French Bread Success
Jack Wagner
to what I had in Paris and kneading my own dough for this simple "pain
ordinaire', I finally got a bread machine to assist me. I use it now to
knead my dough. I cannot begin tell you what a difference it makes. I had
no idea how poorly my hand-kneading was in forming the necessary gluten
needed for a light airy loaf. It makes all the difference (and not only
for French Bread!).
I also found a new recipe for French Bread and followed it to the
letter. I was a bit apprehensive because after the bread machine had it's
go it was a bit sticky. So I added only the lightest bit of flour when
rolling it out after rising. I also had bought a French bread pan from
Chicago cutlery. This worked great. I am amazed that finally I got this
simple recipe down. I am eating slices of this bread now and I fell
compelled to share what I think are the key aspects that I have came accross
in my "quest".
1. The recipe I used was 3.5 cups flour, 2.5 tsp dry Rapid Rise yeast, 1.5
tsp salt and 1 2/3 cups water.
2. Kead the dough as thourougly as possible--USE A BREAD MACHINE OR
MIXER!!!!
3. The dough should be a bit "wet" or sticky when you take it out of the
machine.
4. I used a French Bread cooking pan (they sell baugette pans as well, but
any perforated pizza pan will work too)
5. I let it rise once for 2 hours, once again for 1 hour and then I formed
it into loafs and placed them onto the bread pan. I let these rise for
about another hour (+) --until they looked like full size loafs. I cut
diagonal slits on top very carefully.
6. I DID NOT use a cooking/pizza stone. This was my problem for so long.
I always tried to transfer a risen loaf to the hot pizza stone and it ALWAYS
collapsed into some depressing formless heap. Now I let it rise well on the
French Bread pan and put it into the pre-heated oven. (I preheated the oven
to 430 degrees.)
7. I threw a full cup of water into the preheated oven--seconds after
putting the bread in. This created enough steam for the perfect crust. I
forced myself to keep the oven shut for the first 10-12 minutes.
8. The bread was on the upper 1/3 of the oven.
9. I took the bread out when it had the right color. I must have been
17-20 minutes. I was concentrating on the shape and color so I forgot to
time the exact cooking time. I used an electric oven.
10. I controlled myself and did not touch or cut the bread until 40 minutes
after I took it out of the oven.
FYI I am a military NCO and don't usually cook. This was a challenge to
me because I just fell in love with French & European Breads and I am very
happy that I finally can produce something that is pretty darn close to what
you can get in Parisian bistros.
Jack
Bob Becker
"Jack Wagner" <wag...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:thtqre6...@corp.supernews.com...
> After almost a year of unsuccessfully trying to make French
bread similiar
> to what I had in Paris and kneading my own dough for this
simple "pain
> ordinaire', I finally got a bread machine to assist me. I use
it now to
MACHINE OR
> MIXER!!!!
Jack, Jack, Jack.....
This takes all the eroticism out of the
True Baking Process (tm).
A machine??????
Joseph Kaplan
struggling to get it right. Joe p.s. forget about the negative comments on
using a machine. Why drive 60 miles, when you can walk.
Jack Wagner <wag...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:thtqre6...@corp.supernews.com...
Scott
"Jack Wagner" <wag...@charter.net> wrote:
> 7. I threw a full cup of water into the preheated oven--seconds after
> putting the bread in. This created enough steam for the perfect crust. I
> forced myself to keep the oven shut for the first 10-12 minutes.
Let me see if I read this correctly... you tossed a full cup of water
into the oven??? No adverse effects (electrical shorts, et al)?
Sue
healthy for the oven!
Scott <Heim...@spamless.invalid> wrote in message
news:Heimdall-F35410...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
Bob Becker
"Scott" <Heim...@spamless.invalid> wrote in message
news:Heimdall-F35410...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
I wondered about that, too. I just put a small pan of
hot water on one of the lower racks while the bread is
baking. Seems to work OK.
Any other techniques to get the steam to the bread that
I don't know about?
Joe Yudelson
one or two cups of water into it while it was hot. I now brush the loaves
with water before putting them into the stove and the crust comes out very
crisp and the oven seems O.K.
Joe
Joseph Kaplan
this. Joe
Sue <hard2get...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:v59X6.91836$DG1.15...@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com...
Bob Y.
<jyud...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>Hi: I ruined several electronic circuits in my electric stove by throwing
>one or two cups of water into it while it was hot. I now brush the loaves
>with water before putting them into the stove and the crust comes out very
>crisp and the oven seems O.K.
>
>Joe
Rather than tossing in a cup of water, toss a few ice cubes on the
floor of the oven. Saw Jaques Pepin do that and it seemed to work for
him.
The Old Bear
I bought a 98-cent plastic spray bottle. (You could recycle any spray bottle
as long as you cleaned it very well.) I keep it filled with water next
to the stove. A couple of sprays of water aimed at the *sides* of a hot
oven produce mucho steam and can be done quicky and as frequently as needed.
Just don't spray water on the bread itself. That won't turn to steam and
will just make the surface of the dough wet.
Cheers,
The Old Bear
Alan Zelt
How about we compromise on this and keep everyone safe. When you turn on
the oven to warm it up, put in a roasting pan on the floor of the oven.
After you push in your dough, either throw a few cubes into the pan or a
pre-heated cup of water.(either way, be very careful so that you do not
get hit in arms or face with the water/steam).
--
alan
Eliminate FINNFAN on reply.
"The pleasure of the table reigns among other pleasures, and it is
the last to console when others are lost."
--Brillat-Savarin
Alan Zelt
Water on the dough is one of the ways to create a shiny crust. Others
include using a water/egg white mix, egg yolk, and corn starch solution.
Spraying just the bread will do nothing for causing the dough to rise up
in the first few minutes. All this is done in an effort to mimic the
injected steam of the professional (sigh!) oven.
Reminds me that at the last home show that we attended, we saw the
newest Gagenau(sp) home oven. It included steam injection. All for a
mere $4,000.
Joseph Kaplan
for heating frozen pizza for fast food joints. That if it's what I think it
is. Ask the people at the supply store, specialty stores usually offer good
advice. Joe
rpm <n...@goaway.com> wrote in message
news:LKRX6.57938$tb6.15...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
> X-No-Archive: yes
> In article <oldbear.88...@arctos.com>, old...@arctos.com (The Old
Bear) wrote:
> >Bob Y. <rdy...@wcc.net> writes:
> >
> >>From: Bob Y. <rdy...@wcc.net>
> >>Newsgroups: rec.food.baking
> >>Subject: Re: French Bread Success
> >>Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:55:23 -0500
> >>
> >>"Joe Yudelson" <jyud...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>Hi: I ruined several electronic circuits in my electric stove by
throwing
> >>>one or two cups of water into it while it was hot. I now brush the
loaves
> >>>with water before putting them into the stove and the crust comes out
very
> >>>crisp and the oven seems O.K.
> >>>
> >>>Joe
> >>
> >>Rather than tossing in a cup of water, toss a few ice cubes on the
> >>floor of the oven. Saw Jaques Pepin do that and it seemed to work for
> >>him.
> >
> >I bought a 98-cent plastic spray bottle. (You could recycle any spray
bottle
> >as long as you cleaned it very well.) I keep it filled with water next
> >to the stove. A couple of sprays of water aimed at the *sides* of a hot
> >oven produce mucho steam and can be done quicky and as frequently as
needed.
>
>
> I've been doing that. I'm concerned that I'm letting out too much heat
each
> time I open the oven door.
>
> While we're on the topic...I'd really like to get closer to being able to
make
> bakery quality breads. Mine are okay but I'm just not getting the crusts
I
> want. Everyone seems to say that this is due to the steam injection that
> commercial ovens use. I'll buy that. I cannot afford one. I was at our
> local restaurant supply store the other day and I saw a small pizza oven.
> You've seen pizza ovens, right? Long doors, short oven cavities. Same
thing
> but smaller. Any opinions on how this would work for baking bread? I'm
> thinking of trying it. Worst case scenario, I learn how to throw dough
and
> start yet another cooking related hobby.
>
> Tim
>
> Lisa, if you don't like your job you don't strike. You just go in
> every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way.
> - Homer Simpson
Charlie Sorsby
rpm <n...@goaway.com> wrote:
[...]
= local restaurant supply store the other day and I saw a small pizza oven.
= You've seen pizza ovens, right? Long doors, short oven cavities. Same thing
= but smaller. Any opinions on how this would work for baking bread?
Are the pizza ovens steam injection ovens also?
[...]
--
Best regards,
Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby Edgewood, NM "I'm the NRA!"
c...@swcp.com www.swcp.com/~crs USA Life Member since 1965
Charlie Sorsby
Bob Becker <b...@becker.org> wrote:
=
= "Scott" <Heim...@spamless.invalid> wrote in message
= news:Heimdall-F35410...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
= > In article <thtqre6...@corp.supernews.com>,
= > "Jack Wagner" <wag...@charter.net> wrote:
= >
= > > 7. I threw a full cup of water into the preheated
= oven--seconds after
[...]
= > Let me see if I read this correctly... you tossed a full cup of
= > water
= > into the oven??? No adverse effects (electrical shorts, et al)?
=
= I wondered about that, too. I just put a small pan of
= hot water on one of the lower racks while the bread is
= baking. Seems to work OK.
Years ago when I had gas stove, I tossed water into the bottom (in
addition, as I recall, to having a pan of it). Clearly, there's
nothing to short out on the bottom of a *gas* oven but it did
somewhat warp the bottom of the oven.
Now I'm stuck with an electric stove (bloody all-electric house
that I'm renting) and, so, have to be more careful. I either use
the pan technique that you describe or just set an empty vegetable-
can of water on the oven floor.
= Any other techniques to get the steam to the bread that
= I don't know about?
I have a plan... ;} Don't know if it will work or not but one of
these days I'm going to try it.
The electric stove where I'm renting has a vent at the top of the
stove--it's a cylindrical tube at the center of the right, rear,
"burner" (Can you tell that I'm a gas stove guy? :) that penetrates
to the oven interior. Not sure what its purpose is but I seem to
remember that all ovens have such a vent somewhere.
I recently bought a cheap pressure cooker on special at KMart or
some such place. It's one of the "sauce-pan" variety. When I
figure out how to connect some tubing between the vent of the
pressure cooker and a piece of (e.g. copper) tubing that I can
stick through the oven vent, I plan to boil water in the cooker
with the tubing connected to the lid vent and penetrating into
the oven through the oven vent. I guess, to turn off my steam
injection, all I'll need to do is to lift the pressure cooker so
that it pulls the tubing out of the oven vent.
I wonder if the pressure-cooker vent uses the same thread as
standard brass plumbing fittings? Then I could just try to find
a brass fitting with male threads on one end to mate with the hole
in the lid of the pressure cooker and with a copper-tubing flare
fitting on the other end... I guess that would be asking a lot...
I don't know if this will create enough steam to do the job or not.
I guess if it doesn't I'll have to think of some other application
for my $20 pressure cooker... If I ever get it going, I'll let
y'all know.
Charlie Sorsby
The Old Bear <old...@arctos.com> wrote:
=
= I bought a 98-cent plastic spray bottle. (You could recycle any spray bottle
= as long as you cleaned it very well.) I keep it filled with water next
= to the stove. A couple of sprays of water aimed at the *sides* of a hot
= oven produce mucho steam and can be done quicky and as frequently as needed.
=
= Just don't spray water on the bread itself. That won't turn to steam and
= will just make the surface of the dough wet.
That's what I'm presently doing although in this dry climate, I
also spray the surface of the bread before I put it in. I sometimes
put the pan of water in the bottom of the oven as well. I generally
open the oven and re-spray several times during the first fifteen
or twenty minutes of baking.
Just a reminder: The steam/moisture doesn't itself create the crisp
crust; it keeps the crust from forming during the first fraction of
the baking time so that you don't have a crisp crust a quarter of
an inch thick... Well, an eighth of an inch, anyway.... Thus,
during the remaining baking time, the oven heat is only able to dry
out a thin layer and, do, form the thin, crisp, crust layer so
preferred.
Ophelia
to cut it;))
Maybe you could attach a hose to a kettle spout and keep it boiling.
Ophelia
"Charlie Sorsby" <c...@swcp.com> wrote in message
news:9goqg9....@quail.home...
Alan Zelt
>
> X-No-Archive: yes
> In article <7hpqg9....@quail.home>, c...@swcp.com wrote:
> >In article <oldbear.88...@arctos.com>,
> >The Old Bear <old...@arctos.com> wrote:
> >=
> >= I bought a 98-cent plastic spray bottle. (You could recycle any spray bottle
> >= as long as you cleaned it very well.) I keep it filled with water next
> >= to the stove. A couple of sprays of water aimed at the *sides* of a hot
> >= oven produce mucho steam and can be done quicky and as frequently as needed.
> >=
> >= Just don't spray water on the bread itself. That won't turn to steam and
> >= will just make the surface of the dough wet.
> >
> >That's what I'm presently doing although in this dry climate, I
> >also spray the surface of the bread before I put it in. I sometimes
> >put the pan of water in the bottom of the oven as well. I generally
> >open the oven and re-spray several times during the first fifteen
> >or twenty minutes of baking.
> >
> >Just a reminder: The steam/moisture doesn't itself create the crisp
> >crust; it keeps the crust from forming during the first fraction of
> >the baking time so that you don't have a crisp crust a quarter of
> >an inch thick... Well, an eighth of an inch, anyway.... Thus,
> >during the remaining baking time, the oven heat is only able to dry
> >out a thin layer and, do, form the thin, crisp, crust layer so
> >preferred.
> >
> >
>
>
> Tim
>
> Lisa, if you don't like your job you don't strike. You just go in
> every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way.
> - Homer Simpson
If you want the crust, you want the steam. Just open the oven door when
time is up, and let it finish off for another couple of minutes. Steam
is a must for the crust. It also gives the dough the initial bounce
during the first five minutes.
Bob Becker
"Alan Zelt" <alz...@worldnet.att.netFINNFAN> wrote in message
news:3B3193FB...@worldnet.att.netFINNFAN...
>
> If you want the crust, you want the steam. Just open the oven
door when
> time is up, and let it finish off for another couple of
minutes. Steam
> is a must for the crust. It also gives the dough the initial
bounce
> during the first five minutes.
Would you explain the last sentence, please?
I don't understand "initial bounce" part.
Thanks.
The Old Bear
>Newsgroups: rec.food.baking
>From: n...@goaway.com (rpm)
>Subject: Re: French Bread Success
>Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 06:37:18 GMT
>
>Alan Zelt <alz...@worldnet.att.netFINNFAN> wrote:>>rpm wrote:
>>>
>>> c...@swcp.com wrote:
>>> >
>>> >The Old Bear <old...@arctos.com> wrote:
>>> > =
>>> > = Just don't spray water on the bread itself. That won't turn to
>>> > = steam and will just make the surface of the dough wet.
>>> >
>>> >Just a reminder: The steam/moisture doesn't itself create the crisp
>>> >crust; it keeps the crust from forming during the first fraction of
>>> >the baking time so that you don't have a crisp crust a quarter of
>>> >an inch thick... Well, an eighth of an inch, anyway.... Thus,
>>> >during the remaining baking time, the oven heat is only able to dry
>>> >out a thin layer and, do, form the thin, crisp, crust layer so
>>> >preferred.
>>>
>>> So if I want a thicker crust I should skip the steam?
>>
>>If you want the crust, you want the steam. Just open the oven door when
>>time is up, and let it finish off for another couple of minutes. Steam
>>is a must for the crust. It also gives the dough the initial bounce
>>during the first five minutes.
>
>
>You guys are saying two different things. Or I'm missing the point.
Yep, we're saying different things. I stongly disagree with the statement
"The steam/moisture doesn't itself create the crisp crust; it keeps the
crust from forming during the first fraction of the baking time."
As I understand the physics of it, the steam-filled oven transfers heat
much more quickly to the baking bread than a dry oven. Professional
ovens inject steam which is under pressure and hence is "super-heated"
to a temperature above that of ordinary 100-degree C (212-degree F) steam
at atmospheric pressure.
If you've ever rearranged your baking pans by sticking your hand into a
400-degree F (200-degree C) oven while with only a pot holder, you've
noticed that you can tolerate the heat without much problem for time it
taks you to perform the task. Would you hold your hand for that same
duration over a pot of boiling water? I doubt it -- even though a
thermometer would indicate that the temperature in the water vapor
above the pot to be somewhat less than 100-degrees C (212-degrees F).
"Oven spring" -- the additional rise which many doughs exhibit -- comes
from the last bit of activity of the yeast before the heat of the oven
kills it *and* the expansion of the gas bubbles entrained in the dough
as the dough temperature rises. Once the temperature of the dough
rises to the point where dough is no longer elastic, the structure
forms, and the outer parts of the loaf have become sufficiently
resistant to further expansion, the loaf has taken on its final
shape.
Washes are another matter. They consist of treating the loaf with any
number of things brushed on the surface, before, after, or during the
baking process. Spraying water directly onto the dough will act like
a wash and will smooth the surface of the dough and probably cause some
flowing of the starches in the dough near the surface. If one wants this
kind of effect, it's probably easier to control by lightly brushing the
loaf with water before placing it into the oven. (A very small amount of
cornstarch mixed into the water will work even better to produce an even
shinier crust.)
Someone mentioned that one can leave the loaf in the oven, with the
door open, at the end of the baking process to additionally crisp the
crust. I beleive this works by evaporating moisture from the surface
of the fully-baked loaf as it cools. Similary, cooling in the open
air on a rack will produce a crisper crust than cooling on the same
rack under the traditional "clean cotton towel" which slows the loss
of moisture. (Notice that commercial French bread comes in a paper
wrapper, not a plastic bag which would entrap moisture migrating
from the center of the bread and would ruin the nice crisp crust.)
I'll be looking forward to hearing how Charlie Sorsby's experiement
with the home-made pressure cooker steam injection system works out.
It sounds like a clever idea. If one does not compromise the
pressure regulator system on the cooker (which would be VERY VERY
DANGEROUS!), one could put a valve in the copper tubing so that one
could inject bursts of steam at the beginning of the baking
process. One would need to keep the pressure cooker regulator and
safety valves operational so that the cooker could be brought up
to its pre-set pressure and maintained at that pressure, ready to
deliver bursts of steam on demand. I'd suggest drilling another
hole in the lid, tapping the hole with a standard thread to
accept a copper fitting, and installing a small valve with a
lever handle at that point. I'm sure that any plumber, auto shop
or machine shop could drill and tap a hole with minimal effort.
I have no idea if the volume of steam that this would generate
would be suffiecient for the intended purpose, but it sure sounds
like it would be worth a try. :)
Cheers,
The Old Bear
Charlie Sorsby
rpm <n...@goaway.com> wrote:
= X-No-Archive: yes
= In article <7hpqg9....@quail.home>, c...@swcp.com wrote:
= >
= >Just a reminder: The steam/moisture doesn't itself create the crisp
= >crust; it keeps the crust from forming during the first fraction of
= >the baking time so that you don't have a crisp crust a quarter of
= >an inch thick... Well, an eighth of an inch, anyway.... Thus,
= >during the remaining baking time, the oven heat is only able to dry
= >out a thin layer and, do, form the thin, crisp, crust layer so
= >preferred.
=
= So if I want a thicker crust I should skip the steam?
That's my understanding.
Here's how I interpret what I've read about it: The steam keeps
the surface of the bread moist during the early parts of baking
and, so, prevents crust formation. Then when the steam goes away,
the surface is able to dry out and, so create a crisp, thin, crust.
My guess is that the thickness of the crust will depend upon what
fraction of the time the oven interior is dry. I'm sure someone
will correct me if I'm wrong.
Note: If the bread is wrapped in such a way as to trap moisture
(e.g. in plastic wrap), moisture will migrate from the inside of
the loaf to the surface and the crust won't stay crisp. At least
that's been my observation. I don't know how the crust will behave
in a highly humid climate--that's one of the reasons that I live
in the southwest: I hate high humidity. :)
Question: I notice that French bread (and similar breads) that
contain only flour, water, yeast, and salt from crisp crusts.
I rarely make breads with oil or shortening in the dough. Do
I infer correctly that presence of such fat will prevent formation
of a crisp crust? Or is the crispness simply removed by brushing
the top with butter or the like? Just curious.
Alan Zelt
In simple layman terms(which I appreciate), the added steam enables the
dough to rise to its fullest potential. When the dough is in contact
with the dry air, it merely bakes, not rises. That is why the first five
minutes are crucial to french breads shape(and openness).
twinky1156
cubes or water onto a pan that's been heated in the oven. If you want a
thicker crust, leave the loaf in the oven for an additional 10 to 15
minutes, with the oven off and oven door ajar.
>
> So if I want a thicker crust I should skip the steam?
>
> Tim
>
Charlie Sorsby
= Yep, we're saying different things. I stongly disagree with the statement
= "The steam/moisture doesn't itself create the crisp crust; it keeps the
= crust from forming during the first fraction of the baking time."
"..., where the injection of low-pressure steam helps the crust to
expand like the surface of a balloon. This creates the thin,
crispy crust so characteristic of Parisian-style baguettes."
Joe Ortiz, _The Village Baker_, p61.
"In U.S. bakeries and French boulangeries, steam under pressure
is shot into the oven moments before the loaves are put in, and
again at intervals while the bread expands under the heat. The
steam *prevents the crust from forming too quickly* and allows
full oven-spring enabling the loaf to swell to maximum size.
Approximately 15 minutes of the allotted bake time is required.
The steam is turned off, the oven heat becomes dry and gives color
to the thin, *late-forming* crust." [Emphasis added.]
Bernard Clayton, Jr., _The Complete Book of
Breads_, p264
= As I understand the physics of it, the steam-filled oven transfers heat
= much more quickly to the baking bread than a dry oven. Professional
= ovens inject steam which is under pressure and hence is "super-heated"
= to a temperature above that of ordinary 100-degree C (212-degree F) steam
= at atmospheric pressure.
I don't question that steam may transfer heat; I question that
moisture (moisture meaning water or water vapor of any kind
or at any temperature) can make something crisp.
What happens if you take a loaf of bread with the desired crisp
crust and you steam it (in the oven or anywhere else)?
= If you've ever rearranged your baking pans by sticking your hand into a
= 400-degree F (200-degree C) oven while with only a pot holder, you've
= noticed that you can tolerate the heat without much problem for time it
= taks you to perform the task.
Largely because as soon as you open the oven door, convection
causes the 400-degree air in the oven to mix with the room-
temperature air from outside and, so, the air in which you stick
your hand is no where near 400 degrees.
Take a plastic container (e.g. Tupper Ware). Put it on a piece of
foil. Place both in the 400-degree oven and allow the temperature
to return to 400 degrees. Time how long it takes to melt. How
long would you keep your hand in dry heat able to melt plastic?
= Would you hold your hand for that same
= duration over a pot of boiling water? I doubt it -- even though a
= thermometer would indicate that the temperature in the water vapor
= above the pot to be somewhat less than 100-degrees C (212-degrees F).
Not the same thing at all. Indeed, the steam near the surface of
boiling water (at normal atmospheric pressure) is almost exactly
at the boiling point of water at that pressure. One of our labs
for general chemistry involved calibrating our thermometer. To do
so it was suspended, not in the boiling water but in the steam
immediately above it. But I digress.... In any event, try it and
see. Holding one's hand sufficiently above the surface of a pot of
boiling water isn't the same thing as holding it in the jet of
steam released by suddenly opening the lid of a pot of boiling
water. I should think that the mixing with ambient air and
consequent cooling would apply there (above the pot) as well as in
the oven. That's why the steam becomes visible--the water
molecules are cooled by the ambient air and condense to form water
droplets, still small, but bigger than water molecules and, so,
visible.
A better comparison would be to hold your hand within the same
distance of a metal surface that is *kept* at 400 degrees[1] and
the surface of boiling water. [1]Remember that the oven walls are
cooled by the inrush of room-temperature air when you open the oven
door--just not as quickly as the air in the oven.
But, to the person who asked if dispensing with the steam would
produce a thicker crust: Why not try a loaf each way and see if it
produces what you're looking for? But remember that the kind of
crust is also dependent upon the kind of bread. French bread (or
its relatives) has a different kind of crust to a bread with all
kinds of extra ingredients like fat, milk, etc. So to compare, you
must compare two loaves made from the same recipe.
It seems to me (and is affirmed by the two quotations I've
included earlier in this post) that you'll get less oven spring
in a dry oven because the surface of the loaf will dry out more
quickly. In the dry climate where I live, just leaving a loaf
of unbaked bread on the counter (even covered with the proverbial
towel) will allow the surface to dry out and form a crust, albeit
not the kind of a crust desired. It's hard to get much oven spring
when the crust has already partly formed because the surface of the
dough has dried out even before baking. *A* crust will begin
forming sooner in a dry oven than in a moist one just as it does on
the counter in the dry climate where I live than it will where the
humidity is 99%.
But, again, try it both ways and see what happens. But, if you
do, try to eliminate as far as possible all other variables. (E.g.
don't let one loaf sit, unbaked, while you bake the other because,
at the surface and within, the second loaf will be different when
you put it in the oven. Or do the experiment twice, alternating
which process is done first--steam first in one experiment, no
steam first in the next.) Ideally, keep everything the same for
both loaves except for the one variable you're trying to test.
In summary, my point was not that the steam isn't important to the
thin, crisp crust but that the steam (moisture) did not itself make
the crust crisp. In support of that statement, I repeat: Take a
loaf of bread with an already crisp crust and steam it.
I'm really not trying to be argumentive; I just cannot see how
moisture can make anything crisp.
[...]
Charlie Sorsby
= with the home-made pressure cooker steam injection system works out.
= It sounds like a clever idea. If one does not compromise the
= pressure regulator system on the cooker (which would be VERY VERY
= DANGEROUS!),
Yes! Thank you for saying this as I should have done.
= one could put a valve in the copper tubing so that one
= could inject bursts of steam at the beginning of the baking
= process.
Initially at least, I don't plan anything so elaborate. Just a
piece of metal tubing from the pressure cooker through the oven
vent with continuous steam injection during, say, the first ten
minutes of baking time and then removal or the pressure cooker and
tubing. That should leave steam in the oven for a few more minutes
until it dissipates.
This way, the pressure cooker isn't really acting as a pressure
cooker but rather just a boiler/steam-generator since the tubing
is open all the time and the pressure shouldn't build much, if any,
above ambient. Kind of like the pressure cookers that use the
weight-type regulator when you leave the weight off and allow the
steam to vent to the outside.
= One would need to keep the pressure cooker regulator and
= safety valves operational so that the cooker could be brought up
= to its pre-set pressure and maintained at that pressure, ready to
= deliver bursts of steam on demand. I'd suggest drilling another
= hole in the lid, tapping the hole with a standard thread to
= accept a copper fitting, and installing a small valve with a
= lever handle at that point. I'm sure that any plumber, auto shop
= or machine shop could drill and tap a hole with minimal effort.
= I have no idea if the volume of steam that this would generate
= would be suffiecient for the intended purpose, but it sure sounds
= like it would be worth a try. :)
Thanks for the ideas. I may work into this much elaboration
eventually but, as mentioned above, much simpler to start. I'm
pretty lazy..... ;)
The Old Bear
>From: c...@swcp.com (Charlie Sorsby)
>Newsgroups: rec.food.baking
>Subject: Re: French Bread Success
>Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:08:23 -0600
>
>The Old Bear <old...@arctos.com> wrote:
>[...]
>= Yep, we're saying different things. I stongly disagree with the statement
>= "The steam/moisture doesn't itself create the crisp crust; it keeps the
>= crust from forming during the first fraction of the baking time."
>
>"..., where the injection of low-pressure steam helps the crust to
>expand like the surface of a balloon. This creates the thin,
>crispy crust so characteristic of Parisian-style baguettes."
> Joe Ortiz, _The Village Baker_, p61.
>
> "In U.S. bakeries and French boulangeries, steam under pressure
>is shot into the oven moments before the loaves are put in, and
>again at intervals while the bread expands under the heat. The
>steam *prevents the crust from forming too quickly* and allows
>full oven-spring enabling the loaf to swell to maximum size.
>Approximately 15 minutes of the allotted bake time is required.
>The steam is turned off, the oven heat becomes dry and gives color
>to the thin, *late-forming* crust." [Emphasis added.]
> Bernard Clayton, Jr., _The Complete Book of
> Breads_, p264
Charley:
It's an interesting point and indeed may be an important part of the
french bread phenomenon. Indeed, I own both of these excellent
bread books and, in no way, presume to be any authority even approaching
Mssrs. Ortiz and Clayton.
>= As I understand the physics of it, the steam-filled oven transfers heat
>= much more quickly to the baking bread than a dry oven. Professional
>= ovens inject steam which is under pressure and hence is "super-heated"
>= to a temperature above that of ordinary 100-degree C (212-degree F) steam
>= at atmospheric pressure.
>
>I don't question that steam may transfer heat; I question that
>moisture (moisture meaning water or water vapor of any kind
>or at any temperature) can make something crisp.
I don't think that the moisture makes the bread crisp... I think that it
accelerates the baking process by transferring heat to the loaf more
rapidly. Consider the opposite situation, where you bake at a lower
temperature for a longer time -- and you get a thicker crust by the time
that the center of the bread is done.
>What happens if you take a loaf of bread with the desired crisp
>crust and you steam it (in the oven or anywhere else)?
But were not talking about steaming bread that is already baked.
>= If you've ever rearranged your baking pans by sticking your hand into a
>= 400-degree F (200-degree C) oven while with only a pot holder, you've
>= noticed that you can tolerate the heat without much problem for time it
>= taks you to perform the task.
>
>Largely because as soon as you open the oven door, convection
>causes the 400-degree air in the oven to mix with the room-
>temperature air from outside and, so, the air in which you stick
>your hand is no where near 400 degrees.
Not true. You can check this with a fast-responding oven thermometer.
It will fall but not plummet when you open the door to re-arrange
your baking pans.
>Take a plastic container (e.g. Tupper Ware). Put it on a piece of
>foil. Place both in the 400-degree oven and allow the temperature
>to return to 400 degrees. Time how long it takes to melt. How
>long would you keep your hand in dry heat able to melt plastic?
Exactly... the phenomenon you're observing is the rate at which air
transfers heat to the plastic.
>= Would you hold your hand for that same
>= duration over a pot of boiling water? I doubt it -- even though a
>= thermometer would indicate that the temperature in the water vapor
>= above the pot to be somewhat less than 100-degrees C (212-degrees F).
>
>Not the same thing at all. Indeed, the steam near the surface of
>boiling water (at normal atmospheric pressure) is almost exactly
>at the boiling point of water at that pressure. One of our labs
>for general chemistry involved calibrating our thermometer. To do
>so it was suspended, not in the boiling water but in the steam
>immediately above it. But I digress.... In any event, try it and
>see. Holding one's hand sufficiently above the surface of a pot of
>boiling water isn't the same thing as holding it in the jet of
>steam released by suddenly opening the lid of a pot of boiling
>water. I should think that the mixing with ambient air and
>consequent cooling would apply there (above the pot) as well as in
>the oven. That's why the steam becomes visible--the water
>molecules are cooled by the ambient air and condense to form water
>droplets, still small, but bigger than water molecules and, so,
>visible.
No arguement about the temperature at which both steam and water
co-exist at one atmosphere. But the "jet of steam" you describe,
unless you are talking about a pressure cooker, is pretty much
at one atmosphere.
We're both talking about the specific heat of water (vapor)
compared with dry air. As you know, specific heat is a measure
of amount of energy necessary to raise the temperature of
something a fixed amount. For example, calories per gram per
degree. The specific heat of water is a heck of a lot higher
than that of dry air.
>A better comparison would be to hold your hand within the same
>distance of a metal surface that is *kept* at 400 degrees[1] and
>the surface of boiling water. [1]Remember that the oven walls are
>cooled by the inrush of room-temperature air when you open the oven
>door--just not as quickly as the air in the oven.
>But, to the person who asked if dispensing with the steam would
>produce a thicker crust: Why not try a loaf each way and see if it
>produces what you're looking for? But remember that the kind of
>crust is also dependent upon the kind of bread. French bread (or
>its relatives) has a different kind of crust to a bread with all
>kinds of extra ingredients like fat, milk, etc. So to compare, you
>must compare two loaves made from the same recipe.
>
>It seems to me (and is affirmed by the two quotations I've
>included earlier in this post) that you'll get less oven spring
>in a dry oven because the surface of the loaf will dry out more
>quickly.
Yes, all things being equal, that's probably true. There are, of
course, other factors which affect oven spring including the
activity of the yeast before the heat ends its life, the amount of
gas already entrained in the dough, the elasticity of the dough,
whether or not the top of the loaf is slashed (docked), and, of
course, the temperature of the oven.
>In the dry climate where I live, just leaving a loaf of unbaked
>bread on the counter (even covered with the proverbial towel) will
>allow the surface to dry out and form a crust, albeit not the kind
>of a crust desired. It's hard to get much oven spring when the crust
>has already partly formed because the surface of the dough has dried
>out even before baking.
Again, this is hard to predict. If the dough surface does not dry
out, you're likely to get "shelling" -- a separation of the crust
from the web of the bread. If it dries out a lot, it may split as
the underlying dough expands -- or, as you suggest, it may be
sufficiently hard to prevent oven spring.
Those kinds of interacting forces are what make baking interesting,
no? :)
>*A* crust will begin forming sooner in a dry oven than in a
>moist one just as it does on the counter in the dry climate where
>I live than it will where the humidity is 99%.
Sounds reasonable but I really don't know that. My uncertainty is
compounded by the fact that the "crust" of dried out dough is not
the same as the browned crust which forms in the baking process.
A lot of other stuff is going on in forming a baked crust.
>But, again, try it both ways and see what happens. But, if you
>do, try to eliminate as far as possible all other variables. (E.g.
>don't let one loaf sit, unbaked, while you bake the other because,
>at the surface and within, the second loaf will be different when
>you put it in the oven. Or do the experiment twice, alternating
>which process is done first--steam first in one experiment, no
>steam first in the next.) Ideally, keep everything the same for
>both loaves except for the one variable you're trying to test.
>
>In summary, my point was not that the steam isn't important to the
>thin, crisp crust but that the steam (moisture) did not itself make
>the crust crisp. In support of that statement, I repeat: Take a
>loaf of bread with an already crisp crust and steam it.
A crisp crust turned into a soggy crisp crust is not the same as
a soft crust.
>I'm really not trying to be argumentive; I just cannot see how
>moisture can make anything crisp.
It can't... it just accelerates the baking process... the crust
forms later in the process after the steam is gone. When you
bake a loaf without steam, it also forms its crust later in
the baking process than in the first few minutes.
I am not disagreeing with your point that the surface of the
dough is kept from drying out by the steam; I am only asserting
that one of the purposes of the steam is to transfer heat to
the dough more rapidly at the beginning of the baking process.
One last experiment... go into a "dry heat" sauna for a few
minutes before throwing some water on the hot rocks in the sauna.
As the burst of water vapor is released into the air in the
sauna, it will suddenly feel like a burst of heat. And, yes,
some of this has to do with slowing the evaporation of the
perspiration on your skin, but keep in mind that the surface
of your moist dough is also evaporating water into the sauna-like
oven. But most of the effect is due to the rapid transfer of
heat from the water vapor.
BTW, I envy your being in New Mexico. Our household are big
southwestern food aficionados and, where we live, the growing
season is too short to produce much more than mediocre chiles
and we need to use an electric heater placed under the ristras
to get them to dry out before they mold. I keep telling MrsBear
that I want to retire to New Mexico, but I think I am going
to have to settle for Colorado because most of her family lives
there.
Cheers,
The Old Bear
The Old Bear
>From: c...@swcp.com (Charlie Sorsby)
>Newsgroups: rec.food.baking
>Subject: Re: French Bread Success
>Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:28:19 -0600
>
>The Old Bear <old...@arctos.com> wrote:
>=
>= I'll be looking forward to hearing how Charlie Sorsby's experiement
>= with the home-made pressure cooker steam injection system works out.
> . . .
>Initially at least, I don't plan anything so elaborate. Just a
>piece of metal tubing from the pressure cooker through the oven
>vent with continuous steam injection during, say, the first ten
>minutes of baking time and then removal or the pressure cooker and
>tubing. That should leave steam in the oven for a few more minutes
>until it dissipates.
> . . .
>Thanks for the ideas. I may work into this much elaboration
>eventually but, as mentioned above, much simpler to start. I'm
>pretty lazy..... ;)
Yup. Like my plans to build a dough proofing box using an old
picnic cooler with a couple of lightbulbs as a heat source and
an old electric heat thermostat to maintain 90 degrees.
Someday. Someday.
Cheers,
The Old Bear
Bob Becker
"twinky1156" <bookh...@hotmail.comREMOVE> wrote in message
news:tj5lt81...@corp.supernews.com...
> If you want a crackly crisper crust, use the steam approach by
putting ice
> cubes or water onto a pan that's been heated in the oven. If
you want a
> thicker crust, leave the loaf in the oven for an additional 10
to 15
> minutes, with the oven off and oven door ajar.
I have two loaves of French bread rising as we type.
I'll try the ice cube method into a hot tray rather than a
tray of water in the lower rack and report back here.
Charlie Sorsby
crossed purposes. I don't think we really disagree very much;
we're just describing things differently and each seems to be
misunderstanding the other.
In article <oldbear.88...@arctos.com>,
The Old Bear <old...@arctos.com> wrote:
[...]
= No arguement about the temperature at which both steam and water
= co-exist at one atmosphere. But the "jet of steam" you describe,
= unless you are talking about a pressure cooker, is pretty much
= at one atmosphere.
Point of clarification: I was talking about an ordinary cooking
pot with a moderately tight fitting lid. When you lift the lid
just a crack on one side, a jet of steam emerges. Not high
pressure steam but slightly above atmospheric--any reasonably heavy
and snug-fitting lid will cause internal pressure to be *slightly*
above atmospheric pressure. I've been burned (not seriously) by
not tilting the lid slightly away from the non-lid hand while
removing the lid. Ditto--and I don't know the cure for this--when
removing plastic film from a container that has been microwaved.
= We're both talking about the specific heat of water (vapor)
= compared with dry air. As you know, specific heat is a measure
= of amount of energy necessary to raise the temperature of
= something a fixed amount. For example, calories per gram per
= degree. The specific heat of water is a heck of a lot higher
= than that of dry air.
No argument.
[...]
= >It seems to me (and is affirmed by the two quotations I've
= >included earlier in this post) that you'll get less oven spring
= >in a dry oven because the surface of the loaf will dry out more
= >quickly.
=
= Yes, all things being equal, that's probably true. There are, of
Will you go for "all else being equal"? :) If all things are
equal, there'll be no difference of any kind. ;)
And, of course, if all else is not equal, there's no point in even
trying to make any sort of comparison for the results will be
totally uninterprable. One won't know what change in outcome
resulted from which unequal parameter.
Whenever one compares the effect of changing one variable, it is
essential that all others be kept equal.
= course, other factors which affect oven spring including the
= activity of the yeast before the heat ends its life, the amount of
= gas already entrained in the dough, the elasticity of the dough,
= whether or not the top of the loaf is slashed (docked), and, of
= course, the temperature of the oven.
Of course.
[...]
= >In summary, my point was not that the steam isn't important to the
= >thin, crisp crust but that the steam (moisture) did not itself make
= >the crust crisp. In support of that statement, I repeat: Take a
= >loaf of bread with an already crisp crust and steam it.
=
= A crisp crust turned into a soggy crisp crust is not the same as
= a soft crust.
Of course not. My point is that crispness and moisture are
mutually exclusive conditions.
= >I'm really not trying to be argumentive; I just cannot see how
= >moisture can make anything crisp.
=
= It can't... it just accelerates the baking process... the crust
= forms later in the process after the steam is gone. When you
I don't dispute that the steam may well do that.
= bake a loaf without steam, it also forms its crust later in
= the baking process than in the first few minutes.
Quite so. But my claim is that without steam, while it doesn't
begin immediately, it does begin sooner than with steam. That the
steam delays the drying out process that produces the crispness
and, so, reduces the distance that that crispness penetrates from
the surface into the body of the loaf. But I've been wrong before.
That the steam may transfer the heat to the loaf better than dry
air may well be so. But steam, being moisture, cannot produce
crispness (as I believe you agreed elsewhere). Whether the steam
improves oven spring or any other early-phase activities is not at
issue.
My point is that crispness will not occur in a moist environment.
It's as simple as that. As you said above, the crust forms later
in the baking process. But, it seems to me, the sooner the surface
can begin drying out, the deeper that crispness will penetrate,
thus the thicker the crust.
My contention is that the steam delays formation of the crust so
that it doesn't form a *thick*, hard crust. Can it also prepare
the surface of the dough in some way to form a desired crust?
Sure. I don't question that either.
All I said was that the steam doesn't create the crisp crust. I
guess I must have said that very unclearly.
There's a difference between setting up conditions to permit
something else (the dry heat during the later minutes of baking) to
form a thin, crisp, crust and actually creating that crust.
My claim was (and remains) that it is the dry heat during the later
portion of the baking time that actually produces the crisp crust.
My *opinion* is that the steam, by providing a moist environment,
delays formation of that crust so that it will be *thin* as well as
crisp. Corollary to that, if the steam is omitted, the crust will
begin forming earlier and, so, will be *thicker* as well as crisp.
= I am not disagreeing with your point that the surface of the
= dough is kept from drying out by the steam; I am only asserting
= that one of the purposes of the steam is to transfer heat to
= the dough more rapidly at the beginning of the baking process.
May well be. I'm only talking about it's effect on that (usually)
highly desirable *thin*, *crisp* crust.
= One last experiment... go into a "dry heat" sauna for a few
= minutes before throwing some water on the hot rocks in the sauna.
= As the burst of water vapor is released into the air in the
= sauna, it will suddenly feel like a burst of heat. And, yes,
= some of this has to do with slowing the evaporation of the
= perspiration on your skin, but keep in mind that the surface
= of your moist dough is also evaporating water into the sauna-like
= oven. But most of the effect is due to the rapid transfer of
= heat from the water vapor.
Sorry--I don't have access to a sauna of any variety, dry or
moist...
= BTW, I envy your being in New Mexico. Our household are big
= southwestern food aficionados and, where we live, the growing
= season is too short to produce much more than mediocre chiles
= and we need to use an electric heater placed under the ristras
= to get them to dry out before they mold. I keep telling MrsBear
= that I want to retire to New Mexico, but I think I am going
= to have to settle for Colorado because most of her family lives
= there.
I can understand that! Incidentally, I just heard on the news an
hour or so ago that last year was a bumper year for the chile crop
in New Mexico.
Incidentally, the short growing season is a function of altitude as
well as latitude so not all of NM is conducive to chile production.
Are you in CO now or is that just where you'll retire to?
Ophelia
"The Old Bear" <old...@arctos.com> wrote in message
news:oldbear.88...@arctos.com...
Hi Bear and Charley
Far be it for me to dare to comment on the great plans *grin* but could you
not a) use a plant propogator in some way for your proofing box.. and b) a
simple rubber tube attached to the spout of a kettle for the steam?
Ophelia runssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
xx
>