parenting
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>People have rights, no matter how frustrating it is for you.
People don't have the right to make me responsible for taking care of them
unless they ask me first, which they usually don't. People don't have the right
to use my resources without contributing in some way to society. If people are
too poor or lacking in job skills to find good paying work, let's pay them what
we pay workers in foreign countries or undocumented immigrants. But no, a
Mexican, Haitian or Bangladeshi can come here and work for chump change, all
the while saving pennies to build a house back home or start a business, while
an American who speaks English and is a citizen can't be bothered to stay out
of credit card debt. Do you know why all those undocumented workers bust their
humps? Because they have one overarching fear: deportation back to the hell
hole they left. They know they've got to get it right here, especially if
they're undocumented and at risk for apprehension and deportation. Our poor
have no incentive to get their lives together because some sector of society
always steps in to catch them when they've made poor choices like becoming drug
addicts or getting pregnant outside committed relationships.
>Putting an elite in charge is a BAD idea. Fascism is SO 20th century.
I agree. But, a liberal bureaucracy is not much better.
>No, I'm saying those who have dreams should follow them but not insist
>others do the same.
I'm perfectly aware that there will always be slothful people content to get by
with the bare minimum of education, employment or material comfort. But, there
is a difference between choosing to live simply and being neglectful. By
neglectful, I don't mean parents who refuse to buy their kids new designer
clothes or cell phones; I mean parents who don't make sure their children are
clean, healthy, well rested and fed on a daily basis.
Orlando
Bryan
> alsand...@g.mail.com wrote:
> >
>
> > Putting an elite in charge is a BAD idea.
> > Fascism is SO 20th century.
>
> I agree. But, a liberal bureaucracy is not much better.
>
sure that the rules of the game allow them to accumulate power and
wealth WAY out of proportion to what they contribute to society. I
agree about the parasites at the bottom, but FAR worse are the
parasites at the top. The parasites at the top LIKE the fact that
stupid, ugly folks with bad personal habits exist and breed more
little stupid, ugly slobs in their own image. It gives middle income
folks someone to feel better than, and to blame for our stagnating
fortunes. Otherwise we might look to the bigger problem, the
parasites at the top who live like royalty.
Anyone who won't admit that is either rich himself, a liar or a moron.
>
> Orlando
--Bryan
gloria.p
> alsa...@g.mail.com wrote:
>> People have rights, no matter how frustrating it is for you.
>
> People don't have the right to make me responsible for taking care of them
> unless they ask me first, which they usually don't. People don't have the right
> to use my resources without contributing in some way to society.
I believe that's filed under civilization, subheader compassion.
No one "manufactures" resources in a vacuum. Your resources are the
result of someone giving you a job or people supporting your business
unless you have a money printing press in your basement.
gloria p
Orlando Enrique Fiol
bryang...@gmail.com wrote:
>We already have an elite in charge. They are the wealthy. They make
>sure that the rules of the game allow them to accumulate power and
>wealth WAY out of proportion to what they contribute to society. I
>agree about the parasites at the bottom, but FAR worse are the
>parasites at the top. The parasites at the top LIKE the fact that
>stupid, ugly folks with bad personal habits exist and breed more
>little stupid, ugly slobs in their own image. It gives middle income
>folks someone to feel better than, and to blame for our stagnating
>fortunes. Otherwise we might look to the bigger problem, the
>parasites at the top who live like royalty.
Furthermore, the parasites at the top make sure that those on the bottom are
kept properly drunk, high, sexed up and blissed out on TV and junk food so that
they're too incapacitated to revolt. Rather than fund a gargantuan oppressive
force to keep the poor afraid, the parasites make sure there are plenty of guns
floating around underprivileged communities so that people will kill each
other. The better the poor can be convinced that they're unworthy of better,
the less they threaten the parasitic choke hold on the best education, jobs and
health care.
Orlando
Bobo Bonobo®
> Wow! You tell 'em, brother!
I do. Would you like a complimentary mp3 version of the album?
The wealthy know that the poor, even if they were not "kept properly
drunk, high, sexed up and blissed out on TV and junk food," would
never pose a threat. The threat is from middle income working class
and middle class folks; the middle three quintiles have the resources
to change the legal structures and cultural norms that permit wealth
to be so inequitably distributed.
>
> Orlando
--Bryan
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>I do. Would you like a complimentary mp3 version of the album?
Most definitely!
>The wealthy know that the poor, even if they were not "kept properly
>drunk, high, sexed up and blissed out on TV and junk food," would
>never pose a threat.
The poor rarely start revolutions on their now, but are easily co opted.
>The threat is from middle income working class
>and middle class folks; the middle three quintiles have the resources
>to change the legal structures and cultural norms that permit wealth
>to be so inequitably distributed.
In that case, the parasitic class is not doing a good job of pacifying the
middle class. This economic downturn is hurting that class the most. The
wealthy are not filing for bankruptcy and losing their formerly overpriced
homes.
Orlando
cybercat
"Orlando Enrique Fiol" <of...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.249cfd62...@news.albasani.net...
misfortune of encountering.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>You are one of the most thoroughly unpleasant beings I have ever had the
>misfortune of encountering.
What a shame you emailed me a few times and didn't get your money's worth. What
about me makes you feel so unpleasant?
Orlando
Bobo Bonobo®
> CLASS...@BRICK.NET wrote:
> >I do. Would you like a complimentary mp3 version of the album?
>
> Most definitely!
>
I'm not sure if track 10, which is over 10mb went through. It hasn't
bounced back YET.
Just curious (I saw your posts in the theory group), what would you
call this guitar chord?
_______O____O__O__
X
___________________
X X
___________________
F# B D G# B E
>
> Orlando
--Bryan
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>I'm not sure if track 10, which is over 10mb went through. It hasn't
>bounced back YET.
Thanks for sending those. I think I got four or five emails, but don't know if
they were all copies of of a single track. I'm off to a gig now, but I'll
holler back at you later in the day.
>Just curious (I saw your posts in the theory group), what would you
>call this guitar chord?
>F# B D G# B E
I'd say that's a B minor 6 11. But it of course depends on which note you
consider the chord root.
Orlando
blake murphy
> alsa...@g.mail.com wrote:
>>People have rights, no matter how frustrating it is for you.
>
> People don't have the right to make me responsible for taking care of them
> unless they ask me first, which they usually don't. People don't have the right
> to use my resources without contributing in some way to society. If people are
> too poor or lacking in job skills to find good paying work, let's pay them what
> we pay workers in foreign countries or undocumented immigrants. But no, a
> Mexican, Haitian or Bangladeshi can come here and work for chump change, all
> the while saving pennies to build a house back home or start a business, while
> an American who speaks English and is a citizen can't be bothered to stay out
> of credit card debt. Do you know why all those undocumented workers bust their
> humps? Because they have one overarching fear: deportation back to the hell
> hole they left. They know they've got to get it right here, especially if
> they're undocumented and at risk for apprehension and deportation. Our poor
> have no incentive to get their lives together because some sector of society
> always steps in to catch them when they've made poor choices like becoming drug
> addicts or getting pregnant outside committed relationships.
>
yep, being poor, addicted and pregnant is a real day at the beach in this
country. i don't know why these people don't clean themselves up and
become republicans.
blake
blake murphy
> Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
>> alsa...@g.mail.com wrote:
>>> People have rights, no matter how frustrating it is for you.
>>
>> People don't have the right to make me responsible for taking care of them
>> unless they ask me first, which they usually don't. People don't have the right
>> to use my resources without contributing in some way to society.
>
> I believe that's filed under civilization, subheader compassion.
>
exactly right. america would at least like to pretend that it won't let
people starve, no matter how feckless and stupid they may be.
> No one "manufactures" resources in a vacuum. Your resources are the
> result of someone giving you a job or people supporting your business
> unless you have a money printing press in your basement.
also right. why people persist in believing that they even made their own
bootstraps is puzzling to me.
your pal,
blake
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>yep, being poor, addicted and pregnant is a real day at the beach in this
>country. i don't know why these people don't clean themselves up and
>become republicans.
Not at all my position. I don't know why we as a society don't make such people
more accountable to themselves, their children and us a society, rather than
enabling their pathologies with drugs, junk food, TV, cash benefits, religion
and conservative rhetoric intent on firing them up to hate others.
Orlando
Virginia Tadrzynski
"Orlando Enrique Fiol" <of...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.249e4b973...@news.albasani.net...
I remember the Florence Crittenden Homes for Unwed Mothers. If you somehow
became 'in the family way' you were sent away to have the baby and it was
put up for adoption. There was shame attached to bringing shame to your
family. Now pregnant teens are expected and a badge of honor. I suffered
the wrath of certain family members because I wouldn't hold a 'baby shower'
for one of the pregnant teens in the extended family. I told them I wasn't
going to reward her for her behavior. Not only will I not throw one, but I
will not go to a shower for an 'errant teen'.
-ginny
Michel Boucher
> Not at all my position. I don't know why we as a society don't make
> such people more accountable to themselves, their children and us a
> society, rather than enabling their pathologies with drugs, junk food,
> TV, cash benefits, religion and conservative rhetoric intent on firing
> them up to hate others.
And what makes you so fucking pure you can make that demand?
--
Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest
of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest
good of everyone. - John Maynard Keynes
blake murphy
i don't think conservative rhetoric is designed to fire up the poor to hate
others. it's designed to fire up others to hate the poor.
blake
sf
wrote:
Everybody has a point of view and his rhetoric is stuck in the past.
Power to the people!
--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Gregory Morrow
> On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:22:19 -0600, gloria.p wrote:
>
>> Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
>>> alsa...@g.mail.com wrote:
>>>> People have rights, no matter how frustrating it is for you.
>>>
>>> People don't have the right to make me responsible for taking care
>>> of them unless they ask me first, which they usually don't. People
>>> don't have the right to use my resources without contributing in
>>> some way to society.
>>
>> I believe that's filed under civilization, subheader compassion.
>>
>
> exactly right. america would at least like to pretend that it won't
> let people starve, no matter how feckless and stupid they may be.
>
And we're the first society in history where many, many of the poor are
*fat*...ain't America GREAT or WHAT...!!!???
;-P
--
Best
Greg
Gregory Morrow
Good for you, I wish more peeps had your attitude...
--
Best
Greg
Gregory Morrow
Poor people are stupid so who *really* gives a shit, blake...???
--
Best
Greg
cybercat
"Gregory Morrow" <xt...@xxuitx.es> wrote in message
news:iZCdnUkXnN6LzKjX...@earthlink.com...
Obesity is caused by malnutrition.
cybercat
Queers are stupid, so who gives a shit, Greggie?
Gregory Morrow
A *lot* of 'em are, cyberkittie...and no, I don't give a shit.
;-P
--
Best
Greg
George Shirley
foreclosed. Bitching about "it ain't right." The reporter plainly stated
that the couple was given a loan for 125% of the homes actual value,
there was no credit check, the didn't have to make a down payment. Wow,
I wonder why they couldn't afford the McMansion they were living in.
I have a credit rating that is so high that I could get any loan I
wanted. I just don't want to borrow. I have always had to put at least
20% down on any home we were buying, had to show a years worth of pay
stubs or a letter from my employer as to my annual TAKE HOME PAY, not my
total.
Have I been asleep all these years or did some idiot start giving away
loans to people who couldn't afford to pay for them? Oh yeah, Jimmy
Carter, Barney Franks, and the other idiots who developed Freddie Mac
and Fannie Mae so "poor folks" could have the home they deserved. Now
these same folks have socialized and seized the auto industry and the
banking industry. Oh hell, turning rant off, I'll be dead and gone by
the time my great grandchildren get done paying off this fiasco of Hope.
Gregory Morrow
Can't disagree with a word you wrote, George...
At least with this last economic meltdown the kibosh has kinda been put on
those "shopping as therapy" and "shopping addiction" stories of yore...
:-)
--
Best
Greg
Bobo Bonobo®
> "Orlando Enrique Fiol" <of...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:MPG.249e4b973...@news.albasani.net...
>
I'm awfully curious as to the feelings that people (you included) have
on this issue. These questions are not just for Ginny, but for
anyone:
1. Would it make a difference if the pregnancy was accidental?
a. What if it was accidental and the young woman had a moral
belief against terminating the pregnancy?
b. If you knew that the pregnancy was a result of failed birth
control, rather than no birth control, would that make any difference?
2. The "shame" in the olden days was not just about pregnancy, but
about women's sexual activity outside of marriage.
a. Do you believe there should be any "shame" attached to
premarital sex that does not result in pregnancy?
b. Is part/most of the shame that the woman was knuckleheaded
enough to get knocked up in an age where birth control is widely
available?
3. If you thought that the pregnant teen was humble, and realized
that she had made a mistake, would that affect your feelings/actions?
> -ginny
--Bryan
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>I remember the Florence Crittenden Homes for Unwed Mothers. If you somehow
>became 'in the family way' you were sent away to have the baby and it was
>put up for adoption. There was shame attached to bringing shame to your
>family. Now pregnant teens are expected and a badge of honor. I suffered
>the wrath of certain family members because I wouldn't hold a 'baby shower'
>for one of the pregnant teens in the extended family. I told them I wasn't
>going to reward her for her behavior. Not only will I not throw one, but I
>will not go to a shower for an 'errant teen'.
Once a pregnant teenager decides to keep and raise her baby, what's the point
of ostracizing or punishing her by denying her simple but significant rituals
like baby showers? Are you saying you refuse on moral principle to be even a
guest at a teenage mother's baby shower even if the girl in question is not
your daughter or relative?
Orlando
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>And what makes you so fucking pure you can make that demand?
And what makes you think you can take the fucking liberty of insulting or
swearing at me without asking if I mind? Regarding my supposed demand, I know
how to run my life; any mistakes I make are my fault. I'm suggesting that the
poor take greater responsibility so that they stop getting fucked over by a
host of parasitic forces chomping at the bit to sell them crap, keep them
living in shitholes, prematurely pregnant, drunk and shooting each other. It's
for their benefit, not mine.
Orlando
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>i don't think conservative rhetoric is designed to fire up the poor to hate
>others. it's designed to fire up others to hate the poor.
Then you haven't spent much time around poor conservatives, who have plenty of
hatred for other races, religions and ethnicities, not to mention homosexuals,
lesbians and liberals.
Orlando
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>1. Would it make a difference if the pregnancy was accidental?
Consentual sex is never accidental and always inherently risky. Anyone who has
sexual intercourse has to deal with the possibility of pregnancy because there
is no entirely fool proof method of preventing it--short of abstinence.
Accidental pregnancies don't get free passes in my ethical universe.
> a. What if it was accidental and the young woman had a moral
>belief against terminating the pregnancy?
If a woman has such a strong moral belief against abortion, she shouldn't have
sex until she's in a financial and emotional position to raise every child she
bears. Once again, opposition to abortion doesn't automatically exonerate
teenage pregnancy because all teenagers have to do to avoid all these morally
confounding questions is have sex in other ways besides traditional intercourse
or abstain from sex until they're older.
> b. If you knew that the pregnancy was a result of failed birth
>control, rather than no birth control, would that make any difference?
All birth control can fail. Just because pregnancy results from birth control
failure doesn't make it more responsible. Any time two fertile people have
sexual intercourse, there is at least a minor risk of pregnancy. People have to
decide to have sex with that risk in mind.
>2. The "shame" in the olden days was not just about pregnancy, but
>about women's sexual activity outside of marriage.
> a. Do you believe there should be any "shame" attached to
>premarital sex that does not result in pregnancy?
No, there should not be any shame attached. But if there is, men and women
should bear it equally.
> b. Is part/most of the shame that the woman was knuckleheaded
>enough to get knocked up in an age where birth control is widely
>available?
Men are even more nuckleheaded for making all these stupid promises to wide
eyed young girls who want to be loved more than they want actual sex. Most
women do not come to love sex at the hands of inexperienced horny teenage boys
saying whatever they must to get into their panties; they tend to discover seal
pleasure with more experienced lovers in their twenties and thirties. All that
said, part of the problem is that sex education is a racket designed by adults
to control adolescent sexuality. Teenagers see through all the hype, the
supposed concern, theologically inspired lectures and medical jargon. All they
see is that they want to screw and their teachers are trying to make it hard.
The first tactic in modern sex ed was human biology, figuring that knowledge
was power and that teenagers would have more responsible sex if they understood
human sexuality. When that didn't work, the focus shifted to disease
prevention; teenagers were now advised to have safe sex in order to minimize
exposure to sexually transmitted diseases, the worst of which was AIDS. When
that failed to work, the religious right stepped in with its old abstinence
standby, which has never worked. All these approaches miss a central fact,
teenagers do not have sex as a result of medical information, religious scare
tactics or even the fear of disease. They have sex as a symbol for other social
and emotional needs such as love, acceptance, adventure, individuation and just
plain curiosity. Most sex ed should be done in pier to pier groups with one or
two years separating the teenage instructors from their fellow students. Adults
too often lose touch with their own initial sexual motivations, blinded by the
desire to protect their young.
>3. If you thought that the pregnant teen was humble, and realized
>that she had made a mistake, would that affect your feelings/actions?
I'm of the opinion that pregnancy for a teenager is enough of a punishment
without further humiliation being heaped on top of it. That said, teenagers
have to take full responsibility as parents if they decide to have sex in the
first place and then keep their babies. Girls should not be encouraged to drop
out of high school for even one day, since that is part of their adolescent
responsibility. Boys should be expected to live with or marry their girlfriends
and have an economic sustenance plan. Failure to produce such a plan should be
legally punished by mandatory probation, counseling and community service.
What we're all avoiding is that there are reasons why poorer teenagers get
pregnant, and the main one is not a correlation between poverty and libido.
Poor teenagers take more sexual risks because sex substitutes for more missing
things. If a young girl's single mother works so hard to make ends meet that
she doesn't have much time to spend with her daughter, or is so strung out on
drugs that she barely keeps her daughter fed and clothed, that young girl is
more vulernable to the transitory and insincere love of a gaggle of sweet
talking Romeos. If a young boy grows up without a father teaching him real
manly values and responsibility, he's going to look to his piers for validation
and try to impress them with sexual conquests. Poor teenagers also have more
sex because their lives feel more bleak and hopeless. Looking around their
neighborhoods, they see few paths to prosperity aside from sports,
entertainment and crime. All the while, they're being pumped full of
advertisements that make them feel socially inferior if they lack the latest
designer clothes, sneakers, jewelry and accessories. Sex to them is free and
glamorous. This is why babies often become badges of honor for girls who feel
they would otherwise amount to nothing. In their minds, they have at least
produced a human life that they can theoretically love better than they were
loved by their families. Boys also derive a sense of status from teenage
pregnancy because if they will likely spend the rest of their lives working for
minimum wage or skirting the edges of crime's fast lane, they have at least
left something behind, a testament to the world that they've counted for
something.
If we as a society got more serious about understanding why teenagers actually
have sex and addressed their wider array of social and emotion needs, they
would turn less to sex and more to other aspects of life where a bright future
feels palpable.
Orlando
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>1. Would it make a difference if the pregnancy was accidental?
Consentual sex is never accidental and always inherently risky. Anyone who has
sexual intercourse has to deal with the possibility of pregnancy because there
is no entirely fool proof method of preventing it--short of abstinence.
Accidental pregnancies don't get free passes in my ethical universe.
> a. What if it was accidental and the young woman had a moral
>belief against terminating the pregnancy?
If a woman has such a strong moral belief against abortion, she shouldn't have
sex until she's in a financial and emotional position to raise every child she
bears. Once again, opposition to abortion doesn't automatically exonerate
teenage pregnancy because all teenagers have to do to avoid all these morally
confounding questions is have sex in other ways besides traditional intercourse
or abstain from sex until they're older.
> b. If you knew that the pregnancy was a result of failed birth
>control, rather than no birth control, would that make any difference?
All birth control can fail. Just because pregnancy results from birth control
failure doesn't make it more responsible. Any time two fertile people have
sexual intercourse, there is at least a minor risk of pregnancy. People have to
decide to have sex with that risk in mind.
>2. The "shame" in the olden days was not just about pregnancy, but
>about women's sexual activity outside of marriage.
> a. Do you believe there should be any "shame" attached to
>premarital sex that does not result in pregnancy?
No, there should not be any shame attached. But if there is, men and women
should bear it equally.
> b. Is part/most of the shame that the woman was knuckleheaded
>enough to get knocked up in an age where birth control is widely
>available?
Men are even more nuckleheaded for making all these stupid promises to wide
eyed young girls who want to be loved more than they want actual sex. Most
women do not come to love sex at the hands of inexperienced horny teenage boys
saying whatever they must to get into their panties; they tend to discover
sexual pleasure with more experienced lovers in their twenties and thirties.
All that said, part of the problem is that sex education is a racket designed
by adults to control adolescent sexuality. Teenagers see through all the hype,
the supposed concern, theologically inspired lectures and medical jargon. All
they see is that they want to screw and their teachers are trying to make it
hard. The first tactic in modern sex ed was human biology, figuring that
knowledge was power and that teenagers would have more responsible sex if they
understood human sexuality. When that didn't work, the focus shifted to disease
prevention; teenagers were now advised to have safe sex in order to minimize
exposure to sexually transmitted diseases, the worst of which was AIDS. When
that failed to work, the religious right stepped in with its old ineffective
abstinence standby. All these approaches miss a central fact, teenagers do not
have sex as a result of medical information, religious scare tactics or even
the fear of disease. They have sex as a symbol for other social and emotional
needs such as love, acceptance, adventure, individuation and just plain
curiosity. Most sex ed should be done in pier to pier groups with one or two
years separating the teenage instructors from their fellow students. Adults too
often lose touch with their own initial sexual motivations, blinded by the
desire to protect their young.
>3. If you thought that the pregnant teen was humble, and realized
>that she had made a mistake, would that affect your feelings/actions?
I'm of the opinion that pregnancy for a teenager is enough of a punishment
without further humiliation being heaped upon them. That said, teenagers have
to take full responsibility as parents if they decide to have sex in the first
place and then keep their babies. Girls should not be encouraged to drop out of
high school for even one day, since that is part of their adolescent
responsibility. Boys should be expected to live with or marry their girlfriends
and have an economic sustenance plan. Failure to produce such a plan should be
legally punished by mandatory probation, counseling and community service.
What we're all avoiding is that there are reasons why poorer teenagers get
pregnant, and the main one is not a correlation between poverty and libido.
Poor teenagers take more sexual risks because sex substitutes for more missing
things. If a young girl's single mother works so hard to make ends meet that
she doesn't have much time to spend with her daughter, or is so strung out on
drugs that she barely keeps her daughter fed and clothed, that young girl is
more vulnerable to the transitory and insincere love of a gaggle of sweet
Michel Boucher
> I'm suggesting that the
> poor take greater responsibility so that they stop getting fucked over
> by a host of parasitic forces chomping at the bit to sell them crap,
> keep them living in shitholes, prematurely pregnant, drunk and
> shooting each other.
Stop kvetching and give them the support they REALLY need and they will. I
have described the experience of some women who, given the proper level of
support, were able to do that. You have the plan, you know it works. The
rest is up to you...or is it?
John Kane
> Gregory Morrow wrote:
> > blake murphy wrote:
>
> >> On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 00:50:18 -0400, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
>
> >>>> yep, being poor, addicted and pregnant is a real day at the beach
> >>>> in this country. i don't know why these people don't clean
> >>>> themselves up and become republicans.
> >>> Not at all my position. I don't know why we as a society don't make
> >>> such people more accountable to themselves, their children and us a
> >>> society, rather than enabling their pathologies with drugs, junk
> >>> food, TV, cash benefits, religion and conservative rhetoric intent
> >>> on firing them up to hate others.
>
> >>> Orlando
> >> i don't think conservative rhetoric is designed to fire up the poor
> >> to hate others. it's designed to fire up others to hate the poor.
>
> > Poor people are stupid so who *really* gives a shit, blake...???
>
> Saw a couple on the news the other night that were having their home
> foreclosed. Bitching about "it ain't right." The reporter plainly stated
> that the couple was given a loan for 125% of the homes actual value,
> there was no credit check, the didn't have to make a down payment. Wow,
> I wonder why they couldn't afford the McMansion they were living in.
Obviously they did not have a clue. OTOH whoever approved that loan
was pretty close to criminally incompetent. Bankers and mortgage
lenders probably should not be let out without a keeper.
>
> Have I been asleep all these years or did some idiot start giving away
> loans to people who couldn't afford to pay for them?
Of course they have. Where have you been for the last 6-8 months
during the financial meltdown?
It was perfectly clear 3 or 4 years ago that the American sub-prime
( i.e. junk ) mortgage market was going to implode. I must admit that
I was surprised just how bad it was and how bad the rest of the
finanical system was but it was clear that there was a nasty real
estate bubble in the USA. I had not realised how bad it was in the UK.
While I'd agree that people getting such mortgages seem pretty stupid,
the banks and other lenders were totally irresponsible to allow such
people to get mortgages. In fact, I'd blame the lenders far more than
many of the mortgagees.
> I have always had to put at least
> 20% down on any home we were buying, had to show a years worth of pay
> stubs or a letter from my employer as to my annual TAKE HOME PAY, not my
> total.
From everything I have seen this had totally collapsed some years
ago. Actually in Canada, even 20 years ago one could buy a house with
10% down. It appears that in the USA and, if I'm reading the news
correctly, the UK, down payments, credit checks etc were abandoned in
favour of writing more mortgages. This was apparently based on the
assumption that housing "always" increased in value. (Otherwise known
as a complete lack of knowledge about history.)
Many borrowers probably did not have the education or knowledge to
understand just what they were getting into and fell for a smooth
sales pitch. I would have thought that the lender would have an
ethical obligation to warn these borrowers of the dangers: Clearly
they did not.
John Kane Kingston ON Canad
blake murphy
> CLAS...@BRICK.NET wrote:
>>1. Would it make a difference if the pregnancy was accidental?
>
> Consentual sex is never accidental and always inherently risky. Anyone who has
> sexual intercourse has to deal with the possibility of pregnancy because there
> is no entirely fool proof method of preventing it--short of abstinence.
> Accidental pregnancies don't get free passes in my ethical universe.
>
i'm sure you've had to turn down sex for ethical reasons countless times.
blake
blake murphy
ask many people who shun pregnant teens what they think about men sucking
cocks.
blake
blake murphy
i'm getting tired of debunking this horseshit:
The revisionists say the problem wasn't too little regulation; but too
much, via CRA. The law was enacted in response to both intentional
redlining and structural barriers to credit for low-income communities. CRA
applies only to banks and thrifts that are federally insured; it's
conceived as a quid pro quo for that privilege, among others. This means
the law doesn't apply to independent mortgage companies (or payday lenders,
check-cashers, etc.)
The law imposes on the covered depositories an affirmative duty to lend
throughout the areas from which they take deposits, including poor
neighborhoods. The law has teeth because regulators' ratings of banks' CRA
performance become public and inform important decisions, notably merger
approvals. Studies by the Federal Reserve and Harvard's Joint Center for
Housing Studies, among others, have shown that CRA increased lending and
homeownership in poor communities without undermining banks' profitability.
But CRA has always had critics, and they now suggest that the law went too
far in encouraging banks to lend in struggling communities. Rhetoric aside,
the argument turns on a simple question: In the current mortgage meltdown,
did lenders approve bad loans to comply with CRA, or to make money?
The evidence strongly suggests the latter. First, consider timing. CRA was
enacted in 1977. The sub-prime lending at the heart of the current crisis
exploded a full quarter century later. In the mid-1990s, new CRA
regulations and a wave of mergers led to a flurry of CRA activity, but, as
noted by the New America Foundation's Ellen Seidman (and by Harvard's Joint
Center), that activity "largely came to an end by 2001." In late 2004, the
Bush administration announced plans to sharply weaken CRA regulations,
pulling small and mid-sized banks out from under the law's toughest
standards. Yet sub-prime lending continued, and even intensified -- at the
very time when activity under CRA had slowed and the law had weakened.
Second, it is hard to blame CRA for the mortgage meltdown when CRA doesn't
even apply to most of the loans that are behind it. As the University of
Michigan's Michael Barr points out, half of sub-prime loans came from those
mortgage companies beyond the reach of CRA. A further 25 to 30 percent came
from bank subsidiaries and affiliates, which come under CRA to varying
degrees but not as fully as banks themselves. (With affiliates, banks can
choose whether to count the loans.) Perhaps one in four sub-prime loans
were made by the institutions fully governed by CRA.
<http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=did_liberals_cause_the_subprime_crisis>
...so, no, the mortgage crisis was *not* caused by jimmy carter and barney
'franks.' please peddle this crap elsewhere.
blake
Ed Pawlowski
"Virginia Tadrzynski" <ta...@enter.net> wrote in message
> I remember the Florence Crittenden Homes for Unwed Mothers. If you
> somehow became 'in the family way' you were sent away to have the baby and
> it was put up for adoption. There was shame attached to bringing shame to
> your family. Now pregnant teens are expected and a badge of honor.
A fellow at work told me his 20 yo daughter is pregnant. "She called me
last night and after I congratulated her. . . . . ."
WTF? How do you congratulate your daughter for getting knocked up? Plenty
of birth control available today, but the pregnancy rate is still very high
for teenagers and other unwed girls.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>i'm sure you've had to turn down sex for ethical reasons countless times.
I have never had sex with anyone without discussing what we'd do if pregnancy
occurred. In many cases, the women insisted they'd have abortions and I was
okay with that. But I at least brought up the issue rather than scramble to
find a solution if pregnancy befell us.
Orlando
Gregory Morrow
I never got preggers from *that*, blake...heehee...
;-D
--
Best
Greg
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>ask many people who shun pregnant teens what they think about men sucking
>cocks.
Shock value aside, the issue here, at least to me, is not what God condones or
condemns, but rather what is best for parents and children alike. Children know
when they're unwanted and unloved, which is often the case with so-called
accidental pregnancies. How can those feelings possibly be good?
Orlando
Dave Smith
>
> I have never had sex with anyone without discussing what we'd do if pregnancy
> occurred. In many cases, the women insisted they'd have abortions and I was
> okay with that. But I at least brought up the issue rather than scramble to
> find a solution if pregnancy befell us.
Things seem to have changed along the way. Sex out of wedlock used to be
a taboo, though one of those taboos that people often liked to be able
enjoy as long as they got away with it, but getting pregnant was a major
moral faux pas. There are lots of girls these days who actually try to
get pregnant. I was stunned to hear that a girl I used to know was
trying to get pregnant. She was a bit of a sad case and her boy friend
was a loser. The whole family were losers and sucking on the public
teat. The father told me about her plans and seemed oddly proud of her
plan. She was heading into the second year of her college program, so
her education would be derailed. I couldn't understand why she wouldn't
wait until graduation, or at least toward the end of the year so that
she could at least get her diploma first. This sort of thinking is
foreign to me.
brooklyn1
>
> ask many people who shun pregnant teens what they think about men
> sucking cocks.
>
>
were instructed that to avoid pregnancy that you warned not to swallow...
but you're a greedy little mick. LOL
Gregory Morrow
Heehee, Sheldon...
;-D
I think it was something along the lines of if a gal swallows a watermelon
seed a watermelon will grow in her belly, if she swallows semen a baby will
grow in her belly...
Who knows, maybe that's the reason why I don't many Jewish gals who like
watermelon - or like to swallow their hubby's "man-seed"...!!!
--
Best
Greg
brooklyn1
"Orlando Enrique Fool" wrote
>
> I have never had sex with anyone without discussing what we'd do if
> pregnancy
> occurred.
Then you're gay.
> In many cases, the women insisted they'd have abortions and I was
> okay with that. But I at least brought up the issue rather than scramble
> to
> find a solution if pregnancy befell us.
>
>
Now I might be persuaded to believe a lot of horseshit, but not a word of
that fercocktah story... because anyone who had that discussion didn't get
laid. So how many women here have told guys "Oh, I ain't on the pill and we
don't need any stinkin' condoms, just hurry up and fuck me, whenever I get
pregnant I have abortions". I've probably used every line in the books to
get into some gals pants but I have no doubt whatsoever that any mention of
that A word and I wouldn't even get any titty. LOL
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>Things seem to have changed along the way. Sex out of wedlock used to be
>a taboo, though one of those taboos that people often liked to be able
>enjoy as long as they got away with it, but getting pregnant was a major
>moral faux pas. There are lots of girls these days who actually try to
>get pregnant. I was stunned to hear that a girl I used to know was
>trying to get pregnant. She was a bit of a sad case and her boy friend
>was a loser. The whole family were losers and sucking on the public
>teat. The father told me about her plans and seemed oddly proud of her
>plan. She was heading into the second year of her college program, so
>her education would be derailed. I couldn't understand why she wouldn't
>wait until graduation, or at least toward the end of the year so that
>she could at least get her diploma first. This sort of thinking is
>foreign to me.
The girl obviously feels she needs to be a mother and that pregnancy will
enrich her life. The question is why?
Orlando
Goomba
> The girl obviously feels she needs to be a mother and that pregnancy will
> enrich her life. The question is why?
>
> Orlando
And feeling a need doesn't mean it has to be acted on. Look at Octomom! Ugh!
Dave Smith
Perhaps she couldn't resist the urge to try to do better than her
parents. The father was always claiming to look for work and sabotaging
every job he got. The mother was a cow who fed her family Kraft dinner
and then went next door to eat in a restaurant on her own. Her younger
sister had a habit of making allegations of sexual assault, and almost
got arrested for public mischief after on of her false reports.
Never the less, this girl managed to get pregnant and then she and her
loser of a boyfriend were planning to move in with the parents... who
were on welfare. It is a different set of moral standards and personal
expectations than I was raised with.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>And feeling a need doesn't mean it has to be acted on. Look at Octomom! Ugh!
I didn't say the girl's feelings should be acted upon, but no one can hope to
help her without first understanding her motivations. She knows it makes no
sense to get pregnant before she finishes college. So, if she's in a rush to do
it, something else must be going on. Does she not want to finish? Does she feel
a stronger call toward maternity than scholarship? Is this an act of rebellion?
Orlando
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>Perhaps she couldn't resist the urge to try to do better than her
>parents. The father was always claiming to look for work and sabotaging
>every job he got. The mother was a cow who fed her family Kraft dinner
>and then went next door to eat in a restaurant on her own.
That is especially cruel!
>Her younger sister had a habit of making allegations of sexual assault, and almost got arrested for public mischief after one of her false reports.
What is public mischief? I don't believe I've ever heard that phrase before.
>Never the less, this girl managed to get pregnant and then she and her
>loser of a boyfriend were planning to move in with the parents... who
>were on welfare. It is a different set of moral standards and personal
>expectations than I was raised with.
You and I both. How can that life hold any appeal? I would think that this
girl's generation would aim high, far and away.
Orlando
Bobo Bonobo®
Hey, Orlando. Email me. OK?
>
> Orlando
--Bryan
blake murphy
you must have been a riot in barrooms.
blake
blake murphy
she's his daughter, for god's sake. is he supposed to throw her out into
the driving snow?
blake
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>you must have been a riot in barrooms.
Actually, I've never enjoyed myself there, partially because I think it's a
racket to pay retail for alcohol.
Orlando
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>she's his daughter, for god's sake. is he supposed to throw her out into
>the driving snow?
I agree with Blake here. The damage is already done. Why shun her for it? She's
not going to learn any new lessons that way. Besides, the time to teach her
anything would have been before she got pregnant.
Orlando
ChattyCathy
Heh. I am sure your presence was sorely missed.
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
Dave Smith
There is a huge difference between congratulating her and throwing her
into the driving snow. You can offer some support, but still make it
known that you think it was inappropriate, that she should not be
getting pregnant and having a kid she cannot support.
ChattyCathy
> blakepm...@verizon.net wrote:
>>she's his daughter, for god's sake. is he supposed to throw her out
>>into the driving snow?
>
> I agree with Blake here. The damage is already done. Why shun her for
> it? She's not going to learn any new lessons that way.
How very generous of you...
> Besides, the time to teach her anything would have been before she got
> pregnant.
Oh, BS. You can give teenagers as much sex education as you like - heck,
you can give them a gazillion free birth control pills/condoms and yet
they still 'get pregnant' <Gawd, how I hate that term - you'd think
that immaculate conception happened every other day, instead of every
2000 years or so..>.
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>There is a huge difference between congratulating her and throwing her
>into the driving snow. You can offer some support, but still make it
>known that you think it was inappropriate, that she should not be
>getting pregnant and having a kid she cannot support.
What good is telling her that if she's already pregnant and will have the
child? It's too little, too late.
Orlando
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>You can give teenagers as much sex education as you like - heck,
>you can give them a gazillion free birth control pills/condoms and yet
>they still 'get pregnant' <Gawd, how I hate that term - you'd think
>that immaculate conception happened every other day, instead of every
>2000 years or so..>.
Which further proves my point. People have always thought that teenagers don't
want to get pregnant, but that they lacked information about birth control and
condoms. Now, they can usually get the pill and free condoms in most states,
but they still get pregnant, which suggests to the suggestable that perhaps
they actually want to get pregnant most of the times when they in fact do.
Orlando
ChattyCathy
Are you planning run for public office? Yes? Thought so.
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
Kathleen
Sometimes. Maybe.
But I sub at our alternative high school and what I've mostly seen is
that they have some rudimentary understanding of how conception works,
mixed up with various myths and old wive's tales (you can't get pregnant
if it's your first time). Add in christian abstinence teaching - "Just
don't. If you even think about doing it, if you take precautions in
advance, if you insist that he take precautions, YOU ARE A SLUT", and
you've got a girl primed to be "caught up in the moment".
Sigh.
And then you're a pregnant slut and doing the best you can not to add
insult to injury.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>But I sub at our alternative high school and what I've mostly seen is
>that they have some rudimentary understanding of how conception works,
>mixed up with various myths and old wive's tales (you can't get pregnant
>if it's your first time). Add in christian abstinence teaching - "Just
>don't. If you even think about doing it, if you take precautions in
>advance, if you insist that he take precautions, YOU ARE A SLUT", and
>you've got a girl primed to be "caught up in the moment".
>Sigh.
>And then you're a pregnant slut and doing the best you can not to add
>insult to injury.
I sympathize with the conundrum. Clearly, giving up sex education entirely
won't help correct these urban myths and old wives' tales. But, all these
corrective efforts are not working and I think it has something to do with the
education's source. Teenagers almost instinctively want to do the opposite of
what they're taught in sex ed, almost as an act of sheer rebellion and
individuation. That is why I think pier-to-pier education works better in the
long run.
Orlando
Dave Smith
It may prepare her for the response the next time it happens.
Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq.
Watch a lot of Maury Povich? "Im 14 years old and I WANT to have a baby!".
I WANTED to drive a car and drink beer like the big boys when i was 14
years old! Fortunately there was a social structure in place to stop me
doing so.
We force people to receive various vaccines, why not some form of
chemically induced birth control at puberty, and then make both males
and females take classes in parenting & prove they not only really want
children, but stand a reasonable chance of taking care of them.
Of course that would only really be helpful in American society if we
fixed a bunch of other problems, teen age pregnancy or any unwanted
pregnancy is just a symptom of. And even if we managed to get rid of
the more blatant ills of society in America there would still be the
rest of the world out there where in many respects its even worse than
the bacchanalian debauchery that is America (and all "the west":).
Here's some more philosophizing, that for all its esotericism, and
archaisms, and for how ever else any individual may legitimately
categorize it, is definitively NOT, bovine fecal matter or neo pagan
philosophizing:)
DE FUNDAMENTIS CIVITATIS
Say not, o my Son, that in this Argument I have set Limits to individual
Freedom. For each Man in this State which I purpose is fulfilling his
own true Will by his eager Acquiescence in the Order necessary to the
Welfare of all, and therefore of himself also. But see thou well to it
that thou set high the Standard of Satisfaction, and that to everyone
there be a surplus of Leisure and of Energy, so that, his Will of
Self-Preservation being fulfilled by the Performance of his Function in
the State, he may devote the remainder of his Powers to the Satisfaction
of the other Parts of his Will. And because the People are oft times
unlearned, not understanding Pleasure, let them be instructed in the Art
of Life; to prepare Food palatable and wholesome, each to this own
Taste, to make Clothes according to Fancy, with Variety of Individuality
and to practise the manifold Crafts of Love. There Things being first
secured, thou mayst afterward lead them into the Heavens of Poesy and
Tale, of Music, Painting, and Sculpture, and into the Lore of the Mind
itself, with its insatiable Joy of all knowledge. Thence let them soar!
DE LIBERATATE IUVENUM
O thou that art the Child of mine own Bowels, how shall I write to thee
concerning Children? For herein is the Gordian Knot in our whole Rope of
Wisdom, and it may not be severed by Sword, no, not of a Greater than
Alexander the Two-Horned. And it is a Balance like that of the Egg, and
the Violence of a Columbus will but crack the tender Shell which we must
first of all preserve.
Now Sentinel to this Fortress standeth a certain Paradox of general
Application, and in this large Order I will declare it, so that its
particular Sense may enlighten thee hereafter. And this is the Paradox,
that there are Bonds which lead to Slavery, and Bonds which lead to
Freedom.
[Ed. Note: "there are truths that enslave and lies that liberate."]
We are all bound in many Fetters by Environment, and it is for ourselves
in great Part to determine whether they shall enslave us or emancipate
us. And I will make clear this Thesis to thee by the Way of Illustration.
Consider the Bond of a cold Climate, how it maketh Man a Slave; he must
have Shelter and Food with fierce Toil. Yet hereby he becometh strong
against the Elements, and his moral Force waxeth, so that he is Master
of such Men as live in Lands of Sun where bodily Needs are satisfied
without Struggle.
Consider also him that willeth to exceed in Speed or in Battle, how he
denieth himself the Food he craveth, and all Pleasures natural to him,
putting himself under the harsh Order of a Trainer. So by this Bondage
he hath, at the last, his Will.
Now then the one by natural, and the other by voluntary, Restriction
have come each to greater Liberty. This is also a general Law of
Biology, for all Development is Structuralization; that is, a Limitation
and Specialization of an originally indeterminate Protoplasm, which
latter may therefore be called free, in the Definition of a Pedant.
Long, o my Son, hath been this Digression from the plain Path of my Word
concerning Children; but it was most needful that thou shouldst
understand the Limits of true Liberty. For that is not the Will of any
Man which ultimateth in his own Ruin and that of all his Fellows; and
that is not Liberty whose Exercise bringeth him to Bondage. Thou mayst
therefore assume that it is always an essential Part of the Will of any
Child to grow to Manhood or to Womanhood in Health, and his Guardians
may therefore prevent him from ignorantly acting in Opposition
thereunto, Care being always taken to remove the Cause of the Error,
namely, Ignorance, as aforesaid. Thou mayst also assume that it is Part
of the Child's Will to train every Function of the Mind; and the
Guardians may therefore combat the inertia which hinders its
Development. Yet here is much Caution necessary, and it is better to
work by exciting and satisfying any natural Curiosity than by forcing
Application to set Tasks, however obvious this Necessity may appear.
Now in this Training of the Child there is one most dear Consideration,
that I shall impress upon thee as in Conformity with our Holy Experience
in the Way of Truth. And it is this, that since that which can be
thought is not true, every Statement is in some Sense false. Even on the
Sea of pure Reason, we may say that every Statement is in some Sense
disputable, there fore in every Case, even the simplest, the Child
should be taught not only the Thesis, but also its opposite, leaving the
Decision to the Child's own Judgment and good Sense, fortified by
Experience. And this Practice will develop its Power of Thought, and its
Confidence in itself, and its Interest in all Knowledge. But most of all
beware against any Attempt to bias its Mind on any point that lieth
without the Square of ascertained and undisputed Fact. Remember also,
even when thou art most sure, that so were they sure who gave
instruction to the young Copernicus. Pay Reverence also to the Unknown
unto whom thou presumeth to impart the Knowledge; for he may be one
greater than thou.
It is important that thou shouldst understand as early as may be what is
the true Will of the Child in the Matter of his Career. Be thou well
ware of all Ideals and Day-dreams; for the Child is himself, and not thy
Toy. Recall the comic Tragedy of Napoleon and the King of Rome; build
not an House for a wild Goat, nor plant a Forest for the Domain of a
Shark. But be thou vigilant for every Sign, conscious or unconscious of
the Will of the Child, giving him then all Opportunity to pursue the
Path which he thus indicates. Learn this, that he, being young, will
weary quickly of all false Ways, however pleasant they may be to him at
the Outset; but of the true Way he will not weary. This being in this
Manner discovered, thou mayst prepare it for him perfectly; for no Man
can keep open all Roads for ever. And to him making his Choice explain
how one may not travel far on any Road without a general Knowledge of
Things apparently irrelevant. And with that he will understand, and bend
him wisely to his Work.
Consider Love. Here is a Force destructive and corrupting where by
many Men have been lost. Yet without Love Man were not Man. Therefore
thine Uncle Richard Wagner made of our Doctrine a musical Fable, wherein
we see Amfortas, who yielded himself to Seduction, wounded beyond
Healing; Klingsor, who withdraw himself from a like Danger, cast out for
ever from the Mountain of Salvation; and Parsifal, who yielded not, able
to exercise the true Power of Live, and thereby to perform the Miracle
of Redemption. Of this also have I myself written in my Poema called
Adonis. It is the same with Food and Drink, with Exercise, with Learning
itself, the Problem is ever to bring the Appetite into right Relation
with the Will. Thus thou mayst fast or feast; there is no Rule than that
of Balance. And this Doctrine is of general Acceptation among the better
Sort of Men; therefore on thee will I rather impress more carefully the
other Part of my Wisdom, namely, the Necessity of extending constantly
thy Nature to new Mates upon every Plane of Being, so that thou mayst
become the perfect Microcosm, an Image without Flaw of all that is.
I say in sooth, my son, that this Extension of thy Nature is not in
Violation thereof; for it is the Nature of thy Nature to grow
continually. Now there is no Part of Knowledge which is foreign to thee;
yet Knowledge itself is of no avail unless it be assimilated and
co-ordinated into Understanding. Grow therefore, easily and
spontaneously, developing all Parts equally, lest thou become a Monster.
And if one Thing tempt thee overmuch, correct it by Devotion to its
Opposite until Equilibrium be re-established. But seek not to grow by
sudden Determination toward Things that be far from thee; only, if such
a Thing come into thy Thought, construct a Bridge thereunto, and take
firmly the first Step upon the Bridge. I shall explain this. Dost thou
speculate upon the Motives of the Stars, and on their Elements, their
Size and Weight? Then thou must first gain Knowledge of Doctrine
mathematical, of Laws physical and chemical. So then first, that thou
mayst understand clearly the Nature of thine whole Work, map out thy
Mind, and extend its Powers from the essential outwards, from the near
to the far, always with Firmness and great Thoroughness, making every
Link in thy Chain equal and perfect.
Yet this I charge thee with my Might: Live Dangerously. Was not this the
Word of thine Uncle Friedrich Nietzsche? Thy meanest Foe is the Inertia
of the Mind. Men do hate most those things which touch them closely, and
they fear Light, and persecute the Torchbearers. Do thou therefore
analyse most fully all those Ideas which Men avoid; for the Truth shall
dissolve Fear. Rightly indeed Men say that the Unknown is terrible; but
wrongly do they fear lest it become the Known. Moreover, do thou all
Acts of which the common Sort beware, save where thou hast already full
knowledge, that thou mayest learn Use and Control, not falling into
Abuse and Slavery. For the Coward and the Foolhardy shall not live out
their Days. Every Thing has its right Use; and thou art great as thou
hast Use of Things. This is the Mystery of all Art Magick, and thine
Hold upon the Universe. Yet if thou must err, being human, err by excess
of courage rather than of Caution, for it is the Foundation of the
Honour of Man that he dareth greatly. What sayth Quintus Horatius
Flaccus in the third Ode of his First Book? Die thou standing!
DE ARTE MENTIS COLENDI
(1) MATHEMATICA
Now concerning the first Foundation of thy Mind I will say somewhat.
Thou shalt study with Diligence in the mathematics, because thereby
shall be revealed unto thee the Laws of thine own Reason and the
Limitations thereof. This Science manifesteth unto thee thy true Nature
in respect of the Machinery whereby it worketh; and showeth in pure
Nakedness, without Clothing of Personality or Desire, the Anatomy of thy
conscious Self. Furthermore, by this thou mayst understand the Essence
between the Relation of all Things, and the Nature of Necessity, and
come to the Knowledge of Form. For this Mathematics is as it were the
last Veil before the Image of Truth, so that there is no Way better than
our Holy Qabalah, which analyseth all Things soever, and reduceth them
to pure Number; and thus their Natures being no longer coloured and
confused, they may be regulated and formulated in Simplicity by the
Operation of Pure Reason, to thy great Comfort in the Work of our
Transcendental Art, whereby the Many become One.
SEQUITUR
(2) CLASSICA
My son, neglect not in any wise the Study of the Writings of Antiquity,
and that in the original Language. For by this thou shalt discover the
History of the Structure of thy Mind, that is, its Nature regarded as
the last term in a Sequence of Causes and Effects. For thy Mind hath
been built up of these Elements, so that in these Books thou mayst bring
into the Light thine own subconscious Memories. And thy Memory is as it
were the Mortar in the House of thy Mind, without which is no Cohesion
or Individuality possible, so that the Lack thereof is called Dementia.
And these Books have lived long and become famous because they are the
Fruits of ancient Trees whereof thou art directly the Heir, wherefrom
(say I) they are more truly german to thine own Nature than Books of
Collateral Offshoots, though such were in themselves better and wiser.
Yes, o my Son, in these Writings thou mayst study to come to the true
Comprehension of thine own Nature, and that of the whole Universe, in
the Dimension of Time, even as the Mathematic declareth it in that of
Space: That is, of Extension. Moreover, by this Study shall the Child
comprehend the Foundation of Manners: the which, as sayeth one of the
Sons of Wisdom, maketh Man.
SEQUITUR
(3) SCIENTIFICA
Since Time and Space are the Conditions of Mind, these two Studies are
fundamental. Yet there remaineth Causality, which is the Root of the
Actions and Reactions of Nature. This also shalt thou seek ardently,
that thou mayst comprehend the Variety of the Universe, its Harmony and
its Beauty, with the Knowledge of that which compelleth it. Yet this is
not equal to the former two in Power to reveal thee to thy Self; and its
first Use is to instruct thee in the true Method of Advancement in
Knowledge, which is fundamentally, the Observation of the Like and the
Unlike. Also, it shall arouse in thee the Ecstasy of Wonder; and it
shall bring thee to a proper Understanding of Art Magick. For our Magick
is but one of the powers that lie within us undeveloped and unanalysed;
and it is by the Method of Science that it must be made clear, and
available to the Use of Man. Is not this a Gift beyond Price, the Fruit
of a Tree not only of knowledge by to Life? For there is that in Man
which is God, and there is that also which is Dust; and by our Magick we
shall make these twain one Flesh, to the Obtaining of the Empery of the
Universe.
DE MODO QUO OPERET LEX MAGICA
Give Ear attentively, o my Son, while I expound unto thee the true
Doctrine of Magick. Every force acteth, in due Proportion, on all Things
with which it is connected. Thus a burning Forest causes chemical Change
by Combustion, and giveth Heat and Motion to the Air about it by the
Operation of physical Laws, and exciteth thought and Emotion in the Man
whom it reacheth through his Organs of Perception. Consider (even though
it were but Legend) the Fall of the Apple of Isaac Newton, its Effect
upon the Spiritual Destinies of Man! Consider also that no Force cometh
ever to the end of its work! The Air that is moved by my Breath is a
Disturbance or Change of Equilibrium that cannot be fully compensated
and brought to naught, though the ÔøΩons be endless. Who then shall deny
the Possibility of Magick? Well said Frazer, the most learned Doctor of
the College of the Holy Trinity in the University of Cambridge, that
Science was but the Name of any Magick which failed not of its intended
Effect.
--
Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq.
Domine, dirige nos.
Let the games begin!
http://www.dancingmice.net/Karn%20Evil%209.mp3
ChattyCathy
> That is why
> I think pier-to-pier education works better in the long run.
>
> Orlando
Hmmm. Pier-to-pier education.
I can see you got a 'reel' good education there, Orlando.
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy - sorry, couldn't help it.
Bobo Bonobo®
One problem with barrier contraception is that exchanging body fluids
is part of the fun.
>
> Orlando
--Bryan
Michel Boucher
@newsfe04.iad:
> Oh, BS. You can give teenagers as much sex education as you like - heck,
> you can give them a gazillion free birth control pills/condoms and yet
> they still 'get pregnant'
My daughter was allowed to have her boyfriend sleep over at age 17. She
has never gotten pregnant or had an abortion. My argument was that at
least I knew where she was and that she was safe. What more did I need?
What causes girls to become pregnant is the moralizing and paternalistic
attitudes towards their actions. If you recognize they are mature enough
to make their own decisions, then that is what you do. You step away from
the pulpit and let them fly on their own. If you think you're the guardian
of the jade gate, you're sorely mistaken, and likely to become a young
grandparent.
Your job is not to "teach them" or "keep them from getting pregnant", your
job is to love them and support them despite what you may think of their
actions.
--
Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest
of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest
good of everyone. - John Maynard Keynes
enigma
news:vxqxls2ml35y$.1i92scyz...@40tude.net:
both my nieces & a not-quite-SIL had babies 6-7 years ago. all of
them were birth control failures. no method is 100% (not even
abstinence if you believe the bible...). it happens, life goes on.
it's nothing new & prior to the Victorian era, it wasn't really a
social disgrace of any kind.
and, ya know, when i told my parents i was pregnant, they were
ecstatic! i was 46 & they didn't think they were *ever* going to
have a grandchild. and in my opinion, marriage is overrated. i
don't have plans to get involved in it.
lee
Arri London
We have a low-life neighbour across the street.
She lives with her boyfriend/husband's grandmother. Crazy Grandson, as
we all call him, was living with the grandmother (who is old and quite
ill) a couple of years ago because his mother tossed him out. He has two
children by a previous girlfriend. One imagines that that one must be in
bad shape for anyone to have granted *him* custody. He disappeared for a
while but then returned about a year or so ago, new girlfriend in tow.
He did his drug deals in the driveway but the police never follwed up.
She's done prison time; he is currently in state prison. Could be for
any number of charges; he demonstrated enough violent behaviour since
moving in with grandmother. There probably isn't a high school
certificate between them and certainly no recent work history.
In the past 20 months, she has had two children, one by CG. The father
of the second one questionable; CG supposedly had his tubes tied within
that time frame. Second child born while ?Papa was 'away'.
Obviously she is on welfare, with 4 children in the household. So why
would someone with no job or education breed like a sewer rat?
brooklyn1
"Orlando Enrique Fool" wrote:
> blake the mick wrote:
>>you must have been a riot in barrooms.
>
> Actually, I've never enjoyed myself there, partially because I think it's
> a
> racket to pay retail for alcohol.
>
closet boozer... so you readily admit that you're a serious alcoholic. I
knew you were on drugs from your first post... people on drugs never
demonstrate a sense oif humor... you're a user and a loser.
T
of...@verizon.net says...
Interestingly the way my Catholic schools handled sex education was to
inform us about birth control, and explain how big an expense it was to
have a child.
No unexpected pregancies in that group!
ChattyCathy
>
> Your job is not to "teach them" or "keep them from getting pregnant",
> your job is to love them and support them despite what you may think
> of their actions.
>
I think that's what most 'good parents' try to do. However, IMO, some
children/teenagers still 'make mistakes', no matter how good or bad
their parents are (or how well off they are). Seen it myself. I had a
14 y/o classmate who fell pregnant, and she had good parents (I knew
them) - and they were far from poor. They did indeed love and support
her and the baby and made arrangements for her to finish her schooling
after the baby was born.
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
ChattyCathy
>
> If we as a society got more serious about understanding why teenagers
> actually have sex and addressed their wider array of social and
> emotion needs, they would turn less to sex and more to other aspects
> of life where a bright future feels palpable.
Oh, gimme a break. Teenagers have sex because that's what humans do
around that age (and have done so since the dawning of Man). All
those 'extra' hormones that are produced at puberty have something to
do with it too. You can carry on making flowery speeches from your soap
box if you like, but it ain't gonna change a thing, as they say.
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
Gregory Morrow
> Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
>
>>
>> If we as a society got more serious about understanding why teenagers
>> actually have sex and addressed their wider array of social and
>> emotion needs, they would turn less to sex and more to other aspects
>> of life where a bright future feels palpable.
>
> Oh, gimme a break. Teenagers have sex because that's what humans do
> around that age (and have done so since the dawning of Man). All
> those 'extra' hormones that are produced at puberty have something to
> do with it too.
Gee, it looks like it's just not pubescent teens, either:
:o)
"Senator Says He Had Affair With an Aide
By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN
WASHINGTON < Senator John Ensign, Republican of Nevada, admitted Tuesday
that he had an extramarital affair with a member of his campaign staff.
Mr. Ensign led the Republicans� campaign efforts in 2008 and had recently
visited Iowa, apparently contemplating a run for president in 2012.
An aide said that the consensual affair took place between December 2007 and
August 2008, and that the woman worked for Mr. Ensign�s campaign operation,
Ensign for Senate, as well as for a conservative political action committee,
Battleborn PAC, from December 2006 to May 2008. Mr. Ensign is honorary
chairman of the PAC. The woman�s husband was a member of Mr. Ensign�s
official Senate staff. Neither has worked for the senator since May 2008,
the aide said.
Mr. Ensign, 51, is married and has three children. He and his wife, Darlene,
were active for a time in Promise Keepers, a Christian evangelical ministry
that promotes strong families and marriages.
In a statement released by his office in Washington, Mr. Ensign said: �I
take full responsibility for my actions. I know that I have deeply hurt and
disappointed my wife, my children, my family, my friends, my staff and the
people of Nevada who believed in me not just as a legislator but as a
person. I deeply regret and am very sorry for my actions.�
Mr. Ensign�s wife also issued a statement, affirming her commitment to her
husband: �Since we found out last year, we have worked through the
situation, and we have come to a reconciliation. This has been difficult on
both families. With the help of our family and close friends, our marriage
has become stronger. I love my husband.
The Democratic leader in the Senate, Harry Reid, who is Nevada�s senior
senator, issued a statement through a spokesman, Jon Summers, saying: �This
is a very personal matter. Senator Reid�s thoughts are with Senator Ensign
and his family as they go through this difficult time."
ChattyCathy
> ChattyCathy wrote:
>
>> Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> If we as a society got more serious about understanding why
>>> teenagers actually have sex and addressed their wider array of
>>> social and emotion needs, they would turn less to sex and more to
>>> other aspects of life where a bright future feels palpable.
>>
>> Oh, gimme a break. Teenagers have sex because that's what humans do
>> around that age (and have done so since the dawning of Man). All
>> those 'extra' hormones that are produced at puberty have something to
>> do with it too.
>
>
> Gee, it looks like it's just not pubescent teens, either:
>
> :o)
>
> "Senator Says He Had Affair With an Aide
> By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN
No kidding...
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>One problem with barrier contraception is that exchanging body fluids
>is part of the fun.
Believe me, I know; I don't do well with condoms. But, I've used them when
first getting to know partners or when they could not use birth control. Having
an unwanted baby is not as much fun as exchanging bodily fluids.
Orlando
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>Hmmm. Pier-to-pier education.
>I can see you got a 'reel' good education there, Orlando.
What could you possibly mean by that? I know how sex works and have never
gotten a woman pregnant. I was married for six years and am now in a four-year-
and-counting committed relationship. I think that in terms of my life, you'd
better either shut up soon or get ready for a honkin' foot sandwich.
Orlando
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>Obviously she is on welfare, with 4 children in the household. So why
>would someone with no job or education breed like a sewer rat?
Because breeding is all she can do to feel like she's accomplished something. I
can only imagine that she started out like most young girls, dreaming of
glamorous careers and charming princes. Then, her surroundings taught her how
low she could realistically aim and she shrank her dreams to suit her
circumstances. Now, if she can pop out babies, it means at least her body works
correctly. I know that's hard to understand, but it's the first step in
reaching people like her.
Orlando
ChattyCathy
<ROFL> Resorting to threats now? How very adult of you.
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
Bryan
> ChattyCathy <cathy1...@mailinator.com> wrote in news:HFQZl.7463$7C4.4371
> @newsfe04.iad:
>
> > Oh, BS. You can give teenagers as much sex education as you like - heck,
> > you can give them a gazillion free birth control pills/condoms and yet
> > they still 'get pregnant'
>
> My daughter was allowed to have her boyfriend sleep over at age 17. She
> has never gotten pregnant or had an abortion. My argument was that at
> least I knew where she was and that she was safe. What more did I need?
"Sleeping together" does not cause pregnancy. There is nothing that a
young couple can do at midnight, that they could not do at noon, and
have more light to see by. I don't believe that people have more
intercourse because they have more intimacy. If your offspring is at
home, in a somewhat stable pair bond, not out who knows where,
potentially getting hammered (which poses driving risks as well), and
is well informed about sexuality and reproduction, I agree that she's
probably less likely to get pregnant.
>
> What causes girls to become pregnant is the moralizing and paternalistic
> attitudes towards their actions. If you recognize they are mature enough
> to make their own decisions, then that is what you do. You step away from
> the pulpit and let them fly on their own. If you think you're the guardian
> of the jade gate, you're sorely mistaken, and likely to become a young
> grandparent.
Love, trust and openness don't set girls up to have intercourse when
what they're really looking for is affection. What I remeber about
the albeit small sample size of teenage love interests is that vaginal
intercourse was never #1 on their list of the myriad of fun things two
folks can do to give each other pleasure. Kind of like my big sign
that I take out to the Life Chain events that reads:
REDUCE
ABORTION
HAVE MORE
ORAL SEX
Needless to say, it's NOT on their approved list of messages :)
http://www.nationallifechain.org/
They always ask me to leave, but I remind them that I have just as
much right to be out there as they do, and that there's 100+ of them
and one of me, and that I like those odds. It's something I've come
to look forward to each autumn.
>
> Your job is not to "teach them" or "keep them from getting pregnant", your
> job is to love them and support them despite what you may think of their
> actions.
>
> --
>
> Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest
> of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest
> good of everyone. - John Maynard Keynes
--Bryan
Our solution to abortion
Oral sex is...now my love is headed south
Oh my goodness!
--Coathanger Days, The Bonobos
enigma
news:Pq1_l.25917$IP7....@newsfe23.iad:
i had a friend who had a baby a week before her 16th birthday. she
got NO support from her parents, they tossed her out. so she got a
job (with a decent wage doing microassembly. i worked with her),
her own appartment, got her GED, went to college in the evening and
got a degree in chemistry which allowed her to make a higher wage.
she did all of this without any type of welfare, not even food
stamps or WIC.
meanwhile her father was still collecting her social security (he
was disabled, so the kids got SS). when the SS admin found out, he
made *her* pay them back even though she hadn't benefited from his
disception.
i believe that *anyone* can make a mistake, but they can also get
themselves out of the hole as well. perhaps it was easier for her
to pull herself up because she grew up in a middle class family, &
always expected that she'd be paying her own way through life. i
don't know. i do know that both my nieces that got pregnant
accidentally have also worked their ways through college, although
they had the advantage of supportive families as well. free child
care really helps if one has to pay for school, rent & necessities.
that *is* one huge advantage middle class young mothers have over
poor young mothers... if you have a minimum wage job in my area,
you can't afford child care. that's the huge bind, & why so many
women *can't* get off welfare.
lee
> Stu
wrote:
<rant>
I hate to stereotype but we all know when the baby bonus or welfare
cheques arrive. A segment abuses the system, and are off to the
liquor store in a cab the minute the cheques arrive. Many don't
believe they want to get off welfare, there is all kinds of programs
running to promote self esteem and job search techniques. Some
programs even hire people on welfare in the hopes they will get some
training and be better able to find employment.
Literacy seems the biggest draw back, there are now programs in place
to help with this problem. But when many drop out or just quit going
to school in the 7 or 8 grade, there's not much out there for them.
Even MCjobs require high school, so there's not much hope of getting
off welfare without a program schooling adults, many feel that there's
a stigma attached and just don't apply for the programs.
Then there's the ones who work and use the system, or have six or more
kids to receive large baby bonus cheques. What is it teaching their
kids, to work the system for all they're worth which just perpetuates
the cycle of welfare abuse.
Don't get me wrong, I've also heard stories such as the one above, but
they seem far and too few to say that the programs are working.
</rant>
blake murphy
maybe free condoms, but i don't think many teen-age girls have easy access
to birth control pills, at least without parental knowledge and consent.
your pal,
blake
blake murphy
exactly right:
The Centers for Disease Control released a new report today that found that
Mississippi ļæ½now has the nationļæ½s highest teen pregnancy rate, displacing
Texas and New Mexico for that lamentable title.ļæ½ The report found that in
2006, the Mississippi teen pregnancy rate was over 60 percent higher than
the national average and increased 13 percent since the year before.
<http://thinkprogress.org/2009/01/07/teen-pregnancy/>
Teenagers who pledge to remain virgins until marriage are just as likely to
have premarital sex as those who do not promise abstinence and are
significantly less likely to use condoms and other forms of birth control
when they do, according to a study released today.
The new analysis of data from a large federal survey found that more than
half of youths became sexually active before marriage regardless of whether
they had taken a "virginity pledge," but that the percentage who took
precautions against pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases was 10
points lower for pledgers than for non-pledgers.
"Taking a pledge doesn't seem to make any difference at all in any sexual
behavior," said Janet E. Rosenbaum of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of
Public Health, whose report appears in the January issue of the journal
Pediatrics. "But it does seem to make a difference in condom use and other
forms of birth control that is quite striking."
<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/28/AR2008122801588.html>
another case of a preference for ideology over effectiveness, courtesy of
the republicans.
your pal,
blake
blake murphy
'peer-to-peer' education? where do you think they get the rubbish that
they believe? from their peers.
blake
Orlando Enrique Fiol
><ROFL> Resorting to threats now? How very adult of you.
Stupid girl, the foot sandwich will be your own because you're speculating
about my life and are entirely wrong.
Orlando
blake murphy
> Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
>> cath...@mailinator.com wrote:
>>
>>>You can give teenagers as much sex education as you like - heck,
>>>you can give them a gazillion free birth control pills/condoms and yet
>>>they still 'get pregnant' <Gawd, how I hate that term - you'd think
>>>that immaculate conception happened every other day, instead of every
>>>2000 years or so..>.
>>
>> Which further proves my point. People have always thought that teenagers don't
>> want to get pregnant, but that they lacked information about birth control and
>> condoms. Now, they can usually get the pill and free condoms in most states,
>> but they still get pregnant, which suggests to the suggestable that perhaps
>> they actually want to get pregnant most of the times when they in fact do.
>>
>> Orlando
>
> Watch a lot of Maury Povich? "Im 14 years old and I WANT to have a baby!".
>
> I WANTED to drive a car and drink beer like the big boys when i was 14
> years old! Fortunately there was a social structure in place to stop me
> doing so.
>
> We force people to receive various vaccines, why not some form of
> chemically induced birth control at puberty, and then make both males
> and females take classes in parenting & prove they not only really want
> children, but stand a reasonable chance of taking care of them.
>
nice little police state you're proposing here.
we 'force' people (i believe there are religious exceptions) to get
vaccinated because unchecked disease is a public health menace. teen-age
pregnancy is not.
blake
blake murphy
no 'it makes the baby jesus weep'? what kind of shithouse catholic school
they running there?
your pal,
blake
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>i had a friend who had a baby a week before her 16th birthday. she
>got NO support from her parents, they tossed her out. so she got a
>job (with a decent wage doing microassembly. i worked with her),
>her own appartment, got her GED, went to college in the evening and
>got a degree in chemistry which allowed her to make a higher wage.
>she did all of this without any type of welfare, not even food
>stamps or WIC.
We need to hear more accounts like these. Thanks for sharing.
> meanwhile her father was still collecting her social security (he
>was disabled, so the kids got SS). when the SS admin found out, he
>made *her* pay them back even though she hadn't benefited from his
>disception.
She should have made him pay them back for his deception.
> i believe that *anyone* can make a mistake, but they can also get
>themselves out of the hole as well. perhaps it was easier for her
>to pull herself up because she grew up in a middle class family, &
>always expected that she'd be paying her own way through life. i
>don't know. i do know that both my nieces that got pregnant
>accidentally have also worked their ways through college, although
>they had the advantage of supportive families as well. free child
>care really helps if one has to pay for school, rent & necessities.
>that *is* one huge advantage middle class young mothers have over
>poor young mothers... if you have a minimum wage job in my area,
>you can't afford child care. that's the huge bind, & why so many
>women *can't* get off welfare.
>lee
Yet another way in which pro lifers could help improve living conditions for
the already born rather than worry so much about the unborn. But no, that would
involve them actually having to spend time with human beings rather than fight
for them in the abstract.
Orlando
blake murphy
> ChattyCathy <cath...@mailinator.com> wrote in news:HFQZl.7463$7C4.4371
> @newsfe04.iad:
>
>> Oh, BS. You can give teenagers as much sex education as you like - heck,
>> you can give them a gazillion free birth control pills/condoms and yet
>> they still 'get pregnant'
>
> My daughter was allowed to have her boyfriend sleep over at age 17. She
> has never gotten pregnant or had an abortion. My argument was that at
> least I knew where she was and that she was safe. What more did I need?
>
> What causes girls to become pregnant is the moralizing and paternalistic
> attitudes towards their actions. If you recognize they are mature enough
> to make their own decisions, then that is what you do. You step away from
> the pulpit and let them fly on their own. If you think you're the guardian
> of the jade gate, you're sorely mistaken, and likely to become a young
> grandparent.
>
> Your job is not to "teach them" or "keep them from getting pregnant", your
> job is to love them and support them despite what you may think of their
> actions.
it's almost like you're saying here that children aren't a form of
property. what's the matter with you?
your pal,
blake
blake murphy
> i believe that *anyone* can make a mistake, but they can also get
> themselves out of the hole as well. perhaps it was easier for her
> to pull herself up because she grew up in a middle class family, &
> always expected that she'd be paying her own way through life. i
> don't know. i do know that both my nieces that got pregnant
> accidentally have also worked their ways through college, although
> they had the advantage of supportive families as well. free child
> care really helps if one has to pay for school, rent & necessities.
> that *is* one huge advantage middle class young mothers have over
> poor young mothers... if you have a minimum wage job in my area,
> you can't afford child care. that's the huge bind, & why so many
> women *can't* get off welfare.
> lee
good points all, lee.
your pal,
blake
ChattyCathy
Heh, it's been decades since somebody called me a girl. I'm flattered.
However, that being said said, it's not 'pier-to-pier'. A pier is
something one can fish off of (as in fishing 'reel') Gettit now, Mr.
Einstein... um I mean Mr. Enrique Fiol?
But if you wish to be taken even remotely seriously
<snork>, 'peer-to-peer' is the term you were looking for.
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
ChattyCathy
> i believe that *anyone* can make a mistake, but they can also get
> themselves out of the hole as well. perhaps it was easier for her
> to pull herself up because she grew up in a middle class family, &
> always expected that she'd be paying her own way through life. i
> don't know. i do know that both my nieces that got pregnant
> accidentally have also worked their ways through college, although
> they had the advantage of supportive families as well. free child
> care really helps if one has to pay for school, rent & necessities.
> that *is* one huge advantage middle class young mothers have over
> poor young mothers... if you have a minimum wage job in my area,
> you can't afford child care. that's the huge bind, & why so many
> women *can't* get off welfare.
> lee
Quite so.
I think this whole 'saga' got started when somebody mentioned welfare.
Sure, some folks abuse the system - but many don't. As usual, the
behavior of some folks spoil it for the rest.
As for unwanted pregnancies; Orlando keeps yammering on about the *poor*
young women who have unwanted pregnancies - and keeps whining about it.
Like it *never* happens in not-so-poor families. Huh?
Of course, because he never got a girl pregnant himself and was married
for six years, and is now in an on-going four-year relationship with
somebody else, that makes him a real expert on the subject... or does
it?
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
blake murphy
> blake murphy wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:11:30 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>>> "Virginia Tadrzynski" <ta...@enter.net> wrote in message
>>>> I remember the Florence Crittenden Homes for Unwed Mothers. If you
>>>> somehow became 'in the family way' you were sent away to have the baby and
>>>> it was put up for adoption. There was shame attached to bringing shame to
>>>> your family. Now pregnant teens are expected and a badge of honor.
>>> A fellow at work told me his 20 yo daughter is pregnant. "She called me
>>> last night and after I congratulated her. . . . . ."
>>> WTF? How do you congratulate your daughter for getting knocked up? Plenty
>>> of birth control available today, but the pregnancy rate is still very high
>>> for teenagers and other unwed girls.
>>
>> she's his daughter, for god's sake. is he supposed to throw her out into
>> the driving snow?
>
> There is a huge difference between congratulating her and throwing her
> into the driving snow. You can offer some support, but still make it
> known that you think it was inappropriate, that she should not be
> getting pregnant and having a kid she cannot support.
let's just say that your reaction to it seemed less than warm.
blake
blake murphy
> and in my opinion, marriage is overrated. i
> don't have plans to get involved in it.
> lee
it only encourages them.
your pal,
blake
blake murphy
> blakepm...@verizon.net wrote:
>>you must have been a riot in barrooms.
>
> Actually, I've never enjoyed myself there, partially because I think it's a
> racket to pay retail for alcohol.
>
> Orlando
as i say, a regular riot.
blake
blake murphy
> Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
>
>> blakepm...@verizon.net wrote:
>>>you must have been a riot in barrooms.
>>
>> Actually, I've never enjoyed myself there, partially because I think
>> it's a racket to pay retail for alcohol.
>>
>> Orlando
>
> Heh. I am sure your presence was sorely missed.
'would you like to come home with me and see my collection of birth control
devices?'
your pal,
blake
Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq.
blake murphy wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:57:53 -0700, Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq. wrote:
>
>
>>Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
>>
>>>cath...@mailinator.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>You can give teenagers as much sex education as you like - heck,
>>>>you can give them a gazillion free birth control pills/condoms and yet
>>>>they still 'get pregnant' <Gawd, how I hate that term - you'd think
>>>>that immaculate conception happened every other day, instead of every
>>>>2000 years or so..>.
>>>
>>>Which further proves my point. People have always thought that teenagers don't
>>>want to get pregnant, but that they lacked information about birth control and
>>>condoms. Now, they can usually get the pill and free condoms in most states,
>>>but they still get pregnant, which suggests to the suggestable that perhaps
>>>they actually want to get pregnant most of the times when they in fact do.
>>>
>>>Orlando
>>
>>Watch a lot of Maury Povich? "Im 14 years old and I WANT to have a baby!".
>>
>>I WANTED to drive a car and drink beer like the big boys when i was 14
>>years old! Fortunately there was a social structure in place to stop me
>>doing so.
>>
>>We force people to receive various vaccines, why not some form of
>>chemically induced birth control at puberty, and then make both males
>>and females take classes in parenting & prove they not only really want
>>children, but stand a reasonable chance of taking care of them.
>>
>
>
> nice little police state you're proposing here.
:)
*passing the tray of solyent green to Blake* hors d'oeuvre?
Perhaps a 'means test' the government only allowing pregnancy if you can
afford it?
A credit score of 800 or more and your 'free' to procreate:)
>
> we 'force' people (i believe there are religious exceptions) to get
> vaccinated because unchecked disease is a public health menace. teen-age
> pregnancy is not.
We 'force' people to 'learn' how to drive a car, and make them take and
past several 'tests' to do so. And can revoke the PRIVILEGE for
egregious violations of good driving.
Ever heard of Thomas Malthus?
http://desip.igc.org/malthus/principles.html
--
Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq.
Domine, dirige nos.
Let the games begin!
http://www.dancingmice.net/Karn%20Evil%209.mp3
blake murphy
> "Orlando Enrique Fool" wrote:
>> blake the mick wrote:
>>>you must have been a riot in barrooms.
>>
>> Actually, I've never enjoyed myself there, partially because I think it's
>> a
>> racket to pay retail for alcohol.
>>
> You drink at home all alone without benefit of social contact... you're a
> closet boozer... so you readily admit that you're a serious alcoholic. I
> knew you were on drugs from your first post... people on drugs never
> demonstrate a sense oif humor... you're a user and a loser.
maybe so, but i've never seen a bar that served crystal palace, even as a
rail drink.
blake
blake murphy
> Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
>
>>
>> If we as a society got more serious about understanding why teenagers
>> actually have sex and addressed their wider array of social and
>> emotion needs, they would turn less to sex and more to other aspects
>> of life where a bright future feels palpable.
>
> Oh, gimme a break. Teenagers have sex because that's what humans do
> around that age (and have done so since the dawning of Man). All
> those 'extra' hormones that are produced at puberty have something to
> do with it too. You can carry on making flowery speeches from your soap
> box if you like, but it ain't gonna change a thing, as they say.
people forget that adolescence is pretty much a modern invention. in days
of old teens weren't cooped up at school and under the pernicious influence
of their parents all those years.
your pal,
blake