to find an abode built on a slab, those are usually
> singlewide/doublewide trailers.. and still they're not directly on the
> slab, they're set on a low concrete block wall that creates a crawl
> space of about 4'... that air space is very important to healthful
> living. I know of only one house about a half mile from me that's
> been on the market over five years and won't sell because it's on a
> slab, and it's on a lovely 20 acre property. A full basement adds
> about 10% to construction costs but adds about 25% to resale value.
> Living in a house on a slab is tantamount to living in a trailer...
> even a trailer is better because it would be set on blocks so it's off
> the slab... living directly on a slab is no different from living
> directly on the ground, may as well pitch a tent.
>
> Many of the older homes in New England have basements that are hand
> dug with the house set on stacked field stone with no concrete,
> they've been standing for hundreds of years since revolutionary times,
> not fancy but still a full basement that offers protection from severe
> inclement weather. In those days the basement contained a working
> kitchen complete with a huge beehive oven that also heated the
> house... there'd even be a ramp from outside leading down for
> ill/pregnant livestock.

Translation: You know nothing about building modern homes in Oklahoma.

[Janet Bostwick]

The tornado chasers also give warnings to municipalities of funnel on
the ground and it's heading.
Janet US

[Julie Bove]

<lucreti...@fl.it> wrote in message
news:o1dsp8tjqm38g4f8e...@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 23 May 2013 07:45:59 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> <juli...@frontier.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>I guess she didn't hear of the three in Cleveland who just got out after
>>being held captive for years? Jaycee Dugar? I know there are others but
>>the names escape me.
>

> Of course she did, but they were not kids going to school. They
> willingly accepted a ride with him.

Pretyy sure that Jaycee was abducted by him. Can't say for sure about the
others.

[Julie Bove]

<lucreti...@fl.it> wrote in message
news:95dsp8tut3f3t8t1u...@4ax.com...
> So that's a lot of robberies and vehicle crashes, but not child
> abductions !

Right! But just showing you why it's not so safe to walk on this street.

[Julie Bove]

<lucreti...@fl.it> wrote in message
news:m8dsp8dvnkrp7f38r...@4ax.com...

> I am curious about all the child abductions that apparently take place
> as figments of imagination.

They're not! I get an Amber alert on my TV every few weeks.

[Julie Bove]

<lucreti...@fl.it> wrote in message
news:h7tsp8laqtrq8ghvd...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 23 May 2013 12:03:42 -0500, "Nunya Bidnits"

> <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>
>>lucreti...@fl.it wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 May 2013 10:14:25 -0500, "Nunya Bidnits"
>>> <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> lucreti...@fl.it wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>> Has any child been abducted walking on the street in your area ?
>>>>
>>>> Surely you aren't going to say that a single anecdotal account has
>>>> some sort of statistical or practical import. ??
>>>
>>> I am curious about all the child abductions that apparently take place
>>> as figments of imagination.
>>
>>Please cite relative to real life risks. .
>

> You list all the actual ones for me -

I'm sure nobody here keeps track of them. But you can see statistics here:

http://codeamber.org/?cabu1

[Julie Bove]

Betsy D wrote:
> On Wed, May 22, 2013, Julie Bove wrote:
>
>> They said they only had 16 minutes
>> warning on this one. That's not much
>> time! When I was a kid, I can remember
>> the warnings coming several hours
>> ahead of time...
>
> I'm sorry, but Tornado WARNINGS don't come HOURS before a tornado.
>
> When conditions are "favorable" for a tornado to form, a Tornado WATCH
> is issued, and that can last for hours.
>

Perhaps it was a watch then. I was 7 and under and I'm 53 now so don't
remember too many specifics of that. I do remember being shown where we
should go if one was coming. And we used to drive to where they had hit to
look at the damage.

>
>
> When a funnel cloud or tornado is 'confirmed' (by law enforcement or
> the weather service or certified spotters) a Tornado WARNING is
> issued.

Okay.

> A tornado can form in a matter of seconds, so a 16 minute warning was
> a good amount of time to warn the people of Moore that one was headed
> their way.

Okay then. I stand corrected.

[Julie Bove]

I'll bet there was a child abduction there. Bwahahaha!