Lest We Forget
Debbie
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders Fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders Fields.
- John McCrae
Dave Smith
FWIW we will be going to the Remembrance Day ceremonies at 11 am this
morning, then into Toronto to visit my wife's family plot. Her mother
died on Remembrance Day (83). Also buried there are are father and
grandfather, both of whom fought in WWI. My father was in the air force
and was the sole survivor when his plane was shot down over Denmark and
escaped to Sweden and got back to England. When he died we took his
ashes over to Denmark to be buried alongside the graves of his crew. We
will be thinking of them and the sacrifices they made.
Eight years ago my wife and I were driving around Europe and stopped at
Ypres, and every night there is a wreath laying ceremony at the Mennen
Gates. We visited the old field hospital where John McCrae wrote that poem.
Debbie
"Dave Smith" <adavid...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4afaba17$0$1610$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
My father-in-law fought in the first world war as part of a mounted unit.
He would often speak of the gas attacks. My father was a gunner in the 2nd
world war. In early heart bypass days he was hampered by having no leg
veins to use due to schrapnel injuries. My mother's uncle lost his life in
the first world war.
Debbie
Bob Muncie
It was a lovely poem.
Thanks...
Virginia Tadrzynski
"Debbie" <MollyM...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hde9k8$s68$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
taking a collection for the inpatients at the Veteran's Hospital. I quoted
this poem and half the kids sitting around in their pajamas and cell phones,
looked at me like I disturbed the peace. Maybe if more people KNEW that
11/11 at 11:11 a.m. is Armistice Day and that it has nothing to do with
getting that sale on coats before the holiday rush we might be a better
society.
-ginny
atec7 7
delighted to see many more youngsters attending amongst the hundreds there
in one word
Respect
George Shirley
WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. I don't think American schools even teach
American History anymore. That being said, all the schools in our Parish
celebrated Veteran's Day yesterday and are closed today. This area has a
high percentage of veterans to the regular population and there are
multiple ceremonies going on today.
I went to the Veteran's Home in Jennings, LA yesterday and delivered a
load of goodies from the pantry, mostly jellies and jams. The home is
good about saving me the jars and rings too. The guys in the home are
mostly disabled and very elderly and we had a nice visit. Talked with
lots of WWII and Korean War vets and we swapped lies about our days in
the military. I try to visit often as I might well be in there someday
if my luck turns.
Phred
>delighted to see many more youngsters attending amongst the hundreds there
ABC News reported up to twice the number of previous years at some
services. Here, we had a pretty good roll up of old vets at the
memorial for the 11 a.m. service. Mostly Vietnam vets at a guess; but
there was one old bloke in an electric wheel-chair who *may* have been
a survivor from WWI. If so, he'd have to be pushing towards 110; so I
suspect he was from WWII, which would still make him at least 81/82.
Cheers, Phred.
--
ppnerk...@THISyahoo.com.INVALID
Andy
@news.eternal-september.org:
Pop didn't die in WWII. He died much later after serving.
Half staff flag, today!
RIP POP!
Andy
Dave Balderstone
<MollyM...@hotmail.com> wrote:
A recent survey here asked school children what they though the message
of "Flanders Fields" is. They almost unanimously answered "peace".
While I'm sure their teachers approved the answer, it is entirely
wrong. And the dead do not sleep, though poppies grow in Flanders
Fields.
djb
--
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is
the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose
coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." --
Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
Dave Smith
>
> ABC News reported up to twice the number of previous years at some
> services. Here, we had a pretty good roll up of old vets at the
> memorial for the 11 a.m. service. Mostly Vietnam vets at a guess; but
> there was one old bloke in an electric wheel-chair who *may* have been
> a survivor from WWI. If so, he'd have to be pushing towards 110; so I
> suspect he was from WWII, which would still make him at least 81/82.
We don't have any WWI vets left in Canada. The last one died this year.
When I was a kid, my father and most of my friends' fathers were WWII
vets, and there were some Korean War vets. The WWI vets were all really
old guys. At least, they seemed really old to me at the time.
My father in law was older than my grandmother, and was mentally alert
right up until the time he died at (almost) 95. He had served in the
American army in WWI and used to tell us about the war. Most of his
stories were amusing anecdotes, like unloading a train car of supplies
for the officer's mess and stealing a case of champagne and getting
drunk for the first time, or making arrangements for a French farm wife
to cook them a nice meal.
There were a couple more serious stories. He had been on guard duty one
night and was relieved by someone else. They traded places and about
five minutes later an artillery shell went off overhead and the guy who
had taken his place was killed by a big piece of shrapnel that went
through his chest.
One story that always choked him up was about the end of the war, when
the armistice came into effect at 11 am. they had been taking potshots
back and forth and someone in their outfit was shot and killed about 10
minutes before 11. It was a real disappointment because everyone knew
the truce was happening in a few minutes.
In 2001 my wife and I were driving around France and came across the
American War Cemetery at Meuse-Argonne and went to check it out. It was
an eerie experience. The place is beautiful and just as we got out of
the car the carillon started playing America The Beautiful. We thought
hat it was just for us, and then realized it was 12 noon. We went over
to see the grave markers and I headed off in one direction and my wife
headed off in another direction. We were about 200 yards apart and then
walked toward each other on an angle, and right where we met was the
grave of a soldier from her father's outfit.... killed in action Nov. 11
1918. We couldn't help but wonder if that was the guy that Jake had told
us about.
notbob
> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
I'm not a fan of maudlin poetry, but I get it. When I got out of the
USAF in '70, I swore a lifelong pledge to never support the military or
war again. Young idialism.
Now, much much older, I realize man is, by nature, a stupid and
warlike creature. If someone attacks me, I will raise arms in my
defense, be it home or country. I also honor those who have done
likewise on my behalf. If you don't like corny poems, read a book
(Band of Brothers, Goodbye Darkness) or watch a good movie (All Quiet
On the Western Front). Even a bad movies will do. AMC is showing vet
films, all day, today.
As an afterthought, be not too critical of young idealism. Perhaps,
someday, we'll outgrow these sad instincts which cause so much grief
to ourselves.
nb
Jean B.
Fifty-two minutes and counting.
--
Jean B.
Phred
>Phred wrote:
>
>> ABC News reported up to twice the number of previous years at some
>> services. Here, we had a pretty good roll up of old vets at the
>> memorial for the 11 a.m. service. Mostly Vietnam vets at a guess; but
>> there was one old bloke in an electric wheel-chair who *may* have been
>> a survivor from WWI. If so, he'd have to be pushing towards 110; so I
>> suspect he was from WWII, which would still make him at least 81/82.
>
>We don't have any WWI vets left in Canada. The last one died this year.
Yeah, I rather suspect all ours are gone now too. My uncertainty
illustrated above is because there's a bit of ambiguity here in Oz and
Kiwiland because of the ANZACS. All ANZACS are WWI vets, but not all
WWI vets are ANZACS. (The latter date from 1915, the former could
have come in as late as 1918.) AFAIK all our ANZACS are now gone; I
would be surprised if any WWI vets are still alive, but I'm not quite
so sure about that.
Cheers, Phred.
--
ppnerk...@THISyahoo.com.INVALID
Stu
-->In article <hdeg6u$a4e$4...@news.eternal-september.org>, atec7 7 <"atec
77"@hotmail.com> wrote:
-->>Virginia Tadrzynski wrote:
-->>> "Debbie" <MollyM...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
-->>> news:hde9k8$s68$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
-->>>> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
-->>>> Between the crosses, row on row,
-->>>> That mark our place; and in the sky
-->>>> The larks, still bravely singing, fly
-->>>> Scarce heard amid the guns below.
-->>>>
-->>>> We are the Dead. Short days ago
-->>>> We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
-->>>> Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
-->>>> In Flanders Fields.
-->>>>
-->>>> Take up our quarrel with the foe:
-->>>> To you from failing hands we throw
-->>>> The torch; be yours to hold it high.
-->>>> If ye break faith with us who die
-->>>> We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
-->>>> In Flanders Fields.
-->>>>
-->>>> - John McCrae
-->>>>
-->>> We went to the diner on Sunday after church and a lady from the VFW was
-->>> taking a collection for the inpatients at the Veteran's Hospital. I
quoted
-->>> this poem and half the kids sitting around in their pajamas and cell
phones,
-->>> looked at me like I disturbed the peace. Maybe if more people KNEW that
-->>> 11/11 at 11:11 a.m. is Armistice Day and that it has nothing to do with
-->>> getting that sale on coats before the holiday rush we might be a better
-->>> society.
-->>>
-->>Yesterday morning when I attended the local R.S.L 4 am Service I was
-->>delighted to see many more youngsters attending amongst the hundreds there
-->>in one word -- Respect
-->
-->ABC News reported up to twice the number of previous years at some
-->services. Here, we had a pretty good roll up of old vets at the
-->memorial for the 11 a.m. service. Mostly Vietnam vets at a guess; but
-->there was one old bloke in an electric wheel-chair who *may* have been
-->a survivor from WWI. If so, he'd have to be pushing towards 110; so I
-->suspect he was from WWII, which would still make him at least 81/82.
-->
-->Cheers, Phred.
My father was on a minesweeper at 18 yrs., he got a great deal of shrapnel in
his body from having his ship attacked by aircraft. He died at 54 yrs. old
from his wounds, he met my new wife while he was in hospital, he never got to
meet his grandchildren.
I think of him daily.
PeterL
news:7lvvs5F...@mid.individual.net:
No WW1 Vets left in Oz (or even the World IIRC).
The last of our WW1 Vets, Jack Ross, died in June this year, aged 110.
--
Peter Lucas
Brisbane
Australia
If we are not meant to eat animals,
why are they made of meat?
PeterL
news:7m02e9F...@mid.individual.net:
I think there would have been quite a few killed on that last day......
more's the pity.
Here's another one.......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1918.JPG
"In memoriam. Tombe du soldat Henry J. Gollhardt mort au champ d'honneur
le 11/11/1918, en France. Cimeti�re am�ricain de Romagne-sous-Montfaucon."
Ms P
"Debbie" <MollyM...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hde9k8$s68$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Today is for honoring living veterans, not memorializing the dead soldier.
Memorial Day in May is for memorializing the dead.
Ms P
PeterL
@mid.individual.net:
Sorry Ms P, but no.
Rememberance Day is Worldwide, Memorial Day is not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_Day
"Remembrance Day also known as Poppy Day, Armistice Day (the event it
commemorates) or Veterans Day is a day to commemorate the sacrifices of
members of the armed forces and of civilians in times of war, specifically
since the First World War. It is observed on 11 November to recall the end
of World War I on that date in 1918 (major hostilities of World War I were
formally ended at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month of 1918
with the German signing of the Armistice). The day was specifically
dedicated by King George V, on 7 November 1919, to the observance of
members of the armed forces who were killed during war;"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_Day
Memorial Day is a United States federal holiday observed on the last
Monday of May (May 25 in 2009). Formerly known as Decoration Day, it
commemorates U.S. men and women who were in the military service. First
enacted to honor Union soldiers of the American Civil War (it is
celebrated near the day of reunification after the Civil War), it was
expanded after World War I.
Poppies are used on both days.
Debbie
"Ms P" <ms_pe...@wbsnet.org> wrote in message
news:7m0md0F...@mid.individual.net...
Not everywhere.
Debbie
Dora
Today is historically Armistice Day, commemorating the cessation of
hostilities at 11 a.m., November 11, 1918 and in memory of those who
gave their lives during WW1.
Stu
-->ppnerkDE...@yahoo.com (Phred) wrote in
-->news:7lvvs5F...@mid.individual.net:
-->
-->> In article <hdeg6u$a4e$4...@news.eternal-september.org>, atec7 7 <"atec
-->> 77"@hotmail.com> wrote:
-->>>Virginia Tadrzynski wrote:
-->>>> "Debbie" <MollyM...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
-->>>> news:hde9k8$s68$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
-->>>>> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
-->>>>> Between the crosses, row on row,
-->>>>> That mark our place; and in the sky
-->>>>> The larks, still bravely singing, fly
-->>>>> Scarce heard amid the guns below.
-->>>>>
-->>>>> We are the Dead. Short days ago
-->>>>> We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
-->>>>> Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
-->>>>> In Flanders Fields.
-->>>>>
-->>>>> Take up our quarrel with the foe:
-->>>>> To you from failing hands we throw
-->>>>> The torch; be yours to hold it high.
-->>>>> If ye break faith with us who die
-->>>>> We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
-->>>>> In Flanders Fields.
-->>>>>
-->>>>> - John McCrae
-->>>>>
-->>>> We went to the diner on Sunday after church and a lady from the VFW
-->>>> was taking a collection for the inpatients at the Veteran's Hospital.
-->>>> I quoted this poem and half the kids sitting around in their pajamas
-->>>> and cell phones, looked at me like I disturbed the peace. Maybe if
-->>>> more people KNEW that 11/11 at 11:11 a.m. is Armistice Day and that it
-->>>> has nothing to do with getting that sale on coats before the holiday
-->>>> rush we might be a better society.
-->>>>
-->>>Yesterday morning when I attended the local R.S.L 4 am Service I was
-->>>delighted to see many more youngsters attending amongst the hundreds
-->>>there in one word -- Respect
-->>
-->> ABC News reported up to twice the number of previous years at some
-->> services. Here, we had a pretty good roll up of old vets at the
-->> memorial for the 11 a.m. service. Mostly Vietnam vets at a guess; but
-->> there was one old bloke in an electric wheel-chair who *may* have been
-->> a survivor from WWI. If so, he'd have to be pushing towards 110; so I
-->> suspect he was from WWII, which would still make him at least 81/82.
-->>
-->
-->
-->No WW1 Vets left in Oz (or even the World IIRC).
-->
-->The last of our WW1 Vets, Jack Ross, died in June this year, aged 110.
We have one WW1 vet, he's 103 yrs.
Pits09
> -->No WW1 Vets left in Oz (or even the World IIRC).
> -->
> -->The last of our WW1 Vets, Jack Ross, died in June this year, aged 110.
>
> We have one WW1 vet, he's 103 yrs.
103 years ?
2009 minus 1918 = 91
103- 91 means he was 12 in 1918
interesting
Golden One
They do not get taught much in Australian schools either, and sadly I
must have failed in my grandmotherly duties to inform the grandies,
because this is the conversation I had with younger grandson yesterday
when I picked him up from school.
Me: Did you have a minute silence today for Remeberance Day?
He (with somewhat puzzled look): Yes, but I didn't remember anything!
We had a discussion of what Rememberance Day is for. His answer did
crack me up though :-)
JB
>
<snip>>
> - Show quoted text -
PeterL
46b2d3...@w37g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
WWI,
>> WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. I don't think American schools even teach
>> American History anymore. That being said, all the schools in our
Parish
>> celebrated Veteran's Day yesterday and are closed today. This area has
a
>> high percentage of veterans to the regular population and there are
>> multiple ceremonies going on today.
>
> They do not get taught much in Australian schools either, and sadly I
> must have failed in my grandmotherly duties to inform the grandies,
> because this is the conversation I had with younger grandson yesterday
> when I picked him up from school.
>
> Me: Did you have a minute silence today for Remeberance Day?
> He (with somewhat puzzled look): Yes, but I didn't remember anything!
>
> We had a discussion of what Rememberance Day is for. His answer did
> crack me up though :-)
>
Schools here in Queensland are quite well versed on what Rememberance Day
and Anzac day are all about.
Probably because we have the majority of large Military bases.
But it should be taught in *all* schools, as they are the ones that are
going to have to keep the tradition going after we all croak it.
And being ex-Military, my family, and extended family are all very well
'up' on both days :-)
My SO's Granddad served in the Boer War (wounded) and WW1, my Granddad
served in WW1 & WW2 (wounded and POW in WW1, died shortly after WW2 from
wounds and injuries)....... and with my service, and a son who spent some
time in the Army, if we didn't know and observe these days, we should be
shot!!
So take it upon yourself JB, to teach the young'uns what it's all about.
Don't leave it to the namby-pambys who want to make sure that all the kids
know about is aboriginal 'history' :-(
Stu
wrote:
-->On Nov 11, 11:16�pm, George Shirley <gsh...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
-->> Virginia Tadrzynski wrote:
-->> > "Debbie" <MollyMoll...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
-->> >news:hde9k8$s68$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
-->> >> �In Flanders fields the poppies blow
-->> >> �Between the crosses, row on row,
-->> >> �That mark our place; and in the sky
-->> >> �The larks, still bravely singing, fly
-->> >> �Scarce heard amid the guns below.
-->>
-->> >> �We are the Dead. Short days ago
-->> >> �We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
-->> >> �Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
-->> >> �In Flanders Fields.
-->>
-->> >> �Take up our quarrel with the foe:
-->> >> �To you from failing hands we throw
-->> >> �The torch; be yours to hold it high.
-->> >> �If ye break faith with us who die
-->> >> �We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
-->> >> �In Flanders Fields.
-->>
-->> >> �- John McCrae
-->>
-->> > We went to the diner on Sunday after church and a lady from the VFW was
-->> > taking a collection for the inpatients at the Veteran's Hospital. �I
quoted
-->> > this poem and half the kids sitting around in their pajamas and cell
phones,
-->> > looked at me like I disturbed the peace. �Maybe if more people KNEW that
-->> > 11/11 at 11:11 a.m. is Armistice Day and that it has nothing to do with
-->> > getting that sale on coats before the holiday rush we might be a better
-->> > society.
-->> > -ginny
-->>
-->> My grown grandkids, all born in the eighties, don't even know about WWI,
-->> WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. I don't think American schools even teach
-->> American History anymore. That being said, all the schools in our Parish
-->> celebrated Veteran's Day yesterday and are closed today. This area has a
-->> high percentage of veterans to the regular population and there are
-->> multiple ceremonies going on today.
-->
-->They do not get taught much in Australian schools either, and sadly I
-->must have failed in my grandmotherly duties to inform the grandies,
-->because this is the conversation I had with younger grandson yesterday
-->when I picked him up from school.
-->
-->Me: Did you have a minute silence today for Remeberance Day?
-->He (with somewhat puzzled look): Yes, but I didn't remember anything!
-->
-->We had a discussion of what Rememberance Day is for. His answer did
-->crack me up though :-)
-->
-->JB
-->>
--><snip>>
-->> - Show quoted text -
.... and to alot of people it's just a extra day off. Most twenty somethings
don't have a clue about what Rememberance Day is all about, and we have
ourselves to blame for that.
atec7 7
Bob Terwilliger
> A recent survey here asked school children what they though the message of
> "Flanders Fields" is. They almost unanimously answered "peace".
>
> While I'm sure their teachers approved the answer, it is entirely wrong.
> And the dead do not sleep, though poppies grow in Flanders Fields.
Good points. I wonder how many teachers ever gave a moment's thought to,
"Take up our quarrel with the foe" and its bizarre misinterpretation as a
plea for peace. Can't people READ?
Bob
Stu
<dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:
-->In article <km4nf5dpt76vb5qsh...@4ax.com>, Stu
--><rec...@foodforu.ca> wrote:
-->
-->> .... and to alot of people it's just a extra day off. Most twenty
somethings
-->> don't have a clue about what Rememberance Day is all about, and we have
-->> ourselves to blame for that.
-->
-->Remembrance Day. You have an extra "e" in there.
Thank you for taking the time out of your busy day to point out my spelling
mistake.
-->
-->I read recently about school kids being asked what they though the poem
-->"In Flanders Fields" meant. The majority said "peace".
-->
-->Obviously they either didn't read the poem, or have been so
-->indoctrinated by what passes for education these days that they just
-->don't understand what fighting evil means.
-->
-->"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of
-->the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the
-->freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who
-->gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the
-->flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the
-->flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis
-->Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
-->
-->I have not fought in a war and I am now 50. My great uncle fought in
-->WWII and I know he was proud of his service and the cause he fought for
-->on behalf of Canada and the rest of the free world.
-->
-->My children understand well how much I respect the men and women who
-->serve and who have served, and how much we owe to them.
-->
-->I'm proud of my my children, and I make a point of thanking the men and
-->women in uniform for their service whenever I get the chance.
-->
-->It saddens me somewhat to see how surprised they are when I do so.
-->
-->djb
Stu
-->Stu wrote:
-->> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:17:21 GMT, PeterL <P...@brissie.aus> wrote:
-->>
-->> -->ppnerkDE...@yahoo.com (Phred) wrote in
-->> -->news:7lvvs5F...@mid.individual.net:
-->> -->
-->> -->> In article <hdeg6u$a4e$4...@news.eternal-september.org>, atec7 7 <"atec
-->> -->> 77"@hotmail.com> wrote:
-->> -->>>Virginia Tadrzynski wrote:
-->> -->>>> "Debbie" <MollyM...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
-->> -->>>> news:hde9k8$s68$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
-->> -->>>>> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
-->> -->>>>> Between the crosses, row on row,
-->> -->>>>> That mark our place; and in the sky
-->> -->>>>> The larks, still bravely singing, fly
-->> -->>>>> Scarce heard amid the guns below.
-->> -->>>>>
-->> -->>>>> We are the Dead. Short days ago
-->> -->>>>> We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
-->> -->>>>> Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
-->> -->>>>> In Flanders Fields.
-->> -->>>>>
-->> -->>>>> Take up our quarrel with the foe:
-->> -->>>>> To you from failing hands we throw
-->> -->>>>> The torch; be yours to hold it high.
-->> -->>>>> If ye break faith with us who die
-->> -->>>>> We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
-->> -->>>>> In Flanders Fields.
-->> -->>>>>
-->> -->>>>> - John McCrae
-->> -->>>>>
-->> -->>>> We went to the diner on Sunday after church and a lady from the VFW
-->> -->>>> was taking a collection for the inpatients at the Veteran's
Hospital.
-->> -->>>> I quoted this poem and half the kids sitting around in their
pajamas
-->> -->>>> and cell phones, looked at me like I disturbed the peace. Maybe if
-->> -->>>> more people KNEW that 11/11 at 11:11 a.m. is Armistice Day and that
it
-->> -->>>> has nothing to do with getting that sale on coats before the
holiday
-->> -->>>> rush we might be a better society.
-->> -->>>>
-->> -->>>Yesterday morning when I attended the local R.S.L 4 am Service I was
-->> -->>>delighted to see many more youngsters attending amongst the hundreds
-->> -->>>there in one word -- Respect
-->> -->>
-->> -->> ABC News reported up to twice the number of previous years at some
-->> -->> services. Here, we had a pretty good roll up of old vets at the
-->> -->> memorial for the 11 a.m. service. Mostly Vietnam vets at a guess;
but
-->> -->> there was one old bloke in an electric wheel-chair who *may* have
been
-->> -->> a survivor from WWI. If so, he'd have to be pushing towards 110; so I
-->> -->> suspect he was from WWII, which would still make him at least 81/82.
-->> -->>
-->> -->
-->> -->
-->> -->No WW1 Vets left in Oz (or even the World IIRC).
-->> -->
-->> -->The last of our WW1 Vets, Jack Ross, died in June this year, aged 110.
-->>
-->>
-->> We have one WW1 vet, he's 103 yrs.
-->He would have to be somewhat older ?
I don't know, it was mentioned he joined at 15yrs., that would make him 106 if
my math was correct.
blake murphy
> In article <km4nf5dpt76vb5qsh...@4ax.com>, Stu
> <rec...@foodforu.ca> wrote:
>
>> .... and to alot of people it's just a extra day off. Most twenty somethings
>> don't have a clue about what Rememberance Day is all about, and we have
>> ourselves to blame for that.
>
> Remembrance Day. You have an extra "e" in there.
>
> I read recently about school kids being asked what they though the poem
> "In Flanders Fields" meant. The majority said "peace".
>
> Obviously they either didn't read the poem, or have been so
> indoctrinated by what passes for education these days that they just
> don't understand what fighting evil means.
>
> "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of
> the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the
> freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who
> gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the
> flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the
> flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis
> Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
>
what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
(and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well. korea and
vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.
note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our vets, but
preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we citizens have to
do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
(jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)
your pal,
blake
Ranée at Arabian Knits
Dave Balderstone <dave***@balderstone.ca> wrote:
> In article <hde9k8$s68$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Debbie
> <MollyM...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In Flanders fields the poppies blow
> > Between the crosses, row on row,
> > That mark our place; and in the sky
> > The larks, still bravely singing, fly
> > Scarce heard amid the guns below.
> >
> > We are the Dead. Short days ago
> > We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
> > Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
> > In Flanders Fields.
> >
> > Take up our quarrel with the foe:
> > To you from failing hands we throw
> > The torch; be yours to hold it high.
> > If ye break faith with us who die
> > We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
> > In Flanders Fields.
> >
> > - John McCrae
> >
>
> A recent survey here asked school children what they though the message
> of "Flanders Fields" is. They almost unanimously answered "peace".
>
> While I'm sure their teachers approved the answer, it is entirely
> wrong. And the dead do not sleep, though poppies grow in Flanders
> Fields.
I read the poem to my children last night and asked them what they
thought the message was. My nine year old piped up "To keep fighting
the enemy." He's not yet done poetry analysis, though we read a lot of
it together and he has been memorizing and reciting poetry for the last
three years.
Regards,
Ranee @ Arabian Knits
"She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands." Prov 31:13
Dan Abel
blake murphy <blakepm...@verizon.net> wrote:
> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
>
> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well.
Militarily or economically? Hitler intended to unify Europe and make it
a major world power. Who knows what his ultimate goal was?
> korea and
> vietnam, even less so.
Of course, the stated goal was "stopping the Red Menace". It was just a
coincidence that we pulled out of Vietnam once synthetic rubber was
invented.
> iraq - don't make me laugh.
Saddam Hussein was a big enthusiast of Hitler and plans for world
domination. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, if Saddam Hussein
had in fact conquered the Middle East, that country might have become a
world power.
--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA
da...@sonic.net
Dave Smith
>
> Saddam Hussein was a big enthusiast of Hitler and plans for world
> domination. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, if Saddam Hussein
> had in fact conquered the Middle East, that country might have become a
> world power.
>
There is no doubt that Saddam was a ruthless son of a bitch. He was the
head of a country full of ruthless sons of bitches. Curiously, the US
provided satellite intelligence to help Iraq "calibrate" (target)
Iranian troops for chemical weapon attacks, but when he moved on Kuwait
he was the bad guy and his forces were pretty well destroyed in Desert
Storm. Stories about WMDs were proven to have been a fabrication to
justify an invasion. He was not a threat to the US. He wasn't much of a
threat to anyone.
I have a lot of respect for the men and women in the military who are
ready and willing to fight for their country in a just war. I feel sorry
for them when they get sent to fight unjust wars.
George Shirley
> In article <m805dsfc29u7$.s8p7ydkm...@40tude.net>,
> blake murphy <blakepm...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
>> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
>> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
>>
>> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
>> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well.
>
> Militarily or economically? Hitler intended to unify Europe and make it
> a major world power. Who knows what his ultimate goal was?
>
>> korea and
>> vietnam, even less so.
>
> Of course, the stated goal was "stopping the Red Menace". It was just a
> coincidence that we pulled out of Vietnam once synthetic rubber was
> invented.
Unfortunately for your theory synthetic rubber was invented in 1930 by
Dupont. It's called neoprene.
Dan Abel
Dave Smith <adavid...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Dan Abel wrote:
>
> >
> > Saddam Hussein was a big enthusiast of Hitler and plans for world
> > domination. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, if Saddam Hussein
> > had in fact conquered the Middle East, that country might have become a
> > world power.
> >
>
> There is no doubt that Saddam was a ruthless son of a bitch. He was the
> head of a country full of ruthless sons of bitches. Curiously, the US
> provided satellite intelligence to help Iraq "calibrate" (target)
> Iranian troops for chemical weapon attacks, but when he moved on Kuwait
> he was the bad guy and his forces were pretty well destroyed in Desert
> Storm. Stories about WMDs were proven to have been a fabrication to
> justify an invasion. He was not a threat to the US. He wasn't much of a
> threat to anyone.
I can't argue with your facts, but there's a long timeline here:
1. Iran/Iraq. The US has always had an unwritten policy that if a
country is an enemy of our enemy, then they are our friend. When we
were unhappy with Iran, then Iraq, and Saddam Hussein, was our friend.
It's not clear whether we supplied Saddam with WOMD (those chemical
weapons), but we supplied intelligence. And of course, even though they
were military targets, a lot of civilians got killed.
2. In the time of George I, Saddam claims that he had "permission" to
invade Kuwait from the US (meaning only that we would not interfere). I
don't believe the US ever denied that. The claim was that the US
Ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie, gave the "permission". Iraq did
invade Kuwait, and the UN approved help to Kuwait. A lot of US
resources were involved, and Iraq was not only driven out of Kuwait, but
much of the infrastructure in Iraq was destroyed. I don't believe there
was a big deal about WOMD, but it was ordered that there be UN
inspections to make sure that Iraq didn't acquire any.
3. In the time of George II, Iraq was invaded again, this time upon the
pretense that there were WOMD.
EJ Willson
You miss the whole point. None of these freedoms would be available to
you if it were not for the soldiers/sailors/airmen who preserve and
defend this country and its constitution from people who would take all
the liberties and property you have.
The fact that we have never had to defend the mainland USA from forces
that would occupy it only serves to prove that the threat of action by
our military (to defend the USA) has been effective.
Iraq, Vietnam, Korea etc are totally irrelevant to Sgt. O'Brien's statement.
EJ in NJ
Bob Muncie
You know, I have to sigh because you have a somewhat valid point. But
you are also wrong.
Just because you are somewhat right in regards to "why" people serve,
does not validate you or your thought process
People serve for a number of reasons, and likely it is a combination of
reasons.
Point is? Unless *you* serve, you have no valid points to make as to the
motivations as to why someone serves..
Being a ponce, is just that.
That is you.
Bob Muncie
Sorry EJ. I was irritated, but read it from your reply. I was really
irritated at Murphy. I missed the start/stop of the posts.
Blake -
Feel free to call me a "wingnut". I will absorb that as something people
not willing to put their life on the line to preserve the freedoms of
all, are the same people that I protected when I served. I have zero
issue with your opinion, but I do consider it rather lame.
If someone else is willing to put their life on the line for you to have
a verbal opinion, what does that make them?
I would never have an issue with you having a "ponce" opinion about
anything.
I consider your stance that my protecting that right and meaning
nothing, a sore point.
Next you will say that the jews have nothing to complain about in regard
to WWII.
Defending the homeland? That is your point?
You are a ponce.
Just because we have not been invaded is not an excuse for not taking
responsibility for out actions. Nor is it a good excuse for not taking
action when we were isolationists.
We all have to be responsible for our actions, or our inactivity.
That includes you.
You lost my respect today.
I know that means nothing to you... but it is still a fact.
Stu
-->EJ Willson wrote:
-->> blake murphy wrote:
-->>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:06:54 -0600, Dave Balderstone wrote:
-->>>
-->>>> In article <km4nf5dpt76vb5qsh...@4ax.com>, Stu
-->>>> <rec...@foodforu.ca> wrote:
-->>>>
-->>>>> .... and to alot of people it's just a extra day off. Most twenty
-->>>>> somethings
-->>>>> don't have a clue about what Rememberance Day is all about, and we have
-->>>>> ourselves to blame for that.
-->>>> Remembrance Day. You have an extra "e" in there.
-->>>>
-->>>> I read recently about school kids being asked what they though the poem
-->>>> "In Flanders Fields" meant. The majority said "peace".
-->>>>
-->>>> Obviously they either didn't read the poem, or have been so
-->>>> indoctrinated by what passes for education these days that they just
-->>>> don't understand what fighting evil means.
-->>>>
-->>>> "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of
-->>>> the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the
-->>>> freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who
-->>>> gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the
-->>>> flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the
-->>>> flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis
-->>>> Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
-->>>
-->>> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
-->>> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
-->>> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
-->>>
-->>> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
-->>> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well. korea and
-->>> vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.
-->>>
-->>> note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our vets, but
-->>> preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we citizens have to
-->>> do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
-->>>
-->>> (jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)
-->>>
-->>> your pal,
-->>> blake
-->>
-->> You miss the whole point. None of these freedoms would be available to
-->> you if it were not for the soldiers/sailors/airmen who preserve and
-->> defend this country and its constitution from people who would take all
-->> the liberties and property you have.
-->>
-->> The fact that we have never had to defend the mainland USA from forces
-->> that would occupy it only serves to prove that the threat of action by
-->> our military (to defend the USA) has been effective.
-->>
-->> Iraq, Vietnam, Korea etc are totally irrelevant to Sgt. O'Brien's
-->> statement.
-->>
-->> EJ in NJ
-->
-->Sorry EJ. I was irritated, but read it from your reply. I was really
-->irritated at Murphy. I missed the start/stop of the posts.
-->
-->Blake -
-->
-->Feel free to call me a "wingnut". I will absorb that as something people
-->not willing to put their life on the line to preserve the freedoms of
-->all, are the same people that I protected when I served. I have zero
-->issue with your opinion, but I do consider it rather lame.
-->
-->If someone else is willing to put their life on the line for you to have
-->a verbal opinion, what does that make them?
-->
-->I would never have an issue with you having a "ponce" opinion about
-->anything.
-->
-->I consider your stance that my protecting that right and meaning
-->nothing, a sore point.
-->
-->Next you will say that the jews have nothing to complain about in regard
-->to WWII.
-->
-->Defending the homeland? That is your point?
-->
-->You are a ponce.
-->
-->Just because we have not been invaded is not an excuse for not taking
-->responsibility for out actions. Nor is it a good excuse for not taking
-->action when we were isolationists.
-->
-->We all have to be responsible for our actions, or our inactivity.
-->
-->That includes you.
-->
-->You lost my respect today.
-->
-->I know that means nothing to you... but it is still a fact.
You join because it's your choice to serve your country and protect
your loved ones. It being a career is secondary.
EJ Willson
ISTM that some of you are blaming the US military for these wars
(Vietnam, Iraq, etc.) Am I correct?
EJ in NJ
Bob Muncie
I don't consider that a correct assessment. But as long as you are
thinking about it, it is a step forward.
Bob
Bob Muncie
I so much agree with that thought. That is why at the the ten year mark,
I became a civilian again.
I felt it would be a negative for my family to remain in the military.
If I did not have my own family at that time to be concerned with, I
would have stayed in the military until retirement.
I liked the lifestyle, I believed in the reasons why I was there, and
even if the administrations were sometimes hard to appreciate, I loved
my country. Not the administration running it.
And I did make the original choice. No one forced me to. I also do not
regret having made that choice.
Bob
Stu
-->Stu wrote:
-->> You join because it's your choice to serve your country and protect
-->> your loved ones. It being a career is secondary.
-->
-->ISTM that some of you are blaming the US military for these wars
-->(Vietnam, Iraq, etc.) Am I correct?
-->
Could you tell me EJ what was the reason for invading Iraq?
blake murphy
sounds like a lot of 'ifs' and 'mights' to me - most of which have been
disproven in the event. the dominoes did not collapse and obliterate
california, and hussein turns out to have been in no position to conquer
the middle east.
note again i'm not saying anything about whether those conflicts were
worthwhile (though i think they were not), but that since they were not
some kind to existence of the u.s., in no way were about 'giving us our
freedoms.'
your pal,
blake
blake murphy
the fact that there are no dragons here proves that my dragon-repelling
rock is effective.
blake
blake murphy
then you don't understand my point. none of those conflicts were to
prevent some power from conquering the u.s., so my freedom of speech is not
an issue.
> I would never have an issue with you having a "ponce" opinion about
> anything.
>
> I consider your stance that my protecting that right and meaning
> nothing, a sore point.
>
> Next you will say that the jews have nothing to complain about in regard
> to WWII.
contrary to u.s. government policy, 'jews' are not the united states.
there are lots of other people as well.
>
> Defending the homeland? That is your point?
>
> You are a ponce.>
yeah i guess my points make me a queer.
> Just because we have not been invaded is not an excuse for not taking
> responsibility for out actions. Nor is it a good excuse for not taking
> action when we were isolationists.
>
> We all have to be responsible for our actions, or our inactivity.
>
> That includes you.
>
> You lost my respect today.
ohnoes!!!
>
> I know that means nothing to you... but it is still a fact.
you couldn't argue your way out of a paper bag. guess that make you some
kind of fairy faggot mincer, huh?
blake
Bob Muncie
That was actually funny. Can you do it again? And no, I did not miss
your point earlier. I just have a difference in opinion. But I was a bit
stupid with the loss of respect statement. I actually evaluate what you
have to say. I guess that means I actually respect you. Just don't tell
anybody.
Bob
EJ Willson
My point here is that Blake in particular seems to think that the
military starts and wants these wars. As you undoubtedly know the US
military has never and cannot start a war. Wars are started by
politicians. The military merely does the best it can to comply with the
orders. During my entire time in the military I only met two people who
ever wanted to go to war.
When people confuse the political agenda with military actions, the
military takes a bad rap.
EJ in NJ
Doug Freyburger
> EJ Willson <ewil...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> -->ISTM that some of you are blaming the US military for these wars
> -->(Vietnam, Iraq, etc.) Am I correct?
>
1) Clearly did not happen - The troops decided to go in and invade.
2) Clearly did happen - The civilian authorities decided to tell the
troops to go in and invade.
On that level it's as simple as "We ran out of pita. Go conquer the
place that makes them". It's extremely rare for a military to invade
any country but its own - military coup. It is absolutely certain that
the US military was not the group who decided to go into Iraq. This is
why supporting the troops is a good idea even by folks who do not
support the policy that put them there. Yet how many civilian
authorities got voted out of office to change the policy? Voters are
fickle.
There are probably all sorts of reasons, most of which I disagree with.
1) Look at the State Department list of nations that sponsor terrorism
and take the next one out. I might have actually agreed with this one
if there had been something like a Marshal Plan for go with it. Then
again at the time I thought the next on on the list was a different
country than Iraq.
2) Look at the State Department list of nations that sponsor terrorism
and find the one that offers an excuse to go in and take over. As
reasons go that's a pretty weak one. So my current thought is among the
ones I suggest it was at the top of the list.
3) Look at the State Department list of nations and sponsor terrorism
and see if any of them actually do that. Then attack the one that was
on the list erroneously. Didn't the speach after 9/11 include an
assertion that lies would be used among the tools of war?
4) Historically the US general population has disapproved of US foreign
policy in almost every decade since the country was founded. Let's give
them something to really divide pulbic opinions on this time.
5) Look at the nationality of the suicide bombers of the 9/11 planes and
notice 11 of 15 were Saudi citizens. Notice that Saudi Arabia is a
purported ally. Maybe if we pull our troops from there they will
collapse in a revolution some time in the next decade then we can go in
and take over after letting their own people punish them for the attack.
Look, there's even a convenient country next door where we can store
our troops in the mean time. For a while I actually thought that was
the strategy, but now it's a decade later and they still haven't fallen.
Sigh.
So - Military recipes? Most of the food I had on base was very
American. Meat and potatoes sort of stuff. To this day I still like
the wide and thin military omlette style over the puffy fluffy fritatta
omlette style. I'd rather see recpies for food I had off base. Lumpia
maybe.
Stu
-->Bob Muncie wrote:
-->> EJ Willson wrote:
-->>> Stu wrote:
-->>>> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 01:14:24 -0500, Bob Muncie <bob.m...@gmail.com>
-->>>> wrote:
-->>>>
-->>>> -->EJ Willson wrote:
-->>>> -->> blake murphy wrote:
-->>>> -->>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:06:54 -0600, Dave Balderstone wrote:
-->>>> -->>>
-->>>> -->>>> In article <km4nf5dpt76vb5qsh...@4ax.com>, Stu
-->>>> -->>>> <rec...@foodforu.ca> wrote:
-->>>> -->>>>
-->>>> -->>>>> .... and to alot of people it's just a extra day off. Most
-->>>> twenty -->>>>> somethings
-->>>> -->>>>> don't have a clue about what Rememberance Day is all about,
-->>>> and we have
-->>>> -->>>>> ourselves to blame for that.
-->>>> -->>>> Remembrance Day. You have an extra "e" in there.
-->>>> -->>>>
-->>>> -->>>> I read recently about school kids being asked what they though
-->>>> the poem
-->>>> -->>>> "In Flanders Fields" meant. The majority said "peace".
-->>>> -->>>>
-->>>> -->>>> Obviously they either didn't read the poem, or have been so
-->>>> -->>>> indoctrinated by what passes for education these days that
-->>>> they just
-->>>> -->>>> don't understand what fighting evil means.
-->>>> -->>>>
-->>>> -->>>> "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the
-->>>> freedom of
-->>>> -->>>> the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the
-->>>> -->>>> freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus
-->>>> organizer, who
-->>>> -->>>> gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who
-->>>> salutes the
-->>>> -->>>> flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped
-->>>> by the
-->>>> -->>>> flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father
-->>>> Dennis
-->>>> -->>>> Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
-->>>> -->>>
-->>>> -->>> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war
-->>>> since wwii
-->>>> -->>> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving
-->>>> us our
-->>>> -->>> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
-->>>> -->>>
-->>>> -->>> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the
-->>>> japanese
-->>>> -->>> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well.
-->>>> korea and
-->>>> -->>> vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.
-->>>> -->>>
-->>>> -->>> note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our
-->>>> vets, but
-->>>> -->>> preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we
-->>>> citizens have to
-->>>> -->>> do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
-->>>> -->>>
-->>>> -->>> (jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)
-->>>> -->>>
-->>>> -->>> your pal,
-->>>> -->>> blake
-->>>> -->> -->> You miss the whole point. None of these freedoms would be
-->>>> available to -->> you if it were not for the soldiers/sailors/airmen
-->>>> who preserve and -->> defend this country and its constitution from
-->>>> people who would take all -->> the liberties and property you have.
-->>>> -->> -->> The fact that we have never had to defend the mainland USA
-->>>> from forces -->> that would occupy it only serves to prove that the
-->>>> threat of action by -->> our military (to defend the USA) has been
-->>>> effective.
-->>>> -->> -->> Iraq, Vietnam, Korea etc are totally irrelevant to Sgt.
-->>>> O'Brien's -->> statement.
-->>>> -->> -->> EJ in NJ
-->>>> -->
-->>>> -->Sorry EJ. I was irritated, but read it from your reply. I was
-->>>> really -->irritated at Murphy. I missed the start/stop of the posts.
-->>>> -->
-->>>> -->Blake -
-->>>> -->
-->>>> -->Feel free to call me a "wingnut". I will absorb that as something
-->>>> people -->not willing to put their life on the line to preserve the
-->>>> freedoms of -->all, are the same people that I protected when I
-->>>> served. I have zero -->issue with your opinion, but I do consider it
-->>>> rather lame.
-->>>> -->
-->>>> -->If someone else is willing to put their life on the line for you
-->>>> to have -->a verbal opinion, what does that make them?
-->>>> -->
-->>>> -->I would never have an issue with you having a "ponce" opinion
-->>>> about -->anything.
-->>>> -->
-->>>> -->I consider your stance that my protecting that right and meaning
-->>>> -->nothing, a sore point.
-->>>> -->
-->>>> -->Next you will say that the jews have nothing to complain about in
-->>>> regard -->to WWII.
-->>>> -->
-->>>> -->Defending the homeland? That is your point?
-->>>> -->
-->>>> -->You are a ponce.
-->>>> -->
-->>>> -->Just because we have not been invaded is not an excuse for not
-->>>> taking -->responsibility for out actions. Nor is it a good excuse for
-->>>> not taking -->action when we were isolationists.
-->>>> -->
-->>>> -->We all have to be responsible for our actions, or our inactivity.
-->>>> -->
-->>>> -->That includes you.
-->>>> -->
-->>>> -->You lost my respect today.
-->>>> -->
-->>>> -->I know that means nothing to you... but it is still a fact.
-->>>>
-->>>> You join because it's your choice to serve your country and protect
-->>>> your loved ones. It being a career is secondary.
-->>>
-->>> ISTM that some of you are blaming the US military for these wars
-->>> (Vietnam, Iraq, etc.) Am I correct?
-->>>
-->>> EJ in NJ
-->>
-->> I don't consider that a correct assessment. But as long as you are
-->> thinking about it, it is a step forward.
-->>
-->> Bob
-->
-->My point here is that Blake in particular seems to think that the
-->military starts and wants these wars. As you undoubtedly know the US
-->military has never and cannot start a war. Wars are started by
-->politicians. The military merely does the best it can to comply with the
-->orders. During my entire time in the military I only met two people who
-->ever wanted to go to war.
-->
-->When people confuse the political agenda with military actions, the
-->military takes a bad rap.
-->
-->EJ in NJ
So what you're saying then is that the iraq war is a product of the bush
administration. They said that there were wmd, they invaded the country and
then it was found that there were no wmd, they simply invaded because they
could.
Stu
wrote:
-->Stu wrote:
-->> EJ Willson <ewil...@comcast.net> wrote:
-->>
-->> -->ISTM that some of you are blaming the US military for these wars
-->> -->(Vietnam, Iraq, etc.) Am I correct?
-->>
-->> Could you tell me EJ what was the reason for invading Iraq?
-->
-->1) Clearly did not happen - The troops decided to go in and invade.
-->
-->2) Clearly did happen - The civilian authorities decided to tell the
-->troops to go in and invade.
-->
-->On that level it's as simple as "We ran out of pita. Go conquer the
-->place that makes them". It's extremely rare for a military to invade
-->any country but its own - military coup. It is absolutely certain that
-->the US military was not the group who decided to go into Iraq. This is
-->why supporting the troops is a good idea even by folks who do not
-->support the policy that put them there. Yet how many civilian
-->authorities got voted out of office to change the policy? Voters are
-->fickle.
-->
-->There are probably all sorts of reasons, most of which I disagree with.
-->
-->1) Look at the State Department list of nations that sponsor terrorism
-->and take the next one out. I might have actually agreed with this one
-->if there had been something like a Marshal Plan for go with it. Then
-->again at the time I thought the next on on the list was a different
-->country than Iraq.
-->
-->2) Look at the State Department list of nations that sponsor terrorism
-->and find the one that offers an excuse to go in and take over. As
-->reasons go that's a pretty weak one. So my current thought is among the
-->ones I suggest it was at the top of the list.
-->
-->3) Look at the State Department list of nations and sponsor terrorism
-->and see if any of them actually do that. Then attack the one that was
-->on the list erroneously. Didn't the speach after 9/11 include an
-->assertion that lies would be used among the tools of war?
-->
-->4) Historically the US general population has disapproved of US foreign
-->policy in almost every decade since the country was founded. Let's give
-->them something to really divide pulbic opinions on this time.
-->
-->5) Look at the nationality of the suicide bombers of the 9/11 planes and
-->notice 11 of 15 were Saudi citizens. Notice that Saudi Arabia is a
-->purported ally. Maybe if we pull our troops from there they will
-->collapse in a revolution some time in the next decade then we can go in
-->and take over after letting their own people punish them for the attack.
--> Look, there's even a convenient country next door where we can store
-->our troops in the mean time. For a while I actually thought that was
-->the strategy, but now it's a decade later and they still haven't fallen.
-->Sigh.
-->
-->So - Military recipes? Most of the food I had on base was very
-->American. Meat and potatoes sort of stuff. To this day I still like
-->the wide and thin military omlette style over the puffy fluffy fritatta
-->omlette style. I'd rather see recpies for food I had off base. Lumpia
-->maybe.
Hows this? I've got thousands.
MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.06
Title: Chicken Tetrazzini (canned chicken)
Categories: Military
Yield: 100 servings
3 3/4 qt WATER; WARM
1 3/4 ga WATER; BOILING
3 ga WATER; BOILING
18 1/8 lb -
1 lb CHEESE CHEDDER
2 lb BUTTER PRINT SURE
2 7/8 c MILK; DRY NON-FAT L HEAT
2 3/4 c PIMENTOS 7 OZ
1 1/2 qt MUSHROOMS 16 OZ
1/2 lb ONIONS DRY
1/2 lb PEPPER SWT GRN FRESH
5 lb SPAGHETTI
1 1/4 lb FLOUR GEN PURPOSE 10LB
2 c SOUP GRAVY BASE CHICKEN
1 ts PEPPER BLACK 1 LB CN
6 tb SALT TABLE 5LB
PAN: 12 BY 20 BY 2 1/2-INCH STEAM TABLE PAN TEMPERATURE: 350
F. OVEN
1. STIR SPAGHETTI INTO BOILING SALTED WATER. STIR FREQUENTLY. COOK
ABOUT 15 MINUTES. DRAIN; SET ASIDE FOR USE IN STEP 6.
2. SAUTE ONIONS AND PEPPERS IN BUTTER OR MARGARINE UNTIL TENDER. ADD
MUSHROOMS; COMBINE THOROUGHLY.
3. COMBINE FLOUR AND SOUP AND GRAVY BASE. ADD TO SAUTEED VEGETABLES.
STIR UNTIL WELL MIXED.
4. GRADUALLY ADD WATER, STIRRING CONSTANTLY. COOK 10 MINUTES OR UNTIL
SMOOTH AND THICKENED.
5. RECONSTITUTE MILK; ADD GRADUALLY TO VEGETABLE-SAUCE MIXTURE,
STIRRING CONSTANTLY. SIMMER 10 MINUTES.
6. ADD SPAGHETTI, CHICKEN, PIMIENTOS, AND PEPPER. COMBINE THOROUGHLY.
7. POUR ABOUT 1 1/2 GAL MIXTURE INTO EACH PAN.
8. SPRINKLE 1 CUP CHEESE OVER MIXTURE IN EACH PAN.
9. BAKE 30 MINUTES OR UNTIL CHEESE IS BUBBLING AND MELTED.
NOTE: 1. IN STEP 2, 1 OZ (1/3 CUP) DEHYDRATED ONIONS AND 1 1/4 OZ
(1 CUP) DEHYDRATED GREEN PEPPERS (SEE RECIPE CARD A01100) OR 8 OZ (1
1/2 CUPS) FROZEN DICED, GREEN PEPPERS MAY BE USED.
NOTE: 2. IN STEP 2, 9 OZ DRY ONIONS A.P. WILL YIELE 8 OZ CHOPPED
ONIONS AND 10 OZ FRESH SWEET PEPPERS A.P. WILL YIELD 8 OZ CHOPPED
PEPPERS.
NOTE: 3. IN STEP 2, 8-Z CN CANNED MUSHROOMS MAY BE USED.
NOTE: 4. IN STEP 6, 10-29 OZ CN CANNED TURKEY MAY BE USED.
NOTE: 5. OTHER SIZES AND TYPES OF PANS MAY BE USED.
Recipe Number: L15200
SERVING SIZE: 1 CUP
MMMMM
Bob Muncie
Who is "they"?
Do I have questions on why the decision to go to into Iraq? Yes. But I
also do not have all the details. While jaundiced about our
administration, I also know they do not tell us everything. Some things
you just have to have a little faith about.
I have yet to see an administration I am happy with. OTOH? I have never
seen the US military invade anywhere. It was a decision the
administration made.
Bob
Bob Muncie
You poked a memory of mine. A couple of the best food memories I have
related to the military, are the 3rd shift omelets that I had at Ft.
Gordon, GA while in my second AIT. The cooks there were wonderful on the
omelets, and pretty much anything you wanted could be added, and they
took only a couple of minutes to make them. Kudos to those guys, and I
will fondly remember them always. And if you a hungry piggy like person
as I was at the time, you could always go back and get seconds. They
didn't mind.
Good memories.
Bob
The Joneses
news:jLKdnX49r5yuWmfX...@giganews.com...>> news:hde9k8$s68$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
>>> Between the crosses, row on row,
>>> That mark our place; and in the sky
>>> The larks, still bravely singing, fly
>>> Scarce heard amid the guns below.
>>>
>>> We are the Dead. Short days ago
>>> We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
>>> Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
>>> In Flanders Fields.
>>>
>>> Take up our quarrel with the foe:
>>> To you from failing hands we throw
>>> The torch; be yours to hold it high.
>>> If ye break faith with us who die
>>> We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
>>> In Flanders Fields.
>>>
>>>holiday rush we might be a better society.
>> -ginny
Thanks from 2 vets. Prior service people are everywhere and people are
continually surprised at my *veteran* patch and dogtags. A policeman's
funeral procession got my salute today, although they didn't see me.
I had to hang Ol'Whisker's paratrooper's hat in the ICU at the military
hospital to remind them who he was. He didn't wait until his break was over
to jump...
I served my country, kept all the promises I made for 12 years, 7 months,
22 days, 3 damaged veterbrae/both knees & hands. I was just a leetle hero. I
made sure the others got paid, promoted, chastised, & family helps. And the
mail. This was before cellphones & laptops about 112 years ago.
OB: Bless all y'all, whatever you did, however you did it for your
country. I think that is *preserving* our heritage and our freedoms. Which
includes any opinion anybuddy got, too.
Love,
Edrena
Dave Smith
Well, you had all the "proof". Colin Powell had that nice little
presentation for the UN Security Council, including those artists
renditions of what a mobile chemical or biological lab might look like,
and the forged copies of documents about the Nigerian yellow cake
purchase that Bush and his gang had already been told were fakes.
The frustrating thinks for the friends and allies of the US is that we
told you we didn't believe that Saddam had WMDs and were concerned that
ousting Saddam would break open a hornets nest. Then Dubya came out
with that you're with us or agin us rhetoric. So we reserved the right
to say "we told you so". And you guys voted that idiot in as president
a second time..... we told you so,
> I have yet to see an administration I am happy with. OTOH? I have never
> seen the US military invade anywhere. It was a decision the
> administration made.
That's why I said that I respect the people who are willing to lay down
their lives for their country and then end up being sent places they
should not be sent. It doesn't help your credibility much that when the
rest of your friends and allies were fighting the Nazis the US did its
best not to get involved, and then turned around and used the propaganda
machine to make it look like you defeated Germany single handled.
Bob Muncie
Did I say that?
I think I said in an earlier post that we all have to be responsible for
what we do, and also what we don't do.
On this topic, I am not proud we (americans) chose to stay out of the
fight for as long as we did in the WW2 period. Being isolationists has
it's down side.
The fact you recognize the military themselves had little decision in
the fight is a worthy point. "DubU" was a mistake for our country. I can
not state how sad I am for a few of the choices we have made as a
country since the 60s.
But I also know we have not heard all the details that wound be required
to make a sound decision. That is why we have to have a little faith in
our administrations, even if we do not trust them.
To be honest? I think you are likely a good cook, but I have to have a
little faith.
BTW, what did you make for dinner?
I was going to make a new meal, but since I had some beef roast leftover
from yesterday, I sauteed some mushrooms and onions, made broth, and
added some corn starch, added some sour cream, and made noodles.
Excellent use of leftovers... I would have liked a little bit more. It
was quite tasty.
Bob
Dora
>
> That's why I said that I respect the people who are willing to lay
> down their lives for their country and then end up being sent places
> they should not be sent. It doesn't help your credibility much that
> when the rest of your friends and allies were fighting the Nazis the
> US did its best not to get involved, and then turned around and used
> the propaganda machine to make it look like you defeated Germany
> single handled.
My father fought in the British Army in WW1 from 1914 to 1918 in all
the bloody fighting.
When the Americans finally arrived in France in 1917, one of them told
him "We've come to win the war for you". He replied, "and it took you
a hell of a long time too, didn't it."
Stu
-->Stu wrote:
-->> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:00:36 -0500, EJ Willson <ewil...@comcast.net>
wrote:
-->>
-->> -->Bob Muncie wrote:
-->> -->> EJ Willson wrote:
-->> -->>> Stu wrote:
-->> -->>>> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 01:14:24 -0500, Bob Muncie
<bob.m...@gmail.com>
-->> -->>>> wrote:
-->> -->>>>
-->> -->>>> -->EJ Willson wrote:
-->> -->>>> -->> blake murphy wrote:
-->> -->>>> -->>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:06:54 -0600, Dave Balderstone wrote:
-->> -->>>> -->>>
-->> -->>>> -->>>> In article <km4nf5dpt76vb5qsh...@4ax.com>, Stu
-->> -->>>> -->>>> <rec...@foodforu.ca> wrote:
-->> -->>>> -->>>>
-->> -->>>> -->>>>> .... and to alot of people it's just a extra day off. Most
-->> -->>>> twenty -->>>>> somethings
-->> -->>>> -->>>>> don't have a clue about what Rememberance Day is all about,
-->> -->>>> and we have
-->> -->>>> -->>>>> ourselves to blame for that.
-->> -->>>> -->>>> Remembrance Day. You have an extra "e" in there.
-->> -->>>> -->>>>
-->> -->>>> -->>>> I read recently about school kids being asked what they
though
-->> -->>>> the poem
-->> -->>>> -->>>> "In Flanders Fields" meant. The majority said "peace".
-->> -->>>> -->>>>
-->> -->>>> -->>>> Obviously they either didn't read the poem, or have been so
-->> -->>>> -->>>> indoctrinated by what passes for education these days that
-->> -->>>> they just
-->> -->>>> -->>>> don't understand what fighting evil means.
-->> -->>>> -->>>>
-->> -->>>> -->>>> "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the
-->> -->>>> freedom of
-->> -->>>> -->>>> the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us
the
-->> -->>>> -->>>> freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus
-->> -->>>> organizer, who
-->> -->>>> -->>>> gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who
-->> -->>>> salutes the
-->> -->>>> -->>>> flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is
draped
-->> -->>>> by the
-->> -->>>> -->>>> flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father
-->> -->>>> Dennis
-->> -->>>> -->>>> Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
-->> -->>>> -->>>
-->> -->>>> -->>> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war
-->> -->>>> since wwii
-->> -->>>> -->>> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with
'giving
-->> -->>>> us our
-->> -->>>> -->>> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
-->> -->>>> -->>>
-->> -->>>> -->>> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the
-->> -->>>> japanese
-->> -->>>> -->>> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well.
-->> -->>>> korea and
-->> -->>>> -->>> vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.
-->> -->>>> -->>>
-->> -->>>> -->>> note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our
-->> -->>>> vets, but
-->> -->>>> -->>> preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we
-->> -->>>> citizens have to
-->> -->>>> -->>> do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
-->> -->>>> -->>>
-->> -->>>> -->>> (jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)
-->> -->>>> -->>>
-->> -->>>> -->>> your pal,
-->> -->>>> -->>> blake
-->> -->>>> -->> -->> You miss the whole point. None of these freedoms would be
-->> -->>>> available to -->> you if it were not for the
soldiers/sailors/airmen
-->> -->>>> who preserve and -->> defend this country and its constitution from
-->> -->>>> people who would take all -->> the liberties and property you have.
-->> -->>>> -->> -->> The fact that we have never had to defend the mainland
USA
-->> -->>>> from forces -->> that would occupy it only serves to prove that the
-->> -->>>> threat of action by -->> our military (to defend the USA) has been
-->> -->>>> effective.
-->> -->>>> -->> -->> Iraq, Vietnam, Korea etc are totally irrelevant to Sgt.
-->> -->>>> O'Brien's -->> statement.
-->> -->>>> -->> -->> EJ in NJ
-->> -->>>> -->
-->> -->>>> -->Sorry EJ. I was irritated, but read it from your reply. I was
-->> -->>>> really -->irritated at Murphy. I missed the start/stop of the
posts.
-->> -->>>> -->
-->> -->>>> -->Blake -
-->> -->>>> -->
-->> -->>>> -->Feel free to call me a "wingnut". I will absorb that as
something
-->> -->>>> people -->not willing to put their life on the line to preserve the
-->> -->>>> freedoms of -->all, are the same people that I protected when I
-->> -->>>> served. I have zero -->issue with your opinion, but I do consider
it
-->> -->>>> rather lame.
-->> -->>>> -->
-->> -->>>> -->If someone else is willing to put their life on the line for you
-->> -->>>> to have -->a verbal opinion, what does that make them?
-->> -->>>> -->
-->> -->>>> -->I would never have an issue with you having a "ponce" opinion
-->> -->>>> about -->anything.
-->> -->>>> -->
-->> -->>>> -->I consider your stance that my protecting that right and meaning
-->> -->>>> -->nothing, a sore point.
-->> -->>>> -->
-->> -->>>> -->Next you will say that the jews have nothing to complain about
in
-->> -->>>> regard -->to WWII.
-->> -->>>> -->
-->> -->>>> -->Defending the homeland? That is your point?
-->> -->>>> -->
-->> -->>>> -->You are a ponce.
-->> -->>>> -->
-->> -->>>> -->Just because we have not been invaded is not an excuse for not
-->> -->>>> taking -->responsibility for out actions. Nor is it a good excuse
for
-->> -->>>> not taking -->action when we were isolationists.
-->> -->>>> -->
-->> -->>>> -->We all have to be responsible for our actions, or our
inactivity.
-->> -->>>> -->
-->> -->>>> -->That includes you.
-->> -->>>> -->
-->> -->>>> -->You lost my respect today.
-->> -->>>> -->
-->> -->>>> -->I know that means nothing to you... but it is still a fact.
-->> -->>>>
-->> -->>>> You join because it's your choice to serve your country and protect
-->> -->>>> your loved ones. It being a career is secondary.
-->> -->>>
-->> -->>> ISTM that some of you are blaming the US military for these wars
-->> -->>> (Vietnam, Iraq, etc.) Am I correct?
-->> -->>>
-->> -->>> EJ in NJ
-->> -->>
-->> -->> I don't consider that a correct assessment. But as long as you are
-->> -->> thinking about it, it is a step forward.
-->> -->>
-->> -->> Bob
-->> -->
-->> -->My point here is that Blake in particular seems to think that the
-->> -->military starts and wants these wars. As you undoubtedly know the US
-->> -->military has never and cannot start a war. Wars are started by
-->> -->politicians. The military merely does the best it can to comply with
the
-->> -->orders. During my entire time in the military I only met two people who
-->> -->ever wanted to go to war.
-->> -->
-->> -->When people confuse the political agenda with military actions, the
-->> -->military takes a bad rap.
-->> -->
-->> -->EJ in NJ
-->>
-->>
-->> So what you're saying then is that the iraq war is a product of the bush
-->> administration. They said that there were wmd, they invaded the country
and
-->> then it was found that there were no wmd, they simply invaded because they
-->> could.
-->
-->Who is "they"?
-->
-->Do I have questions on why the decision to go to into Iraq? Yes. But I
-->also do not have all the details. While jaundiced about our
-->administration, I also know they do not tell us everything. Some things
-->you just have to have a little faith about.
-->
-->I have yet to see an administration I am happy with. OTOH? I have never
-->seen the US military invade anywhere. It was a decision the
-->administration made.
-->
-->Bob
That's what I just said.....
Bob Muncie
Obviously I can't apologize for that american. Or the others that
proceeded me.
All I can say is that if I could have been there for your father, and be
there early enough the comment would not have been needed, I would have.
But anyone that would have made that comment is someone I am not proud
of being associated to.
Bob
Bob Muncie
You are right. But I did expand a little :-)
Rob
Damn. You have nothing better to do?
Sad.
Rob
Bob Muncie
You are up to 13 now... shooting for a record?
And no, I will not annoy others by responding again.
Troll on your own.
Dave Smith
Shrimp liguini Alfredo.
Gregory Morrow
Can you reach *deep* enuf into yer well of shame, blake...???
Lol...
--
Best
Greg
Kitty
>
> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
>
> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well. korea and
> vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.
>
> note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our vets, but
> preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we citizens have to
> do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
>
> (jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)
>
> your pal,
> blake
It is disgusting that a person would have so little respect for the
Love and caring that people want to show to the Military Men and Women
of our country who have served with Honor and Dignity and to the
sacrifices they have made for the love of YOUR country (supposedly)
that you would Hijack their tribute to turn it to focus on your petty
differences with the country which they serve. It truly matters not
how much you dislike the country of your birth or adoption to the
tribute given to those loving and giving enough to have made those
sacrifices.
your tirade belittles their Love, their sacrifice and these who honor
them by trying to make it meaningless. keep your opinions to yourself
if you have so little respect. Don't IMAGINE that you can possibly
say that you honor their sacrifice while saying that it meant
nothing. you have NO IDEA of the truth behind your allegations, for
you are not privy to the behind closed doors intel that prompted the
actions you belittle, but your very attitude assumes you know all.
You're a mindless puppet of a media who hates the country and the
people they purport to serve and who's very attitude of grovelling to
one political party while ripping to shreds the other party
demonstrates their total LACK of the impartiality they claim to offer
to the people.
Leave a tribute or memorial alone rather than try to pull it down, for
the tribute is in the hearts of the people who make it not in the
hearts of the observers who mock it. Those who leave it alone honor
the love of those who offer it, whether or not they honor the cause.
Those who MUST try to tear down such a tribute show their fear and
hatred of that love and their jealousy of that honor given.
FWIW, kitty
Dave Smith
> On Nov 12, 9:50 am, blake murphy <blakepmNOTT...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
>> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
>> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
>>
>> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
>> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well. korea and
>> vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.
>>
>> note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our vets, but
>> preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we citizens have to
>> do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
>>
>> (jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
> It is disgusting that a person would have so little respect for the
> Love and caring that people want to show to the Military Men and Women
> of our country who have served with Honor and Dignity and to the
> sacrifices they have made for the love of YOUR country (supposedly)
> that you would Hijack their tribute to turn it to focus on your petty
> differences with the country which they serve. It truly matters not
> how much you dislike the country of your birth or adoption to the
> tribute given to those loving and giving enough to have made those
> sacrifices.
Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that going into the military is
an act of "Love". While there are some people who are involved in the
support services and clerical work, a significant number of them are
training to kill people and to rain massive amounts of destruction.
This is not a tirade against the military. Unfortunately, we live in a
world where armed conflict happens and there are some ruthless people
and regimes that need to be taken out. It is just a reality check.
Bombing and shooting is not an act of "Love".
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
Dave Smith <adavid...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that going into the military is
> an act of "Love".
You forget the virtue of patriotism, which comes of love of country.
Regards,
Ranee @ Arabian Knits
"She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands." Prov 31:13
blake murphy
can you point to anything i've said that suggests that? anything at all?
blake
blake murphy
>
> Do I have questions on why the decision to go to into Iraq? Yes. But I
> also do not have all the details.
you don't have 'all the details' because the bush administration
deliberately chose to lie about them. surprise!
blake
blake murphy
>
> note again i'm not saying anything about whether those conflicts were
> worthwhile (though i think they were not), but that since they were not
> some kind to existence of the u.s., in no way were about 'giving us our
> freedoms.'
>
> your pal,
> blake
that should have read 'some kind of threat to the existence of.'
ypb
blake murphy
did you read my last paragraph?
>> note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our vets, but
>> preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. �we citizens have to
>> do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
the fact remains that the vets were not 'preserving our freedom.' they
were doing something else deemed to be necessary.
blake
Michel Boucher
news:skixsaooyq0z$.1hpyzmt0...@40tude.net:
> the fact remains that the vets were not 'preserving our freedom.'
> they were doing something else deemed to be necessary.
Most of the ones that made it back spent a fair amount of time avoiding
being killed. The ones who didn't know enough to do that are dead and
called "heroes", the exact circumstances of their demise notwithstanding.
How many of these "heroes" were wife-beaters and child molesters? None?
Statistically impossible!
"Preserving our Freedom" (yes we have that nostrum here in Canada as
well) became an ex post facto justifying argument by the politicos. Back
then, it was "to kill [enter name of favourite enemy here], the
cocksucking bastards, may they rot in hell". But the new slogan replaces
the old one because the old one is easily dated. And it's all lies. It
never WAS about that, no matter what THAT is.
Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. - Sir
Walter Scott (Marmion, 1808)
--
�Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid
people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.�
-John Stuart Mill
Stu
wrote:
-->On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:00:36 -0500, EJ Willson wrote:
-->
-->> Bob Muncie wrote:
-->>> EJ Willson wrote:
-->>>> Stu wrote:
-->>>>> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 01:14:24 -0500, Bob Muncie <bob.m...@gmail.com>
-->>>>> wrote:
-->>>>>
-->>>>> -->EJ Willson wrote:
-->>>>> -->> blake murphy wrote:
-->>>>> -->>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:06:54 -0600, Dave Balderstone wrote:
-->>>>> -->>>
-->>>>> -->>>> In article <km4nf5dpt76vb5qsh...@4ax.com>, Stu
-->>>>> -->>>> <rec...@foodforu.ca> wrote:
-->>>>> -->>>>
-->>>>> -->>>>> .... and to alot of people it's just a extra day off. Most
-->>>>> twenty -->>>>> somethings
-->>>>> -->>>>> don't have a clue about what Rememberance Day is all about,
-->>>>> and we have
-->>>>> -->>>>> ourselves to blame for that.
-->>>>> -->>>> Remembrance Day. You have an extra "e" in there.
-->>>>> -->>>>
-->>>>> -->>>> I read recently about school kids being asked what they though
-->>>>> the poem
-->>>>> -->>>> "In Flanders Fields" meant. The majority said "peace".
-->>>>> -->>>>
-->>>>> -->>>> Obviously they either didn't read the poem, or have been so
-->>>>> -->>>> indoctrinated by what passes for education these days that
-->>>>> they just
-->>>>> -->>>> don't understand what fighting evil means.
-->>>>> -->>>>
-->>>>> -->>>> "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the
-->>>>> freedom of
-->>>>> -->>>> the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the
-->>>>> -->>>> freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus
-->>>>> organizer, who
-->>>>> -->>>> gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who
-->>>>> salutes the
-->>>>> -->>>> flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped
-->>>>> by the
-->>>>> -->>>> flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father
-->>>>> Dennis
-->>>>> -->>>> Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
-->>>>> -->>>
-->>>>> -->>> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war
-->>>>> since wwii
-->>>>> -->>> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving
-->>>>> us our
-->>>>> -->>> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
-->>>>> -->>>
-->>>>> -->>> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the
-->>>>> japanese
-->>>>> -->>> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well.
-->>>>> korea and
-->>>>> -->>> vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.
-->>>>> -->>>
-->>>>> -->>> note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our
-->>>>> vets, but
-->>>>> -->>> preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we
-->>>>> citizens have to
-->>>>> -->>> do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
-->>>>> -->>>
-->>>>> -->>> (jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)
-->>>>> -->>>
-->>>>> -->>> your pal,
-->>>>> -->>> blake
-->>>>> -->> -->> You miss the whole point. None of these freedoms would be
-->>>>> available to -->> you if it were not for the soldiers/sailors/airmen
-->>>>> who preserve and -->> defend this country and its constitution from
-->>>>> people who would take all -->> the liberties and property you have.
-->>>>> -->> -->> The fact that we have never had to defend the mainland USA
-->>>>> from forces -->> that would occupy it only serves to prove that the
-->>>>> threat of action by -->> our military (to defend the USA) has been
-->>>>> effective.
-->>>>> -->> -->> Iraq, Vietnam, Korea etc are totally irrelevant to Sgt.
-->>>>> O'Brien's -->> statement.
-->>>>> -->> -->> EJ in NJ
-->>>>> -->
-->>>>> -->Sorry EJ. I was irritated, but read it from your reply. I was
-->>>>> really -->irritated at Murphy. I missed the start/stop of the posts.
-->>>>> -->
-->>>>> -->Blake -
-->>>>> -->
-->>>>> -->Feel free to call me a "wingnut". I will absorb that as something
-->>>>> people -->not willing to put their life on the line to preserve the
-->>>>> freedoms of -->all, are the same people that I protected when I
-->>>>> served. I have zero -->issue with your opinion, but I do consider it
-->>>>> rather lame.
-->>>>> -->
-->>>>> -->If someone else is willing to put their life on the line for you
-->>>>> to have -->a verbal opinion, what does that make them?
-->>>>> -->
-->>>>> -->I would never have an issue with you having a "ponce" opinion
-->>>>> about -->anything.
-->>>>> -->
-->>>>> -->I consider your stance that my protecting that right and meaning
-->>>>> -->nothing, a sore point.
-->>>>> -->
-->>>>> -->Next you will say that the jews have nothing to complain about in
-->>>>> regard -->to WWII.
-->>>>> -->
-->>>>> -->Defending the homeland? That is your point?
-->>>>> -->
-->>>>> -->You are a ponce.
-->>>>> -->
-->>>>> -->Just because we have not been invaded is not an excuse for not
-->>>>> taking -->responsibility for out actions. Nor is it a good excuse for
-->>>>> not taking -->action when we were isolationists.
-->>>>> -->
-->>>>> -->We all have to be responsible for our actions, or our inactivity.
-->>>>> -->
-->>>>> -->That includes you.
-->>>>> -->
-->>>>> -->You lost my respect today.
-->>>>> -->
-->>>>> -->I know that means nothing to you... but it is still a fact.
-->>>>>
-->>>>> You join because it's your choice to serve your country and protect
-->>>>> your loved ones. It being a career is secondary.
-->>>>
-->>>> ISTM that some of you are blaming the US military for these wars
-->>>> (Vietnam, Iraq, etc.) Am I correct?
-->>>>
-->>>> EJ in NJ
-->>>
-->>> I don't consider that a correct assessment. But as long as you are
-->>> thinking about it, it is a step forward.
-->>>
-->>> Bob
-->>
-->> My point here is that Blake in particular seems to think that the
-->> military starts and wants these wars.
-->
-->can you point to anything i've said that suggests that? anything at all?
-->
-->blake
I as well would like to see you produce proof to back up your bullshit tirade.
Gregory Morrow
Well, the "mindless puppet" bit was pretty funny, I chortled...
;-P
--
Best
Greg
Bob Muncie
I don't know if lies were involved. But I do know that we as civvies are
often left out of the decisions as the administrations don't share info,
and if they had, by the time we did have input, it would likely be
ineffective for out input capability.
Bob
Dan Abel
Bob Muncie <bob.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
You bring up some good points, Bob, but I think the question now is not
whether every person in the world had the necessary information to
decide whether to invade Iraq back then because of WOMD, but whether we
*now* have the information to decide if we *should* have done it.
--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA
da...@sonic.net
Nick Cramer
> EJ Willson wrote:
> > blake murphy wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> .... and to alot of people it's just a extra day off. Most twenty
> >>>> somethings
> >>>> don't have a clue about what Rememberance Day is all about, and we
> >>>> have ourselves to blame for that.
> >>> Remembrance Day. You have an extra "e" in there.
> >>>
> >>> poem "In Flanders Fields" meant. The majority said "peace".
> >>>
> >>> Obviously they either didn't read the poem, or have been so
> >>> don't understand what fighting evil means.
> >>>
> >>> the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the
> >>> gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes
> >>> the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by
> >>> the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father
> >>> Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
> >>
> >> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since
> >> wwii (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us
> >> our freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
> >>
> >> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
> >> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well. korea and
> >> vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.
> >>
> >> note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our vets,
> >> but preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we citizens
> >> have to do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
> >>
> >> (jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)
> > You miss the whole point. None of these freedoms would be available to
> > you if it were not for the soldiers/sailors/airmen who preserve and
> > defend this country and its constitution from people who would take all
> > the liberties and property you have.
> >
> > The fact that we have never had to defend the mainland USA from forces
> > that would occupy it only serves to prove that the threat of action by
> > our military (to defend the USA) has been effective.
> >
> > Iraq, Vietnam, Korea etc are totally irrelevant to Sgt. O'Brien's
> > statement.
> Sorry EJ. I was irritated, but read it from your reply. I was really
> irritated at Murphy. I missed the start/stop of the posts.
> Feel free to call me a "wingnut". I will absorb that as something people
> not willing to put their life on the line to preserve the freedoms of
> all, are the same people that I protected when I served. I have zero
> issue with your opinion, but I do consider it rather lame.
>
> If someone else is willing to put their life on the line for you to have
> a verbal opinion, what does that make them?
>
> I would never have an issue with you having a "ponce" opinion about
> anything.
>
> I consider your stance that my protecting that right and meaning
> nothing, a sore point.
>
> Next you will say that the jews have nothing to complain about in regard
> to WWII.
>
> Defending the homeland? That is your point?
>
> You are a ponce.
>
> Just because we have not been invaded is not an excuse for not taking
> responsibility for out actions. Nor is it a good excuse for not taking
> action when we were isolationists.
>
> We all have to be responsible for our actions, or our inactivity.
>
> That includes you.
>
> You lost my respect today.
>
> I know that means nothing to you... but it is still a fact.
Thank you for your service, Mr. Muncie.
--
Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
families: https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ Thank a Veteran!
Support Our Troops: http://anymarine.com/ You are not forgotten.
Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~ USMC 1365061
Nick Cramer
Pits09
> Kitty <basyfe...@verizon.net> wrote:
> That's very well put, Kitty,
>
>
NICK CRAMER !! Of pork pie fame , wannabe Thai Vigilante !
Jesus where did you spring back from ?
You were on this cooking group ages ago as I recall (about 5 years)
what a bit of work you are .
Let me put it in the nicest way --- I know who and what you are
------
perhaps best you crawl back under your rock .
Dave Smith
>>>> Do I have questions on why the decision to go to into Iraq? Yes. But I
>>>> also do not have all the details.
>>> you don't have 'all the details' because the bush administration
>>> deliberately chose to lie about them. surprise!
>>>
>>> blake
>> I don't know if lies were involved. But I do know that we as civvies are
>> often left out of the decisions as the administrations don't share info,
>> and if they had, by the time we did have input, it would likely be
>> ineffective for out input capability.
>
> You bring up some good points, Bob, but I think the question now is not
> whether every person in the world had the necessary information to
> decide whether to invade Iraq back then because of WOMD, but whether we
> *now* have the information to decide if we *should* have done it.
A lot of the rest of us did not believe the stories at the time. The US
administration tried to undermine the credibility of the UN weapons
inspectors. who said that they didn't think Iraq had WMDs. We did not
believe Powell's smoke and mirrors, like showing high altitude photos of
trucks and the artists renderings of what a mobile bio-chemical warfare
labs might look like, as if those trucks were bio-chemical labs. It
was said at the time that the Nigerian yellow cake papers were
forgeries. There are so many lies about what they found that a
surprisingly high number of Americans still think that the troops did
find WMDs, even after the administration admitted that there were none
found and that they had acted on faulty intelligence.
While some Americans may like to try to claim that they *now* have the
information, most of the rest of the world knew it at the time.
Americans chose to go along with Bush the Lesser and adopt that idiotic
with us or agin us mentality and brand us as anti-American as he
proceeded to invade another country on the basis of a pack of lies.
blake murphy
huh? you *still* don't know if lies were involved?
blake
blake murphy
actually, the information was available then. it's just that anyone who
pointed to it was a 'traitor,' 'friend of the terrorists' or 'not
supporting our president in a time of war.' (funny how the last one has
flown out the window with a democratic administration.)
your pal,
blake
Bob Muncie
I agree that is also a sore point, and likely more timely.
Bob
EJ Willson
Write on Kitty, Right on!
EJ in NJ
blake murphy
evidently you don't understand what i wrote, either.
blake